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richardmurray

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Posts posted by richardmurray

  1. @ProfD

    well... the heritage of black DOSers claiming, in my opinion historically unwarranted, a huge need for personal accountability amongst its members predates the usa, and is a tenet or pillar to the individualism that is of a majority appeal in the modern black populace in the USA.

    The black leaders in the USA behind the million man march, individualist themselves, got what they wanted in the future, a black populace in the usa  least motivated to positive collective action in majority. 

     

     

  2. @ProfD

    10 minutes ago, ProfD said:

    Almost 30 years ago, the Million Man March was a moment in time that Black men across all tribes showed up in one place to receive a message. 

    I was in school, my father and a few uncles or community brothers were there. I remember asking them about it. 

    When I think about what they said and the Individualism in the majority of the  Black DOS populace I embrace now  I see where things were inevitably negative. 

    16 minutes ago, ProfD said:

    IMO, as men, we didn't maintain the energy in codifying an agenda and goals that would have created strategic alliances among Black tribes throughout America.😎

    Your correct, the march failed to have a collective agenda. I will be blunt and say that the black men around harlem whom I knew went, including my father, said that it lacked a communal agenda. 

    But I want to look at the million man march from where black people were at the time and where black people are now. 

    It is cheap hindsight but, the million man march had two elements.

    1. The black men who positively, happpily, engagedly, collectively, communally, came together to meet at Washington DC

    2. The black leadership who made the call and presented themselves to the Black men arriving from all corners. 

     

    The situation

    1.The black men who came were riding the last gasps of  communal energy from the DOS community in 1865. It embraced all black men, was pan black. Black men helped each other get to Washington DC. But, Black men going to DC were expecting collective guidance. 

    2. The black leaders who waited were all thinking of themselves , as individuals or tied to a specific group which leads to only one message, personal accountability. Which is a tenet of individualism. But offers nothing for collective guidance. 

     

    The result

    1. The Black men who using collective energy came for communal guidance , left disenchanted with communalism, and were given an uninspiring or dysfunctional personal accountability message that they took back to their homes. Comprehend, the black men who came to the million man march wasn't the black men in jail, wasn't the black men absent money, wasn't the black men absent ambition or outlook. The black men who came to the million man march , like my father, were all black men who had some positive level of personal accountability or they wouldn't had been there. That vibe of individualism i think seeped through the black male populace in the usa, unfortunately. Telling a large group of people freely being positive as they collect, individually making the effort to lead into a collective path that they are in need of individual accountability is a sinful act. [ and as a historical note, the womens march did the same thing... instead of guiding women it was a preaching about individual suffering]

    2. Black leaders who helped organize it got what they wanted. They didn't want to guide the present black male collective to anything positive , they wanted to preach to each individual in said collective a false notion of individual impotency. They succeeded and that ended the last great black moment. When Barrack Obama became president the only constant among black people was it has no communal relevancy. That is individualism. When Kamala Harris ran I remember Black people in the street were totally disconnected. Obama used up the last of that. Kamala maybe didn't comprehend that from the Million Man March to Her campaign the black populace in the usa has grown even more individualistic. [Hillary Clinton suffered the women's issue in the usa, just for the record]. and it helps, when you look at Letitia James/ Mayor Eric Adams. Black elected officials have no need to have a black agenda because the individualism in the black populace doesn't believe in it. That was what the leaders during the Million Man March in my opinion worked to get. 

     

    So, I concur to you about the momentum of the Million Man March being derailed but the reason it was derailed was designed by Black Leadership itself. 

    Individualism doesn't require leaders to be positively implemented cause it relies on individuals while it requires those in a position to lead to spout individual mantra to break the communal spirit in any group, for better or worse. 

    Communalism doesn't require leaders to be gods or heroes to be positively implemented while it requires leaders to be effective in messaging or purposeful to group improvement to be positively implemented. 

     

    So looking forward positively, black communalism in the usa is strongest in some small tribes. I argue, any black person, including myself, looking to positive community in the black populace in the usa at least, has to focus on small populaces in the black populace in the usa. 

     

  3. @ProfD

    20 minutes ago, ProfD said:

    True.  I believe the system of racism white supremacy will rear up in an ugly way and force Black folks regardless of their individualism or tribe to close ranks.

    definitely possible, we will see

    21 minutes ago, ProfD said:

    That is the prism of wisdom through which I've been operating for several decades.😉

    of course you have:) haha the second you came out the womb:) 

     

     

  4. @Chevdove @ProfD great dialog between you two. 

    @ProfD

    2 hours ago, ProfD said:

    there are many tribes among Black folks. 

     

    As a result, Black folks have no agenda or goals in overthrowing the system of racism white supremacy.

    Yes, the black populace in the usa, largely because of Black DOSers have an individualism which allows for a much larger range of agendas to exist and thus is harder to bind together. But on the other hand, really gives black people flexibility which has been useful. 

    @Chevdove

    1 hour ago, Chevdove said:

    I think that some of us do not believe that we need leaders, but I do. 

    I've heard some of us passionately speak against the need for a leader and like @richardmurray pointed out we have too many tribes not working together. 

    Not think , you know, and not just believe, insist they know. 

    Individualism is huge in the Black DOS community. Frederick Douglass was an individualist. Many of the other leaders in Black history were tied to specific communities. Garvey/Malcolm were rarities, both were pan Black, they weren't tied to a specific church or religion and pushed to get various black people together. This is the reason why Malcolm's split from the Nation of Islam was inevitable. He love the nation of islam but he didn't think it was the be all end all to black people. His garveyite father never left him in that sense, it is about Pan Black and no black person should be forced into one tribe in the village. This is why Garvey reached out to yella WEB DUbois, who treated garvey terribly. Dubois was tied to the community of europhilic blacks. They speak french and listen to european orchestral music,  you know:) 

    So Individualism comes from this, it is the dominant, most common, DOS tradition. And I have recently:) come to a greater acceptance of this. If I think on my words in this very forum, i realized it years ago but accepting it took years:) 

    But going forward, Individualism by default is against a group leader, by default. Chevdove. So as I said to Profd, going forward, I accept the Individualism in the Black DOS populace in the usa. I am a communalist, i always will be, I was as a child. But that doesn't mean most black people have to be. 

    And when you look at Black elected officials, black entertainers, the black one percent, so many of them don't act in a black group, you see Individualism is high as a culture among black people with the most money or influence in the usa. So I argue, and I will try to do the following in my economic corner, and that is to embrace the majority of individualism in the black populace in the usa in assessing the financial, and current events. 

    See your people for who they are, not what you want them to be. And then see how to better them through who they are. I live in a land as a minority , a black nationalist, in a minority, black people in the usa. I have been unable to accept the black populace in the usa today for what it is, because individualism like that is uncomfortable for me. I grew up in a highly positive black communal environment. I am not used to the environments which i think make black individualism more useful or prominant. I think about black people i went to college with who were raised around whites. Who parents were part of religious groups they detest. Or come from countries that they love but don't align with idealogoically. So many black people need individualism growing up. To be the lone black kid in school, to be the black relative not part of the church, to be from the black town in the caribbean or africa and not agree with how they do things there. I am accepting, at least, I will try to:) 

     

  5. @ProfD

    19 minutes ago, ProfD said:

    It doesn't make sense for Black folks to resort to violence in the absence of an agenda or goal. I'm not advocating aggressive violence.

    Yes, absent a collective goal. Though maybe the collective goal for black dosers is an individual goal. 

    Maybe most black DOSers in the usa do have a similar agenda, which even makes sense based on black homes and black leaders in the past. I suggest, absent any true proof, a majority of black dosers in the usa in the year 2025 have the same goal or agenda; said agenda or goal is individual aspirations.

    What say you?  I have thought about this.

     

    So I will have to adjust the economic corner post I have planned, but for now on I will try to cognize the two types of tribes in the black populace in the usa, and speak on the economic corner from the two different tribe types agenda/goals.

     

    The largest tribe, quantity wise, DOSers with its Individual Aspirations.

     

    All the smaller tribes  , who have communal agendas/goals with variances. They all tend to utilize individual pathways made by DOSers.

    • The first set of smaller tribes, quantity wise, modern immigrant: Jamaicans, Nigerians,Aborigine. They tend to send money overseas to their country of descendence. Tend to be part of focused communal activities through community centers, nothing grand or expansive. 
    • The second set of smaller tribes, quantity wise, of First People some call Native American[black seminoles or others] Their primary communal activities are in helping their reservations or paying for legal services to get recognition as indigenous in the usa. 
    • The third set of smaller tribes, quantity wise, these are cultural groups mostly DOSer: Nation of Islam/Beta Israel[the guys that yell at working black women ]/Black Jews[accepted by white jews, i knew someone from them, they have been around in harlem for a long time]/Black Panthers/Black Nationalist/Garveyites... These groups tend to not have a specific geographic relationship or a status need like the other two , and usually are, not always, very restrictive to membership, which aids in their communal activity, but none expand well in the black populace in the usa. 

     

    And the individual aspirations agenda of the DOSers influences most of the smaller tribes.

    • Women from African or LGBTQ+ from the Caribbean smaller tribes tend to embrace the DOSers Individual Aspirations mandate because while they like their small community it tends to relate to them negatively or restrictively whereas the DOSer agenda allows for them to breath.
    • Since before the USA was born , black first people have existed in plain sight, alot of times, not making a grandiose of their culture, disliking non black first peoples while allowed to be among DOSers with the Individual Agenda/Goal. 
    • The NAtion of Islam or Black Jews or similar tribes tend to not be influenced by the DOSer individual agenda while they don't embrace Black individuals who don't fit all of their criteria. So it is balanced.

     

    I am a member of a smaller tribe in the third set. But yeah, our dialog has made me realize, the individual is the communal agenda/goal for a majority of Black DOSers, sequentially why it appears poorly when judged by the activities of smaller tribes who have a collective communal goal. JAmaicans for example have an investment but it isn't about Black it is about Jamaican. The jamaicans and trinidadiand and haitians in NYC can come together for the west indian day parade but usually do not financially invest in each other, and don't invest in the various african. The various african can invest in mosque or churches but rarely invest in fiscal activities together.And the DOSer individual mandate as the majority populace allows for all the smaller tribes activities to be embraced under the Individual Agenda/goal. Individualism advantage for Black DOSers as a philosophy is it, allows for all actions under it with no demand for communal quality. Communal quality is merely an after effect, not a mandatory. 

  6. @ProfD

    9 hours ago, ProfD said:

    I thought the story of David and Goliath meant something.  A slingshot and a rock.🤣

    :) well done, good fun, funny how bullied children never think to use the story:)

     

    I will say like many stories in the book it came from propoganda is amazing, the philistines had a smaller kingdom to the jews. The irony is that goliath's people were the minority and david's was the majority:)

    10 hours ago, ProfD said:

    Million dollar question.  Not very well organized.

    And for blacks who are willing to commit violence in the usa not an simple idea. The IRA in defense always had a single, straightforward goal that most irish in ireland wanted even if only a few were willing to die for it, and that is a free ireland from england.

    What straightforward goal do most blacks in the usa want even if most blacks in the usa are unwilling to die for it? I have no idea. You?

    10 hours ago, ProfD said:

    Right.  White folks are double-dipping.  They enjoy the privileges of being white.  White women get minority contracts.

    yeah.

     

    10 hours ago, ProfD said:

    Black folks have been devoid of real leadership for quite some time. 

     

    The Black folk speaking on our behalf are stuck in the old mentality of begging white folks for opportunities.😎

    yeah , why don't you lead Profd?:) you can do it

  7. @ProfD

    1 hour ago, ProfD said:

    I wrote that we are not equipped, prepared or encouraged to do so. 

    ok, well no minority in any country  has ever been in human history equipped, prepared, encouraged.

    1 hour ago, ProfD said:

    The reality is that as long as Black folks are defenseless, it's easier to destroy anything we build. 

    well black people in the minority anywhere as any minority anywhere are defenseless.

     

    1 hour ago, ProfD said:

    Black folks definitely aren't like the Muslims who are willing to die fighting imperialism.

    which black folks to which muslims? Are you talking about blacks who live in the jungles of northern south america, descended from blacks who killed to get out of slavery, rejecting the white world outside? or are you relating them to muslims in europe who went to oxford and have white christian german wives or girlfriends working for the world bank and united nations?   

    Some Blacks folks are willing to die fighting imperialism, most are not. Many muslims are willing to sell out to the christian empires, but not all.

    Remember, the IRA, was only a few hundred people. Most irish people in ireland weren't willing to die fighting imperialism. Those that did made one hell of a statement. 

    The question is how organized are the blacks willing to die fighting imperialism among themselves, not in connection to other blacks or non blacks. 

    Most black homes preach nonviolence so it makes sense nonviolence is predominant. 

    1 hour ago, ProfD said:

    It would be harder for white folks to destroy a place like they did in Tulsa. 

    I wish I could say I was certain this was true. 

    1 hour ago, ProfD said:

    Of course, I'm not accusing you of lying because we're all entitled to our opinions.

    It is no shame to be accused of lying when it is the truth.  Opinion means an idea, but the opinion is fact in hindsight thus the opinion is a lie until proven elsewise. 

     

    1 hour ago, ProfD said:

    I think you're missing my point. 

     

    I'm not suggesting that other groups needed DEI or civil rights.  They may not have asked for it. 

     

    I believe those other groups received the benefits of DEI and civil rights as a slap in the face of Black folks.😎

    I see, more and more white people receive all the benefits of being white, the majority, in the usa . Yeah , the black leadership definitely slapped themselves, considering DEI is going the way of the Civil Rights Act oo 1963.Why did Black Leadership try the same thing ? 

  8. @ProfD 

    21 hours ago, ProfD said:

    We're supposed to learn from history in order to do better in the future.

    i think all humans being learn but the question is what do they learn? 

    I think in our village, we often don't comprehend what each other has learned or worse, we want to change what each other has learned. 

    21 hours ago, ProfD said:

    Up to present, Black folks are not equipped, prepared or encouraged to defend themselves.

    yes, plus Black folks in the usa do not live in isolation, never been isolated, never been segregated. Black people in large parts of the caribbean or africa or some parts of south america or asia live in black countries. the usa isn't a black country, and thus, defending ourselves in the usa has always come with opposition that is historically insurmountable. Defending a populace has militaristic realities. This is why white jews wanted to make israel, all the money in the world, infrasturcture building, or financial planning,  didn't save them from the white christian majority in germany burning and hacking and  killing once inspired. No minority is ever safe from the majority in any government in human history. Hell 25% of jews in usa were so worried about being exposed in the usa, they didn't want the usa to accept jews from europe. So... you are correct, but please say it all. Your words seem to suggest a minority populace can actually defend itself against a majority, non have ever in humanity, eventually they fall. 

     

    21 hours ago, ProfD said:

    Black folks are investing in the white cities by consuming there. 

     

    If the minority Black population in a white city isn't going to leave it, they might as well build their own infrastructure there and support it. 

     

    There's no shortage of Chinatowns in American cities.  

    Might as well build their own infrastructure there and support it? 

    When I first read those words I admit I felt you had not read anything I wrote, but I comprehend, this is your positivity thing. Ok, 

    White asians are white. When NEw York was new amsterdam, black people were legally enslaved and white asians were allowed to own businesses... It isn't comparative. I accept your positivity, but incomparisons are not financially honest. 

    21 hours ago, ProfD said:

    However you choose to comprehend it, just know that other groups of people benefit from Civil Rights and DEI more than Black folks. 

     

    But, you're right, as white folks are attacking DEI, they're making it seem like a special program mainly for Black folks.  That's not the case.😎

    Well.. this is one of those issues where the truth is up for grabs. You suggest I am lying. and I comprehend that with no malice. I will say, only hindsight will truly prove who is correct in their assessment. 

    I am not speaking about non blacks attacking DEI, I am speaking about whites: women/asians/lgbtq+ having opportunities + advantages blacks didn't or don't have regardless of the civil rights act or DEI that makes the financial relationship they have to such programs different than Black people. To restate, Black people needed the civil rights act/ DEI , but white women/ white asians like the chinese/white jews or muslims/ white latinos didn't need the civil rights act or DEI. Those two legislations helped them but more in getting the main body of whites to embrace them more while killing or harming those programs that blacks needed. 

  9. @ProfD

    9 hours ago, ProfD said:

    Politicians track heavily in telling lies and some of them are still effective in making life better for their constituents. 

    can you name one example? 

    9 hours ago, ProfD said:

    I don't have a problem with history. We should never forget it  Wealth building is a different subject though.  

    I concur that financial investment , whether one fails or succeeds is not assessing history. The former is at its root an act of trade, the latter at its root is a scholarly act. 

    The problem is the use of assessing history in being honest about financial conditions. Trade by default is about a relation of actions. But all actions have precedent, all actions have history. And most importantly to finance, the sequence of actions from the past to today show the ineffective aspects to all actions. 

    For example, many black people talk of Black Tulsa's massacre but what is the financial lesson? 

    What are the facts? 

    Mostly white city, Tulsa in this case

    Black minority in said city

    Black minority is financially acting to all the aspects you champion ProfD , those blacks : pooled their pennies/owned property[their homes+businesses]/dollars circulated in black tulsa more than most white places in the usa/they didn't have an allegiance to either party[the community advocates were about aiding their community regardless of party]

    Black minority in city had all their wealth burned or taken , with the aid of the white state in the union[Oklahoma], plus the aid of the white federal government of the usa. 

    So the lesson is in the ineffectiveness of all the financial actions you suggest when it comes to the health of a black minority populace in a white city. 

    In the year 2025 does not the white city of NEw York, Los Angeles, Chicago, Miami do similar to the white city of Tulsa? yes. so case closed. If you are black in a white city, then why invest in the city indirectly through investing in the black minority? No one can provide one example of black investment in minority in a white city that wasn't unraveled by white governmental power as a majority. Finance didn't have a role to play, that is what history proves in this case.

    I am willing to learn of an example, be proven wrong. But I don't know of one. 

    9 hours ago, ProfD said:

    Interesting how other groups benefit the most from DEI but they're silent as Black foks take the smoke

    When you say "other groups" Are you suggesting white women/white jews/white latinos/white asians/white muslims/white lesbians/white gays? Diversity, Equity, Inclusion didn't give them benefits. The response to DEI by white male hetero christians of european descent benefited said other whites; said response was to kill DEI's aid to blacks and embrace other white groups.

    White women + white jews for me didn't benefit from the civil rights act cause they already were benefitting as whites in the usa before the act,  they benefited from white male response to hinder/kill the civil rights act  of 1965 while embracing other whites more.

    For me, and I comprehend how rare a view I have in the black populace in the usa,  the white minorities or white women don't benefit from DEI or the Civil Rights Act. They benefit from the destruction of said acts. What you call the smoke is the benefit. 

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  11. @ProfD

    47 minutes ago, ProfD said:

    I wouldn't consider a prisoner's dislike of the US as dysfunctional.  Everyone is entitled to their own feelings. 

    well yes, everyone is entitled to their own feelings but t the issue of financial activity, if a person doesn't feel positive about a place, they will not want to invest in said place. 

    49 minutes ago, ProfD said:

    Love has little or nothing to do with building wealth. 

    Well I don't invest in something I think negatively about. And I am 100% certain I am not alone in that. So if I sense an investment connects to a place I dislike or hate I will not invest in it and I think I am not alone.

    53 minutes ago, ProfD said:

    If a tribe chooses to go in that direction, the best another tribe can do is present a better offer.

    Interesting, i thought the best thing a tribe can do for another tribe in the village with an aspect that is elementally oppose is to wish them well, or let them be. Why prosyletize? how do we define freedom? The Black Republican tribe in the usa since the 1960s to modernity has been presenting what they think is a better offer to all other tribes. In my mind it is impossible for all tribes in the black populace of the usa to act analagous, the truth. So, if all tribes are being honest, why preach to each other? 

    1 hour ago, ProfD said:

    Unlike relationships, it seems people will accept lies and other shortcomings as long as leadership is highly effective in making their lives better.😎

    In modernity, currently, I can't think of a lying leader in humanity who has made the lives of the masses that follow them better.

    I think lying leaders succeed when people are used to impotent leaders so the people , correctly, give up on expecting positive quality leadership and allow the one who talks up the passions most , even if it is based on lies. 

    Michelle Obama once said , when they go low we go high, a lie in implication. Again, NYC is full of people usually non black who commit illegalities or crimes every day for financial profit, they are going low. How is going high a balancer or empowering action, financially? If my neighbor is making money criminally + illegally absent penalty, I am not going to make more than them legally or civilly. NYC is proof of that fact every day. When they go low we go lower is the truth. You want to financially succeed you have to go lower. You may not want to hear history Profd but history proves that infinite times. Black DOSers love the moral high ground passion.

    Al Sharpton had a National Action Network speech this january , talking about the need to galvanize for the DEI. And that was a lie in procedure. The DEI movement failed and something new must be tried is the truth. The try again heritage in the black populace in the usa is a failure, that is the truth. and again Black DOSers love the moral high ground nonviolent passion. 

     

  12. @ProfD 

    just for the record I never said black people in prison weren't taking responsibility or accepting consequence. I am saying they are accepting consequence while have a dislike of the usa to the core that is warranted, you think is dysfunctional. 

    8 hours ago, ProfD said:

    The disconnect in our dialog is that I refuse to wallow in blaming our condition on past Black leadership.  We have to be proactive.

    Well, I will say that the modern black populace in the usa is wealthier than ever before and has a growth arc so overall , the financial activities of blacks, all tribes is getting better. For it to be faster most blacks have to love the usa and most blacks don't. 

    8 hours ago, ProfD said:

    IMO, Black folks are lacking strong leadership among the various Black tribes capable of codifying an agenda and plan of action that liberates us from the prison of racism white supremacy.😎

    Yeah, black leadership hasn't recovered well from all the murders in the 1900s. I will say when each tribe admits their reality, it will display some tribes want a merger with the nonblack that will never allow a freedom from non blacks. I think a truthful leadership right now in each tribe is the most functional need. Cause too many tribes have leaders who lie.

  13. @ProfD

    4 hours ago, ProfD said:

    Do you know how many billions of dollars pass through Black folks hands every year?

    I don't know the exact number, but I know it is more than some countries per year. And as I have said, I concur that Black DOSers specifically can invest more. I concur to that. I think we differ on the scale in which black people can invest as well as well the things we should invest in. I don't know where you live, nor am I asking, but I can speak for NYC, which has the largest black community in any city in the usa. Most people in NYC are struggling to pay rent month to month, when i say people i mean Black + Non Black , so I don't know how much can be invested per capita/per head. 

     

    4 hours ago, ProfD said:

    It's not laziness. Ignorance and self-defeatism and victim mentality aren't productive either. 

    Ignorance I concur to you 100% , we need to know more about financial investment individually or as groups. But those other two claims, of self defeatism or victim mentality, when a black man is in prison for selling marijuna while it is now legal, is his negative tone self defeatism , victim mentality, or the truth? I do concur that black individuals or groups in the usa can dwell on negativity, extremely at times.

    But, has not the Black experience in the USA been negative? 

    At least in my view, it has always been negative, always or mostly. Yes, some black people do have positive stories, happy stories. I can think on myself , my upbringing was full of joy, even some opportunity. But, just because I had my rearing or have my life in the usa,which is positive, doesn't mean the majority of black people who are negative are being self defeating or victim mentalist, they are being honest. They like their forebears are in a country that has never been a friend and they don't feel inspired Profd. Yeah, they don't feel inspired. Black people I know offline talk of self defeatigm or victim mentality to the larger black populace and I tell them they are wrong. 

    Again, FRederick Douglass made your point circa one hundred and fifty years ago. and Black people booed him correctly. Yes, Frederick Douglass , formerly enslaved, bought into the USA, like yourself Profd, like many other blacks from that time till now but most Blacks haven't bought into the USA and that is warranted negativity. Yes, it is negative, but it isn't self defeatism or victim mentality, it is a warranted. 

    Someone offline once asked me, the key question, shouldn't a black person in the usa be positively engaged in the usa for themselves? and I answered I can't think of why that should be true. I can accept the choice, I know many black people offline who are doing positive things. Doing as you will respect Profd. I even argue I am one of those people doing positive things. But, I don't think when a black DOSer has quit in the usa, while negative, it isn't unwarranted, it is part of the Black DOSer tradition. 

     

    4 hours ago, ProfD said:

    Black folks know better across the board but have been mentally and physically enslaved to the system of racism white supremacy. 

    well yeah and so has the entire global sports industry, all in humanity . But my point was the environment. You talk of investment but the average musician or athlete has a horde of agents around them, mostly non black WHILE some black, who are leeches and in everything they do support leech behavior. It may seem easy to escape that but it isn't. That is why I do like "He Got Game" by Spike Lee, in terms of showing youth entertainment. It is more than white supremacy, it is one word, slavery. All these people looking to own you and slavery is a very inviting culture in fiscal capitalism cause fiscal capitalism is never better than when you have a slave. 

     

    4 hours ago, ProfD said:

    Slaves need a plan of escape and the resources to remain free.

     

    Black folks can use the money that flows through our hands to secure liberation and build an infrastructure to insure that we are never enslaved again. 

    resources... well that is the trick isn't it, fights over resources was the entire point of the commonly called world wars or cold war whom I call the three  phases of the white european imperial wars. Resources... in all earnest, is a discussion that most involve talk of war and black DOSers definitely don't have that in them. The centuries of the enslavements to whites in the european colonies plus the usa after have made that a hard thing, honestly. 

     

    well..never enslaved again... let me tell you, all things happen again, the white jew will be slaughtered again, blacks will be shackled again... but blacks will also be rulers of all again, nature + history prove, all things come again, they do, you can argue the usa is the return of the roman empire, no not exactly the same, nothing ever is, but yet similar. I am 100% certain black people in the future will have a positive time most black people today can't believe. 

    4 hours ago, ProfD said:

    Unfortunately, the system of racism white supremacy is a sophisticated prison in which Black folks have gotten comfortable to live, work and play.😎

    I have to add a comfort black people themselves wanted. Again, the history of the DOS community is clear, many of our leaders or people when the war between the states ended, preached and guided us into being comfortable as part of embracing the usa. Your word suggest a trick. No, black people were not tricked, black leaders made a choice Profd. The history is there, the black churches voted on what to do during reconstruction when black women were being burned alive by whites. They chose non violence. this is nonviolence. The goal of the nonviolent isn't for a black community that is self sufficient and infrastructured and defending itself, which is why it had and has opponents in the black leadership who wanted and want self sufficiency or infrastructure or defense. The goal of the nonviolent is for a black community that is seamlessly integrated into the non black. Which has been achieved mostly.

    Can not black individuals become billionaires in the usa? yes 

    Can not black individuals become president of the usa? yes

    Can not black individuals mate and frolic with the non black in the usa? yes

    Those questions were the goal of the nonviolent movement from frederick douglass through MLK jr to Obama. 

    Remember, Frederick Douglass opposed the exodusters whose goal was to have land ownership as the corner stone of self sufficiency + infrastructure development. And his reasons was the exodusters goals allowed for whites to be more negative to the black individual who isn't an exoduster and may be among whites mostly in the usa. 

    MLK jr opposed the panthers , who wanted to use the threat of violence and violence if need be to protect black people from white violence. And his reasons was the panthers goals led to an endangerment to black individuals who are not armed or can't defend themselves as well as an inevitability to the fracturing of the usa, which in his mind like douglass before or obama after has a potential to be a human country that should be ventured to by all. 

    Obama opposes Black legislative agendas, which have never occured in the usa and would have the effect of galvanizing black peoples engagement in government. And his reasons was it again, broke the potential of the usa. 

    you say, black folks have gotten comfortable as if our leaders didn't guide us to this situation purposefully. yes I don't concur to them but it  isn't a white trick, it is an internal black issue. 

  14. @ProfD

    3 hours ago, ProfD said:

    What do Black folks have to show for their gross consumerism?

     

    Nothing in terms of black infrastructure in the usa, but, the why is key. the past matters and the past isnt' 1865 the past is the 1980s. when nyc for example placed how many black people in prison, made a small business administration of nyc that doesn't have opportunities for convicts or exconvicts. NYC has carver , a black owned bank, but I only know one black person who received a loan from them and they have an very above average portfolio. Again, how can the black man put in prison in 1985 ever start a business, unless someone literally gives them money outside the system? And wealthy blacks in nyc, for which there are many , and growing in percentage, don't seem to have time to spend any money helping the many black men serving time as we speak for marijuana selling, which of course is legal now in nyc. I don't deny that it will be nice if black dollars circulate more in the black community , But the reason why they don't isn't black laziness. 

    3 hours ago, ProfD said:

    It's not about a comparative example or following another group.  It's about investing versus spending.

    well, you are not the first black person to speak to me concerning this topic and I told them offline what I will now tell you online.... the only people who are comparable to Black DOSers is the First Peoples of the Americas aka the Native American. Cause all the other people that I have heard black people offline mention who invest and don't spend all have a financial history of allowance black DOSers don't have. White Asians/Chinese, allowed to own businesses when DOSers were not, have a foreign country that DOSers do not. White Europeans.. have been able to take everything by gunpoint which DOSers can not, white jews, a very small populace which DOSers are not plus they have been embedded into the financial backbone of the global white market as operators not commodities whereas DOSers were commodities. 

    I do comprehend your argument profd, it is an old one from the 1800s in the black populace in the usa, it is not something new, but the failure of black investment into the black community by the black financially common people isn't from their own actions. Yes 2009 to 2025 is sixteen years but your belief in finance is such you think sixteen years can undo the damage of centuries, and against fellow groups in the usa, barring the first peoples who were allowed to gain or lose multiple fortunes in that same time ? But, your correct, black consumers can do better with investing into the black populace in the usa. 

    3 hours ago, ProfD said:

    For example, Nike has made Michael Jordan rich but Jordan's name has made Nike wealthy.

    yeah and the owner of Nike was able to get financial assistance, black farm owners in the usa still can't get loans from the bank even after their miraculous ability to have retained land or retained a position as a landowning clan  from the 1800s in many cases. I comprehend you Profd. But, I will argue I don't see how the usa will make it happen. I know black people from the continent have done some things but they have leverage outside the usa, which dosers don't have. I just don't see how DOSers fit these models of other groups: whites/white asians/white jews/black people from the continent/caribbean. we either have too many people , don't have an external community outside the usa, or have a well earned disheartened status to enthusiasm in a land that has been, terrible for us. the usa experience shouldn't make a black dosers enthused about the usa, in all earnest. and most importantly, i don't think it does. 

    4 hours ago, ProfD said:

    Before Nike got their hooks into him, imagine if Michael Jordan had been surrounded by people who could encourage him to brand himself.  Several businesses could have built around his name. 

     

    Right now, Jordan could be the king of athletic wear.  Pulling in every other superstar Black athlete and entertainer would have created a Jordan industry.

    Well I will say one thing to that , remember when Ray Allen hired his own lawyer, instead of using an agent. In my home me and my blood relatives figured all black athletes should do that, but you see, that didn't become common. Why? agents in the sport/entertainment world are many, usually white, and are very toxic. You see it with female athletes of all phenotypes. So... It is beyond Nike, it is the culture of slavery in sports+ entertainment. The agent is the slaver. the athlete/musicians is the enslaved. 

    4 hours ago, ProfD said:

    I get it that we would like to see those types of individuals pool their wealth and build the Black economic infrastructure.  We have to provide them with blueprints before the white folks do.😎

    but do they need a blueprint? A blueprint suggest they need a plan that can lead to something . why not risk into the unknown? 

  15. @ProfD

    1 hour ago, ProfD said:

    Using smart students is a cheaper way to get a product versus hiring people who demand higher salaries to take care of themselves and their families.

    In the translation he suggest passionate not necessarily smarter. That is interesting that you used the word smarter. I didn't gather he suggested the students were smarter or more knowledgeable. It seemed he suggested passionate and engaged.

    1 hour ago, ProfD said:

    We'll see whether or not DeepSeek remains independent or gets absorbed into the OpenAI ecosystem.😎

    I see your angle but to me, I think the variant style in which the deepseek owner hired shows a quality black businesses owners in the usa, black people with money in the usa, black people who consistently say they have the answers that the majority of black people don't heed/listen to/know in the usa, Lack. 

    The Black One percent has problems historically and they are exposed for me. 

  16. @ProfD

    1 hour ago, ProfD said:

    While you're at it, also look up how much money Black folks spend in gross consumerism. 

    I know all about Black consumer spending. But consumer spending doesn't yield to infrastructure growth. I will give as an example the white consumer spending in the usa. I know you have a different assessment to financial history in the usa than me, so i comprehend that some of my points don't add up for you. But for me... for me,  white consumer's didn't build the infrastructure of the white populace in the usa. I can take NYC as the best example. I am 100% certain Rich whites built the entire city. Poor whites/working whites didn't do a damn thing. The public transit, the libraries, the schools, none of that is from white consumers in NYC, Profd, you think white consumer spending is why colombia and nyu exist? 

    Now if you are arguing that Black Consumerism in the usa can be used to build an infrastructure to the black populace in the usa,  I will say that it can. But, I challenge anyone to provide a comparative example that blacks can mirror. Whites in the usa have always had military power black people never had and isn't easy to get enslaved, whites were shipped to the usa by their cousins in europe and were allowed to annihilate first peoples of the americas. White jews are a minority, a far smaller populace, compared to blacks and have never been denied financial opportunity aside other whites in the usa, so you can't compare blacks to white jews. Asians are another historically very minor populace , far smaller than the black populace, and have always been allowed financial opportunity unlike blacks. The thing about black dosers is no one is like us, we don't have a comparative group in humanity. The details are not the same, and the details matter. 

    So, even though USA financial history shows no groups consumer dollars built their infrastructure, if blacks in the usa are to build an infrastructure through consumer spending, i challenge anyone to show another community in a comparative situation anywhere on earth , that has done it? If you can't provide a group in a comparative situation to Black DOSers anywhere in human history that have used their consumer dollars to build their infrastructure then ... what is the thing never before done in humanity that can get it to work? 

    I will not negate the possibility but lets honest about its framing. 

  17. @Pioneer1 

    21 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

    Man, I don't know HOW to vote in your poll.....lol.

    you are a fellow male:) hit the circle you like:) look at the gif

    Based on your answer, you would click the circle left of SOME BLACK MOST NON BLACK

    now10.gif

     

    And that is ok, you are not the first black person i heard who said they would invest the least in the black community and I don't think it is a problem or a negative. My only issue is when black people who have millions or more don't invest most in the black community but then demand working black people who don't even have hundreds of thousands invest all of there money in the black community. In fiscal capitalism it is always the wealthiest who are relied upon, in all communities, not the fiscal poor.

  18. @ProfD

    On 1/28/2025 at 8:42 PM, ProfD said:

    On average, AfroAmerican churches collect about $11 billion dollars per year. It would be helpful to know how and where they are investing it.

    wow! is that true Profd? wow! I will have to spend an edition of the economic corner figuring out how to research where the black church invest, this is a great point, thank you Profd well done. 

  19. @ProfD 

    well done, you skipped through the corner:)

     

    7 hours ago, ProfD said:

    What remains to be seen is if DeepSeek will be allowed to overtake OpenAI in the market. I wouldn't bet on it.😎

    to be honest, that is part of why i shared the articles in this economic corner as i did, the owner of deepseek said a lot in all earnest about why he started the firm which was for intelllecutal curiosity, to be honest, it is a scholarly endeavor, Please read it yourself, all artlcles are cited, if you want a better translation, but he made his money using computer programs to forecast financial activity, but this project was not about financial gain and he rejects the idea that alot of this ai stuff is financially profitable, i do wonder what you and any others in this forum who read the articles, especailly the one with his quotes, think about his positions toward hiring/investing/ and more. 

  20. @ProfD

    I notice you have nothing to say about deepseek or nvidia or as they relate to the economic corner edition? how has the presentation of the topic failed to garner communication from your mind, in any fashion?

     

    12 hours ago, ProfD said:

    I believe there will be a demand for skilled tradespeople to build things here.

    I don't know.

    First , globally the machine laborer is here, and the machine laborer is the perfect goal for the fiscal capitalist because it isn't human. The entire labor reason for enslavement is very simple, an enslaved human being is always more preferable to an employer looking  to save money on employees and spend the least revenue on employees. The machine laborer has always been what the enslaved human laborer was, a worker with the least cost per time while providing optimum output. pain/fear/punishment was the driver to get the enslaved laborer to do beyond what a free laborer could do, while the scenario of enslavement meant the least cost overhead. 

    The white european imperial era has embedded in all countries a populace of business owners/wealthy who want machine laborers, the perfect slave laborer. The global labor environment doesn't bold well for any country wanting to maintain free market human labor with competitors totally automated. 

    Second, in the usa itself, states are pulling away from each other, as they originally were. While many suggest the states in the usa should be aligned I argue historically they never were. That is why the war between the states happened. Said war happened because states at that time and before actually had the resources to manage themselves to wage war against each other. After said war, the federal government 's modern bureaucracy started and continued to grow unabated , possible till 2025 when schrumpf earned a second term and seems focused on defunding the federal government more seriously than any president since after the war between the states. So maybe california with the fires. But it will be , like abortion, a state to state issue. You use the word here as in the usa, but i think that is financially flawed, which state in the usa are you talking about? Each state is different. 

    13 hours ago, ProfD said:

    Prior to integration, Black folks had to build their own businesses. 

    Well... enslaved black peoples who were not citizens were financially integrated into the life of white enslavers who were citizens in the usa and then after the war between the states, black citizens of the usa were financially integrated into the life of the state governments in the usa who each used their legal systems to: use black prisoners for enslaved labor to build up their public + private sectors[which still occurs today], use black farmers as eternally indentured enslaved labor for white land owners [which stopped around the 1970s when white farmers were replaced with publicly traded corporations who use heavy machinery], use black populaces land or quantity to aid in federal programs, like the  federal highway program or annual federal aid,  against their free will which is the epitome of slavery[which happens today].

    Did a time exist when a majority of white businesses did not accept black customers in public? yes

    Did said time aid in the mandatory creation of black owned businesses to service black customers in public? yes

    But, did the governments of the states in the usa support or allow the creation of black businesses across the board as needed? no

    During said time was black people in the usa integrated into the financial activities of white businesses?yes

    The greatest dream of an enslaved people is to be segregated from their enslaver. The greatest goal of an oppressed people is to be segregated from their oppressor. 

    13 hours ago, ProfD said:

    Integration made it easier for them to destroy and discourage Black businesses. 

    Well, 

    the financial periods for blacks in the usa is 

    Enslavement- which started in the european colonial age in the american continent before the usa was founded [started circa 1500]and ended at the end of the war between the states after the usa was founded [circa 1865]

    Jim Crow- which started at the end of the war between the states[circa 1865] and ended when Barrack Obama became president[circa 2009]

    Citizenship era- started from the Barrack Obama presidency[circa 2009] to modernity

     

    Enslavement was the longest period and has the easiest discouragement or destruction of black businesses or all other aspects of black life. 

     

    Jim Crow- is a period of crest and troughs concerning black business. The first period was a crest of black businesses made from pure nonviolent will + hope, then a trough led by white people who will eventually become the first klu klux klan, the first organization the federal bureau of investigation infiltrated and destroyed, burned everything black people until no one wanted to try again.

    Then a crest with Booker T Washington and schools financed by white christians/web dubois and the black one percent as office workers being financed by white jews/Garvey and exodusters who were promoting black segregation in the usa, exodusters, or outside the usa, garvey built many businesses from the ground up absent white finance, thus oscar micheaux and tulsa oklahoma. The trough was the first two phases of the world war and between the multiple market crashes around both said phases and whites using the wartime scenario to harm all black activity, black business + many black communities were undone completely. The reason why the trough is the first two phases is because in between the two phases their was a black recovery period which led to micheaux and black wall street but the second phase was so damaging and changing to the usa itself that the recovery was impossible.

    Then the gi bill of FDR led 1950s started a crest in the third phase of the world war. Many black soldiers went to college, because the government paid and colleges wanted the money,  and some stayed in the military, which was the first time blacks had a significant presence in the usa military outside war time in usa history. Blacks started business, more urban or northern, the damage from prior troughs had eliminated most blacks in the south or west from wanting with their personal history of white aggression. It was in this crest that the nation of silam, the panthers, the civil rights act occured. The trough came with the multipronged attack of :white businesses starting to  accept public patronage of black customers ever increasing till the modern which hurt black business that lived off that reality which wasn't all black business , white owned firms shipping jobs outside the usa evading paying black laborers or paying for unionized black labor/white city or state governments definancing all public services in regions with majority black populations while elected officials obtain wealth using the money denied to blacks for their own couffeurs/white law enforcement agencies profiting off of selling drugs in the black community + putting black people in jail for using the drugs they are selling maintainging an ever increasing call for more government funds to law enforcement. 

     

    Citizenship- Black people in the usa have a significant non DOS populace based on various willing immigrants from the caribbean/south america/africa/asia/austronesia and have the largest internally mixed race of blacks from DOS with one of said immigrant groups in usa history, with the ever increasing union labor returns or returns from latter years of the jim crow era [starting in the 1970s] the black populace has the weakest level of wealth in terms of land ownership or level of trade skills while the strongest level of wealth in terms of dollars saved or level of scholarly skills. 

     

    So, did the white business shift in accepting black patronage publicly [done because of the soviet union] delete the strength or need for black businesses who publicly accepted said patronage? yes

    But was said white business shift the easiest time to destroy or discourage black business? no, multiple times earlier were far more potent and the other pronges in the trough had more value to the destruction or discouragement of the black populace. 

     

    15 hours ago, ProfD said:

    That's interesting because your best of chance of making a billion dollars is in the USA.

     

    IOW, as a black person, there's nowhere else you could go on this planet and make a billion dollars as a non-native. 

    Well, I will say this, if I was a millionaire I wouldn't invest a penny in the usa either. I said billionaire just to make it clear even if I had leisure money I would not.

    While I am not a Garveyite I have always thought Garvey was correct alongside some peers[exodusters who simply had the same ideas as garvey black segregation from whites but wanted it in the usa] in contrast to others peers[booker t washington +web duboius]. But regardless of the financial outcome or risk, I would invest in other places, I didn't say where,  outside the usa, whereas i repeat I never would invest in the usa. 

    SO I made my statement of investment fully aware of financial history or real or potential challenges. 

    What does IOW mean?

    15 hours ago, ProfD said:

    Black folks know this but have been conditioned to accept it and not practice and take advantage among themselves on a grand scale

    Yes, Black in the usa have been conditioned through being terrorized by whites to not be hopeful to the usa. I think it is an honest assessment. The terrorist murdering activities of whites in the Jim Crow era as I defined justifies the lack of black hope in the usa, and I don't know if it was you profd who once said, you were happy about the black modern immigrant populace but the reality is, the big separator to Black DOSers and  Black modern immigrants is Black DOSers correctly, justly have a disengagement to the usa earned by the history of Black DOSers. I think Black Immigrants who often operate as small populaces for example black jamaicans or black haiaitan are a very small percentage of the black populace in the usa, more like white jews who are a very small percentage of the white populace. 

    So I do concur that black DOSers have been conditioned by white terrorism in the usa in the  Jim Crow era I defined from circa 1865 to circa 2009 to not be engaged or hopeful to the usa. It isn't a matter of not taking advantage, it is about desires. A Majority of Black DOSers in the usa because of fate , the past that can't be changed, have no where to go outside the usa  while they also have no reason to invest in the usa. Now a minority of Black DOSers , like yourself PRofd , have always professed an americanism. Frederick Douglass/ WEB Dubois when young not old/ MLK jr/Obama but all of these leaders, integrationist,  I argue were never the majority's pick for leader at their time. The majority of DOSers picked the  Exodusters/Garvey/Malcolm/none of the above, all are segregationists in some form, including none of the above in modernity. And that is why I always suggest you Profd, find that minoirty in the minority. The majority of black people in the usa or the european colonies that preceded it have always been anti statian, anti usa. It is unfortunate the minority of blacks who are historically pro statian, pro usa don't seem to accept this truth and then act accordingly in their minority. 

  21. @ProfD well, first glad you were hired by a black owned firm, it isn't common in the black populace in the usa and for honest reasons.  

     

    ok, you say the entertainment industry has the greatest growth potential for black owned business. ok

     

    On 1/28/2025 at 8:37 PM, ProfD said:

    For many decades, especially among AfroAmericans, education has promoted ahead of imagination, creativity and risk-taking which are required when it comes to entrepreneurship.

    well an asian said in local nyc news that asians in the usa lack imagination largely from how they are reared. So that seems a common reality for non white europeans in the usa.

     

    On 1/28/2025 at 8:37 PM, ProfD said:

    IMO, Black folks aren't groomed hard enough when it comes to 1) learning skilled trades and 2) building businesses.

    Is someone a disciple of Booker t washington's ways , half of your argument, learning skilled trades, was his position over one hundred and fifty years ago.

    As for starting businesses well, my forebears from either parent all started and built and for a time maintained multiple businesses... white power at the end of the day, destroyed them all. And as I have said in the past in this forum, if i had a billion dollars I wouldn't invest a penny in the usa. 

     

    On 1/28/2025 at 8:37 PM, ProfD said:

    After the wildfires in California, contractors are going to make a sh8t ton of money rebuilding there. I doubt Black folks will get 1% of the contracts. 😎

    I am 100% certain they will not, but not because of black business quality , but because contracts are given out by government officials to their friends and allies and white people have a ton of whites friends+ allies who are first in line as being part of the white community. It is the same in NYC. The USA has never been a country of merit, or free market,  always genocide + enslavement and then nepotism+fealty+biases or favoritisms.

     

  22. @ProfD 

    I see , in the 11th economic corner the financial evaluation of the tech industry is exposed as falsely priced so I argue, such imbalanced speculation is a caveat to why a black person can not afford. And that has little to do with black DOSers who unlike the chinese... don't have control of a country/government residing over mostly our own. 

  23. DeepSeek and the quality of usa finance
    MY THOUGHTS
    600 billion dollars. Nvidia lost 17th percent of its value in a day . Like many USA firms or industries outside military products, they are weak from the 1900s to today.  
    DeepSeek said it cost 5 million dollars to produce a product rivaling any comparative computer program in storage/speed/calculation at  1/20th of the cost. So this proves the value of the usa firms is incorrect. which is my issue. Tesla was given such a high value. The USA's financial environment allows for a bloating of firms, like Nvidia, like Tesla that to be blunt, have each lost huge market shares which they shouldn't. The fact that the best electric cars are made in china exposes Tesla's management to me. The fact that Nvidia who was part of an industry that biden gave billions of investment to and are playing catchup exposes the chip industry in the usa. The fact that OpenAI and Anthropic isn't open source, and have been outed for their financial dysfunction, demanding such investment while not making the code public exposes them. 
    Yes,  I will use this economic corner to share DeepSeek information as best I can. But my agenda is actually not about DeepSeek but the financial argument that the USA has a problem in the investment in technologies. There are those who believe that the one world has already been created and the USA is really the binder to all governments, in that mindset, no one is competing because the usa is really, the interchange between all governments. Human history proves fissures that are wanted, eventually become real, even if it takes a long time. The lesson in Chinese industries to all non white European governments, is to consider how they research , how they approach technological development. Is it about the Massachusetts institute of technology M.I.T. , is it about Stanford, is it about nepotism? I remember being a college student and I remember so often it was blacks who graduated from an oxford or an M.I.T. that would be given opportunities but didn't have the imagination or passion to do well with them. And the reason is simple, as anyone non white european knows, many people, including many asians that go to college in the usa are more interested with the appearance of intellect than being an ambitious creative. And for the record, the black people two generations earlier than mine, in my bloodline, earned multiple degrees or graduated from the ivy league schools, so my position is not about not going to an ivy league school or gaining multiple degrees, which i find so many black people love to suggest in a very enslaved way when another black person speaks of imaginations speaks of passion. Getting degrees for too many Black Descendent of Enslaved people is a Keeping up with the Jones act, to compare to other blacks in a view display to whites,  not an important act to creativity or learning. The second article below may convince you, of my point in this economic corner, which has been uttered by many Black DOSers since the end of the war between the states in the usa. 

    I quote the first article below, and the source article the quotes are from are present.

    Liang told Chinese tech publication 36Kr that the decision was motivated by scientific curiosity, not a desire to make a profit. “I couldn’t find a commercial reason to start DeepSeek even if you asked me,” he said. “Because it’s not commercially viable. Basic research has a very low return on investment. When OpenAI’s early investors gave it money, they probably didn’t think about the return they would get. Rather, they really wanted to do this business.”
    ...
    While OpenAI o1 costs $15 per million incoming tokens and $60 per million outgoing tokens, the DeepSeek Reasoner API based on the R1 model offers $0.55 per million incoming tokens and $2.19 per million outgoing tokens.
    ...
    To train its models, the High-Flyer hedge fund purchased more than 10,000 NVIDIA H100 GPUs before the US export restrictions were introduced in 2022. Billionaire and Scale AI CEO Alexander Wang recently told CNBC that he estimates that DeepSeek now has about 50,000 NVIDIA H100 chips that they cannot talk about precisely because of US export controls. If this estimate is correct, then compared to the leading companies in the AI industry, such as OpenAI, Google, and Anthropic, this is very small. After all, each of them has more than 500,000 GPUs.
    ...
     This also calls into question the feasibility of the Stargate project, an initiative under which OpenAI, Oracle, and SoftBank promise to build next-generation AI data centers in the United States, allegedly willing to spend up to $500 billion.


    Deepseek provides detailed technical reports explaining how the models work, as well as code that anyone can look at and try to copy.
    Code on hugging face
    https://huggingface.co/deepseek-ai/DeepSeek-R1

    The code on GitHub
    https://github.com/deepseek-ai/DeepSeek-R1

    referral
    https://fortune.com/2025/01/27/deepseek-just-flipped-the-ai-script-in-favor-of-open-source-and-the-irony-for-openai-and-anthropic-is-brutal/

     

    ARTICLES

    Where DeepSeek came from and who is behind the AI lab that shocked Silicon Valley
    Taras Mishchenko
    Editor-in-Chief of Mezha.Media. Taras has more than 15 years of experience in IT journalism, writes about new technologies and gadgets.

    28.01.2025 at 09:56
    A new artificial intelligence model DeepSeek-R1 from the Chinese laboratory DeepSeek appeared as if from nowhere. For the general public, the first mentions of it began to appear in the media only last week, and now it seems that everyone is talking about DeepSeek. Moreover, in just a week, the DeepSeek app has overtaken the well-known ChatGPT in the US App Store rankings. The model has also skyrocketed to the top downloadson the Hugging Face developer platform, asdevelopers are rushing to try it out and understand what this release can bring to their AI projects. So, logical questions arise: where did DeepSeek come from, who is behind this startup, and why has it made so much noise. I will try to answer them in this article.

    Where DeepSeek came from
    Given the history of Chinese tech companies, DeepSeek should have been a project of giants like Baidu, Alibaba, or ByteDance. But this AI lab was launched in 2023 by High-Flyer, a Chinese hedge fund founded in 2015 by entrepreneur Liang Wenfeng. He made a fortune using AI and algorithms to identify patterns that could affect stock prices. The hedge fund quickly gained popularity in China, and was able to raise more than 100 billion yuan (about $15 billion). Since 2021, this figure has dropped to about $8 billion, but High-Flyer is still one of the most important hedge funds in the country.

    As High-Flyer’s core business overlapped with the development of AI models, the hedge fund accumulated GPUs over the years and created Fire-Flyer supercomputers to analyze financial data. In the wake of the growing popularity of ChatGPT, a chatbot from the American company OpenAI, Liang, who also holds a master’s degree in computer science, decided in 2023 to invest his fund’s resources in a new company called DeepSeek, which was to create its own advanced models and develop general artificial intelligence (AGI).

    Liang told Chinese tech publication 36Kr [ https://36kr.com/p/2272896094586500 ] that the decision was motivated by scientific curiosity, not a desire to make a profit. “I couldn’t find a commercial reason to start DeepSeek even if you asked me,” he said. “Because it’s not commercially viable. Basic research has a very low return on investment. When OpenAI’s early investors gave it money, they probably didn’t think about the return they would get. Rather, they really wanted to do this business.”

    According to Liang, when he assembled DeepSeek’s R&D team, he also didn’t look for experienced engineers to build a consumer-facing product. Instead, he focused on doctoral students from top universities in China, including Peking University, Tsinghua University, and Beihang University, who were eager to prove themselves. Many of them had published in top journals and won awards at international academic conferences, but had no industry experience, according to Chinese technology publication QBitAI. [ https://www.qbitai.com/2025/01/241000.html ; identity of workers at DeepSeek] 

    “Our main technical positions are mostly filled by people who graduated this year or within the last one or two years,” Liang said in an interview in 2023. He believes that students may be better suited for high-investment, low-return research. “Most people, when they are young, can fully commit to a mission without utilitarian considerations,” Liang explained. His pitch to potential employees is that DeepSeek was created to “solve the world’s toughest questions.”

    Liang, who is personally involved in DeepSeek’s development, uses the proceeds from his hedge fund to pay high salaries to top AI talent. Along with TikTok owner ByteDance, DeepSeek is known in China for providing top compensation to AI engineers, and staff are based in offices in Hangzhou and Beijing.

    Liang positions DeepSeek as a uniquely “local” company, staffed by PhDs from leading Chinese universities. In an interview with the domestic press last year, he said that his core team “didn’t have any people who came back from abroad. They are all local… We have to develop the best talent ourselves.” DeepSeek’s identity as a purely Chinese LLM company has earned it popularity at home, as this approach is fully in line with Chinese government policy.

    This week, Liang was the only representative of China’s AI industry chosen to participate in a highly publicized meeting of entrepreneurs with the country’s second-in-command, Li Qiang. Entrepreneurs were told to “focus on breakthroughs in key technologies.”

    Not much is known about how DeepSeek started building its own large language models (LLMs), but the lab quickly opened their source code, and it is likely that, like many Chinese AI developers, it relied on open source projects created by Meta, such as the Llama model and the Pytorch machine learning library. At the same time, DeepSeek’s particular focus on research makes it a dangerous competitor for OpenAI, Meta, and Google, as the AI lab is, at least for now, willing to share its discoveries rather than protect them for commercial gain. DeepSeek has not raised funds from outside and has not yet taken significant steps to monetize its models. However, it is not known for certain whether the Chinese government is involved in financing the company.

    What makes the DeepSeek-R1 AI model unique
    In November, DeepSeek first announced that it had achieved performance that surpassed the leading-edge OpenAI o1 model, but at the time it only released a limited R1-lite-preview model. With the release of the full DeepSeek-R1 model last week and the accompanying white paper, the company introduced a surprising innovation: a deliberate departure from the traditional supervised fine-tuning (SFT) process that is widely used for training large language models (LLMs).

    SFT is a standard approach for AI development and involves training models on prepared datasets to teach them step-by-step reasoning, often referred to as a chain of thought (CoT). However, DeepSeek challenged this assumption by skipping SFT entirely and instead relying on reinforcement learning (RL) to train DeepSeek-R1.

    According to Jeffrey Emanuel, a serial investor and CEO of blockchain company Pastel Network, DeepSeek managed to outpace Anthropic in the application of the chain of thought (CoT), and now they are practically the only ones, apart from OpenAI, who have made this technology work on a large scale.

    At the same time, unlike OpenAI, which is incredibly secretive about how these models actually work at a low level and does not provide the actual model weights to anyone other than partners like Microsoft, these DeepSeek models are completely open and permissively licensed. They have released extremely detailed technical reports explaining how the models work, as well as code that anyone can look at and try to copy.

    With R1, DeepSeek essentially cracked one of the holy grails of AI: getting models to reason step by step without relying on massive teacher datasets. Their DeepSeek-R1-Zero experiment showed something remarkable: using pure reinforcement learning with carefully designed reward functions, the researchers were able to get the models to develop complex reasoning capabilities completely autonomously. It wasn’t just problem solving-the model organically learned to generate long chains of thought, check its own work, and allocate more computational time to more complex problems.

    In this way, the model learned to revise its thinking on its own. What is particularly interesting is that during training, DeepSeek observed what they called an “aha moment,” a phase when the model spontaneously learned to revise its chain of thought mid-process when faced with uncertainty. This sudden behavior was not explicitly programmed, but arose naturally from the interaction between the model and the reinforcement learning environment. The model literally stopped itself, flagged potential problems in its reasoning, and restarted with a different approach, all without being explicitly trained to do so.

    DeepSeek also solved one of the main problems in reasoning models: language consistency. Previous attempts at chain-of-thought reasoning often resulted in models mixing languages or producing incoherent output. DeepSeek solved this problem by smartly rewarding language consistency during RL training, sacrificing a slight performance hit for a much more readable and consistent output.

    As a result, DeepSeek-R1 achieves high accuracy and efficiency. At AIME 2024, one of the toughest math competitions for high school students, R1 achieved 79.8% accuracy, which is in line with OpenAI’s o1 model. At MATH-500, it reached 97.3%, and at the Codeforces programming competition, it reached the 96.3 percentile. But perhaps most impressively, DeepSeek was able to distill these capabilities down to much smaller models: their 14 billion-parameter version outperforms many models several times its size, showing that reasoning power depends not only on the number of parameters but also on how you train the model to process information.

    However, the uniqueness of DeepSeek-R1 lies not only in the new approach to model training, but also in the fact that it is the first time a Chinese AI model has gained such great popularity in the West. Users, of course, immediately went to ask it questions about Tiananmen Square and Taiwan that were sensitive to the Chinese government, and quickly realized that DeepSeek was censored. Indeed, it would be futile to expect a Chinese AI lab to not comply with Chinese law or policy.

    However, many developers consider this censorship to be an infrequent extreme case in real-world use that can be mitigated by fine-tuning. Therefore, it is unlikely that the issue of ethical use of DeepSeek-R1 will stop many developers and users who want to get access to the latest AI development and essentially for free.

    Of course, for many, the security of the data remains a question mark, as DeepSeek-R1 probably stores it on Chinese servers. But as a precautionary measure, you can try the model on Hugging Face in sandbox mode [ https://huggingface.co/deepseek-ai/DeepSeek-R1 ] , or even run it locally on your PC if you have the necessary hardware. In such cases, the model will not be fully functional, but it will remove the issue of data transfer to Chinese servers.

    How much did it cost to develop DeepSeek-R1?
    To train its models, the High-Flyer hedge fund purchased more than 10,000 NVIDIA H100 GPUs before the US export restrictions were introduced in 2022. Billionaire and Scale AI CEO Alexander Wang recently told CNBC that he estimates that DeepSeek now has about 50,000 NVIDIA H100 chips that they cannot talk about precisely because of US export controls. If this estimate is correct, then compared to the leading companies in the AI industry, such as OpenAI, Google, and Anthropic, this is very small. After all, each of them has more than 500,000 GPUs.

    According to NVIDIA engineer Jim Fan, DeepSeek trained its base model, called V3, with a budget of $5.58 million over two months. However, it is difficult to estimate the total cost of training DeepSeek-R1. The use of 60,000 NVIDIA GPUs could potentially cost hundreds of millions of dollars, so the exact figures remain speculative.

    Why DeepSeek-R1 shocked Silicon Valley
    DeepSeek largely disrupts the business model of OpenAI and other Western companies working on their own closed AI models. After all, DeepSeek-R1 not only performs better than the best open-source alternative, Llama 3 by Meta. The model transparently shows the entire chain of thought in its answers. This is a blow to the reputation of OpenAI, which has hitherto hidden the thought chains of its models, citing trade secrets and the fact that it does not want to embarrass users when the model is wrong.

    In addition, DeepSeek’s success emphasizes that cost-effective and efficient AI development methods are realistic. We have already determined that in the case of a Chinese company, it is difficult to calculate the cost of development, and there may always be “surprises” in the form of multi-billion dollar government funding. But at the moment, DeepSeek-R1, with a similar level of accuracy to OpenAI o1, is much cheaper for developers. While OpenAI o1 costs $15 per million incoming tokens and $60 per million outgoing tokens, the DeepSeek Reasoner API based on the R1 model offers $0.55 per million incoming tokens and $2.19 per million outgoing tokens.

    However, while DeepSeek’s innovations are groundbreaking, they have by no means given the Chinese AI lab market leadership. As DeepSeek has published its research, other AI model development companies will learn from it and adapt. Meta and Mistral, a French open-source model development company, may be a bit behind, but it will probably only take them a few months to catch up with DeepSeek. As Ian LeCun, a leading AI researcher at Meta, said: “The idea is that everyone benefits from the ideas of others. No one is “ahead” of anyone and no country is “losing” to another. No one has a monopoly on good ideas. Everyone learns from everyone.”

    DeepSeek’s offerings are likely to continue to lower the cost of using AI models, which will benefit not only ordinary users but also startups and other businesses interested in AI. But if developing a DeepSeek-R1 model with fewer resources does turn out to be a reality, it could be a problem for AI companies that have invested heavily in their own infrastructure. In particular, years of operating and capital expenditures by OpenAI and others could be wasted.

    The market doesn’t yet know the final answer to whether AI development will indeed require less computing power in the future, but it is already reacting nervouslywith a drop in shares of NVIDIA and other suppliers of AI data center components. This also calls into question the feasibility of the Stargate project, an initiative under which OpenAI, Oracle, and SoftBank promise to build next-generation AI data centers in the United States, allegedly willing to spend up to $500 billion.

    But on the other hand, while American companies will still have excess capacity for the development of artificial intelligence, China’s DeepSeek, with the US export restrictions on chips still in place, may face a severe shortage. If we assume that resource constraints have indeed pushed it to innovate and allowed it to create a competitive product, the lack of computing power will simply prevent it from scaling, while competitors will catch up. Therefore, despite all the innovation of DeepSeek, it is still too early to say that Chinese companies will be able to compete with Western AI tech giants, even if we put aside the issues of censorship and data security.

    URL
    https://mezha.media/en/articles/where-deepseek-came-from-and-who-is-behind-the-ai-lab-that-shocked-silicon-valley

     

    Question and Answer excerpts from 疯狂的幻方:一家隐形AI巨头的大模型之路
    ...
    36Kr: What deductions and assumptions have we made about the business model?

    Liang Wenfeng: What we want now is that we can share most of our training results publicly, so that it can be combined with commercialization. We hope that more people, even a small app, can use large models at a low cost, instead of technology only in the hands of some people and companies, forming a monopoly.
    ...
    36Kr: In any case, it's a bit crazy for a commercial company to do a kind of research exploration with unlimited investment.

    Liang Wenfeng: If you have to find a commercial reason, it may not be found, because it can't be done.

    From a business point of view, basic research has a very low return on investment. When OpenAI's early investors invested money, they must not have thought about how much return I would get back, but really wanted to do it.

    What we are more certain now is that since we want to do this and have the ability, we are one of the most suitable candidates at this point in time.
    ...
    36Kr: How would you see the competitive landscape of large models?

    Liang Wenfeng: Large manufacturers definitely have advantages, but if they can't be applied quickly, they may not be able to continue to adhere to them, because they need to see results.

    The top startups also have solid technology, but like the old wave of AI startups, they have to face commercialization problems.
    ...
    36Kr: Talents for large-scale model entrepreneurship are also scarce, and some investors say that many suitable talents may only be in the AI labs of giants such as OpenAI and FacebookAI Research. Do you go overseas to poach this kind of talent?

    Liang Wenfeng: If you are pursuing short-term goals, it is right to find someone with existing experience. But if you look at the long term, experience is not so important, but basic ability, creativity, passion, etc. are more important. From this point of view, there are many suitable candidates in China.

    36Kr: Why isn't experience so important?

    Liang Wenfeng: You don't have to be able to do this by someone who has done this. High-Flyer's principle of recruiting people is to look at ability, not experience. Our core technical positions are basically mainly fresh graduates and those who have graduated for one or two years.

    36Kr: Do you think experience is an obstacle when it comes to innovating business?

    Liang Wenfeng: When you do something, experienced people will tell you without thinking that you should do it, but people without experience will repeatedly explore and think seriously about what should be done, and then find a solution that is in line with the current actual situation.

    36Kr: High-Flyer has entered the industry from a layman with no financial genes at all, and has become the head in a few years, is this recruitment rule one of the secrets?

    Liang Wenfeng: Our core team, even myself, didn't have quantitative experience at the beginning, which is very special. It can't be said to be the secret of success, but it's one of the cultures of High-Flyer. We don't deliberately shy away from experienced people, but it's more about ability.

    Take the sales position as an example. Our two main sales officers are both amateurs in this industry. One was originally engaged in the foreign trade of German machinery categories, and the other was originally written in the background of the brokerage. When they enter the industry, they have no experience, no resources, no accumulation.

    And now we may be the only big private equity firm that can focus on direct sales. Doing direct selling means that there is no need to divide the fees to the middlemen, and the profit margin is higher under the same scale and performance, and many companies will try to imitate us, but they do not succeed.

    36Kr: Why are many families trying to imitate you, but they are not successful?

    Liang Wenfeng: Because that's not enough for innovation to happen. It needs to match the culture and management of the company.

    In fact, they couldn't do anything in the first year, and only in the second year did they start to make some progress. But our assessment criteria are different from those of ordinary companies. We don't have KPIs and we don't have so-called tasks.

    36Kr: What are your assessment criteria?

    Liang Wenfeng: We are not like ordinary companies, we value the number of orders placed by customers, and our sales sales and commissions are not good at the beginning, but will encourage sales to develop their own circles, meet more people, and have greater influence.

    Because we believe that an honest salesperson who can be trusted by customers may not be able to get customers to place orders in a short period of time, but it can make you feel that he is a reliable person.
    URL
    https://36kr.com/p/2272896094586500

     

    Prior entry

    https://aalbc.com/tc/topic/11445-economiccorner010/

     

  24. TikTok is the first non usa website to be the biggest esocial website in online humanity. If bytedance sells TikTok wholesale it is a financial mistake Bytedance should sell tiktokusa not tiktok. In Europe/South America/Africa/Asia tiktok is the big leader in the world, selling it completely to a usa buyer is a usa win. It is like the Japanese automakers making manufacturing plants in the usa, when they through competition won the economic car market, it is a usa win. Make TikTokusa TTU and make sure tiktokusa has contractual arrangements that demand an integration/association with TikTok.
    Profd , a member of aalbc cited below, said
    The next 4 years could be a wild ride in that regard as oligarchs get to pick and choose freedoms.
    This morning, I saw the handful of faces of people who could buy ByteDance i.e. TikTok.  None of them were Black.😎
    https://aalbc.com/tc/topic/11431-tiktok-service-restored-ban-suspended/#findComment-71294

    Here is my issue. I don't mind a black buyer, though I think financially it is better to have a collection of black owners working together as a group. But for me the larger issue is the argument focuses on buying tiktok, instead of investing in a better online service for black people. 

    The film industry of Nigeria, commonly called Nollywood needs an online interface like a tiktok, I rather invest in that. 

    I know my words may seem like an attack to PRofd but they are not. My entire life, I have always heard the most financially capable blacks always emphasize investing in non black enterprises and never a word to owning a black owned enterprise. In my life, all to often, it is black people who are financially least capable or incapable who talk about owning black and not investing in non black. The internet is a huge place. Tiktok was not born because chinese were selling to the usa, tiktok is a clone of a chinese website to chinese people. 

    I rather a set of black investors invest in AALBC than tiktok. 

     

    Prior Post

    https://aalbc.com/tc/topic/11444-economiccorner009/

     

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