EconomicCorner012

[richardmurray]

This economic corner is a manipulation of a dialog between me side @ProfD side @Troy I felt it is warranted because the post it was started in is about Black Owned Websites and while the overall dialog with Troy maintained a focus on black websites, the dialog between me side profd did not. So I placed my replies to their post within the multilog, with no demand to a reply. 

A majority of blacks in the usa are individualist and that isn't  a negative thing. It is something born from being in majority terrorized by whites from the early 1500s to circa 1980. Black people have done everything possible in the usa to nonviolently grow. Everything possible. The failure was in who black people existed nonviolently next to, non blacks. Now in 2025 in the usa I think it is clear from the black 1% or the black financially wealthy, black elected officials, black places of worship, that the black people with the most financial wealth or access to power or resources are individualist. Actions speak louder than words. So, when it comes to group actions across 50 states, I argue all those are foolish endeavors in modernity. The old black populace in the usa is dead and is never coming back. And that is fine. 

Black communalism in the usa isn't dead but it is local, tribal. So to a black website in the usa or any communal activity in the usa , they are all best as tribal acts. The faith in nonviolent communalism is silly, unwarranted. 

I don't know if anyone notices but for a while I don't use the term "black community in the usa" cause for me that is a lie. The black populace in the usa exist. but the black populace is not a community. And I repeat, that isn't a bad thing. It is warranted. The Black populace spent a solid one hundred years in the usa , being communal like no other people on earth at the same time , or very few in human history, and white power crushed it all. yes, some will argue, try again, but that is silly or stupid. Black people in the usa repeated anything someone black says needs to happen multiple in the past as a community, white power crushed it all. No need for the black populace in the usa to try again all the things that failed in the usa by way of white power. 

If you are black in the usa, embrace your small tribe, or embrace individualism but stop all the unwarranted talk about the larger populace doing communal action. Look positive to the future in a new road, a wise road, a financially more honest road. 

IN AMENDMENT

Troy suggested the specific issue of black websites but it is a general affair so I placed it here alongside anything I have to say as it isn't specific to the black websites issue. 

 

THE DIALOG BETWEEN ME SIDE PROFD SIDE TROY

 

https://aalbc.com/tc/topic/11462-is-black-twitter-still-a-thing/#findComment-71601

 

@ProfD

  On 2/6/2025 at 11:02 AM, ProfD said:

 find it mind-boggling that Black brain-power and wealth are not working together to create our own platforms. 

 

I find it disturbing that Black folks are perfectly fine with enriching white folks at every level.  Social media platforms is one example.

If individualism is the majority position among Black people with the revenue or resources to invest in owning a website fit for modern esocial activity, then it does make sense. I don't think an individualist sees it as enriching a community, they see it as an individual investment. If you are individualist, you don't see your actions as part of any populace in humanity, only the larger humanity itself. 

@Troy

  On 2/6/2025 at 5:30 PM, Troy said:

It takes a ton of money to run a robust social media platform capable of supporting even tens of thousands of users -- let alone hundreds of millions of users globally. So, any site we use will need serious funding and only comes from investors who believe there will be serious returns on their investment.

thank you, too often black folk seem to think investment in things just needs pennies from the black poor. Something require grand investment

 

To @ProfD + @Troy

  On 2/6/2025 at 6:16 PM, ProfD said:

Black folks invest a whole lot of money in churches though.  Maybe we need to call the Black platform Hallelujah

 

  On 2/8/2025 at 11:25 AM, Troy said:

That is actually a Great idea man a Christian social media site, surely one most already exist.

I found on first page search only the following 

http://www.blackandchristian.com/

Its funny facebook was started through colleges, Historical black colleges through the fraternities or sororities can idealistically do similar. 

 

https://aalbc.com/tc/topic/11462-is-black-twitter-still-a-thing/#findComment-71607

 

  On 2/9/2025 at 9:56 PM, richardmurray said:

I found on first page search only the following 

http://www.blackandchristian.com/

That website is defaulted. It has not been maintained for years and the length to the forms is broken. The fact that it ranks well in search seems to indicate there is no active website in the space. I wonder if there’s even a desire for one. I suspect most church communities have their own websites and online social platforms.

 

  On 2/8/2025 at 12:00 PM, ProfD said:

Regardless of religious affiliation, I was thinking that could be the name of a Black-owned platform equivalent of Tw8tter (X)

Well, from the example that Richard provided the idea of a Black Christian website didn’t seem to work. As far as a black on website, the equivalent of what’s already out there we already know that won’t work at least not originating in the US.

 

  On 2/9/2025 at 9:56 PM, richardmurray said:

I don't think an individualist sees it as enriching a community, they see it as an individual investment.

Of course anyone buying in stock in Meta or Alphabet are doing so to make money for themselves. Now, while  Facebook makes itself out itself as bringing in the world closer together people don’t invest in them for that they invest solely to make money.

 

There are other businesses types that are mission, driven B corps and not for profits. people invest in them to improve society, but those aren’t the organizations that make all that make money for investors or create wealth. 
 

It has been suggested buy some, that AALBC should become a not for profit.

 

https://aalbc.com/tc/topic/11462-is-black-twitter-still-a-thing/#findComment-71608

@Troy

  On 2/10/2025 at 10:30 AM, Troy said:

The fact that it ranks well in search seems to indicate there is no active website in the space. I wonder if there’s even a desire for one. I suspect most church communities have their own websites and online social platforms.

Local Churches historically tend to be competitive to each other, they may share a similar faith but they rarely like to share prominence.

Well, youtube tried short videos before tiktok was created and it didn't catch fire. so, what that one scenario proves is, the packaging/algorithm/style of such a website is key. People like websites when it offers a simple straight forward interface while provides an aspect to communication online that they didn't have before, not necessarily as a tool , but in the style of the tool. 

I think "HAlleluyah" can work, but imagination will be needed in how it operates.

I argue AALBC should stay for profit but it will be wise if you have a contingency plan for non profit upon your death or some bad situation

 

https://aalbc.com/tc/topic/11462-is-black-twitter-still-a-thing/#findComment-71609

  On 2/10/2025 at 10:30 AM, Troy said:

As far as a black on website, the equivalent of what’s already out there we already know that won’t work at least not originating in the US.

Again, I was not advocating for a Black Christian website or platform. 

 

That's not my thing as the resident agnostic around here.

 

Half-Jokingly, I only used the name Hallelujah because many Black folks would check it out due to upbringing.

 

  On 2/9/2025 at 9:56 PM, richardmurray said:

thank you, too often black folk seem to think investment in things just needs pennies from the black poor. Something require grand investment

 

Many poor people still give church offerings, smoke cigarettes, drink alcohol and do drugs and shop.  So, they can contribute along with other investors.

 

https://aalbc.com/tc/topic/11462-is-black-twitter-still-a-thing/#findComment-71610

 

@ProfD

  On 2/10/2025 at 12:14 PM, ProfD said:

So, they can contribute along with other investors.

Can they? 

I don't smoke cigarettes, but I know cigarettes cost money, so if a human being, likes smoking cigerattes and they are a financially poor person, they probably don't have money to invest in a website, even if what they can invest is not even a miniscule fraction of a percent of the funds needed .

 

https://aalbc.com/tc/topic/11462-is-black-twitter-still-a-thing/#findComment-71611

  On 2/10/2025 at 5:55 PM, richardmurray said:

 

Can they? 

Yes they can.

  On 2/10/2025 at 5:55 PM, richardmurray said:

...so if a human being, likes smoking cigerattes and they are a financially poor person, they probably don't have money to invest in a website, even if what they can invest is not even a miniscule fraction of a percent of the funds needed .

Reads like you're making excuses.

 

Where I come from, I know for a fact that poor people know how find money.

 

Obviously, not enough money to become rich or wealthy in most cases. But, it's enough to maintain habits.

 

Many campaigns are funded by small money donors. Some churches operate the same way. It adds up.

https://aalbc.com/tc/topic/11462-is-black-twitter-still-a-thing/#findComment-71614

@ProfDnot an excuse, being happy isn't an excuse to anything.

if any human being does something that makes them happy, they want to do that more right. At least for me, i will rather be happy than sad and i think any other human will rather be happy than sad. So fi your happiness is an expense , you still need it and some investment into something that will not lead to you being happy will not be maintained for long. 

yes example of consistent small donors to certain financial endeavors exist, but to be even, cause the dialog is swaying away from the theme of the topic... my original quotes were in concert with Troy's concerning black twitter, more specifically websites, online websites, it wasn't a generalization. and in an endeavor like a website big donors are mandatory , needed. Not one heavily followed website had small donors. throughout its history. That isn't laziness or an accident or something small donors can undo, it is the reality, big donors are needed for any website to grow a certain size. And to the current environment , many websites even after massive financial investment are failures. Look at china really. The blunt truth is that western european countries/japan/india/russia all have websites to their local markets but none were like china, willing to invest enough to get websites that are global brands. And it took money for that, not small donors of the chinese people. Rich chinese so I repeat my point to troy: too often black folk seem to think investment in things just needs pennies from the black poor.  and I amend, that is not true. 

Black pennies from the black poor is good for local, local defined as city region or town level investments. A house/ a community center/a retail shop/small scale operations. that are bounded to the region of a city or a town. But if you want industry leading firms across the usa, with over three hundred and fifty million people or moreover humanity, the black rich not the black pennies from the black poor have to be the primary investors. 

 

https://aalbc.com/tc/topic/11462-is-black-twitter-still-a-thing/#findComment-71618

  21 hours ago, richardmurray said:

@ProfDnot an excuse, being happy isn't an excuse to anything.

if any human being does something that makes them happy, they want to do that more right. At least for me, i will rather be happy than sad and i think any other human will rather be happy than sad. So fi your happiness is an expense , you still need it and some investment into something that will not lead to you being happy will not be maintained for long. 

Right.

 

Reminds me of people who claim they want to lose weight but refuse to diet and exercise because eating makes them happy.

 

Instead of a gym membership, the overweight person who claims they want to lose weight would rather spend that money on more food and snacks. 

 

A pack of cigarettes in NYC costs $13 dollars. That's almost 1 hour of minimum wage work.

 

If we're serious about it, 4 million Black people investing $25 dollars (2 packs of cigarettes in NYC or a large pizza) in a business venture adds up to $100 million dollars.

https://aalbc.com/tc/topic/11462-is-black-twitter-still-a-thing/#findComment-71621

@ProfD

  21 hours ago, ProfD said:

A pack of cigarettes in NYC costs $13 dollars. That's almost 1 hour of minimum wage work.

it's funny, i haven't heard of a person buying a pack of cigarettes in a very long time in nyc. I see people buying singles at stores or asking for singles from their fellows or strangers. A pack? no one has money for a pack Profd. that fact that you suggested that ... you haven't been in a place like nyc in a long time have you? I don't get snap but many are complaining about snap benefits ending.

...I repeat, because it is important, black pennies will not do it. Do you know across the demographic board of NYC, if the school food program goes under, half of the children in nyc's schools, not just black, the non black as well whom you like to suggest so financially astute, will go hungry, across the board 50% , fifty percent of the children in public school.

  21 hours ago, ProfD said:

 

If we're serious about it, 4 million Black people investing $25 dollars (2 packs of cigarettes in NYC or a large pizza) in a business venture adds up to $100 million dollars.

 I will love to know who has bought two packs of cigarettes in a month in nyc ? only people with money in the first place are doing that.  but you get to the nitty gritty. 

Who is going to be in control fo that hundred million dollars? Profd? It will not be me. who? obama? sharpton? mrs obama? clarence thomas? who? historical black colleges?

I can't name one black individual or group in the usa who has the desire+ imagination+trust to do anything with 100 million. if it was gathered.

This goes back to our million man march dialog. Assuming someone had the trust or could gain the trust, trust must be earned, of five hundred thousand black men  who attended the march , with your $25 dollar assumption, that twelve million and five hundred dollars? but who canthose 5000,00 trust? you? me ?  iargue none class.

https://aalbc.com/tc/topic/11462-is-black-twitter-still-a-thing/#findComment-71627

 19 hours ago, richardmurray said:

@ProfD

it's funny, i haven't heard of a person buying a pack of cigarettes in a very long time in nyc. I see people buying singles at stores or asking for singles from their fellows or strangers. A pack? no one has money for a pack Profd. that fact that you suggested that ... you haven't been in a place like nyc in a long time have you?

You're missing the point but it's OK. 

 

I was just in NYC last year. Saw Black folks spending money too.

 

  19 hours ago, richardmurray said:

n in nyc's schools, not just black, the non black as well whom you like to suggest so financially astute, will go hungry, across the board 50% , fifty percent of the children in public school.

NYC is the same place spending millions of dollars housing illegal immigrants. They could easily feed the children if ut was a priority.

 

  19 hours ago, richardmurray said:

 Who is going to be in control fo that hundred million dollars? Profd?

 

I can't name one black individual or group in the usa who has the desire+ imagination+trust to do anything with 100 million.

Right. Therein lies the biggest obstacle.

 

On one hand, you don't 1) believe Black folks can raise $100 million dollars through grassroot efforts and 2) can't trust any steward of the $100 million dollars collected.

 

But, you'll suggest folks like Oprah Winfrey and others put up $100 million dollars of their money.

 

My point is that Black folks can do both. 

 

  19 hours ago, richardmurray said:

This goes back to our million man march dialog. Assuming someone had the trust or could gain the trust, trust must be earned, of five hundred thousand black men  who attended the march , with your $25 dollar assumption, that twelve million and five hundred dollars? but who canthose 5000,00 trust? you? me ?  iargue none class.

It starts with having a solid plan/agenda, goals and milestones.

 

That requires a herculean effort of oorganization among Black folks especially in a climate of individualism and tribalism.

 

MY CONTINUATION 

 @ProfD

13 hours ago, ProfD said:

You're missing the point but it's OK. 

 

I was just in NYC last year. Saw Black folks spending money too.

I comprehend your point, it is that the financial poor in a populace can lead a populace, in fiscal capitalism, always. 

 

13 hours ago, ProfD said:

NYC is the same place spending millions of dollars housing illegal immigrants. They could easily feed the children if ut was a priority.

well I don't know about ease, I never say anything is easy. Nothing is easy. 

Technically, NYC is spending federal money on housing illegal immigrants, thus appropriated money, thus money that must be used for specific reasons. I doubt the representatives of many states in the union will desire federal money for immigrants into nyc 

 

13 hours ago, ProfD said:

Right. Therein lies the biggest obstacle.

 

On one hand, you don't 1) believe Black folks can raise $100 million dollars through grassroot efforts and 2) can't trust any steward of the $100 million dollars collected.

 

But, you'll suggest folks like Oprah Winfrey and others put up $100 million dollars of their money.

 

My point is that Black folks can do both. 

Well, I must first say, I call any populace in humanity foolish if they put up large funds without trust. You first have to have the trust before the money. It is rare but sometimes the number 2 comes before number 1 this is one of those times. You have 1 but 2 is a key element to why 1 exist with me. 

Yes, Profd, here is a simple example. If I am a billionaire, no a multibillionaire, lets say I have ten billion. so ten percent is one billion. one percent is one hundred million. 

So, now someone, like myself says, why don't Rich spend one hundred million, which is one percent of rich rich's wealth in this example right? 

Now, that 100 million is Rich Rich's money right?  Rich Rich can do what he want with his money right? So, if Rich Rich don't invest in the community  that is perfectly acceptable because Rich Rich is free to not invest or invest with Rich Rich's. While, if rich rich is honest, if he is me he is, Rich Rich will publicly say he isn't helping the black populace in the usa and is responsible for not helping as one of the wealthiest black people in the usa. Cause that is the truth. If someone like Profd says in some forum, you guys want Rich Rich to invest his money , but can't trust a steward . and someone will say, Rich Rich said, as a fiscally wealthy black person in fiscal capitalsim that I have to invest first, before any fiscally poor black person, and if I don't invest, I am free to but anyone can tell me to shut the fuck up if I chime in on the village. Yes, if I was a billionaire and freely chose to not invest in the community but like to chime in on this show or that, any black person has the right to tell me to shut the fuck up. 

To the obstacle of trust.... 

YEs in the past the black churches in the usa had the ability to garner grassroots, but the stewardship of the black populace in the usa by the black churches in the usa failed. From circa 1865 to 1990 the black churches in the usa had their time and it ended with the majority of the black populace in the usa correctly rejecting their stewardship from the black churches. 

The black churches in the usa had three tenets: nonviolence/grassroots activity/be of the church.

 

Be of the Church is very interesting historically. 

The black populace in the usa at one time was 99% christian. Comprehend the percentage of jews in the white european populace/buddhist in the white asian populace was larger than non christian blacks in the black populace. So, the entire advantage to black churches existed , in terms of maintaining a strong role in the black populace, and sequentially membership.  But I think the 1950s, was the beginning of the end for the black churches in that be of the church mantra. Atheism/Islam/Buddhism/Belief systems or faiths older than christianity or islam or judaism while indigenous to africa grew in influence. The Black churches in all earnest, were never flexible enough when it came to the potential internal variance of cultures in the black populace in the usa. And their relationship to: Historic black colleges or universities, the NAACP, the garveyites, the black soldiers from the first two phases of the white european imperial wars W.E.I.W., black newspapers, the panthers, the nation of islam and many others all should had been integrated with black churches more but none were. The colleges or universities were initially 99% financed by white churches , black people had no money when the 13th amendment was signed because our populace was mostly enslaved not to long before. So I comprehend that white churches wanted the colleges to get black members to their churches. But black churches needed to merge with those colleges, comprehending that at their core they are places of learning not religion. The garveyites, again, malcolm's father was a pastor. But, not all churches supported garveyism. and that was foolish to me. The NAACP financed by white jews and has a black 1% workforce  in it, but link to them. and they didn't. Black Soldiers, so many black soldiers in the first phase of the W.E.I.W. came back to the usa invigorated , but alot of times they organized away from the black churches, not through it. I comprehend that many soldiers don't share the position on violence many church folk will want but embrace these people. Newsppapers/Panthers/ Nation of Islam  the black churches simply didn't make an effort to bind with black organizations or groups over the years. It isn't about people coming to them but they needed to lead and go to others, and they didn't and the results are easy to see.  The modern internal multiracial reality in the black populace in the usa has left the black churches behind, but they never embraced it, even among themselves. What always knocks me out is how little black churches helped each other. Very individualistic black churches are.

 

Grassroots activity is huge, initially the most positive. Black churches were able to manage black money/time/muscle into building schools, being active in government affairs. Again the 1950s, was a time of change. Circa 1865 most black people in the usa were correctly, financially worthless, as they came out of enslavement. But by 1955, and moreso in 1965, you see the rise of what i call the black one percent. Nonviolently, evading or surviving or overcoming all sorts of white violence/attacks/bullying/terrorism some black people , with the help of the village cause no one does it alone no matter what they tell you, achieved financial wealth.  Not white wealth levels, again, white people killed first people to take their land and enslaved black folk to till that land, so having access to land + labor that you are not paying at market rate or in various tax system or rulesets helps catapult financial revenue streams, which black people wierdly seem to think can be better legally. But the black wealthy circa 1950s had developed a culture started from 1865 that influenced black churches badly. The black wealthy all went to black churches and started manipulating how they operated , whereas circa 1865 black churches sought to help the black populace, circa 1955 black churches are telling black people to help themselves. Black business owners flipped the bill for alot of activities in the 1960s but the black churches should had by that time been more involved. But the death of grassroots activities from black churches to the larger black populace in their regions started to change how black people related to the churches. Kwame Ture, some know as Stokely Carmicheal, said it best himself, about Martin Luther King jr, can you imagine a black baptist preacher doesn't accept a cadillac. The Black Preachers by the 1960s in majority were not about the flock but themselves, that is why they never voted for MLK jr to be head of the southern black christian leadership conference. And in parallel, the wealthy black churches have survived well to this day each in their individual glamour while the fiscally poor churches said rich churches didn't even think warranted a grassroots activity to save died and with them a huge disassociation from the larger black populace in the usa. 

 

Nonviolence:) I saved this last, cause i argue this was the biggest injury black churches had to their leadership position in the black populace in the usa. 

So many black people were beaten , the tragedy of the usa, is alot of times, black people ourselves, focus on the hangings, the burnings, the action from whites that lead to death, but i think the violent actions from whites that are not lethal are more interesting. 

How many black women were raped? I know in one town all the black women were raped by whites, a common knowledge around black people in that town. 

How many black men were beaten by whites, unsheeted circa 1865 to anytime now sheeted circa 1875 to circa 1965 uniformed circa 1865 to anytime now. 

The Black Churches circa 1865 had a vote where they decided a collective stance, an agreement between black churches on the stance towards violence [I am trying to find out all i can about this and add it to the DOS EARLY LITERATURE GROUP, it will be one of my best finds if I can] , to support nonviolence. 

And I don't mind that, but here is the problem, when you promote nonviolence aside a communalism circa 1865 black individuals don't feel alone, but from circa 1950s to modernity the nonviolence is aside individualism. In the 1970s white people still enslaved black people straightly, albeit illegally, while black churches in the same 1970s are talking about bootstraps. Said enslaved black people:  can't chew through metal,  block a bullet to their arm or deal with a ax hit across their foot, can't attack an armed person with the power of faith. Black people needed armed protection, they needed guidance away from white violence. But all the black churches ever provided from circa 1865 to modernity, 2025, going from undoubted leaders to castaway organizations, is no guidance away from violence or no protection and black people, like any people with some sense, saw the nonviolent plea ended up with the black churches leaving each of its members alone, as black individuals against white communal violence and why go to church for that. I will never forget Sean Bell's father, he said he wanted the men who killed his son dead. Al sharpton, the pastor, and others made sure he wasn't heard much after in the media sphere, and that encapsulates the problem with non violence from the black church. It is a spit in the eye. The same Black Churches that shut up Sean Bell's father who said nothing wrong in my mind, will then turn to people with similar feeling to sean bell's father, all earned by white violence, and tell them about investing in some business, voting for some official, all of things that will not satisfy their warranted anger. Cause the black churches don't care. it is a philosophical desire that leaves black people alone in the affairs that matter most while demanding some unwarranted communal action by the same individuals.  

 

And this goes to my point about Black leadership concerning the Black 1% in the usa, said 1% was brewed in Black Churches in the usa. The Black Churches developed an individualist culture that didn't even allow them to help fellow black churches, and made them private clubs whose members ingratiate themselves and have a heirarchy of wealth, dismissive of anybody outside. So when I suggest the black 1% put up their money, I don't do that hopefully. It is merely strategic assessment within a fiscal capitalistic environment where all major actions come through the fiscal aristocracy , no matter how they got their wealth, and uplifting the black populace in the usa is a major action. 

 

PRofd you suggest in a climate of individualism that garnering the trust needed is a continent bridging act of organization. I concur. Possibility is not probability. Possibility ask can a thing happen or not. Probability ask what is the gamble, as a numerical value, a thing can happen. 

It is possible, all things are possible actually. But the probability is very low in this case. 

 

 

https://aalbc.com/tc/topic/11462-is-black-twitter-still-a-thing/#findComment-71630  (FROM TROY  IN AMENDMENT- this came in after I had set up this post so I just placed it in )

  21 hours ago, richardmurray said:

I will love to know who has bought two packs of cigarettes in a month in nyc ?

There are plenty of people. I was asked to buy a carton of cigarettes here in Florida for someone up in New York City who smokes two packs a day. My mother easily smokes a pack a day and has been doing that for the better part of 3/4 of a century.

 

certainly, we as a people can do a much better job and investing in our own businesses.
 

We do have experience with this already. There are mega churches all over the country that are supported by relatively small contributions by large numbers of people. Some of those churches have schools and provide a wide variety of services for the community in addition to ensuring contributors get into heaven. But churches have all types of tax advantages that regular businesses don’t.

The real issue, I think, is creating wealth for the investors rather than lighting the pockets of some charismatic preacher. It is not just a matter of organizing the investors it’s coming up with the viable business.
 

Alternatively, people can be content in simply contributing to a business without expecting to be rewarded financially. People contribute to my business simply because they want to support what I’m doing, which is beautiful because it actually does help. 

 

MY REPLY 

 

 @Troy 

1 hour ago, Troy said:

There are plenty of people. I was asked to buy a carton of cigarettes here in Florida for someone up in New York City who smokes two packs a day. My mother easily smokes a pack a day and has been doing that for the better part of 3/4 of a century.

Buy a carton in florida, not in NYC and Profd's point was about NYC, not buying in another state because of the cost in nyc... 

1 hour ago, Troy said:

certainly, we as a people can do a much better job and investing in our own businesses.

whose we? The black populace in the usa, not the world, not another country, the usa has no we. Yes, small tribes do this or that. But overall no we exist in the black populace of the usa. So I argue, the black populace in the usa is doing as it has been guided from internally as well as externally. And that is fine. Individualism has served black people in the usa well for those that want to integrate, to merge, to miscegenate, to become one with the non black in the usa.

1 hour ago, Troy said:

We do have experience with this already. There are mega churches all over the country that are supported by relatively small contributions by large numbers of people. Some of those churches have schools and provide a wide variety of services for the community in addition to ensuring contributors get into heaven. But churches have all types of tax advantages that regular businesses don’t.

yeah, I mentioned black churches in my reply to Profd, yeah ok. but black churches are about themselves, again, they don't help each other, so...

1 hour ago, Troy said:

The real issue, I think, is creating wealth for the investors rather than lighting the pockets of some charismatic preacher. It is not just a matter of organizing the investors it’s coming up with the viable business.

the time has passed on that. The culture of ingratiating the preacher is fully embedded, the time to unravel that was in the 1900s not 2025 and after

1 hour ago, Troy said:

Alternatively, people can be content in simply contributing to a business without expecting to be rewarded financially. People contribute to my business simply because they want to support what I’m doing, which is beautiful because it actually does help. 

your right. I never said there are not black people with money who give with no desire for financial returns.  But the black fiscal poor can't lead a website to the kind of growth to become a "electronic freedom's journal".. not in my opinion. Can they be part of the journey yes, but not lead. That is asking the most from the poorest.

 

https://aalbc.com/tc/topic/11462-is-black-twitter-still-a-thing/#findComment-71635

 

Prior Economic Corner

https://aalbc.com/tc/topic/11447-economiccorner011/

 

[ProfD]

39 minutes ago, richardmurray said:

If you are black in the usa, embrace your small tribe, or embrace individualism but stop all the unwarranted talk about the larger populace doing communal action. 

Understood.  We should embrace our own tribes and do whatever it takes to encourage and uplift them.   Got it.

 

At the same time, 1) 1st amendment and 2) technology, gives us the freedom of speech and a platform to express our ideas, thoughts, views, opinions, etc.

 

Like writing a piece of music or a book or an article, with freedom of speech, we can release it out into the world.  The person hearing or reading may very well enjoy it.

 

A little over a week ago, we lost a master teacher in the honorable Neely Fuller Jr.  His teachings did not appeal to a huge segment of Black folks.  That didn't stop him.

 

Even when a Black person calls out to the *community-at-large*, only those who share the vision need to heed it. 

 

Other tribes can ignore it and roll their own program.  No problem.

[richardmurray]

@ProfD

55 minutes ago, ProfD said:

Neely Fuller Jr.  His teachings did not appeal to a huge segment of Black folks. 

Well, appealing with humans is best nonverbal. A white german man admitted as a kid he loved the nazi's. Not because of hitler's speeches but because of the non verbal improvements by the nazi party in germany. The lesson which Fuller jr should had known as an academic, a student of human collective action, is that non verbal action always warrants being heeded while verbal action is at best an optional to humans, through out all human history, including the future  on mars when humans will say similar about being abused by the terrans. It wasn't calling black people nigger or calling first peoples of the americas savage that appealed to whites, it was the free land most were able to get without getting their hands dirty, it was the access to large quantities of labor extrmest under market value to make the revenue to give to make the lives of their loving ones happy. This is why Garveyism to this day is the most potent movement in the black populace in the usa. Garvey spoke or wrote but at his core he was a non verbal doer. He emphasized non verbal action to black betterment , not words not gambles not lies, unlike many others in Black Leadership positions in the usa especially, including Fuller jr. Any human's speeches, whether condemning or calling out or praising or inspiring is impotent or negligent or dysfunctional in comparison to non verbal action; and that is why any human at any time who uses speeches is unheeded. They aren't delivering the best thing to heed, and that isn't visions but solid things, things you can grab, hold, treasure 

[ProfD]

8 hours ago, richardmurray said:

   This is why Garveyism to this day is the most potent movement in the black populace in the usa.

I'll have to take your word on it because Pan-Africanism hasn't really popped off in my sphere.

 

8 hours ago, richardmurray said:

Garvey spoke or wrote but at his core he was a non verbal doer. He emphasized non verbal action to black betterment , not words not gambles not lies, unlike many others in Black Leadership positions in the usa especially, including Fuller jr.

If you're familiar with his work and what he was about, Neely Fuller Jr. in his modesty, always reminded listeners that he was not a leader by any stretch of the imagination. He was a teacher. There's a difference.

[richardmurray]

@ProfD

30 minutes ago, ProfD said:

I'll have to take your word on it because Pan-Africanism hasn't really popped off in my sphere.

I apologize... I didn't say Garveyism is the most today but to this day, meaning in history. Garveyism which is more than pan africanism, is not popular in the black populace today but no movement in the history of black people in the usa is more popular than garveyism at its height. 

2 hours ago, ProfD said:

If you're familiar with his work and what he was about, Neely Fuller Jr. in his modesty, always reminded listeners that he was not a leader by any stretch of the imagination. He was a teacher. There's a difference.

Well... a leader can be a teacher, can teach, a teacher can be a leader, can lead. 

So a leader is someone who is in a position to influence a larger group. Leading or caring or nonverbal acting is not a prerequisite for being a leader. 

A teacher is someone who is looking to teach another. 

So, if a teacher is not a leader then what that means is said teacher is not in a position to influence. But is that true of Fuller or Charles barkley or Obama, all of whom have publicly claimed they are not leaders in the black populace in the usa. I argue Fuller is... was a leader, like Barkley or Obama. And like his contemperaries he decided not to lead/nonverbal act communally. And that is fine. Again, if a leader is unwilling to lead that doesn't mean they are not a leader, it just means they don't want to lead. If you know your Zen from China that is actually very acceptable. But I don't want to go away from the topic. 

The Great Shirley Chisholm, one of my personal favorite black elected officials,  never said she wasn't a leader, she admitted she wasn't leading. That is true wisdom, rest her soul. And Before her spirit flew she said black people in the usa need to focus on finance. She didn't say black people in the usa should be uncaring to government, that will lead to a return to most of white violence or terrorism to blacks circa 1865 to circa 1990. 

Looking forward in the usa, not the black populace outside the usa which i see disconnected to the black populace in the usa while also significantly much larger even in parts, the black populace in its individualism needs a culture of "financial titanhood" I will explain. Since most black people in the usa are about the individual or a small tribe and not the black populace, the best financial model is one where black individuals have a financial ambition as part of their culture. 

This is opposed to the careful financial culture that most black wealthy have. The Black financial poor can't afford to be ambitious as their financial level can't afford risk. In all financial activity risk exist but when one is financially poor, it is very dangerous to invest riskily. But without a heavy riskiness one can not be deemed financially ambitious, especially when one can not financially cheat. Again, many whites in the usa have cheats in their financial history that blacks will not be allowed or afforded as the usa is a white country so, risk is mandatory for ambition when one has to be within the rules. 

And this connects to a black owned website becoming the most followed in the world or at least in the black global online populace.

Myspace/Yahoo/Google/Youtube/Facebook/Twitter all at one time or another were the most popular website in humanity or at least the usa by some measure. 

But all of them started the same way, investment banks after the fall of the soviet union's global ambitions and before the rise of china financially, an environment that doesn't exist today. Said banks allowed all of said firms who were financial losers , some for many years, to hold on till they found a financial balance. 

The problem with that model is , said banks would not do that for a black owned website. 

Tiktok is the biggest now but its model is even more impossible for blacks of the usa. China through military power has an insulated environment, so they make their own websites in china and give them preference. Douyin was doing great and then they made the mirror of it and called it tiktok for outside china. it is the biggest website in the world today. 

But black people in the usa:) would need to go back circa 1865 and change the path black leaders put us on. Most Black Leaders in the usa back then went against all the ideas that could lead to the governmental abilities to have protectionism like china. If the exodusters had succeeded , maybe today, but black people themselves, like frederick douglass,  opposed the exodusters so...the way in which tiktok became what it is, isn't replicatable by blacks in the usa. Blacks in the usa, especially DOSers don't have a country of their own. The modern usa government can't even accept black happiness or positive history in media. 

So... absent a powerful banking network that can commit financial crimes or their own country to be an incubator, black people in the usa who want a stronger website can't do what white europeans or white asians did for the most popular websites in history.

Profd, you talk about Fuller's method so much, your plans, well let us see some prose,  adapt them to owning a website? 

[ProfD]

3 hours ago, richardmurray said:

I apologize... I didn't say Garveyism is the most today but to this day, meaning in history. Garveyism which is more than pan africanism, is not popular in the black populace today but no movement in the history of black people in the usa is more popular than garveyism at its height. 

Gotcha.

3 hours ago, richardmurray said:

So, if a teacher is not a leader then what that means is said teacher is not in a position to influence.

Of course, you're entitled to your opinion.  However, there are many successful people who were heavily influenced by teachers.

 

3 hours ago, richardmurray said:

Since most black people in the usa are about the individual or a small tribe and not the black populace, the best financial model is one where black individuals have a financial ambition as part of their culture. 

This is opposed to the careful financial culture that most black wealthy have.

How do most Black folks become wealthy?

 

 

3 hours ago, richardmurray said:

The problem with that model is , said banks would not do that for a black owned website. 

How do Black churches raise money?

 

 

3 hours ago, richardmurray said:

Blacks in the usa, especially DOSers don't have a country of their own.

I believe America is our country too. 

 

 

3 hours ago, richardmurray said:

The modern usa government can't even accept black happiness or positive history in media. 

We don't have to wait on their acceptance or approval.

 

3 hours ago, richardmurray said:

So... absent a powerful banking network that can commit financial crimes or their own country to be an incubator, black people in the usa who want a stronger website can't do what white europeans or white asians did for the most popular websites in history.

We can agree to disagree.

3 hours ago, richardmurray said:

Profd, you talk about Fuller's method so much, your plans, well let us see some prose,  adapt them to owning a website? 

I'm not sure of what makes you think I want to own a website.

 

The dialog morphed into a discussion about investing in our own Black platform.  I certainly would invest in it. 

[richardmurray]

@ProfD

1 hour ago, ProfD said:

How do most Black folks become wealthy?

 first I have to state the question I am answering. The question I am answering is 

how do most black folks in the usa become financially wealthy, wealthy defined as the highest financial brackets among the black populace in the usa only? 

I know it isn't your question but your question relates to the black populace in humanity, each country is its own field, you can't compare black people in brasil to black people in nigeria to black people in india to black people in phillipines to black people in spain to black people in the usa, each place has important variances. And I have to specify the financial field as well, black people in the usa for some reason like to compare our financial situation to whites which is unfounded. 

Billionaire oil barons in Nigeria or their forebears had /have/will have opportunities black folks in the usa never had/don't have/will never have, white people in the usa murdered and killed blacks in the usa to make they didn't/don't /will not.  

so...how do most black folks in the usa become financially wealthy, wealthy defined as the highest financial brackets among the black populace in the usa only? 

The entertainment industry, owned or controlled by whites from before the war between the states, is the main engine of the black wealthy. Black people do legal nonviolent work and over time gain enough wealth, not as much as the white owners of the entertainment industry that predate the 13th amendment but...

2 hours ago, ProfD said:

How do Black churches raise money?

Black Churches raise money through their members, but I don't know about where you live but I can tell you many black churches in harlem. harlem defined as all of northern manhattan, are dead/gone/empty... yes, some black churches are present or a little above water, but most or many are dead or dying. 

 

2 hours ago, ProfD said:

I believe America is our country too.

yes i know, that is one of the long standing points of contention in the black populace in the usa, older than the usa itself, started in the 1500s

 

2 hours ago, ProfD said:

We don't have to wait on their acceptance or approval.

well my point was about the environment black people live in the usa. It was never and isn't a positive environment for a majority of black people. Now maybe in the future it will be but I think the odds are low, very low, on that. 

 

2 hours ago, ProfD said:

We can agree to disagree.

This is the economic corner liking to dislike is fine but I rather be informed, especially among financial affairs. 

To the investment banking, please state the banks black people in the usa have access to that will invest in a losing financial venture owned by a black individual or group, which is how all websites in the usa started? Please name the banks. I am not ashamed to say I have no idea which banks will invest in a losing enterprise owned by blacks for years. I am glad you know, please inform in the economic corner. 

And please state how black people in the usa can make a website incubated from non blacks in the usa or others outside, like the chinese in china, a nuclear powered country that is actually majority chinese, can to all outsiders? I am all ears.

I do not know is the beginning of all wisdom, since you seem to know then please inform. 

2 hours ago, ProfD said:

I'm not sure of what makes you think I want to own a website.

I never said you did but the topic is about a black owned website so since you have a fine tuned financial strategy, you should be able to apply it to any circumstance theoretically, and in the financial corner that theoretical finance is part of the message.

[ProfD]

 

1 hour ago, richardmurray said:

 how do most black folks in the usa become financially wealthy, wealthy defined as the highest financial brackets among the black populace in the usa only? 

 

The entertainment industry, owned or controlled by whites...

Correct.

 

Entertainment industry...music and sports and ancillary businesses associated with it generates a huge portion of Black wealth in the US. 

 

1 hour ago, richardmurray said:

Black Churches raise money through their members...

 Correct.

 

As I mentioned in another thread, Black churches raise billions of dollars annually.

 

Churches have tax-free status. It would be interesting to know how that money is being invested.

 

 

1 hour ago, richardmurray said:

yes i know, that is one of the long standing points of contention in the black populace in the usa, older than the usa itself, started in the 1500s

FBA/ADOS do not have another country they can claim.

1 hour ago, richardmurray said:

It was never and isn't a positive environment for a majority of black people.

Of course, it depends on which tribe of Black folks is offering its perspective on their environment. 

 

1 hour ago, richardmurray said:

This is the economic corner liking to dislike is fine but I rather be informed, especially among financial affairs. 

There's information and ideas being presented in the economic corners.

 

1 hour ago, richardmurray said:

To the investment banking, please state the banks black people in the usa have access to that will invest in a losing financial venture owned by a black individual or group, which is how all websites in the usa started?

Banks are not the only investors in a start-up business venture. 

 

1 hour ago, richardmurray said:

Please name the banks. I am not ashamed to say I have no idea which banks will invest in a losing enterprise owned by blacks for years. I am glad you know, please inform in the economic corner. 

Investors come in different forms i.e. angel, grassroots, fund-raising, crowd-sourcing, etc.

 

1 hour ago, richardmurray said:

And please state how black people in the usa can make a website incubated from non blacks in the usa or others outside, like the chinese in china, a nuclear powered country that is actually majority chinese, can to all outsiders? I am all ears.

Maybe you're all ears because your eyes refuse to accept your reading of answers in the economic corners.

 

1 hour ago, richardmurray said:

I do not know is the beginning of all wisdom, since you seem to know then please inform. 

Seek knowledge to supplement wisdom with open ears and eyes. 

 

1 hour ago, richardmurray said:

I never said you did but the topic is about a black owned website so since you have a fine tuned financial strategy, you should be able to apply it to any circumstance theoretically, and in the financial corner that theoretical finance is part of the message.

I haven't provided a fine tuned financial strategy.  Just ideas for where money can be found to invest in such endeavors.

[richardmurray]

@ProfD

10 hours ago, ProfD said:

It would be interesting to know how that money is being invested.

It would be revealing, I gamble  most  black churches in the usa are financially private clubs in 2025 

10 hours ago, ProfD said:

FBA/ADOS do not have another country they can claim.

I must say I don't claim liberia but i think an argument for liberia is valid. But since we both accept DOSers in the usa have no external land then the tiktok method is impossible cause the chinese were able to use government powers that DOS don't have in the usa and never will have, unless the black population in the usa becomes majority and that is never going to happen with the white europeans/white asians/white muslims/white arabs/white latinos 

 

10 hours ago, ProfD said:

it depends on which tribe of Black folks is offering its perspective on their environment. 

 well yeah, that has always been the unique problem with the DOSers in the black populace in the usa or the european colonies preceding it. Those perspectives range to wide to build a bridge. I argue that no group in the usa has such a variance, but that isn't a fault on DOSers, that makes since cause DOSers shouldn't be in the usa based on their own forebears desires. But I wonder how anyone Black can think the usa is a positive place for a majority of blacks at any time in its history.

In 2025, the black towns that are throughout the south, don't tell me black people think those towns are in a positive environment with the states governments of texas/missisippi/ or similar. I have to say Profd, can you provide links to a black person, any black person in the usa,  saying a majority of black people live in a positive environment in the usa? I have never heard a black person say that offline but maybe online it happened. Please share, it seems you know someone or maybe you see it this way yourself.

10 hours ago, ProfD said:

Banks are not the only investors in a start-up business venture. 

No it is also venture capitalist firms, private investment and many others, but my point was none of these ventures will invest in a black owned losing business for years which is a reality of all popular websites, they are all losers financially, money pits really, until they are not or they are closed cause the money line has dried up.

11 hours ago, ProfD said:

Investors come in different forms i.e. angel, grassroots, fund-raising, crowd-sourcing, etc.

I comprehend that, the problem with crowd funding or grassroots, is you need to come through and can that be guaranteed. I know of failed grassroots or crowd sourcing attempts by black artist that angered black people who invested. I admittedly, accepted the money can be lost but most will not . So the trust issue comes up, and websites are fickle historically, many love the good stories and forget, most websites fail. If the website fails black people will correctly never trust the designers of the project again and the black populace in the usa, correctly, has a short leash of trust. 

11 hours ago, ProfD said:

Maybe you're all ears because your eyes refuse to accept your reading of answers in the economic corners.

ok well:)  

From what you have wrote,....why don't you start a crowd fund for aalbc then? 

 

[ProfD]

3 hours ago, richardmurray said:

I must say I don't claim liberia but i think an argument for liberia is valid.

Knowing the history of Liberia, there is a *trust* factor that would have to be fostered in order for them to accept FBA/ADOS coming there.

 

Same goes for all African countries really.  They will accept FBA/ADOS as long as they're bringing a huge bag of money. 

 

If such is the case, FBA/ADOS might as well stay in America where we can make money and build in our homeland.

 

3 hours ago, richardmurray said:

But since we both accept DOSers in the usa have no external land then the tiktok method is impossible cause the chinese were able to use government powers that DOS don't have in the usa and never will have, unless the black population in the usa becomes majority and that is never going to happen with the white europeans/white asians/white muslims/white arabs/white latinos 

Here is where we fundamentally disagree.  I believe FBA/ADOS could pool money here and build anything we truly desire. 

 

Therein lies the rub.  FBA/ADOS don't *want* anything of our own badly enough to sacrifice for it.

 

 

3 hours ago, richardmurray said:

In 2025, the black towns that are throughout the south, don't tell me black people think those towns are in a positive environment with the states governments of texas/missisippi/ or similar. I have to say Profd, can you provide links to a black person, any black person in the usa,  saying a majority of black people live in a positive environment in the usa?

Duly noted.  I'm not going tell you *again* where Black folks are thriving.  I've accepted that you're laser focused on your bubble that is NYC.

 

 

3 hours ago, richardmurray said:

No it is also venture capitalist firms, private investment and many others, but my point was none of these ventures will invest in a black owned losing business for years which is a reality of all popular websites, they are all losers financially, money pits really, until they are not or they are closed cause the money line has dried up.

I'm not sure of how the dialog became centered around websites.  I merely used a Black-owned platform as one investment to rival white-owned.  Especially since Black folks spend a ton of time using social media.  

 

Example...when POTUS OJ got banned from Twitter(X), he immediately set up Truth Social.  It has millions of followers. 

 

Of course, now POTUS OJ is bosom buddies with the owner of Twitter (X) and some would argue that he's elevated him to co-POTUS.

 

The point is POTUS OJ didn't reach into his own pocket to put up the monies for his social media site.  He did it through fundraising from millions of donors from poor to wealthy.

 

3 hours ago, richardmurray said:

From what you have wrote,....why don't you start a crowd fund for aalbc then? 

When the owner of AALBC needs money, he already knows what to do.

[Troy]

10 hours ago, ProfD said:

When the owner of AALBC needs money, he already knows what to do.

 Tell me what to do please.

[richardmurray]

@ProfD

9 hours ago, ProfD said:

Knowing the history of Liberia, there is a *trust* factor that would have to be fostered in order for them to accept FBA/ADOS coming there.

well... I am not going to go into the history of liberia cause it is complicated and is done a disservice with simplicity, but I will say that the DOS original immigrants brought by whites and other Black immigrants afterward brought by whites came to liberia with a unity in individual purpose, that being a free happy home for themselves away from whites while surrounded by blacks. But, they came with a high variance in communal purpose. That is where the chaos ensued. The indigenous inhabitants did actually make a legal agreement with DOSers alongside the whites who brought them but the DOSers lack , absence, of a common communal purpose is the source. While in the usa, the country of individualism, individualism is purposeful, vital, important, needed , warranted over communalism. But when a group leaves the usa, especially one that wasn't ever allowed to be a group in the usa, to a new place the absence of a common communal purpose will lead to pain, catastrophe. Liberia at the end of the day, has a minority made of the DOSers who are financial aristocrats. 

9 hours ago, ProfD said:

Same goes for all African countries really.  They will accept FBA/ADOS as long as they're bringing a huge bag of money. 

Historically that isn't true. 

 

10 hours ago, ProfD said:

If such is the case, FBA/ADOS might as well stay in America where we can make money and build in our homeland.

We who is we, I repeat, you are not speaking about me or DOSers like myself. Now I will speak a bridge which I have said before in this forum. DOSers unlike any other peoples in the usa based on our history have the freedom to say the usa isn't our homeland as well as is our homeland. The First People's must cause they were the first humans to these lands, they also have the right to say they have the first rights unlike any other. Non DOSers, including other black people can only say the usa is their homeland because they or their forebears in totality freely embraced this land. But, the DOSers is free to be attached to the USA or not. 

That is a truth unique to DOSers, I think it unsettles many DOSers , especially those who embrace the usa and want DOSers to be like all others so to speak. But, I hope one day, all dosers realize all   a unique freedom.

12 hours ago, ProfD said:

Here is where we fundamentally disagree.  I believe FBA/ADOS could pool money here and build anything we truly desire. 

 

Therein lies the rub.  FBA/ADOS don't *want* anything of our own badly enough to sacrifice for it.

We do oppose in this case. I must say DOSers in the usa have built towns/churches/communal places like the renaissance ballroom in harlem. I was speaking specifically about a website like tiktok. But I have accepted something that I think you either don't accept or don't want to accept. The communal nature of the black populace in the usa in the past is no longer a majority culture in the black populace of the usa today. And I don't think it is a negative. You say black people in the usa dont want anything of our own , but I don't think most black people in the usa are thinking of an our own in the first place. You are not accepting that white violence in the usa has broken the black communal desire in the usa  most black people in the usa had in the past and that communal desire has been replaced with an individualism. Black individuals in the usa are sacrificing on their own for their own things, they are not trying to collaborate much. In small tribes yes, but nothing grand as in the past. And I think you see that as a problem. 

 

13 hours ago, ProfD said:

I'm not going tell you *again* where Black folks are thriving.  I've accepted that you're laser focused on your bubble that is NYC

So in your opinion, most black people in the usa live in a positive environment. I am fortunate enough to communicate to various black people who live in various places in the usa. I don't think any of the fifty states in the usa are a positive environment for black people. Now if you are saying based on black people doing financially well that the negative environments don't matter, well ok. You are not the first black person I have spoken to who disregards the environment in the usa because of the existence of black people who are financially doing very well. 

 

13 hours ago, ProfD said:

I'm not sure of how the dialog became centered around websites.  I merely used a Black-owned platform as one investment to rival white-owned.  Especially since Black folks spend a ton of time using social media.  

 

Example...when POTUS OJ got banned from Twitter(X), he immediately set up Truth Social.  It has millions of followers. 

 

Of course, now POTUS OJ is bosom buddies with the owner of Twitter (X) and some would argue that he's elevated him to co-POTUS.

 

The point is POTUS OJ didn't reach into his own pocket to put up the monies for his social media site.  He did it through fundraising from millions of donors from poor to wealthy.

This whole thing started about black twitter remember. on Troy's post. and it went into a discussion on black owned websites, and you keep pushing it into the general field. And in honesty I comprehend why Profd. I get it. You are a black person, a DOSer who is an American, I don't know if you are proud, but you are American. And like the free black people who fought for the creation of the usa, even as most black people in the european colonies were enslaved and stayed enslaved on the usa's creation, you see in the usa a beautiful thing, a thing that you want to be a part of and you are willing, like those blacks who fought alongside the founding fathers of the usa, to fight blacks/non blacks or anyone else to strengthen the usa. But it will be nice if black people like you in the light of the free blacks who fought to create the usa, realized the two other groups: free blacks fighting against the creation of the usa + enslaved blacks who want nothing to do with whites or the usa survive in the DOS community today as well , regardless of the articulateness of DOSers.

[ProfD]

5 hours ago, richardmurray said:

 

well... I am not going to go into the history of liberia cause it is complicated and is done a disservice with simplicity...

Not my intention to dig up Liberian history. 

5 hours ago, richardmurray said:

We who is we, I repeat, you are not speaking about me or DOSers like myself.

Right. We agree there are different tribes.

5 hours ago, richardmurray said:

But, the DOSers is free to be attached to the USA or not. 

Absolutely.

 

Do the DOsers who choose to be unattached to the USA have another homeland to which they can return and thrive?

 

5 hours ago, richardmurray said:

That is a truth unique to DOSers, I think it unsettles many DOSers , especially those who embrace the usa and want DOSers to be like all others so to speak

Not unsettling at all. We have freedom of choice. 

5 hours ago, richardmurray said:

But I have accepted something that I think you either don't accept or don't want to accept. The communal nature of the black populace in the usa in the past is no longer a majority culture in the black populace of the usa today.

I have agreed there are Black tribes here.

5 hours ago, richardmurray said:

You are not accepting that white violence in the usa has broken the black communal desire in the usa  most black people in the usa had in the past and that communal desire has been replaced with an individualism.

Several of my posts mention the fear Black folks have of whites which I believe contributes to an impediment in self-sufficiency.

 

5 hours ago, richardmurray said:

Black individuals in the usa are sacrificing on their own for their own things, they are not trying to collaborate much. In small tribes yes, but nothing grand as in the past. And I think you see that as a problem. 

I do not see a problem there. I believe those individuals can become a collective if there's a commom goal.

 

5 hours ago, richardmurray said:

So in your opinion, most black people in the usa live in a positive environment.

Here we go again. I didn't write that most Black people live in a positive environment. Many of them do.

 

Black peope do live in 

 

5 hours ago, richardmurray said:

I don't think any of the fifty states in the usa are a positive environment for black people.

Where should Black people go in order to find the most positive environment?

 

5 hours ago, richardmurray said:

This whole thing started about black twitter remember. on Troy's post. and it went into a discussion on black owned websites, and you keep pushing it into the general field.

The only thing I'm *pushing* is that Black folks have resources to invest as evidenced by their consumption. 

 

5 hours ago, richardmurray said:

And in honesty I comprehend why Profd. I get it. You are a black person, a DOSer who is an American, I don't know if you are proud, but you are American....you see in the usa a beautiful thing, a thing that you want to be a part of and you are willing, like those blacks who fought alongside the founding fathers of the usa, to fight blacks/non blacks or anyone else to strengthen the usa.

I am a proud Black man aka FBA (Foundational Black American) aka AfroAmerican. 

 

Despite its awful history, the United States of America (USA) is where I was born and raised. The USA is the only homeland I know. 

 

As the most powerful country on the planet, the USA doesn't need my help to strengthen it. 

 

The fight I'm willing to engage in is destroying the system of racism white supremacy.

 

 

5 hours ago, richardmurray said:

But it will be nice if black people like you in the light of the free blacks who fought to create the usa, realized the two other groups: free blacks fighting against the creation of the usa + enslaved blacks who want nothing to do with whites or the usa survive in the DOS community today as well , regardless of the articulateness of DOSers.

No problem.

 

Again, I acknowledge there are different Black tribes.

 

I'd like to know your thoughts on why the two other groups choose to stay in the USA.

[richardmurray]

@ProfD

52 minutes ago, ProfD said:

Do the DOsers who choose to be unattached to the USA have another homeland to which they can return and thrive?

Well I can give two answers to your question. 

1)The simple but not complete answer is no

2) The complete but complex answer is, DOSers in the american continent , with forebears enslaved in majority non black countries have two aspects, one that is common to many peoples in humanity. and one that is a particular. 

 

The one that is common is statelessness. The Romani in Europe are a stateless people. The HAbshi of India, fellow Black DOSers ,are stateless. Being Stateless is a condition . All human peoples have a heritage or culture, ways they carry from the past or grow to the future. But, not all human peoples have a state/ a government/ a land they control. This is why white european jews wanted israel. It wasn't for money. The white european jewish community didn't need israel for financial wealth, doesn't get most of their wealth from israel[that still comes from being allowed to do business as a tiny minority in other peoples countries]and most white european jews don't live in israel, but israel serves a function that white european jews can't get in any other country in the world, including the usa. It is the gap between influence and freedom.  And to that end Black DOSers whose forebears were enslaved in the USA/Brasil/Mexico/Venezuela/or similar [not haiti or jamaica which are black DOS countries, Black Haitians or Black Jamaicans are Black DOSers but Black DOSers with enslaved forebears in the usa have no state to claim on birth ] are stateless. 

 

The one that is unique is the homeland identity. The homeland of Black DOSers of the American Continent [Canada to Argentina] is actually Africa itself. This is why I have always been against Gates jr. genetic based genealogy. What his line of thinking tries to do is match Black DOSers to whites but that isn't the truth of Black DOS situation.  For example, when someone immigrates to the usa from a state in africa today, what do they say? they are south african or nigerian or ethiopian but then they will say, I speak the language of X. Meaning a majority of people in Africa today see themselves as being of a specific people in a state. this is derived from recent african history, as the states were designed by white europeans while the peoples in africa have their own map, so you get this dual factor. But Black DOSers forebears didn't come from any of these modern states made by white europeans. If you I or any Black DOSer in the American Continent spoke to our forebears and asked them , how was senegal or ghana or nigeria or cameroon or dr congo, south africa, namibia, ethiopia, madagascar,algeria, morocco, oman, egypt,  or another country in africa, most would have no idea what we are talking about because those countries didn't exist. The only four that they will recognize by name is egypt/madagascar/ethiopia/congo. And they wouldn't comprehend two congos, abyssinians would comprehend the greek name for their country, the various people of madagascar would comprehend the european name of their island ,  kemet was called commonly egypt at the time our forebears were enslaved, only Ethiopia then Abyssinia actually existed as a government. And Black DOSers tribal heritage is simply mixed African. When I went to various countries in Africa one thing I noticed is that DOSers tend to have a huge variance in our appearance locally unlike folks in Africa who tend to be similar in appearance in regions in a country. And that makes sense cause our forebears were mated to each other absent any demographic concern outside skin tone labeled Black. So, Black DOSers whose forebears were enslaved in the usa have only one possible homeland, which is the continent of Africa itself. I am 100% certain my forebears came from all over the continent, and not from any of these post european colonial governments. 

 

Now looking forward, two questions.

 

1)can a stateless person join a state? yes. Which is why I said DOSers can or can not attach themselves to the USA. The key is the freedom DOSers have because of our unique heritage. IT is that simple. All others in the usa don't share our heritage with the usa and sequentially they are attached by their own heritage to the usa, while Black DOSers are free to choose. But Black DOSers have to choose. And if one doesn't, like myself, you are stateless and that isn't a bad thing. I can't see the future, maybe I will never have a homeland, a place I choose to call a home, that isn't uncommon in human history. But it is a choice I like all Black DOSers whose forebears were enslaved in the usa have. 

2) Can continental Africa be a homeland? yes. The AFrican Union already exists, which is the government of the continent of africa. like the european union is the government for the continent of europe. Does the government of africa have a state for individuals? no. Does the ORganization for American States, the government of the american continent? no. so, it is not common for governments of continents to have the same citizenry functions as the countries that compose them, but in my own travels, I know many in Africa have considered this idea, for various financial or cultural reasons. And I admit , if the African Union had a citizenship path I would apply. South Africa or Nigeria or Tunisia I can't say is my home, but I knowing my forebears history, I can say Africa is my home. Now how does one be a citizen of Africa but not a citizen of a country in it is a question for another time:)

 

So, I have explained why the only land a Black DOSer whose forebears were enslaved in the USA  can return to is Africa itself. Is it currently available? no. Is it possible in the future ? yes.  Can an Individual Black DOSer whose forebears were enslaved in the USA thrive in Africa? Based on the definition of thrive yes, because I know Black DOSers from various places in the east coast  who left to various place in Africa as individuals, not as a group, and are doing well. Are they billionaires ? no. So depending on what you mean by thriving the answer is no based on examples. 

I know I can be verbose but all these words serve a function, to meet the particular realities of black dosers. Our forebears lost wars, that is why they were enslaved. Wars against fellow Black people+ Wars against Whites. Losing wars makes your history complicated. 

Germany + Japan lost in two phases of the Global White Imperial Wars, Germany has two halves of itself that don't fit and no standing army bordered by england and russia. Japan don't have an army legally allowed to start wars while bordering china. The Russians lose the third phase, they are still trying to figure themselves out. This is what losing wars does to any peoples. The people who won imposed on you things that you can't simply whipe away with a magic wand because you lost the war. Black DOSers forebears lost many wars so....

2 hours ago, ProfD said:

Several of my posts mention the fear Black folks have of whites which I believe contributes to an impediment in self-sufficiency.

Fear + Idolization.  and I argue while fear was the majority deterrent in the past it is idolization today. 

As eddie murphy talking to an audience, i paraphrase

"yeah I see you out there, nobody enslaving me, the first brother off the boat thought that, and then WHIP oh yes! MASSA! whatever you say! I'm TOBY! I'm TOBY!"

The fear blacks have to whites was and is well earned. But in modernity, it is idoltry to whites. and whites aren't the sole genesis to said idoltry. In the USA at least, I think the problem started once Black leadership made their choices in the war between the states. Once they decided to guide black people to integrate to whites in the usa they set the table for idoltry to set in the Black DOSer populace. 

all things have positives + negatives. 

The positives of integration is it allows an unarmed black people still being extremely terrorized by white people to have a nonviolent way to gain financial profit and with that a better quality of life, it also allows a black peoples who are constantly attacked the second they have any movement to arm themselves by whites to survive being protected by white presence while unarmed. I comprehend. 

The negatives though is it requires careful monitoring in how black people apply their identity or goals to integration, especially as a minority populace, more whites live in the usa than blacks. People forget slavery is a form of integration. Jim crow is a form of integration. A black person in missisippi has a governor and two senators in a position of representation to them who are all white. county sheriffs in a position to protect or serve them who are all white and KKK members. Your not segregated because whites don't let you use a fountain, white people still come to your home to collect rent. white people are simply dictating the integration. Integration became for many black people the goal, and if integration is the goal then you don't need a self sufficient black populace because your goal is to be part of the already self sufficient statian/american populace. And to individualism, many blacks see their goal as being an integrated individual in the usa over being part of a strong nonviolent integrated black community with the rest of the populace in the usa. 

Impediment to self sufficiency if the goal is communal, but not if the goal is individual. 

3 hours ago, ProfD said:

Here we go again. I didn't write that most Black people live in a positive environment. Many of them do.

 

Black peope do live in 

even enough I miscomprehended, I tend to focus on majority, and your language focuses on positivity, which correctly, focuses on those that are doing positive, regardless of else. 

3 hours ago, ProfD said:

Where should Black people go in order to find the most positive environment?

Well, I will not speak robustly for Black DOSers who are stateless, like myself. To said black DOSers they have to find that place, and they may not find it. that is the reality/challenge of being stateless. It is nothing to be ashamed of and doesn't mean you don't have a heritage or culture.

 

But I will say for Black DOSers who have chosen the USA as their homeland their majority has already decided how they want to relate to the usa so the answer is straight forward but has not been reached. 

The majority Black DOSers who have chosen the USA as their homeland, yes the whole thing like a tribe called quest, clearly want the ability to exist as individuals anywhere in the usa with full opportunity/freedom/protections from local/county/state governments anti black ways or the anti black ways of non blacks. 

That is the positive environment goal they want. I base this on black people i have communicated to who live in the deep south, the midwest. This is why as I said before in this forum, Federalism is so popular in the modern Black populace in the USA. Federalism is the only thing that has protected black people in the usa from the texas rangers, the missisippi sheriffs, the small white town mayors. I argue Black people never forgot as long as the union army was in the south white violence against them existed but had some stoppage, once the union army left... welcome to hell. 

So the most positive environment Black DOSers who have chosen the USA as their homeland can reach has to be made in the USA, not found outside the USA as with the stateless Black DOSers. 

The greatest deterrent is whites in the usa have a complete history of violence against blacks in the usa, it is a constant of usa life for whites, abusing blacks, so it is a heritage and a strong heritage that is older than the usa itself. White Violence against Blacks is the second oldest heritage whites in the usa have, the oldest is killing first peoples, both are far older than the constitutional equality. 

So, Black DOSers like yourself got one hell of a challenge that many other Black DOSers in the USA aren't apart of as stateless. let alone Black peoples who are not DOSers in the modern immigrant mode who have a duality with a country outside rare for a DOSer. 

3 hours ago, ProfD said:

I'd like to know your thoughts on why the two other groups choose to stay in the USA.

 

Well I will speak on those who fought against the USA first

In the war of secession from the english empire most free blacks , blacks who were not enslaved to whites, were taken to canada. 

But in the war of 1812 which proves my point about tribes, most free blacks fought against the usa again, said blacks were hanged/killed/enslaved/ a few left the usa. 

And the black populace has always had anti statians, if you will. 

Now why didn't said black folks leave. I will split into two groups. 

First, the originals at the secession from the english empire. If england would had won, no USA exist. and england based on their own actions in failure would had definitely demanded Black Citizenry, the english would not had ended slavery but they would had ended the block on black freedom, not for love to blacks but to empower a deterrent against the whites in the usa. 

I think many blacks viewed the usa with a vendetta and wanted to destroy it, blood feuds work that way. while whites enslaved blacks for money, blacks didn't view their enslavement as financial. This is a blood feud and as such , only the shedding of blood can sate. 

To why Black DOSers who are anti statian don't leave. Well... stateless people have the hardest time getting a homeland because a true homeland isn't about money or owning land, it is about an embrace to a place as tied to your soul, and well... that is one of the hardest places to find. 

 

 

Second, to the enslaved black people. Well they were enslaved to whites. Slavery is a physical thing, they were not free to leave the usa, they weren't free to move about in the usa.

Now I will speak a little on the underground railroad focused on Black people who escaped slavery before the war between the states... It is known HArriet Tubman wanted black people to leave the usa, go to canada. But Frederick Douglass/most Black advocates before him and Black churches and white churches wanted Black people escaped from enslavement to stay in the usa. They each had their own reasons. White churches wanted congregants. Black churches wanted congregants especially as they couldn't move their church to canada. Douglass + the others like him before chose the usa to be their home and simply wanted other black people to do the same,. The heritage of getting other blacks to do your way is still strong in the black populace in the usa today. They didn't convince all but they convinced most to stay in the usa. I know it is cheap in hindsight but it is clear Harriet Tubman and blacks like her were correct. If all free blacks go to canada, that changes human history. For better or worse overall I don't know but it changes abolition in the usa or the greater north america. The reason being it gives abolition a focus. As a white southerner once said, i apraphrase:"you northerners speak of living equal with the negro but i never see your daughters with them"

White abolitionist wanted to end black enslavement to harm the business model of the wealthy white south but wanted black people to stay in the usa as a cheap labor source. If free blacks moved out more it would change Canada. 

to Black people after the war between the states who became free without escaping, most of them, didn't have the courage to try to escape so they have a compiunded problem. They are anti white, very frightened of whites, have little to no history of communicating as an equal human to anyone so travel is dangerous, very frightened of leaving the slave grounds by white terror, need to find a place for their own comfort. 

Did they want to leave? Yes.  Did they have anywhere inviting them to come? no. Did they have anywhere to go regardless of invite where a penniless people could go? no. Did they like the USA or whites in the usa enough to embrace or choose the usa? no. 

What you get is a stuck people. But they tried to give Frederick Douglass a chance, the black church a chance. Maybe if white violence or the union army could had waited twenty years , that may have been enough and history is changed , but in three years after the war between the states, whites are terrorizing black people so much so most white historians argue the violence by whites to blacks after the war between the states is worse than before. And so absent any time to settle in and believe in the usa, most Blacks are in the Jim Crow, the second phase of slavery.with all the problems they had before plus more, and thus no movement, no anything all based on honest expeirences, which leads to Black Individuals being the sole examples of success and the strenghtening of individualism to be the majority way of life for those in the black populace in the usa. 

[ProfD]

4 hours ago, richardmurray said:

 

Well I can give two answers to your question. 

1)The simple but not complete answer is no

2) The complete but complex answer is...

 

The one that is common is statelessness.

Understood.

 

A decade ago, I knew a few Black folks who considered themselves aboriginal, non-citizens of the US.

 

4 hours ago, richardmurray said:

So, Black DOSers whose forebears were enslaved in the usa have only one possible homeland, which is the continent of Africa itself. 

We'll have to wait and see how long it takes for Africa to become united and capable of offering a blanket citizenship to the entire continent.

 

4 hours ago, richardmurray said:

I can say Africa is my home. Now how does one be a citizen of Africa but not a citizen of a country in it is a question for another time:)

I don't need a blanket  citizenship to Africa. If sh8t goes sideways here in the US, I'm relocating to Burkina Faso. I'd be perfectly fine with being stateless too.

[richardmurray]

@ProfD

5 minutes ago, ProfD said:

We'll have to wait and see how long it takes for Africa to become united and capable of offering a blanket citizenship to the entire continent.

yeah the sovereignty is the legal problem. Tiered sovereignty doesn't exist as it will need to for this.  the biggest hurdle is what law is applied when one commits a crime. If you are a citizen of the african union and you commit a crime in nigeria against a mozambiquan nigerian law applies but does your african union citizenship get revoked? If you commit a crime in china and you are a citizen of the african union and the chinese legal system penalizes you by not being allowed in the country where do you go? It is legally intriguing. From those I know of working on this, it will work by being on top of citizenry to a member of the african union. That solves many legal questions but for DOSers how will that work,especially if someone cancels their usa citizenship which recently happened increasingly year by year, I haven't checked the numbers in a while. 

 

6 minutes ago, ProfD said:

I don't need a blanket  citizenship to Africa. If sh8t goes sideways here in the US, I'm relocating to Burkina Faso. I'd be perfectly fine with being stateless too.

   

[ProfD]

 

2 hours ago, richardmurray said:

 the biggest hurdle is what law is applied when one commits a crime.

 

If you are a citizen of the african union and you commit a crime in nigeria against a mozambiquan nigerian law applies but does your african union citizenship get revoked? If you commit a crime in china and you are a citizen of the african union and the chinese legal system penalizes you by not being allowed in the country where do you go? It is legally intriguing. 

Hopefully, the place would be nice and peaceful enough that one wouldn't commit crimes.