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Poverty is an American Problem, not Black one


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Poverty in AmericaIf this site were not solely fixated on Black books I would promote Poverty, by America by Matthew Desmond (Amazon is discounting the book by 37%)

 

“The United States, the richest country on earth, has more poverty than any other advanced democracy. Why? Why does this land of plenty allow one in every eight of its children to go without basic necessities, permit scores of its citizens to live and die on the streets, and authorize its corporations to pay poverty wages?”

 

Desmond also wrote another critically acclaimed book, Evicted (which Amazon is selling for 42% off--less than my wholesale discount!).

 

This is not a "Black" problem as many would portray, but an American problem.  Black folk just catch pneumonia when white America catches a cold... But increasingly we are all are getting Covid.

 

White man live in a country that has provided them with benefits due to their race and gender, but they are living in poverty in alarming numbers.  Black folks of any status call this a waste of white skin.

 

It is no wonder that white men are angry and killing themselves and overdosing in record numbers.

 

They, like everyone else, is poorly educated and targets of propaganda.  They are led to believe they are lacking in some inherent way or worse it is some other group like the liberals, the Blacks, Mexicans, the non-Christinans or some other group that is also being victimized by the same forces

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Troy said:

White man live in a country that has provided them with benefits due to their race and gender, but they are living in poverty in alarming numbers.  Black folks of any status call this a waste of white skin.

A white man could get up off his sofa, shave, shower, put on a suit and apply for a job. He'd either replace minorities or be their boss in less than 6 months.😁

 

Many white folks don't have to be in poverty here in America. They have chosen to remain or be poor.

 

There's no other reason to explain why poor white folks vote against their best interests. Unless the threat/promise of keeping Black folks beneath them is a benefit.

 

There's a reason the media doesn't run around America showing a bunch of broke, dirty and dysfunctional white folks either.

 

Poverty in America is real.  But, it's not an American problem. It's a self-inflicted wound especially for white folks.😎

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Well...from the quote you shared @Troy my problem is the perspective of the author?  

 

Quote

“The United States, the richest country on earth, has more poverty than any other advanced democracy. Why? Why does this land of plenty allow one in every eight of its children to go without basic necessities, permit scores of its citizens to live and die on the streets, and authorize its corporations to pay poverty wages?”

 

The first question in my mind is all the terms he uses. Are they truthful/functional/Lies/half truths and if so what is the truthful part? 

 

What makes the usa the richest country on earth? define riches to any country? if china is the second richest and the usa is the first then define riches?  

What defines an advanced democracy? a rule of the people that used to be before , a rule of the people for the future, is advanced democracy? does that apply to the usa? or the others mentioned aside it? Is that a wish or a hope or the truth?

Does the usa government allow fiscal poverty, or permit people to live in the streets? Or is poverty or people living in the streets natural to the usa ? Is a legal interpretation of the usa allow for the usa to be deemed allowing poverty? 

Who are the children of the usa? Are the children of the usa, citizens of the usa? how do the people who live in the usa feel toward the usa? does that matter? do those who live under a government viewpoint matter? how does go along with the rule of the people assertion?

Does the usa government authorize firms to pay laborers less than to live on?

 

Gardless to the authors or anyone elses answers of said questions the author's perceptions to said questions are mandatory before he begins the book. 

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1 hour ago, ProfD said:

Many white folks don't have to be in poverty here in America. They have chosen to remain or be poor.

 

See that is the same reasoning the use with us. if you listen to the video, you will get some insight into why this is not true -- unless of course you actually believe that millions of people want to live in poverty.

 

 

1 hour ago, richardmurray said:

What makes the usa the richest country on earth?

 

 Generally, this is measured as a function of GDP, but you can use the wealth of the population.  I'm not understating the reasoning behind your inquires.  Most of the question you asked can be looked up.

 

@richardmurray do you think (or anyone) feel that anyone in the good 'ole US of A be without running waler, a toilet that flushes, or health insurance, and if they don't have these things it must be completely their fault?

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@richardmurray

The point in my questions wasn't in any answers to them.

that is why i said. 

Quote

Are they truthful/functional/Lies/half truths and if so what is the truthful part? 

You accept all the questions I answered have an answer on the internet or in some book but I argue all of those questions have multiple acceptable answers. And that is my point about what you quoted. 

 

Quote

do you think (or anyone) feel that anyone in the good 'ole US of A be without running waler, a toilet that flushes, or health insurance, and if they don't have these things it must be completely their fault?

The usa is a country of fiscal capitalism , a system that generates fiscal poverty by default, by default. it isn't unnatural or government agenda or government allowance for fiscally poor people to be in any fiscal capitalistic country. It is natural for fiscal capitalistic countries to have mostly fiscal poor. I use NYC as the easiest example. NYC has always been mostly fiscal poor people from the time of new amsterdam to today, through all the financial ups and downs of the city [gilded age/pre 1920 stock market crash/1980s / 1950s post world war NYC was mostly poor people for all the financial opulence in the stated areas]. The reason is simple. The fiscal capitalism in NYC. So to use the words in your question, I personally never blamed and do not blame fiscal poor people for being fiscal poor in the usa or any fiscal capitalistic country.

 

As MLK jr said , a video i posted a few times in this community, I couldn't find the post so I shared it direct

 

In a country where 90% of fiscal wealth is inherited, I find it odd that black people whose forebears were enslaved thus could offer no fiscal inheritance need the video above said in various forms over and over. and yes, to your point, most whites have no inheritance either, but the problem is phenotypical bias played and plays a role in the history of inheritance to blacks sequentially, phenotypical race makes poverty like all other issues in the usa a split issue. 

 

and please check your private messages troy

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10 hours ago, Troy said:

See that is the same reasoning the use with us. if you listen to the video, you will get some insight into why this is not true -- unless of course you actually believe that millions of people want to live in poverty.

I watched/listened to the video.

 

The conditions that put Black folks in poverty and make it harder to get out are different than it is for white folks.

 

Black folks don't own the avenues to generating income nor do we have direct access to power.

 

OTOH, if the millions of whiite folk living in poverty stood together and demanded better wages or living conditions, it could happen for them faster than anyone else.😎

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Thanks Troy for posting this and making the point. Whites are poor because of exploitation and lack of economic opportunity especially in the suburbs and rural areas. Meanwhile Black people are poor because of systemic racism and economic injustice. We bear the added burden of race. If poor and working class whites could get past racism, anti statism, and a kind of radical individualism there might be a chance to change America for the better.

 

Ultimately Capitalism unless it is reformed in big ways will generate lots of poverty. It has to be free enough generate growth yet restrained to an extent that it's fair and beneficial for everyone not just the rich owners of capital. The problem with Americans,  unlike people in Western Europe who wisely embraced Social Democracy, is that we don't like or want that kind of government action to tame Capitalism or spread its benefits. Add racism and its systemic component to this mix and its not hard to see why poverty is such a huge problem in America.

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I'd like to second what the Professor said, that most White folks who are in poverty in the United States CHOOSE to be in poverty for one reason or another.

 

Most White Americans have a rich uncle or rich grandmother or someone in their family with wealth whom they haven't talked to in years after a fight over Thanksgiving or Christmas Dinner.

All they have to do is go over and apologize to them and all is forgiven and they'd get a $5 million loan to start a damn company.

 

Most Black Americans don't have that option.

 

I've been homeless before and I know from first hand observation that most homeless Black folks have next to nothing.
They are really barely getting by and on the street forced to beg.
But most White homeless people have resources and people trying to help them but they often REFUSE the help out of pride and arrogance and not wanting to be told what to do or for political reasons like not wanting to live around Black folks or Latinos.
Others don't like "the government" and refuse to take what they consider a "hand out" from them or some other crazy ass belief.

 

Others do it as a fad called "slumming" but later on clean up and start making money .

 

You simply can not compare White poverty with Black poverty.
They usually have different reasons and require different solutions to solve.


Another thing is, not all "poor" White folks are actually poor.
Many of them are PRETENDING to be poor in for law enforcement and politically deceptive purposes.

A young White cop will hang out at a homeless shelter or sleep on the street just to get to know as many Black drug dealers and users so he can identify them later on to other officials.


In reality, the same thing actually goes for most Latinos.
Their poverty isn't the same as ours.
As poor as a Mexican or Guatemalan is....they usually have the option of giving up and finally leaving America to go back home where they will live a better life.

Black Americans don't have the option to just "pick up and leave" unless they came from an African nation.


In my opinion.....
We should be concerned with helping OURSELVES first and foremost and once we get on our feet and have enough wealth to sustain ourselves and our children...then we can focus on the needs of others.
 

 

 

 

 

Kenneth

 

 

If poor and working class whites could get past racism, anti statism, and a kind of radical individualism there might be a chance to change America for the better.

 

That's like saying if dogs would learn to stop running around  biting people and pissing on other people's property, there would be no need to spend so much money buying leashes and we wouldn't have to keep them confined behind fences!

While this is true, it's not likely to happen anytime soon....lol.


Just like barking, biting, and marking their territory is part of a dog's nature....racism and hatred is part of White identity in general.
It's part of their genetic and psychological make-up.

You don't focus on CHANGING them....you focus on  ADAPTING to them by having a code of your own that allows you to be Successful INSPITE of their opposition!
 

In my opinion, it's a waste of time to continue expecting  White folks magically change their mentality and behavior.
Instead, we should accept that they are how they are and focus on designing and building a culture and code that allows us to navigate through and over-come their racism and hatred and be SUCCESSFUL.

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4 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

In my opinion, it's a waste of time to continue expecting  White folks magically change their mentality and behavior.
Instead, we should accept that they are how they are and focus on designing and building a culture and code that allows us to navigate through and over-come their racism and hatred and be SUCCESSFUL.

Agreed.

 

For too long, Black folks have been like an abused spouse in a dysfunctional relationship with white folks.

 

Black folks expecting white folks to be nice and kind and to stop hauling off and slapping the sh8t outta of them or handing out black eyes. Then, having nerve to ask for s8x later.🤣

 

White folks are totally on code when it comes to anti-Black sentiment and maintaining the system of racism.😎

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Most of our people can't fathom the fact that White people collectively....including most of the "poor" ones actually SUPPORT the very system that keeps so many people in poverty and destitution.

It's like Black folks at a job constantly offering White managers ideas to improve the job and make the situation better....but their ideas constantly get ignored.
They have YET to "get it" that the White managers WANT things on the job to be a certain way for their own specific reasons.
They don't want improvement....they want things to stay as they are because they make money "solving problems" that they made up themselves.

The same with society in general.
Many of the problems in this society like poverty and disease and injustice are CAUSED by the very White people who claim they are trying to solve them.

If YOU as a Black person want to do something about poverty.....then DO IT.
Stop trying to appeal to White folks to help you or accept your ideas when they know more about poverty and the causes of it than YOU.
You can't tell them shit....they wrote the book on it.
Just DO YOU.
 

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22 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

In my opinion, it's a waste of time to continue expecting  White folks magically change their mentality and behavior.


you didn’t notice that the video was two white men talking to each other? 
 

22 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

It's part of their genetic and psychological make-up.


there is no reason to believe that there is a genetic basis for racism. Now clearly, there’s a psychological one why people are racist based upon cultural propaganda.

 

On 11/18/2023 at 3:22 AM, richardmurray said:

I argue all of those questions have multiple acceptable answers.


OK, for the sake of clarity, let’s just pick one question editor raised that I’ve addressed; what makes the United States of America is the richest nation in the country? Is that truthful? What are the multiple acceptable answers? This strikes me as binary, either we are, or we are not.


 

18 hours ago, ProfD said:

White folks are totally on code when it comes to anti-Black sentiment and maintaining the system of racism.😎


@ProfD you watched the video of white men talking. it is unclear to me how you can believe what you wrote. Are these two white boys “on code.”

 

Of course where men have advantages, of course Black people have suffered hundreds of years of oppression in this country.

 

Obviously, those differences have made it much more difficult for Black people to achieve the gains that white people have. Of course, there are individual exceptions. There are white people who are poorer than the average black person, and there are Black people who are wealthier than the average white person. 
 

but the real problem in my opinion that has prevented Black people, and even white people from enjoying the benefits of a nation’s wealth is unfettered capitalism.

 

another reason of the problem is a poorly educated population. There are some people (looking at Pioneer) for example, who believe that monopolies are good for society this is not a question of multiple acceptable answers. Monopolies are bad. The idea that this is now up for debate is why we find it difficult to solve the problems of poverty.

 

We are completely confused about poverty’s causes, so solutions will naturally evade us.

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Troy

I can't speak for others but I'm not confused on many of the causes of poverty.
I know many of the causes VERY well.
Which is why I'm beyond questioning why White people aren't doing more to prevent it or alteast alleviate it.

I know they are CAUSING it and DESIRE it's presence.

 

 

 

 Monopolies are bad. The idea that this is now up for debate is why we find it difficult to solve the problems of poverty.

So if we completely eliminate monopolies.....that will eliminate poverty?

 

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We don't value or pay workers like maids, janitors, home health, childcare workers, cashiers, or fast food employees.

 

We wrongly disdain politicians and hate taxes while complaining about how messed up society is because government doesn't take care of people at home over foreigners and immigrants. 

 

We idolalize rich people and wealth while never questioning certain negative things it takes to get rich and stay that way.

 

All of this cuts across racial lines and is true of ordinary working people who are the key to changing things. The problem is with all of us to some extent.

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Kenneth


We don't value or pay workers like maids, janitors, home health, childcare workers, cashiers, or fast food employees.

 

We wrongly disdain politicians and hate taxes while complaining about how messed up society is because government doesn't take care of people at home over foreigners and immigrants. 

 

We idolalize rich people and wealth while never questioning certain negative things it takes to get rich and stay that way.


Although I understand what you're saying, I wouldn't be so liberal with the word "we"...lol.

 

You and I have LIMITED control and say-so over how much these healthcare workers, cashiers, teachers, and maids actually get paid.
We don't own most of the companies they work for or set the standard wages/salaries.
Those who DO....should bare the brunt of responsibility for their lack of adequate compensation or appreciation.

 

I don't believe in COLLECTIVE punishment.
I believe those who are actually responsible for the misdeed should get the reprimand....not the entire society at large.

 

 

 

All of this cuts across racial lines and is true of ordinary working people who are the key to changing things. The problem is with all of us to some extent.

 

You're right.
However "to some extent" is the key term!
The extent is determined by the level of authority and power on holds.

We can't make this an "all lives matter" issue where people want to hug and embrace EVERYBODY and try to help them out.

 

And again, most White people...including the same White people actually WORKING these low wage jobs...actually WANT things this way.

 

I don't know how many times I've gotten into arguments with White folks working on the same job as me over wages and how much we should be getting paid.
Whether working at a fast food joint or a Home Depot or stocking boxes at Target....the vast majority of the White workers receiving those low wages AGREE to them and  what turns them off the most is hearing a Black man complain about the wages or conditions of the jobs.

 

Like I said, most White folks WANT things this way.
They don't even want Universal Healthcare.
They'd rather keep the system the way it is rather than have a Universal Healthcare system that allowed Black and Brown folks to receive the same standard of health-care they receive.

 

 

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5 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

I know they are CAUSING it and DESIRE it's presence.


The people causing poverty are obviously not bothered by its presence.

 

I think it is irrational to say that people in poverty want to be in poverty. over the course of my life. I’ve been upper middle class and in poverty I don’t know anyone who was in poverty that actually wanted to be in that situation, and I definitely didn’t know anyone who is upper middle class that would rather be impoverished, that should be common sense. The fact that I have to say it is telling. 

 

5 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

So if we completely eliminate monopolies.....that will eliminate poverty?


Man, there is no gray area with you huh? No, I do not think that eliminating monopolies would Eliminate poverty. However, I do believe it would help a great deal.

 

I also believe that the same companies currently holding monopolies if they paid their fair share of taxes, that would also help and if the  government use those taxes in ways to directly address poverty, all of that would help. But these things were addressed in the video why they don’t resonate is interesting.

 

I do believe a better understanding of why monopolies are indeed bad would help. I also think understanding how the wealthy and corporations avoid paying their fair share of taxes and how the tax code actually benefits them should make anyone angry with the way our tax dollars are extracted and used.

 

1 hour ago, Pioneer1 said:

Like I said, most White folks WANT things this way.
They don't even want Universal Healthcare.
They'd rather keep the system the way it is rather than have a Universal Healthcare system that allowed Black and Brown folks to receive the same standard of health-care they receive.


The people who think this way are victims of a poor education system, propaganda, and I probably of below average intelligence.

 

there are too many productive people in our country without adequate healthcare, the numbers of people with healthcare is misleading because much of what we have is terrible or expensive. The only time I had decent healthcare was when I worked in corporate in America
 

If you consider the fact that Premium healthcare is tied directly to working for some corporation who does that benefit? Why is it like that?

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Troy

I'm curious...........
If we somehow were able to eliminate all monopolies overnight, by how much (percentage wise) do you think poverty would drop in a year or decade?

Hypothetical but serious question.

I'm trying to figure out how big of an impact you think it would have on poverty.

 

 

I also believe that the same companies currently holding monopolies if they paid their fair share of taxes, that would also help and if the  government use those taxes in ways to directly address poverty, all of that would help.

 

If.....lol....if....


If corporations paid their fair share of taxes.
And if the government used those taxes in ways to address poverty
And if the government wouldn't send so much of that money to other nations like Ukraine by the billions
And if the government would establish Universal Health Care
And if companies would pay a decent wage
And if people getting out of prison could get decent jobs and not have their records held against them
And if housing were affordable
And if there was no more housing or job discrimination
 

.....if I looked like Denzel Washington and if I had a Maserati, trust me......I wouldn't be at home on the internet right now, lol.

 

 

 

 I also think understanding how the wealthy and corporations avoid paying their fair share of taxes and how the tax code actually benefits them should make anyone angry with the way our tax dollars are extracted and used.

So you think people should be angrier with the wealthy and corporations over trying to keep their money than with the politicians who are the ones who are actually GIVING AWAY the nations money by the billions to other nations and illegal immigrants who have no business here?

 

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9 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

If we somehow were able to eliminate all monopolies overnight, by how much (percentage wise) do you think poverty would drop in a year or decade?


I simply don’t know. 
 

i know if if we did not kill each other as much we would collectively be better off but by what percentage I have no way of knowing. No one does. 
 

again you think monopolies are not a problem. if I pulled some percentage out of thin air it would make no difference to you, so why ask?

 

 

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17 hours ago, Troy said:


@ProfD you watched the video of white men talking. it is unclear to me how you can believe what you wrote. Are these two white boys “on code.”

Those white men are still on code as long they aren't trying to tear down the system of racism white supremacy.

 

Otherwise, those dudes are just talking about a problem with zero interest in solving it because they don't want lose their daily bread. 😎

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@Troy

 

Quote

OK, for the sake of clarity, let’s just pick one question editor raised that I’ve addressed; what makes the United States of America is the richest nation in the country? Is that truthful? What are the multiple acceptable answers? This strikes me as binary, either we are, or we are not.

Ok, 

What makes the United States of America the richest government in humanity? 

 

I said in my first comment <  https://aalbc.com/tc/topic/10668-poverty-is-an-american-problem-not-black-one/?do=findComment&comment=64167 >

 

Quote

define riches to any country? if china is the second richest and the usa is the first then define riches?  

The multiple acceptable answers are based on what people define as wealth. Is it gold or natural resources? Is it modern , 11/20/2023 , financial evaluation? Is it land? Is it military power?  today, China or russia have more natural resources. Today, russia alone has the most land of any human government. Today, the USA has the largest military power of any human government. Modern financial evaluation is based on military power and defined through contrived calculations. What I define as wealth doesn't matter. But I know that many people define wealth differently from me and that doesn't make them wrong or me right, but the variance matters in discussing the existence, generation or distribution of an absence of wealth , ala poverty. My point is the book itself has flaws not from its content but its premise. And why? only if the reader agrees to the author's answers to said questions can a reader agree to the content. If someone is devout to some religion, which I am not, and measured wealth through some piety, this book's underlying positions don't work. 

And as I tend to always ask, who is we?   I have never viewed the government of the usa as reflecting the populace under it. To be blunt, the native american has never been represented by the usa. I think it is an negative insult to history  suggesting that.  

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Troy

 

 

again you think monopolies are not a problem. if I pulled some percentage out of thin air it would make no difference to you, so why ask?

 

I ask because you started this thread with the focus on POVERTY and it being a problem for both races.
But then you drag "monopoly" into the discussion.

 

I asked, simply to see how big of a role...if any....monopolies play in keeping people in or expanding poverty.

 

 

 

 


richardmurray

 

There are MANY things that makes the U.S. the richest and most powerful nation on the planet.
Ofcourse one of them is our military.


But another is the fact that we have the strongest economy of any nation on the planet and although it's DEFENDED by the military, it's not FUELED by the military.

What fuels this economy and made it the most powerful of any nation is US....Black Americans.

 

We add "culture" and "style" to this nation.
We set the trends and make it a place people want to come to and live in.

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On 11/25/2023 at 7:53 AM, Pioneer1 said:

I ask because you started this thread with the focus on POVERTY and it being a problem for both races.
But then you drag "monopoly" into the discussion.

 

Yes because I know monopolies put downward pressure on the prosperity of the masses, through lower wages and higher priced good.  I'm just not prepared to be able to distill the impact into a percentage, maybe some economist out there has done this.

 

Since you believe monopolies are good, please tell me what percentage our wealth is a function of monopolies.

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Troy

I don't see monopolies as necessarily good OR bad.
They are what they are....depending on the circumstances.


It's like arguing whether or not cars are good or bad.
If you ask most people, they'll say cars are good.
If you ask victims of serious car accidents, some of them probably wish cars were never invented.


But relatively speaking, a monopoly by default IS good....for the firm who actually holds it.

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On 11/27/2023 at 4:13 PM, Troy said:

 

OK. Please provide an example of one such business.


WALMART   😏

It's a one stop anchor and community center in nearly every small town in the U.S.

I've been to Wal-Marts down South and nearly EVERYBODY in the community does business at the local Wal-Mart.
Shop for food.
Shop for household items.
Get their hair cut
Eat at the various fast food joints each one hosts.
Get lunch or dinner at the deli
Get licenses.
Wire money
Get and send mail.
The list goes on.........
 

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Of course, monopolies are good for the owners; though I would argue, in the long run, monopolies are bad for them too.

 

I read somewhere that 85% of the people in the US live within 25 miles of a Walmart.  Walmart is a massive company and in small communities can put smaller competitors out of business, but Walmart is FAR from a monopoly, with single digit market share.

 

In my neighborhood, I do visit Walmart but only because they are the only place that sells the large box of Swaggerty's sausages. Otherwise, I shop at Costco, Target, Winn Dixie, Aldi, Publix, etc.  Walmart is not my only choice; indeed it is not even at the top of my list.  If it disappears tomorrow the community would be little changed.  The employees could easily find work elsewhere and maybe even make more money.

 

Again, I'm not sure you are clear on what a monopoly, so it is like the race discussing race, vaccinations, or climate change with you.

 

Technically there are probably no pure monopolies but there are plenty of examples that are much closer.  Care to try again?

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Troy

Try again for what?

According to this quote:
 

8 hours ago, Troy said:

Of course, monopolies are good for the owners;


.....you pretty much agree with my statement, lol.
 

 

"But relatively speaking, a monopoly by default IS good....for the firm who actually holds it."

 

 

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Wal-Mart would probably be considered a benevolent monopoly to Americans.  

 

As brotha Troy pointed out, Wal-Mart led to other stores going out of business. 

 

OTOH, Wal-Mart single-handedly boosted the economy of the areas in which they chose to open stores.

 

As @Pioneer1 mentioned, Wal-Mart started in rural areas where it was was a one stop shop.  Convenient for people who had to travel longer distances to get things done.

 

In those areas, families could spend a whole day in Wal-Mart taking care of business.  They could also find employment there.

 

Wal-Mart gradually expanded into suburban and urban areas as demand for lower priced items increased. 

 

The emergence of Wal-Mart encouraged other discount retailers to cash out and either invest in other business ventures or retire.😎

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