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How can you tell yof something is true?


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On 5/28/2023 at 2:37 AM, Delano said:

Or can you tell when you are wrong before experience shows you the truth?

 

 

What a thought. 

My first thoughts are that, in general, you cannot recognize that you are wrong about something unless you are able to experience the truth (shown the truth) by some form of expression. As humans, we are born and come into awareness of our existence and surroundings gradually, and we are conditioned by others so, by the time we have formed opinions, thoughts and beliefs, therefore, in reality, these beliefs are NOT ours as individuals. So, it will come a time as we mature that SOME OF US will become aware that we need to contemplate why we believe as we do and may come to realize that our earlier 'teachers' and 'stimulants' may have been wrong and immature about certain issues; we have been misguided. I've come to this point where I came to realize that my 'teachers' were completely wrong about certain things. But in order for me to be sure that something was true, I WENT BACK TO THE SOURCE WHENEVER I COULD and questioned them and that became the confirmation! 

But again, I had to experience the truth before I even realized that I had been conditioned to belief in something that was wrong. 

Gong back to the source that led me on the wrong pathway is awesome when it can be done, but there are other pathways to getting the truth as well.  

 

 

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4 hours ago, Chevdove said:

these beliefs are NOT ours as individuals

This is something that has been on my mind.  In a slightly different form. We don't know what to think. If we did advertising critics peer pressure and fashion wouldn't exist.

 

Books music movies and the others tell us what's acceptable. The groups you belong to may have conflicting/different rules. 

What other pathways are there to get the truth or at least identify a falsehood 

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On some level I don't think we can actually tell what is "true."  Our brains don't have the capacity for this.  Our bodies are very limited in terms of what we can actually sense, 

 

Our brain create our perception which can differ from person to person. Even when our physical perception of the world is very close, we still can't agree on what is true. This has become more evident in the age of alternative facts and the resulting alternative realities they conjure. 

 

Some people believe Astrology is real others don't.  Some people believe there are multiple human races, choosing to completely ignore the science. Still other believe you will suffer eternal damnation of you don't accept the Lord Jesus Christ as your savior.  If is real for them, while for the majority of the rest of the world something else is "true."

 

How we decide what is true is different for each person, and I'm not convinced it is a completely rational and conscious decision.

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Human history has provided us with accepted truths that are passed down through generations. 

 

As human beings continue to explore and discover, we re-evaluate truths or debunk them and find new truths.

 

Personally, as someone who generally believes half of what I can see and none of what I hear, I know truth through intuition and/or verification. 

 

Of course, I've been alive long enough to develop a decent database of knowledge,  skills and abilities. My truth filter works fairly well.😎

 

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Yes, of course, most things are unknowable.  We accept things based upon approximations or just straight up faith.

 

What happens after you die? Many claim to know, but they are relating faith not knowledge. 

 

 

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Troy

1. There is a difference between unknow-ABLE and unknow-N
Just because you don't know something, doesn't mean you aren't able TO eventually know it.

2.  To your second point...MANY people have died and actually came back to tell us what happened on the other side.
Confirmed.
It's not a matter of just FAITH but FACT as well.

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6 hours ago, Troy said:

 

How we decide what is true is different for each person, and I'm not convinced it is a completely rational and conscious decision.

Are there any Truths, is there anything that is believed unanimously. Is there an objective reality. How can we tell if this is reality or a simulation.

11 hours ago, Chevdove said:

 

What a thought. 

Since COVID I have been both fascinated and perplexed by people's beliefs. However I don't think I am any different. I believe things that are seem as incompatible.

 

Among Astrologers I am seem as anomaly. Which I didn't understand. Until I wrote the previous Sentence.

 

One thing that w ems to be having wider acceptance is that things aren't going well. Our trajectory isn't sustainable.

6 hours ago, ProfD said:

human beings continue to explore and discover, we re-evaluate truths or debunk them and find new truths.

Finding new truths makes sense. It was believed that swans were white. Until black swans were seen in Australia. So perhaps something is true if we can't see that it is false.

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3 hours ago, Troy said:

something is unknowable, how do you know it is true?

If something doesn't exist in your world or mindset it is beyond approach. I told you accept the possibility of its existence.

3 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

there any such thing as that which is "unknowable"?

My guess is consciousness is unknowable. In the same way a fish in water doesn't know it's in water. Nor do we know what air is made of, we are told and we believe. This maybe true of everything.

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On 5/29/2023 at 2:02 PM, Pioneer1 said:

MANY people have died and actually came back to tell us what happened on the other side.
Confirmed.

 

"Confirmed," really?  Please tell me what happens after we die?  

 

Again, there are many things that are unknowable from the grand, like what happened before the big bang, to fantastically small, like where exactly is an electron. 

 

On 5/29/2023 at 4:12 PM, Delano said:

Is there an objective reality.

 

No. Whatever most people believe or what those in power force us to believe is the closest we can come to truth, but it is never universally accepted.  

 

On 5/29/2023 at 4:12 PM, Delano said:

How can we tell if this is reality or a simulation.

 

We can't tell, that would be one of those unknowable things 😉

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Hey @Pioneer1 this priest had an NDE (near death experience) and he reported that he went to hell.  He said, we saw men walking like dogs and heard demons singing Rihanna songs.  Is this the type confirmation you are talking about?  Seriously.

 

@ProfD, if there was confirmation of what would happen after you die, people would forget what is happening in this life and begin preparing for the next one... explains why so many people are already doing that now. 

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On 5/29/2023 at 9:42 AM, Troy said:

If is real for them, while for the majority of the rest of the world something else is "true."

 

How we decide what is true is different for each person, and I'm not convinced it is a completely rational and conscious decision.

 

 

On 5/29/2023 at 9:18 AM, Delano said:

 

What other pathways are there to get the truth or at least identify a falsehood 

 

I think @ProfD's comment about human history is a great point. After thousands of years humans have gathered information and recorded and kept records and patterns can be seen to help us understand more truths. So then, I think, along with experiencing truths, other pathways combined also help at confirming some truths. I love to identify patterns and so, if we cannot confirm falsehoods by experiencing only then, by being able to recognize patterns may also be a pathway to getting at the truth. 

 

And as @Troy mentioned about 'what is rational to one person may not be to another', I do believe that truth can be relative too. However, I also believe that if we are able to live long enough, certain truths become evident. I believe that no one human knows all, so therefore, it is vital to expect that truth will become attainable if you believe that there will be someone else to come along one day and add to your own knowledge and experiences. Expand. 

 

Another important aspect that I also believe is that it is crucial to be both 'group oriented' but also confident as an individual and therefore, anchor yourself. I search for 'an origin', I call it 'a zero point'. I love to contemplate the field of 'Exact Science'; this for me is an incredible PATHWAY to getting at the truth; Things that can be measured helps me to see more truths beyond what I was streamlined to once believe, and this helps me not to get upset if I have to consider something that I thought was truth but then may not be.

 

It feels good to me to already accept that I am NOT perfect because then, I become charged and more willing to fight for perfection. I believe that the pathway to truth is far, far, FAR beyond what I was once conditioned to believe in that my physical life expectancy is the end. No. I am giving myself an infinite timespan to learn more truths. Again though @Delano, this is a deep question and I am still exploring! 

 

On 5/29/2023 at 2:02 PM, Pioneer1 said:

There is a difference between unknow-ABLE and unknow-N
Just because you don't know something, doesn't mean you aren't able TO eventually know it.

 

This is interesting point! 

 

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KNOWING THE TRUTH

The Truth is What you are Convicted of........ weight in a balance against the Race Mind (Collective Unconscious)

Some of the Globes past Great Minds Came to the Conclusion we are all One.

If  we are One then somewhere in You....... you know it's a lie - Tells (Microexpression).

 

 

TRUTH AS IN TRUE.

Two types of  Realities Subjective (Parasympathetic/involuntary) and Objective (Sympathetic/voluntary) They Comprise your Life Experiences.

Two types of Truth  one is a Fact already occurred (past)...Or Predictable (future))

That which has occurred cannot be change.....that which Has been tried and found True (reliable).

 

To which Reality does the Truth you seek belong?

 

 

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Troy

 

 

"Confirmed," really?  Please tell me what happens after we die?  

 

ABSOLUTELY.
Millions of people have died...clinically...and have come back to tell of their experiences.
This is no longer some "myth" but actually scientifically supported.


Since you respect science and education, listen to an actual DOCTOR/SURGEON tell his story of actual death and what he saw on the other side:

 

 

 

As far as what happens....
You might get more information from someone who has actually DIED and came back or from a loved one who has died and has stayed on the otherside if they decide to communicate with you.

But at this point....nobody can INTELLIGENTLY doubt that there is life after physical death.

 

 

 

 

Again, there are many things that are unknowable from the grand, like what happened before the big bang, to fantastically small, like where exactly is an electron. 

 

Just because YOU...as a human being...don't know it or feel you "can't" know it, doesn't mean NO ONE does.

Whether you believe in The SUPREME BEING, Angels, extraterrestrials, etc.....humans shouldn't project THEIR lack of knowledge or limitations on the entire Universe...lol.

 

 

 

 

We can't tell, that would be one of those unknowable things

 

Troy, are you serious?

Think about the logic of this being a simulation but "no one" knows it?
Obviously Whoever created this theoretical simulation would know!

 

 

 

 


Hey @Pioneer1 this priest had an NDE (near death experience) and he reported that he went to hell.  He said, we saw men walking like dogs and heard demons singing Rihanna songs.  Is this the type confirmation you are talking about?  Seriously.

 

Not sure what he saw but if like most NDE's (they aren't "near" death they actually ARE dead briefly) he actually DID DIE...then he saw what he saw.  
Who are we to ridicule what he saw if he indeed died...confirmed by medical authorities...and saw it?

 

 

 

 

 


if there was confirmation of what would happen after you die, people would forget what is happening in this life and begin preparing for the next one... explains why so many people are already doing that now. 

 

Correct.
They ARE doing it and have BEEN doing it.

Almost half of the people you come across believe in some sort of life after death even if they haven't died before.  And they are preparing.  Especially as they get older or if they get sick.

 

 

 

 

 

 


ProfD

 


That's a great question.  If *anybody* could confirm it, I believe the world would be a lot different. 


It has already been confirmed.
Many many MANY have been declared confirmed dead and have come back to life to tell of their experiences.
Not just stories from the past but verified by professionals right now in this time!


Among the ancient Africans and Native Americans and other people of color from around the planet....there was NO QUESTION as to whether their was life after death.
Nearly all the people were certain of it.....until White folks came along with their lying religions and created an atmosphere of mistrust and deception.

 

 

 

 


frankster

 


The Truth is What you are Convicted of.......

 

Truth is objective.
It stands on it's own OUTSIDE of anybody's beliefs

Truth IS what happened....it IS what it is.
....regardless of feelings, beliefs, or misinformation.

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5 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

frankster

 


The Truth is What you are Convicted of.......

 

Truth is objective.
It stands on it's own OUTSIDE of anybody's beliefs

Truth IS what happened....it IS what it is.
....regardless of feelings, beliefs, or misinformation.

All Truth must first be Subjective......It's always your Perspective and Perception.

The Objective is a Projection of the Subjective.....Reality is An interpretation of Stimuli impacting our organs of Perception

What Happened can also be opinion ........just as "what is" can be an interpretation.

We truly have but One Physical Sense and that is "Feelings" but five ways of using .

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3 hours ago, frankster said:

All Truth must first be Subjective......It's always your Perspective and Perception.

The Objective is a Projection of the Subjective.....Reality is An interpretation of Stimuli impacting our organs of Perception

What Happened can also be opinion ........just as "what is" can be an interpretation.

We truly have but One Physical Sense and that is "Feelings" but five ways of using .

 

It must be subjective to the one who DISCOVERS that truth....but it was already there.
It already existed OUTSIDE of a person's perspective and perception.

 

For example.....
Scientists discover million year old bones in the ground.
Those bones existed BEFORE the discovery.  Their knowledge and perception of them had no impact on their existence.

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On 6/2/2023 at 5:13 AM, frankster said:

The Truth is What you are Convicted of........ weight in a balance against the Race Mind (Collective Unconscious)

 

 

On 6/2/2023 at 5:13 AM, frankster said:

If  we are One then somewhere in You....... you know it's a lie - Tells (Microexpression).

Can you elaborate?

 

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11 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

It must be subjective to the one who DISCOVERS that truth.

Thank you

 

11 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

...but it was already there.
It already existed OUTSIDE of a person's perspective and perception.

The Observer Effect implies that when a Phenomenon is being Observed it Changes

 

"states that by the very act of watching, the observer affects the observed reality."

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1998/02/980227055013.htm

 

11 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

For example.....
Scientists discover million year old bones in the ground.
Those bones existed BEFORE the discovery.  Their knowledge and perception of them had no impact on their existence.

Yes.....they existed as Pure Potential.

It is your knowledge and Perception why you say it is a million yrs old bones....some one else may say different.

Our Naming (labelling) it crystalizes into Reality

 

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57 minutes ago, Delano said:
On 6/1/2023 at 3:13 PM, frankster said:

The Truth is What you are Convicted of........ weight in a balance against the Race Mind (Collective Unconscious)

So it seems there are various levels of Truth.

One level is the most convicted....in other words  - Faith.

Reality is What We agree on and is molded by the hands of Conviction

 

57 minutes ago, Delano said:
  On 6/1/2023 at 3:13 PM, frankster said:

If  we are One then somewhere in You....... you know it's a lie - Tells (Microexpression).

Can you elaborate?

This base on the Idea of OverSouls.....Anima Mundi.

Humanity has a Archetype to which all individual Human beings are but a part.

As such there is a level at which we are undifferentiated....At that level deception is Impossible.

Echoes of this Oneness is experience  when we can tell by looking ....exactly what someone else  is experiencing by their expressions(tells)

 

57 minutes ago, Delano said:

 

 

57 minutes ago, Delano said:

 

 

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frankster

I've heard the theory that when something is observed it changes.
I'm sure this is the case when it comes to some conscious and self-aware B/beings being observed.

However that doesn't change the fact that something WAS what it WAS when it was mentioned and before it changed under observation.

 

In other words....

If I say that this flower is tilted to the right.
And when we begin observing it...it starts tilting to the left-
Yes, it moved.
It's now tilting left.
However the FACT/TRUTH was it was tilting to the right, and this lines up perfectly with my observation at THAT time.


Truth doesn't change upon observation.
It remains the same even if it has to be spoken of in PAST tense.

 

 

 

 

Yes.....they existed as Pure Potential.

 

Only if they HYPOTHESIZED or THEORIZED that those bones would be there.
But if they were just blindly digging not knowing WHAT they would find, then no.

 

 

 

 

It is your knowledge and Perception why you say it is a million yrs old bones....some one else may say different.

 

Correct.
However the fact of the bones existing as well as their age REMAINS THE SAME whether we KNOW it, GUESSED it, THEORIZED it, or DON'T KNOW it period.


If the bones are a million years old, they are a million years old regardless as to what the scientists estimate or perceive them to be.

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3 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

I say that this flower is tilted to the right.
And when we begin observing it...it starts tilting to the left-
Yes, it moved.
It's now tilting left.
However the FACT/TRUTH was it was tilting to the right, and this lines up perfectly with my observation at THAT time.

That may only be true from your perspective. This is an instance where being able to think conceptually is useful. Although you are certain that you are right consider the possibility that you are mistaken. And there are conditions that you haven't factored into your assumptions. Let it percolate for a few days a d key me know what you think.

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5 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

frankster

I've heard the theory that when something is observed it changes.
I'm sure this is the case when it comes to some conscious and self-aware B/beings being observed.

However that doesn't change the fact that something WAS what it WAS when it was mentioned and before it changed under observation.

They were not Observing conscious or self aware beings....but Atoms and Photons.

Schrodinger's Cat thought experiment....Only upon observation does the Cat die or live

or

If A tree falls in the forest and there is no one there to hear does it make a sound...No it make no sound until a Ear is there to hear it

 

5 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

In other words....

If I say that this flower is tilted to the right.
And when we begin observing it...it starts tilting to the left-
Yes, it moved.
It's now tilting left.
However the FACT/TRUTH was it was tilting to the right, and this lines up perfectly with my observation at THAT time.


Truth doesn't change upon observation.
It remains the same even if it has to be spoken of in PAST tense.

For two hundred years Gravity was a Force ......Today it's a bend in Space Time.

 

You missing the Point....With observation comes our bias and preconceptions.

Sense Bias...A blind person who  who have never seen a flower will describe it completely different from someone who sees a flower.

conceptual Bias... A Botanist will see a flower quite different from a lay observer.

Your scenario presupposes that I would observe a tilt....I very well may not - optical illusion

We do not observe what's out there.....we interpret what's useful.

 

 

5 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

Yes.....they existed as Pure Potential.

 

Only if they HYPOTHESIZED or THEORIZED that those bones would be there.
But if they were just blindly digging not knowing WHAT they would find, then no.

It doesn't matter whether they hypothesized before ...

As soon as they  observe the find,  they begin to theorize what it is...

 

5 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

it is your knowledge and Perception why you say it is a million yrs old bones....some one else may say different.

 

Correct.
However the fact of the bones existing as well as their age REMAINS THE SAME whether we KNOW it, GUESSED it, THEORIZED it, or DON'T KNOW it period.


If the bones are a million years old, they are a million years old regardless as to what the scientists estimate or perceive them to be.

My responds stands....repetition is neither evidence or proof

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Delano

 


That may only be true from your perspective. This is an instance where being able to think conceptually is useful. Although you are certain that you are right consider the possibility that you are mistaken. And there are conditions that you haven't factored into your assumptions. Let it percolate for a few days a d key me know what you think.


You're right that my scenario focusing on "left/right" is more of a perspective, so let me use the same one but slightly altered.

Let's say the flower was tilting towards the sun...but then started tilting towards the ground upon observation.
Again, the fact that it WAS tilting towards the sun did not change simply because it was tilting towards the grown when WE observed it.

In other words, the TRUTH remains unchanged regardless of observation.

 

 

 

 

frankster

 

 

Schrodinger's Cat thought experiment....Only upon observation does the Cat die or live

 

Which is an ILLOGICAL conclusion....lol....which is why I caution AfroAmericans not to take White people's strange philosophical ponderances TOO seriously.
A lot of the things THEY think are "deep" and highly intellectual actually make little to no logical sense and have no practical use in reality.
 

Our observations of a cat in a box has absolutely NO bearing on whether the cat is living or dead.
Neither does perspective.
If you don't believe this....ask any MEDICAL EXAMINER whether "perspective" has ever brought back a corpse....lol.

 

 

 


If A tree falls in the forest and there is no one there to hear does it make a sound...No it make no sound until a Ear is there to hear it

3 things to consider:
 

1. There's ALWAYS S/someone around to hear it

2. Ears aren't necessary to hear sound

3. What if nobody was around to hear the tree fall but it was being VIDEO/AUDIO recorded while falling and later on the recording was replayed featuring the sound of the fall?


 

 

You missing the Point....With observation comes our bias and preconceptions.
 

I'm not missing THE point, it's simply not MY point.
It may be yours, but it's not the one I'm focused on.
 

I never questioned whether or not observation brought bias or preconceptions.

MY POINT is that truth is truth and it DOES NOT CHANGE based on a person's perspective or observation.


 


Sense Bias...A blind person who  who have never seen a flower will describe it completely different from someone who sees a flower.
 

True.
But the flower didn't change in that blind person's hands.



 


conceptual Bias... A Botanist will see a flower quite different from a lay observer.
 

True.
But the flower itself didn't change when it changed hands from a botanist to a lay person.


 


Your scenario presupposes that I would observe a tilt....I very well may not - optical illusion
 

No it doesn't.
My scenario focuses on the fact that the state of the flower (or illusion) AT the time I described it...remains the same.
Regardless as to how it may have changed once observed.



 

We do not observe what's out there.....we interpret what's useful.
 

We do both.

 

 

 


My responds stands....repetition is neither evidence or proof
 

Common sense shouldn't require proof or even evidence.
The logic of it should be sufficient.
 

Do bones in the ground "not exist" until they are found?
Logic says: Yes, they still do.

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On 6/3/2023 at 8:15 AM, Pioneer1 said:

frankster

 

 

Schrodinger's Cat thought experiment....Only upon observation does the Cat die or live

 

Which is an ILLOGICAL conclusion....lol....which is why I caution AfroAmericans not to take White people's strange philosophical ponderances TOO seriously.
A lot of the things THEY think are "deep" and highly intellectual actually make little to no logical sense and have no practical use in reality.

True Science has nothing to do with Ethnicities(Race)....The experiment was fundamental in understanding the wave function of particles.

 

On 6/3/2023 at 8:15 AM, Pioneer1 said:

Our observations of a cat in a box has absolutely NO bearing on whether the cat is living or dead.

It has nothing to do with the cat but everything to do Observation and the Human Mind

 

On 6/3/2023 at 8:15 AM, Pioneer1 said:

Neither does perspective.
If you don't believe this....ask any MEDICAL EXAMINER whether "perspective" has ever brought back a corpse....lol.

Maybe not....but it definitely saved many a living bodies from turning corpse.

 

On 6/3/2023 at 8:15 AM, Pioneer1 said:

If A tree falls in the forest and there is no one there to hear does it make a sound...No it make no sound until a Ear is there to hear it

3 things to consider:
 

1. There's ALWAYS S/someone around to hear it

2. Ears aren't necessary to hear sound

3. What if nobody was around to hear the tree fall but it was being VIDEO/AUDIO recorded while falling and later on the recording was replayed featuring the sound of the fall?

 

1. Not true...if by someone you mean a human being

2. How can you hear without the apparatus of Hearing

3. Recordings need Ears to hear....you still did not hear the tree fall but a recording.

 

On 6/3/2023 at 8:15 AM, Pioneer1 said:

You missing the Point....With observation comes our bias and preconceptions.
 

I'm not missing THE point, it's simply not MY point.
It may be yours, but it's not the one I'm focused on.
 

I never questioned whether or not observation brought bias or preconceptions.

MY POINT is that truth is truth and it DOES NOT CHANGE based on a person's perspective or observation.

There is a well known Phenomena called Eye Witness (testimony) Bias or Construction....In which two individual sees the same thing or incident and give two different and sometimes conflicting account.

 

On 6/3/2023 at 8:15 AM, Pioneer1 said:

Sense Bias...A blind person who  who have never seen a flower will describe it completely different from someone who sees a flower.
 

True.
But the flower didn't change in that blind person's hands.

True...the flower did not change 

The two observation of the flower will be different.

 

On 6/3/2023 at 8:15 AM, Pioneer1 said:

conceptual Bias... A Botanist will see a flower quite different from a lay observer.

True.
But the flower itself didn't change when it changed hands from a botanist to a lay person.


Your scenario presupposes that I would observe a tilt....I very well may not - optical illusion

No it doesn't.
My scenario focuses on the fact that the state of the flower (or illusion) AT the time I described it...remains the same.
Regardless as to how it may have changed once observed.

The So called objective reality is Pure Potential....what we are learning is that mere observation has an effect on Objectivity causing Change.

 

On 6/3/2023 at 8:15 AM, Pioneer1 said:

We do not observe what's out there.....we interpret what's useful.
 

We do both.


My responds stands....repetition is neither evidence or proof
 

Common sense shouldn't require proof or even evidence.
The logic of it should be sufficient.
 

Do bones in the ground "not exist" until they are found?
Logic says: Yes, they still do.

Maybe not, depending on what and how Time Is .......until it's found and observed it may no exist - Schrodinger's cat

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frankster

 

 

True Science has nothing to do with Ethnicities(Race)....The experiment was fundamental in understanding the wave function of particles.

 

Actually, some science does.
Science means the gathering and organization of facts.

Different ethnicities and races seem to organize and use the facts that they gather differently for different purposes.
So it would be wise to understand these differences and be cautious of how they are used and often weaponized by different races or ethnicities.

 

For example.....
Germans practiced science, but they used their science to harm Jews.

 

 


It has nothing to do with the cat but everything to do Observation and the Human Mind

 

Perhaps you're right.
I'm only roughly familiar with the Schrodinger's Cat  Experiment.  But don't know the details of it.

 

 

 

 

1. Not true...if by someone you mean a human being

 

And I don't mean JUST human beings, which makes my statement true....lol.

 

 

 

2. How can you hear without the apparatus of Hearing

 

How do people hear in their dreams?

 

 

 

 

3. Recordings need Ears to hear....you still did not hear the tree fall but a recording.

 

The point wasn't whether you HEARD it....the point was, it made a sound that your ear captured LATER.
But it DID make a sound when it fell.

 

 

 

 

There is a well known Phenomena called Eye Witness (testimony) Bias or Construction....In which two individual sees the same thing or incident and give two different and sometimes conflicting account.

 

Two different testimonies form two different perspectives.
But the SAME INCIDENT occurred.
There weren't two different incidents but only one....with an almost infinite amount of perspectives it could have been observed from.

 

 

 

 


True...the flower did not change 

The two observation of the flower will be different.

 

True.
That's the point I was trying to make.

 

 

 

 


Maybe not, depending on what and how Time Is .......until it's found and observed it may no exist - Schrodinger's cat

 

Too deep for me....lol.

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1 hour ago, Pioneer1 said:


frankster

 

 

True Science has nothing to do with Ethnicities(Race)....The experiment was fundamental in understanding the wave function of particles.

 

Actually, some science does.
Science means the gathering and organization of facts.

Different ethnicities and races seem to organize and use the facts that they gather differently for different purposes.
So it would be wise to understand these differences and be cautious of how they are used and often weaponized by different races or ethnicities.

 

For example.....
Germans practiced science, but they used their science to harm Jews.

It is in the "Gathering" of hopefully the same "Facts" wherein so called race makes no difference.

The Organizing and Use to which it is put is usually different.

 

 

1 hour ago, Pioneer1 said:

It has nothing to do with the cat but everything to do Observation and the Human Mind

 

Perhaps you're right.
I'm only roughly familiar with the Schrodinger's Cat  Experiment.  But don't know the details of it.

I am

 

1 hour ago, Pioneer1 said:

1. Not true...if by someone you mean a human being

 

And I don't mean JUST human beings, which makes my statement true....lol.

If so then you should not have used the term someone....gotch ya

 

1 hour ago, Pioneer1 said:

2. How can you hear without the apparatus of Hearing

 

How do people hear in their dreams?

Because they have Ears and Memory

 

 

1 hour ago, Pioneer1 said:

3. Recordings need Ears to hear....you still did not hear the tree fall but a recording.

 

The point wasn't whether you HEARD it....the point was, it made a sound that your ear captured LATER.
But it DID make a sound when it fell.

No recorders only record  the effects of vibrations.

 

1 hour ago, Pioneer1 said:

There is a well known Phenomena called Eye Witness (testimony) Bias or Construction....In which two individual sees the same thing or incident and give two different and sometimes conflicting account.

 

Two different testimonies form two different perspectives.
But the SAME INCIDENT occurred.
There weren't two different incidents but only one....with an almost infinite amount of perspectives it could have been observed from.

Exactly....we all do not observe the same way

 

1 hour ago, Pioneer1 said:

True...the flower did not change 

The two observation of the flower will be different.

 

True.
That's the point I was trying to make.

Well that is true.....The flower did not change for You

Observer effects is saying that our perception of the flower has an effect that can be measured.

 

 

1 hour ago, Pioneer1 said:

Maybe not, depending on what and how Time Is .......until it's found and observed it may no exist - Schrodinger's cat

 

Too deep for me....lol.

The whole topic is too deep for me.....but i make and attempt regardless.

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On 6/3/2023 at 1:13 AM, Delano said:

This is an instance where being able to think conceptually is useful. Although you are certain that you are right consider the possibility that you are mistaken. And there are conditions that you haven't factored into your assumptions.

 

I don't think it is an inability to think conceptually ... well there are degrees to this and @Pioneer1 has demonstrated some level of this ability.  There are two issues here; (1) he is very rigid in his thinking; and (2) he will freely formulate opinions on subjects he admittedly does not know much about where a bit more reading on the subject would help modify or even completely change a previously held.  

 

This does not make Pioneer bad or unusual -- indeed if makes him an interesting participant.  Just don't ever expect him to change his position on any subject. I believe he perceives changing one's position as a weakness. 😉

 

On 6/2/2023 at 5:30 PM, frankster said:

states that by the very act of watching, the observer affects the observed reality.”

 

As you probably know, this only applies at the quantum level and not at the level we can observe in the "real" world. Though this has not stopped new-agey-spirtualists from suggesting that it does.

 

I think the biggest take-away from this conversation is that: Our observations do not make something true.”

 

The image below is pretty popular, but I'll share it to make a point.  If we look at the square labelled "A" and "B" we would say they are very different shades of gray-- not even close.  The "truth" is they are exactly the same color.  The frst time I saw this I did not believe it to be true; I had to print it out and put the squares next to each other to be convinced.

teaser-adelson-01.jpg

 

Every human sense can be tricked in this way. 

 

People say believe half of what you see

Son and none of what you hear

But I can’t help but be confused

If it’s true please tell me dear

 

This is why I'm cautious when dealing with social media as the pin heads behind their algorithms understand this better than anyone.  People are convinced they are immune to the control of social media algorithms.  If no one ever said the A and B squares were actually the same color, we would have had no incentive to check and would have happy continues with our distorted view of reality.

 

Here is an video that does a good job of explaining the "cat" thought experiment.

 

 

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6 hours ago, Troy said:

 

As you probably know, this only applies at the quantum level and not at the level we can observe in the "real" world. Though this has not stopped new-agey-spirtualists from suggesting that it does.

True

The Quantum is a basic part of Our Observable reality.

The Spiritual among us holds as true the Maxim " As above so below" Matthew 6:10.

 

6 hours ago, Troy said:

 

I think the biggest take-away from this conversation is that: Our observations do not make something true.”

 

Agreed

 

6 hours ago, Troy said:

The image below is pretty popular, but I'll share it to make a point.  If we look at the square labelled "A" and "B" we would say they are very different shades of gray-- not even close.  The "truth" is they are exactly the same color.  The frst time I saw this I did not believe it to be true; I had to print it out and put the squares next to each other to be convinced.

teaser-adelson-01.jpg

 

Every human sense can be tricked in this way. 

 

People say believe half of what you see

Son and none of what you hear

But I can’t help but be confused

If it’s true please tell me dear

 

This is why I'm cautious when dealing with social media as the pin heads behind their algorithms understand this better than anyone.  People are convinced they are immune to the control of social media algorithms.  If no one ever said the A and B squares were actually the same color, we would have had no incentive to check and would have happy continues with our distorted view of reality.

True

 

6 hours ago, Troy said:

 

Here is an video that does a good job of explaining the "cat" thought experiment.

 

 

As a corollary the Double slit experiment shows that Atoms (seemingly) know when they are being Observe and behave differently.... which has led to the idea that reality as we know it comes into Being when we Observe a thing....(Of course they are more factors involve).

Once the Cat is no longer being Observed it is in Wave Form....Is it still a cat or only a Potential Cat?

Atoms tend to be in the  Wave Form when not  being Observed.....Once Observe Atoms they  then it collapse into  Particle Form.

The Change from Wave to Particle is the act of creation of Reality.

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The double slit experiment looks at photons not atoms.

 

23 hours ago, frankster said:

.... which has led to the idea that reality as we know it comes into Being when we Observe a thing....

 

Yes, but this is where people get into trouble making these leaps.  this is not what the double slit experiment shows.  

 

The cats don't exist in wave form when not observed.  They would not form an interference pattern if we shot them through slits 😉 

 

 

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10 hours ago, Troy said:

The double slit experiment looks at photons not atoms.

Researchers have sent molecules containing either 58 or 114 atoms through the so-called "double-slit experiment," showing that they cause an interference pattern that can only be explained if the particles act like waves of water, rather than tiny marbles.

https://www.livescience.com/19268-quantum-double-slit-experiment-largest-molecules.html

 

10 hours ago, Troy said:

 

 

Yes, but this is where people get into trouble making these leaps.  this is not what the double slit experiment shows.  

 

The cats don't exist in wave form when not observed.  They would not form an interference pattern if we shot them through slits 😉 

 

 

What we do know is that our physical bodies consist of atoms that do...this directly address our conventional idea of reality.

Maybe Cats do not exist in wave  form when not observed.....but the Atoms they consist of do - how then is this reconcile with reality?

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Fascinating. I was unaware of the double slit  experiment being done with anything other that photons or electrons the experiment https://www.researchgate.net/publication/221975884_Real-time_single-molecule_imaging_of_quantum_interference is indeed pushing the boundaries between quantum and classical physics.

 

 You learn something new every day 🙂

 

When they replicate the experiment with BBs, marbles, or anything that can be seen with the naked eye, my head will explode.

 

4 hours ago, frankster said:

…how then is this reconcile with reality?


oh that is not a problem because there are many differences between the macro and quantum worlds that have not been reconciled.

 

That goes back to @Delano’s question; how do you know something is true? This  is essentially the same question as what is reality?

 

Our senses are not sophisticated enough to observe, or even understand, reality therefore we can’t know what is true. 


Maybe when Chat GPT is 200 times as intelligent as Imhotep, it can  explain realistic to us 😉

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7 hours ago, Troy said:

Fascinating. I was unaware of the double slit  experiment being done with anything other that photons or electrons the experiment https://www.researchgate.net/publication/221975884_Real-time_single-molecule_imaging_of_quantum_interference is indeed pushing the boundaries between quantum and classical physics.

 

 You learn something new every day 🙂

Yes we do....

 

7 hours ago, Troy said:

When they replicate the experiment with BBs, marbles, or anything that can be seen with the naked eye, my head will explode.

Then you need to check out the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle it explains the Problem of Measuring large objects..

 

7 hours ago, Troy said:

 


oh that is not a problem because there are many differences between the macro and quantum worlds that have not been reconciled.

 

That goes back to @Delano’s question; how do you know something is true? This  is essentially the same question as what is reality?

 

Our senses are not sophisticated enough to observe, or even understand, reality therefore we can’t know what is true. 


Maybe when Chat GPT is 200 times as intelligent as Imhotep, it can  explain realistic to us 😉

My very first response was to say truth is what you are "Convicted of"...Meaning that Reality as in True is a matter of Consciousness - Biocentrism(Lanza).

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frankster

 

 

It is in the "Gathering" of hopefully the same "Facts" wherein so called race makes no difference.

 

Are you saying race makes no difference in the gathering process of facts?

 

 


If so then you should not have used the term someone....gotch ya

 

Why not?
Someone is an ACCURATE term for the non-human B/beings I was referring to.

 

 

 

 

Because they have Ears and Memory

 

Lol...dreams are NOT the same as "memories".
Many if not most dreams are circumstances that haven't even occurred in the waking person's life, so how can it be their memory.

 

Further.....
Yes the dreamer has ears, but the only thing their ears should be hearing during their sleep is whatever is going on in their immediate area.
Not the voice of people they're talking to in their dreams or the sounds of music, airplanes, cars, and other attractions that they're dreaming about.

Yet they hear them in their dreams as clearly....usually MORE clearly...as with their ears in waking life.

 

 

 

 


No recorders only record  the effects of vibrations.

 

Well hell, if you want to use the "vibrations" argument, the same could be said of a person standing right next TO the tree when it falls...lol.
All physical sound is vibration.

 

 

 


Observer effects is saying that our perception of the flower has an effect that can be measured.

 

....and that, I agree with.
But this is COMPLETELY different than the assertion that the object ITSELF changes based on observation.

 

 

 

 

The whole topic is too deep for me.....but i make and attempt regardless.

 

LOL.

 

 


 

 

 


Troy

 


I don't think it is an inability to think conceptually ... well there are degrees to this and @Pioneer1 has demonstrated some level of this ability.  There are two issues here; (1) he is very rigid in his thinking; and (2) he will freely formulate opinions on subjects he admittedly does not know much about where a bit more reading on the subject would help modify or even completely change a previously held.  

 

This does not make Pioneer bad or unusual -- indeed if makes him an interesting participant.  Just don't ever expect him to change his position on any subject. I believe he perceives changing one's position as a weakness.

 

....all of this comes from my disagreement with you on the concept of multiple races.

You seem to be OBSESSED with the idea that there is only one and refused to acknowledge the scientifically proven fact that there are several, lol.

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9 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

frankster

 

 

It is in the "Gathering" of hopefully the same "Facts" wherein so called race makes no difference.

 

Are you saying race makes no difference in the gathering process of facts?

If race makes a difference in either the "gathering" or Interpretation of Facts....Then it Propaganda.

 

9 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

If so then you should not have used the term someone....gotch ya

 

Why not?
Someone is an ACCURATE term for the non-human B/beings I was referring to.

How so?

 

9 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

Because they have Ears and Memory

 

Lol...dreams are NOT the same as "memories".
Many if not most dreams are circumstances that haven't even occurred in the waking person's life, so how can it be their memory.

The Memory of Sound and Ideations.

 

9 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

Further.....
Yes the dreamer has ears, but the only thing their ears should be hearing during their sleep is whatever is going on in their immediate area.

Yes

 

9 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

Not the voice of people they're talking to in their dreams or the sounds of music, airplanes, cars, and other attractions that they're dreaming about.

Yet they hear them in their dreams as clearly....usually MORE clearly...as with their ears in waking life.

Its Pure Mentation/Memory of Sound...as there are no actual people(/music/airplanes or cars) talking(making those sounds) in their dream

Or are you saying their are an actual people(/music/airplanes or cars) in their dream?

If the people are not actual(as in real) why then would the sound be Actual(real in the conventional sense of the meaning of the word).

 

9 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

No recorders only record  the effects of vibrations.

 

Well hell, if you want to use the "vibrations" argument, the same could be said of a person standing right next TO the tree when it falls...lol.
All physical sound is vibration.

Ears turning vibrations  into Sound as Eyes turn Vibration in to Sight

Everything is One form of Vibration or the Other it is our Senses that make then somewhat Distinct and Recognizable.

 

9 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

Observer effects is saying that our perception of the flower has an effect that can be measured.

 

....and that, I agree with.
But this is COMPLETELY different than the assertion that the object ITSELF changes based on observation.

Our Observation of the Flower is in a sense its creation(subjective) and another's Observation of the flower is another creation of the same flower - hence changed..

Both Observation of the flower is not the same...Personal Bias

The Flower is Pure Potential....That Collective (Un)Consciousness has Projected from its Subjective bias thru Naming(Resonant Frequency)

 

9 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

The whole topic is too deep for me.....but i make and attempt regardless.

 

LOL.

It's Fun

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frankster

 

 


If race makes a difference in either the "gathering" or Interpretation of Facts....Then it Propaganda.

 

Correct

 

 

 

 

 

How so?

 

Because The SUPREME BEING hears it, other non-human Deities hear it, Spirits that probably were never human hear it, and animals hear it.

 

 

 

 

 


The Memory of Sound and Ideations

 

The visuals, sounds, and feelings you get in a dream don't give the impression or feelings you get sitting down "thinking" of a memory of the past.

You actually EXPERIENCE your dream.
For all intents and purposes...your Soul is actually there.


When you THINK about a lemon, you have to put forth considerable effort to "see" it and "smell" it and "taste" it to the point your mouth waters.
But when you DREAM about one....you just see it and pick it up and taste the full flavor with little or no effort.

 

 

 

 

 

Its Pure Mentation/Memory of Sound...as there are no actual people(/music/airplanes or cars) talking(making those sounds) in their dream

Or are you saying their are an actual people(/music/airplanes or cars) in their dream?

 

Yes, I believe so.

 

 

 

 

 


Ears turning vibrations  into Sound as Eyes turn Vibration in to Sight

 

Do the ears TURN the vibration into sound....or do the ears DETECT the sound that was already there?


Do the eyes TURN photons into sight....or do the eyes DETECT the sight that was already there?


My understanding is that there is a difference between the object and the vibration the object is experiencing and giving off.

 

 

 

 

 


Our Observation of the Flower is in a sense its creation(subjective) and another's Observation of the flower is another creation of the same flower - hence changed..

 

Hmmmm......
I would say that the observation of the flower by another could be a creation of ANOTHER IMAGINATIVE flower in that person's imagination.
But not another creation in THIS Reality.

 

In other words......

If I look at a flower and see it one way, then the IMAGE of it has been created in my mind a particular way.
If you look at the same flower and see it another way, then THAT IMAGE has been created in your mind in another way.
However THAT ORIGINAL FLOWER hasn't change...it still is what it was.

 

 

 

 


Both Observation of the flower is not the same...Personal Bias

 

I agree.

 

 

 

 


The Flower is Pure Potential....That Collective (Un)Consciousness has Projected from its Subjective bias thru Naming(Resonant Frequency)

 

Not sure if I follow, however if I understand this correctly.....I'd have to disagree that it's "pure potential".

It's a constant ACTUAL with numerous potentials.

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12 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:


frankster

 

if race makes a difference in either the "gathering" or Interpretation of Facts....Then it Propaganda.

 

Correct

Thank You 

 

12 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

How so?

 

Because The SUPREME BEING hears it, other non-human Deities hear it, Spirits that probably were never human hear it, and animals hear it.

The definition of the word "someone" is typically of a human being....Deities and Spirits  are not considered  human beings though they maybe mistaken for One.

 

12 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

The Memory of Sound and Ideations

 

The visuals, sounds, and feelings you get in a dream don't give the impression or feelings you get sitting down "thinking" of a memory of the past.

You actually EXPERIENCE your dream.
For all intents and purposes...your Soul is actually there.

Yes....But the Physical Body the Conscious(waking) mind remains asleep and there is nothing within earshot that is producing those sounds

 

12 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

When you THINK about a lemon, you have to put forth considerable effort to "see" it and "smell" it and "taste" it to the point your mouth waters.
But when you DREAM about one....you just see it and pick it up and taste the full flavor with little or no effort.

True....The Mental censor that curate/create this Waking Reality is in abeyance whilst One is asleep....different Rules now applies.

 

12 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

Its Pure Mentation/Memory of Sound...as there are no actual people(/music/airplanes or cars) talking(making those sounds) in their dream

Or are you saying their are an actual people(/music/airplanes or cars) in their dream?

 

Yes, I believe so.

If You believe its pure mentation/memory then - Thank you

If not.

If you believe there was actual people in your dream then go ask them if they also remember the incident or see if the cars and planes are where you left them.

One of worst kind of dreams i have had was that of finding money only to wake up and realize it is but a dream.

 

12 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

Ears turning vibrations  into Sound as Eyes turn Vibration in to Sight

 

Do the ears TURN the vibration into sound....or do the ears DETECT the sound that was already there?


Do the eyes TURN photons into sight....or do the eyes DETECT the sight that was already there?


My understanding is that there is a difference between the object and the vibration the object is experiencing and giving off.

Yes...Ears turn vibrations into sound and eyes turn vibration into sight - Synesthesia

The Object is the Vibration(pure Potentiality) 

 

What Color is Tuesday? exploring Synesthesia - Richard E Cytowic.

 

12 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

Our Observation of the Flower is in a sense its creation(subjective) and another's Observation of the flower is another creation of the same flower - hence changed..

 

Hmmmm......
I would say that the observation of the flower by another could be a creation of ANOTHER IMAGINATIVE flower in that person's imagination.
But not another creation in THIS Reality.

This Reality is a Shared Reality.

 

12 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

In other words......

If I look at a flower and see it one way, then the IMAGE of it has been created in my mind a particular way.
If you look at the same flower and see it another way, then THAT IMAGE has been created in your mind in another way.
However THAT ORIGINAL FLOWER hasn't change...it still is what it was.

There is no Flower only Pure Potential

"With our Thoughts we Create the World" - Buddha

 

12 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

Both Observation of the flower is not the same...Personal Bias

 

I agree.

Thank you.

 

12 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

The Flower is Pure Potential....That Collective (Un)Consciousness has Projected from its Subjective bias thru Naming(Resonant Frequency)

 

Not sure if I follow, however if I understand this correctly.....I'd have to disagree that it's "pure potential".

It's a constant ACTUAL with numerous potentials.

This Our Shared Reality is Pure Undifferentiate Vibration....Once a Potential has been Name(observe) it collapses into a Packet Called an Atom losing its Wave Function and is now a Resonant Frequency in this Shared Reality.

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frankster

 

 

 

Thank You 

 

You're welcomed.

 


The definition of the word "someone" is typically of a human being.

 

(smile)  True.  It "typically" is.

 

 

 

 

 

Yes....But the Physical Body the Conscious(waking) mind remains asleep and there is nothing within earshot that is producing those sounds

 

There is nothing in THIS Reality that is producing the sounds in the dream.  But in the Reality of the dream itself...certainly Beings and things ARE producing sounds.

If I'm dreaming of a car, the car IN the dream IS producing the sound.

 

 

 

 

 

True....The Mental censor that curate/create this Waking Reality is in abeyance whilst One is asleep....different Rules now applies.

 

Ofcourse different rules apply.
You're in a different Reality.

People often FLY in their dreams where they can't fly in this Reality.

 

 

 

 

If You believe its pure mentation/memory then - Thank you
If not.

 

....and I don't, lol.


Memories are of something that ALREADY happened in the past.
Most dreams aren't about things that ALREADY happened but the person feels they are actively in the situation RIGHT NOW talking to the person RIGHT NOW.
Infact...rather than recalling events of the past....some dreams actually foretell the FUTURE!

 

 

 

If you believe there was actual people in your dream then go ask them if they also remember the incident or see if the cars and planes are where you left them.

 

This depends if the people IN your dream are also part of THIS Reality also.

Sometimes the people you dream about only exist in THAT Reality you are dreaming in.
Other times, the people you dream about USED TO exist in this Reality but they died and now only exist in the Reality you dreamt them in.
And in other times....yes...the people you dream about DO exist in this Reality and you can often confirm things with them and they can enter your dreams and you can enter theirs.

 

 

 

 

 


One of worst kind of dreams i have had was that of finding money only to wake up and realize it is but a dream.

 

LOL.

Well, you might have to learn how to control your dreams so that you can enjoy IN THAT DREAM the money you had IN THAT DREAM...lol.

 

 

 

 

 


This Reality is a Shared Reality.

 

I agree.

 

 

 

 


There is no Flower only Pure Potential

"With our Thoughts we Create the World" - Buddha

 

I'm not a Buddhist....lol...so I don't mind saying I can't say I agree with this statement as it is.

I believe we can INFLUENCE the world with our thoughts but to "create" the world is a stretch.

 

My idea of "creating" means to bring something into existence out of pure nothing.

Thus...it can be argued that everything IN this world has ALREADY been created and we are just DESIGNING it and FASHIONING it from material that has already been brought into existence.

 

 

 

 

Thank you.

 

You're welcomed

 

 

 

 

 


This Our Shared Reality is Pure Undifferentiate Vibration....Once a Potential has been Name(observe) it collapses into a Packet Called an Atom losing its Wave Function and is now a Resonant Frequency in this Shared Reality.

 

Althought I understood what you typed, I don't understand ENOUGH about it to agree or disagree with.

Western science is JUST NOW understanding the nature of vibration and the impact it's having on this Reality.  They are still in their infancy if not embryonic stage.  
I won't take their theories and run with them quite yet...lol.

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11 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:

frankster

 

 

 

Thank You 

 

You're welcomed.

 


The definition of the word "someone" is typically of a human being.

 

(smile)  True.  It "typically" is.

Yes....Hence a human Being

 

11 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:

Yes....But the Physical Body the Conscious(waking) mind remains asleep and there is nothing within earshot that is producing those sounds

 

There is nothing in THIS Reality that is producing the sounds in the dream.  

Thank you

 

11 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:

But in the Reality of the dream itself...certainly Beings and things ARE producing sounds.

If I'm dreaming of a car, the car IN the dream IS producing the sound.

In the Dream Reality it is Memory of sound applied to Create and or Reflect Seeming Shared Reality.

 

 

11 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:

True....The Mental censor that curate/create this Waking Reality is in abeyance whilst One is asleep....different Rules now applies.

 

Ofcourse different rules apply.
You're in a different Reality.

People often FLY in their dreams where they can't fly in this Reality.

In Dream Reality....You as in your Physical Body, is Not there in your dream, so you as in your physical body is Not Flying in your dream.

In Dream reality you only appear "Physical" Hence different Rules Applies....Physicality and all its attributes do Not apply.

Similiarily You only seemed to be Hearing

Dream Reality The Form Consciousness Takes is sometimes Referred to as Astral/Etheric/Double or Lucid Body.

Its Attributes are different from the Physical Body's Attributes.

 

11 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:

If You believe its pure mentation/memory then - Thank you
If not.

 

....and I don't, lol.


Memories are of something that ALREADY happened in the past.

Yes..

 

11 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:

Most dreams aren't about things that ALREADY happened but the person feels they are actively in the situation RIGHT NOW talking to the person RIGHT NOW.
Infact...rather than recalling events of the past....some dreams actually foretell the FUTURE!

Dream Reality Has its own Attributes.....One in Which Time and Space do Not Exist - Only its Memory.

In Dream Reality another Attribute is Bits of Memory is often recreated in New and Novel forms to convey meaning....While in Shared Reality Memory is Linear and Sequential.

 

 

11 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:

if you believe there was actual people in your dream then go ask them if they also remember the incident or see if the cars and planes are where you left them.

 

This depends if the people IN your dream are also part of THIS Reality also.

Yes....If they do then ask then about the incidents of the dream.

 

11 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:

Sometimes the people you dream about only exist in THAT Reality you are dreaming in.

If so they are a Novel and New recreation of Memory.

 

11 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:


Other times, the people you dream about USED TO exist in this Reality but they died and now only exist in the Reality you dreamt them in.

Memory and Recreated Memory....You are the Dream and all Aspects of Dream are a part of You.

 

11 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:

And in other times....yes...the people you dream about DO exist in this Reality and you can often confirm things with them and they can enter your dreams and you can enter theirs.

 

 

11 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:

One of worst kind of dreams i have had was that of finding money only to wake up and realize it is but a dream.

 

LOL.

Well, you might have to learn how to control your dreams so that you can enjoy IN THAT DREAM the money you had IN THAT DREAM...lol.

Oh! I did.

 

11 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:

This Reality is a Shared Reality.

 

I agree.

Thank You.

 

11 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:

There is no Flower only Pure Potential

"With our Thoughts we Create the World" - Buddha

 

I'm not a Buddhist....lol...so I don't mind saying I can't say I agree with this statement as it is.

I believe we can INFLUENCE the world with our thoughts but to "create" the world is a stretch.

The Extent of the Influence is Vast according many Spiritual Leaders and a Few Scientist

 

11 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:

My idea of "creating" means to bring something into existence out of pure nothing.

There is no such thing as "Nothing"... The "Thing" in "Nothing" is Pure Potenial.

 

11 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:

Thus...it can be argued that everything IN this world has ALREADY been created and we are just DESIGNING it and FASHIONING it from material that has already been brought into existence.

Yes...Naming

 

11 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:

Thank you.

 

You're welcomed

I feel appreciated.

 

11 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:

This Our Shared Reality is Pure Undifferentiate Vibration....Once a Potential has been Name(observe) it collapses into a Packet Called an Atom losing its Wave Function and is now a Resonant Frequency in this Shared Reality.

 

Althought I understood what you typed, I don't understand ENOUGH about it to agree or disagree with.

Western science is JUST NOW understanding the nature of vibration and the impact it's having on this Reality.  They are still in their infancy if not embryonic stage.  
I won't take their theories and run with them quite yet...lol.

African and Eastern Spiritual Movements and Systems seems to be way ahead in this regard.

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frankster

 

 


Thank you

 

You're welcomed

 

 

 

In the Dream Reality it is Memory of sound applied to Create and or Reflect Seeming Shared Reality.

 

In the Dream Reality, the only role "memory" has in making you familiar with the sound you're hearing NOW (in the dream) because you heard it before in the past while you were awake.

Same with people.

If you're conversing with someone you know or have known in a dream...it's not your "memory" that you're conversing with them.
Because most likely you're talking about and doing things you HAVE NOT talked about and HAVE NOT done yet in the waking state.
So how is it a "memory"?

 

No...the only role "memory" has is as a reference so that you are FAMILIAR with what or who you are dealing with in the dream state.

 

And some Beings or people you have NOT met in the waking state so there is no "memory" of them.

You've been to places in your dreams you've NEVER been to in this Reality...so how can it be a "memory"?????

 

 

 

 

 


In Dream Reality....You as in your Physical Body, is Not there in your dream, so you as in your physical body is Not Flying in your dream.

 

I would have to differ.
Most people who fly in their dreams have observed that they are in A physical body flying.
They just aren't in the physical body of THIS Reality.

 

 

 

 

In Dream reality you only appear "Physical" Hence different Rules Applies....Physicality and all its attributes do Not apply.

 

Some mystics would argue that you ARE physical.

 

 

 

 

 

Similiarily You only seemed to be Hearing

 

Lol.

Is the OBSERVATION of an observation the same AS it?
 

 

 

 

Its Attributes are different from the Physical Body's Attributes.

 

I can agree somewhat.

 

 

 

 


Yes..

 

So Dreams are clearly more than memories since most of the time they are of things that haven't happened before.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Dream Reality Has its own Attributes.....One in Which Time and Space do Not Exist - Only its Memory.

 

Time and space DO exist in the Dream Realities.
They just don't always necessarily line up with the time and space in THIS Reality.

What seems like days in a Dream Reality may take place in 20 minutes in THIS Reality.
But it does exist.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Memory and Recreated Memory....You are the Dream and all Aspects of Dream are a part of You

 

This is Caucasian/Western theoretical and philosophical interpretation of dreams.
Which I don't ascribe to.

I think Carl Jung proposed the same assertions

 

White psychiatrists, psychologists, and Philosophists are basically trying to say dreams are strictly creations or concoctions of the dreamer's mind.

Ancient wisdom knows better and says that dreams are your Soul literally entering another Reality or Realities while your physical body in this Reality is at rest.


Study the concept of DREAM TIME among the Aboriginees of Australia.

 

 

 

 

Oh! I did.

 

Well, there you go!

 

 

 

 

 

Thank You.

 

You're welcomed

 

 

 

 

The Extent of the Influence is Vast according many Spiritual Leaders and a Few Scientist

 

Very vast.
There are a limited number of spices one can cook with...probably less than 500.
But the HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of different combinations we can come up with to make different dishes is amazing!

Everybody has their own mind and most can use the power of their minds to INFLUENCE the world by using the material that already exists in it to reshape the world.

Yet they didn't bring any of this basic material INTO existence, it already existed.

 

 

 

 

 

African and Eastern Spiritual Movements and Systems seems to be way ahead in this regard.

 

Yes, which is why I'm skeptical and for the most part mistrustful of Western psychology and philosophy when it comes to Spiritual matters.

 

Not only are they behind....
Most Western scholars know more of the truth than they actually put out for the public.  They actually purposely put out trash and disinformation they KNOW isn't true in order to confuse the masses....while they hold on to the little truth they DO have and try to keep it secret.

They knew the truth about Dreams 1000 years ago....but purposely put lies and silly philosophical questions out for the masses to argue over.

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30 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:

frankster

 

 


Thank you

 

You're welcomed

 

 

 

In the Dream Reality it is Memory of sound applied to Create and or Reflect Seeming Shared Reality.

 

In the Dream Reality, the only role "memory" has in making you familiar with the sound you're hearing NOW (in the dream) because you heard it before in the past while you were awake.

True....But Not "only"

 

30 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:

Same with people.

If you're conversing with someone you know or have known in a dream...it's not your "memory" that you're conversing with them.

You are using bits and pieces of your memory to create a message

 

30 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:

Because most likely you're talking about and doing things you HAVE NOT talked about and HAVE NOT done yet in the waking state.
So how is it a "memory"?

In Dream Reality Time  as in Now is not the same in its Attributes as in Shared Physical Reality......Neither are you Aware of all that you Know.

 

30 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:

No...the only role "memory" has is as a reference so that you are FAMILIAR with what or who you are dealing with in the dream state.

The very infrastructure of Dream Reality is perceived through Memory...

 

30 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:

And some Beings or people you have NOT met in the waking state so there is no "memory" of them.

You've been to places in your dreams you've NEVER been to in this Reality...so how can it be a "memory"?????

There are Many States of Consciousness....We are talking about the Dream State - REM(Delta Brain Waves)

A Deeper(Theta Brain Waves) or Other State  Of Consciousness  can have you meeting  with Beings.....That is not Dream Reality - A whole other set of Rules apply.

Sound as we Know is Only exists in Physical Reality....It is believe communication exist via Telepathy

 

30 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:

In Dream Reality....You as in your Physical Body, is Not there in your dream, so you as in your physical body is Not Flying in your dream.

 

I would have to differ.
Most people who fly in their dreams have observed that they are in A physical body flying.
They just aren't in the physical body of THIS Reality.

Only Physical Reality has Physical Bodies.....Whatever body they were using to fly in their dream - was not physical not matter how much it looks and feel physical.

The Movement Talking Characters and Structures you see on a screen in a movie house is not real.....they only look real.

 

30 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:

n Dream reality you only appear "Physical" Hence different Rules Applies....Physicality and all its attributes do Not apply.

 

Some mystics would argue that you ARE physical.

Real as in Spiritual....but not physical as we understand Physicality

 

30 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

Similiarily You only seemed to be Hearing

 

Lol.

Is the OBSERVATION of an observation the same AS it?

 

An Observation is an Observation whether or Not it is of an Observation....Each Observation is In a sense Individual.

 

30 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:

Its Attributes are different from the Physical Body's Attributes.

 

I can agree somewhat.

Yes..

 

So Dreams are clearly more than memories since most of the time they are of things that haven't happened before.

Time as we know is not the same in Dreams.....Bits of Memory can be use to create seemingly new information - Ideations

 

30 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

Dream Reality Has its own Attributes.....One in Which Time and Space do Not Exist - Only its Memory.

 

Time and space DO exist in the Dream Realities.
They just don't always necessarily line up with the time and space in THIS Reality.

What seems like days in a Dream Reality may take place in 20 minutes in THIS Reality.
But it does exist.

It is a function of Memory and Familiarity...Dream Reality Time is not Linear or Sequential.

Time and location change from moment to moment instantly. 

 

 

30 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:

Memory and Recreated Memory....You are the Dream and all Aspects of Dream are a part of You

 

This is Caucasian/Western theoretical and philosophical interpretation of dreams.
Which I don't ascribe to.

I think Carl Jung proposed the same assertions

They Align with many Dream Cultures.

 

30 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

White psychiatrists, psychologists, and Philosophists are basically trying to say dreams are strictly creations or concoctions of the dreamer's mind.

Ancient wisdom knows better and says that dreams are your Soul literally entering another Reality or Realities while your physical body in this Reality is at rest.


Study the concept of DREAM TIME among the Aboriginees of Australia.

I have Read up on many Dream Reality Traditions - Tibetan Dream Yoga and Senoi Dream Theory 

 

30 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

Oh! I did.

 

Well, there you go!

It was Money well spend even though it was a dream.

 

30 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:

Thank You.

 

You're welcomed

 

The Extent of the Influence is Vast according many Spiritual Leaders and a Few Scientist

 

Very vast.
There are a limited number of spices one can cook with...probably less than 500.
But the HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of different combinations we can come up with to make different dishes is amazing!

Everybody has their own mind and most can use the power of their minds to INFLUENCE the world by using the material that already exists in it to reshape the world.

Yet they didn't bring any of this basic material INTO existence, it already existed.

In The Physical Shared Reality this is True....Pure Undifferentiated Potential (Wave Function) all Possibilities can be Realized(reality) - Collapse into a Particle.

That is what science is realizing....We Do Create Reality - Buddha was and is Right.

 

 

30 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:

African and Eastern Spiritual Movements and Systems seems to be way ahead in this regard.

 

Yes, which is why I'm skeptical and for the most part mistrustful of Western psychology and philosophy when it comes to Spiritual matters.

 

Not only are they behind....
Most Western scholars know more of the truth than they actually put out for the public.  They actually purposely put out trash and disinformation they KNOW isn't true in order to confuse the masses....while they hold on to the little truth they DO have and try to keep it secret.

They knew the truth about Dreams 1000 years ago....but purposely put lies and silly philosophical questions out for the masses to argue over.

Give Thanks for the Light

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