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Troy

Black & Write - A documentary on black authors and the publishing business

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@ Troy and Writer Girl

Wait a minute

It’s funny that ya’ll giving Eminem a pass when he was accused of being homophobic and rapped about killing and burying his baby mother’s, popping pills, and other debauchery, but yet you shit on NWA???

How can you relate to that???

Hahahahahaha

Eminem hasn’t done anything different that rappers before AND after him had already done

If anything, DMX had made more of an impact in the last 15 years in the rap game besides 50 Cent

Eminem is a dope artist, but to say he’s the most intriguing artist in the last 15 years is laughable

I hope the “Elvis Presley syndrome” is not present in this thread

I’m just saying

@ Cynique

I own the Love Supreme album by John Coltrane (Thanks to Mo’ Better Blues)…Blue Train is one of my favorite albums

I even have a poster of the Blue Train album cover on my wall…LOL

Cab Calloway was probably the ORIGINAL RAPPER with his call and response technique that MCs used in the 80s

If it wasn’t for rap producers sampling their songs, I would find myself totally ignorant of jazz and blues and other forms of music

When I say the Golden Age of Black Music, that’s not to negate the contributions of brothers like Gillespie and Little Richard

That’s to say that modern Black music has reached its zenith when it came to world recognition and its height of creativity

Side B

How many rappers know that the frenetic be-bop music of genuises like Charlie Parker were in the vanguard of free style as an art form.

Be-Bop IS freestyle rap…Q-Tip from A Tribe Called Quest had acknowledged that in their Beats, Rhymes and Life documentary

A lot of the samples and influences in the late 80s and 90s rap CAME from artists like Charlie Parker, Miles Davis, Thelonious Monk, Billie Holliday and those of their ilk

Lupe Fiasco had recently recorded a controversial song about American politics called “Strange Fruition” that plays off the song “Strange Fruit”

Digable Planets, A Tribe Called Quest, Large Professor, Guru (RIP) from Gangstarr and countless others have acknowledged jazz and various elements of that genre as a major influence in their music

Seen a show with Marvin Gaye last night, it had me shook

Drippin peppermint Schnapps, with Jackie Wilson, and Sam Cooke

Then some lady named Billie Holiday

Sang sittin there kickin it with Malcolm, 'til the day came – Tupac “Thug Mansion”

Enuff said

Side C

The assumptions and presumptions in this thread is ridiculously funny…hahahahahaha

Miles Davis had worked with rap producer Easy Mo Bee and won a Grammy for the Doo Bop album!!!

Ya'll are making this too easy for me

To use age as a measure of wisdom is a dangerous belief considering that I, and others I know, are listeners of music that predates funk and disco dating back to high school

How the hell do you think teenage and mid-20 producers were able to dig deep and find songs to sample???

I’m convinced Cynique, Troy, and Writer Girl are causal rap music listeners (and that’s being generous) and have limited knowledge about Hip-Hop on the strength of their responses

If you gonna talk about rap, AT LEAST have a decent history about the genre before debating or presenting an argument…this thread is filled with stereotyping and assumptions

Rap music is pretty much the love child of EVERY genre of music…it’s a melting pot of those elements mixed with various rhyming styles

It’s the last American art form

I’ll ALWAYS call myself a Hip-Hopper til the day I return to the ancestors

Point blank

Hip-Hop as a whole is just getting to be 40 years old

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Your little smattering of tid bits about jazz and swing and 1950's love ballads can simliarly be classified as having "limited knowledge", Nah'sun. So you have a Coltrane album. Big deal. Do you even know the genre of MIles Davis' brand of jazz? "Little Richard" and {Dizzzy) Gillespie in the same sentence? Get outta here. "Strange Fruit" a love ballad? Puleeze. Cab Calloway a forerunner of rapping? No way. Have you ever heard of King Pleasure? I didn't think so. Samplings of a producer are not a reflection of the fans of Rap.And where is your input about the blues??

Not content to rhapsodize Rap, you want to elevate to the top position this bastardized music that consists of spitting out a bunch of repetitive, deliberately profane rhymes, the themes of which are undeniably trite, having long ago lost their shock value. Bitches, hos, guns, booze, killings, bling, cars. ZZZZZZZZ

In the folly of your youth, you really think the Rap genre is a matrix of black music, your criteria being that anything that meets with your approval is more profound than the rest. And to compound your misguided claims, you resort to discrediting others because they don't regard your opinions with awe. Nobody but a young self-absorbed played-out hip-hopper would espouse the idea that outgrowing Rap is anything other than mellowing with age. B)

For somebody so "perceptive" you seem to have an awful hard time recognizing a generation gap. :blink:

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@ Cynique

Not content to aggrandize rap, you want to elevate to the top position a type of music that consists of spitting out a bunch of repetitive, deliberately profane rhymes, the themes of which are unintentionally trite, having long ago lost their shock value.

That comment alone shows me you know nothing about rap music

I'm not discrediting others...I refuse to allow someone to give a half assed critique on Hip-Hop

The majority of my opinions are backed up with facts...the rest are subjective

I showed and proved all my arguements with examples, something that I hardly witnessed in this thread besides theories and assumptions

And yes, Cab Calloway, if was alive and kicking now, would be considered a hype man for his call and response style

The age issue is getting tired now...come up with a different arguement

Anything you say to me from now on is irrelevant

Carry on and sing the blues with your sweet sixteens

POW!

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Nah'Sun

This is what I wrote about EMINEM:

Troy mentioned EMINEM and I can relate to that because I am one of those people who can honestly say that the last rapper that made me stop and listen and say "Oh okay! That's the ish right there!" was EMINEM. And I know there are talented individuals since him, but I just don't pay much attention.

I did not "shit" on NWA. And I don't understand why you are addressing me when you state the following:

Eminem hasn’t done anything different that rappers before AND after him had already done

I never said he did.

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Morris Day would be considered more of a latter-day Cab Calloway attired in white tails, than a rapper strolling up and down the stage in a hoody and gym shoes, Nah'Sun. "Call and response" did not originate with Calloway and he only did it on one song.

How about an example of a Rap verse that is about something other than the subjects I mentioned since you're into proving your arguments. (you might want to re-read my post)

It's hard to get around the age issue when nobody but a young wanna-be would make the ridiculous statements you do. Attributing great impact to your declaration that what I say is irrelevant to you is the height of youthful delusion. Like I care. :lol:

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Nah'Sun

This is what I wrote about EMINEM:

Troy mentioned EMINEM and I can relate to that because I am one of those people who can honestly say that the last rapper that made me stop and listen and say "Oh okay! That's the ish right there!" was EMINEM. And I know there are talented individuals since him, but I just don't pay much attention.

I did not "shit" on NWA. And I don't understand why you are addressing me when you state the following:

I never said he did.

@ Writer Girl

The NWA thing was moreso toward Troy

I'm just saying that Eminem hasn't invented the wheel or has done anything different that was already done before and after him besides sell tons of records

I think people are moreso intrigued that a white dude can actually rhyme and keep up with the brothas than his actual content

You automatically put yourself in the crossfire when you agreed with Troy with the Eminem co-signment

I see you're forgetting about Lupe Fiasco and Kanye West in that 15 year span

I don't know any rapper who made a song about Jesus in "Jesus Walks" and made it hot as Kanye

Now that's interesting

Once again...to each their own

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Crossfire?

Oh, trust me...I wasn't concerned. I was just trying to figure out where you were getting half of this stuff. I do think you may be reading the posts too fast or something.

You said something about me not being well-versed in rap? Let me address that. I never said I was an expert. I have my experience with hip hop and you have yours.

You also said something about not bringing up rap if you don't know enough about it...I guess I'll address that since I believe it was one of my earlier comments about rap & street lit that sparked this conversation. I do not claim to be an expert on the history of rap. However, I have enough memory of certain reactions from the public when rap first started hitting the mainstream that I could make a connection between that and the reactions to street lit. As the conversation began to go more in the current direction, I threw my two cents in here and there, but not as an expert witness, rather as someone merely adding her opinion on the little bit she DOES know.

As a matter of fact, I don't think I read anywhere from anyone that they thought they were an expert on rap/hip hop...

oh...wait...I forgot about you. :D

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@ Writer Girl

I had agreed with you about the reactions between rap and street lit

I only differed when it came to quality

At least you admit you don't pay attention to Hip-Hop as much...kudos

And in all modesty...

I am an expert on Hip-Hop because I AM HIP-HOP

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Nah'Sun who have, what is becoming an annoying habit, of drawing unrelated and false conclusions from simple statements I made. I wrote, "...last new rapper I found interesting was EMINEM." I did not write or even imply that "most intriguing artist in the last 15 years" nor was I, "...giving Eminem a pass" relative to NWA. You are manufacturing things then basing your argument with me on them and it is exasperating.

As far as knowledge about hip-hop to say I have, "..limited knowledge about Hip-Hop" is simply ignorant. Son, I witnessed the birth of what you now call "hip-hop". All the stuff you read and heard about it -- probably from someone else who was not there either -- can not replace experience. Now I'm sure you know more about the current music than I, but so does my 19 year child.

Being there, at the beginning, as a first hand witness, here in Harlem, I'm sure I have a far greater understanding of the history of the genre than you can fathom. The music came out of us, we gave birth to it. While you listen to Flash's song The Message as a study in rap history, I actually lived the experience. The Furious Five was telling our story... In fact this is why I fight for Urban Fiction to be heard, because I also remember a world when there were no more than a handful of Black writers being published.

Instead of spending time telling others how much you think you know, and dismissing what everyone else is telling you. You really should be listen more, ask questions, assume you know less than you do, as that will always be true -- even for me.

Kayne West, Lupe Fiasco, and perhaps even you Nah'Sun, never knew a world without Rap music, as such your world view will be completely different than mine.

Nah'Sun, your statement that, "Cab Calloway was probably the ORIGINAL RAPPER with his call and response technique that MCs used in the 80s" signifies some knowledge albeit incomplete. Call and response was used in the Black church before Cab. Cab did not invent it, nor did the Black church. This oral tradition originated in Africa. There is nothing "new" under the sun, son.

"It’s the last American art form" - This statement is beyond arrogant. The rapid decline of our culture is the only thing that makes the statement even plausible.

"I’ll ALWAYS call myself a Hip-Hopper til the day I return to the ancestors" - I would love to read what you believe 25 years from now.

"Hip-Hop as a whole is just getting to be 40 years old" - Still, a relative flash in the pan -- despite the overwhelming commercial success.

Cynqiue - I'm glad you finally weighed in.

"In the folly of your youth, you really think the Rap genre is a matrix of black music, your criteria being that anything that meets with your approval is more profound than the rest. And to compound your misguided claims, you resort to discrediting others because they don't regard your opinions with awe. Nobody but a young self-absorbed played-out hip-hopper would espouse the idea that outgrowing Rap is anything other than mellowing with age."

You have a way with words.

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@ Troy

Side A

You're playing with semantics

Intrique and interest are the same thing by definition

Intrique - to arouse the curiosity or INTEREST of by unusual, new, or otherwise fascinating or compelling qualities; appeal strongly to;

I see I'm not the only one who has a way with words

Side B

I'm not your son

You're getting emotional now

You don't know how old I am...I was alive, well, and aware during the 80s

Once again, Hip-Hop is not even 40 years old

Just because you were alive during the inception of Hip-Hop doesn't mean you were active in the culture with an understanding of it

Just like living in the projects doesn't make someone tough with street smarts

Get off the age thing...the horse is dead

Side C

I'm basing my opinions of your thoughts on Hip-Hop on the strength your posts

You don't strike me as someone who has a vast knowledge of Hip-Hop regardless of living in Harlem during that time

There's people living in Harlem today who've never heard of the 5 Percent Nation of Gods and Earths when the Allah School is right there on 126th street and 7th Ave

C'mon now...LOL

I salute anybody who corrects me on any form of history

Side D

I NEVER said Cab Calloway originated the call and response style

I used his name to answer Cynique to show similiarites and a bridge between rappers and jazz musicians in modern times on a mainstream level

Hell, they showed the call and response style amongst slaves on the field in the movie Roots

You're preaching to the choir when you mention the griots of West Africa and Kemetic storytellers

Stop with the condescension by tossing in history lessons...LOL

Side E

Rap IS the last American art-form

What came after rap???

I thought so

It's unfair to put an age limit on rap and Hip-Hop...you can't put an age limit on timeless music

And yes, I don't know a world without rap

However, you don't know me on a personal level to make a statement about my worldly views...LOL

Side F

There are different forms of rap music

And THAT'S why I see myself as a Hip-Hopper until the lights go out in this small world

I'm sure Professor Griff is hitting 50...he's still reppin Hip-Hop

How is Hip-Hop a flash in the pan when it's WORLDWIDE, Troy?

We're not talking about the pet rock here

WIth all due respect, you're not making any sense with that last post

I seriously doubt something that lasted this long with the power of bringing nationalities and ethniticites together is a flash in the pan

That power is the reason why Hip-Hop was co-opted in the first place

I'm starting to believe you're arguing just for the sake of doing it

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OK. Now I understand how you draw false conclusions based upon what I wrote. There is a language challenge; interesting and intriguing are not synonymous -- in anyone's dictionary.

Emotional, as in angry, or something like that -- nah. I've been online debating and arguing with people for the better part of 20 years, Nah'SonSun ;)

Did you know "Son" was a term of endearment used between peers, sort of like Nigga or in other quarters "ace" as in ace boon coon.

At this point, I can see where you might say I'm arguing to be arguing, considering this conversation originally started on a "documentary on black authors and the publishing business", but it takes two to tangle, so we are both guilty.

I think this is our fundamental disagreement:

Rap music is part of my very upbringing and because of that reason I have a nostalgic affinity for it. There was a time I thought it was the best thing out there. At the time, I thought I would always feel that way. But I changed, took on adult responsibilities, raised a couple of kids, traveled, moved out of the ghetto -- my struggle changed. The music no longer speaks to me. I aged grew out of the genre.

On top of that commercial Rap (what most of world is exposed to) degraded -- even by your standards, Nah'Sun.

Again, I believe one eventually outgrows Rap music which is designed to appeal to teenagers or those whose maturity is stunted.

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@ Troy

Side A

Around my parts, we say SUN…not son

Whassup, sun?

That’s how we rock n roll

Not even boy or dog because we aren’t children or animals

Side B

I don’t have a problem with your stance or your views on rap and Hip-Hop per se

It just irks the hell outta me when my elders and those a few years older than me wanna use age as a measurement of knowing history

Your views on Hip-Hop as a whole isn’t complete in my opinion

Just like how mines aren’t complete on book publishing

Most likely I wouldn’t spar with you about book publishing because I don’t know too much about the game in its totality

I’m still learning

I know my lane

Side C

Of course commercialized rap music is trash

On the flip side, commercialized rap music never represented the genre as a whole

You always had to go to the streets to get that raw, uncut style of rap

The only time I listen to today’s rap is when I hit the clubs…mainly because I don’t have a choice

Like I told you before…I stick with the 80s and 90s style of rap

Side D

I beg to differ about outgrowing Hip-Hop because as rap gets older, the people along with it get older as well

You can’t deny the classics…no matter how old you get

Remember...I'm not a casual listener...I view Hip-Hop as a CULTURE

The young MCs are getting older…Jay, Nas, and Eminem are top selling rappers that are either in their 40s or teetering on that milestone

There are many ways to celebrate Hip-Hop besides the music

Michael Eric Dyson speaks on Hip-Hop…even Kevin Powell drops editorials on Hip-Hop…KRS One, Professor Griff, Chuck D, Black Dot and others speak at colleges and universities on the subject of rap and Hip-Hop

What about your man Anthony Whyte…he’s an older cat who claims I am Hip Hop Lit

Hip-Hop is not about the music all the time…it’s multi-faceted

As an MC and author, rap has played a major part in my style of writing when I pen novels...so Hip-Hop is with me til the Omega

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I'm sure you are collecting your thoughts to respond to Nah'sun's riffs, Troy, so I'll do my little rant and run. The most off-putting thing about Nah'Sun is how oblivious he seems to be when it comes to the status of Rap. He's deluded. The music scene, in general, is nonchalant about Rap and the world at large doesn't give a good shit about it. The most credible interest in Rap may, indeed, come from the academic community - the sociologist and anthropologists who study things like culture as it relates to the music of an ethnic group..

To millions and miillions of people, Rap is regarded as gibberish they wouldn't pay money to hear, preferring, instead to hum along with elevator music. But because Nah is so insulated, he obviously thinks that there is something monumental about Rap, a brand which gets more mudane by the day except for the insignificant esoteric underground community he is so invested in.

And, actually, there is a good reason for Rap's limited appeal. There is nothing more outstanding about it than, say, C&W or Jazz or Rock 'N Roll. They all have their rabid fans and their sub-genres, and they all have their purists and afficionados and they all have interesting roots. They also all have world-world wide appeal. Just because Nah'Suh is a fanatic about Rap doesn't anoint it as being "sacred" or special. And considering how society is evolving and science advancing, it's myopic to believe that Rap is the final frontier in music. Music is the universal language, there might be something new out there in space that is just waiting to be tapped into.

If Nah'sun, with all of his arrogance, is older than we think he is, he's doing a good job of misleading us.

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And considering how society is evolving and science advancing, it's myopic to believe that Rap is the final frontier in music. Music is the universal language, there might be something new out there in space that is just waiting to be tapped into.

Absolutely! This sums up nicely my train of thought when I said that it will be interesting to see what my kids' generation comes up with.

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Yes it is clear at this point the age thing irks you. You'll be more sensitive when you are older and realize youngins have increasingly little respect for the experience and knowledge age brings.

Nah'Sun you may know more about some aspects of the book world than I do. It depends on a combination of your experiences, study and interests. No one knows everything about anything. We are all continuously learning.

The fact that you view Hip-hop as a culture really explains the rest.

I fully appreciate there are Brothers out there who have are attempting to elevate Hip-hop into a culture, a way of living, giving it religious significance --- and that is cool. I just don't buy into it at that level.

The folks you mentioned Kevin Powell (who has posted here in the past), KRS-1 and the others make their living talking to the youth. The average working stiff really does not care that much.

Michael Dyson and Cornell, speak the language of those they talk to and are quite skilled at it. So when a Michael Dyson spits some lyric he has committed to memory it is a gimmick used to show he is "down with the masses". The audience is generally entertained and young folks find it endearing, "Look ma, the old ivy league professor knows a Nas rap!" It is the same reason Barack sang Al Green, and had a "beer summit" with the Boston red neck.

I'm intrigued by hip-hop culture though. I'll start another conversation and see if I can recruit some hip-hip heads to participate.

But don't get me wrong I'm not enemy of hip-hop:

index.2.gif

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Well said, Troy. Your remarks were the reflection of an overview that bespeaks of maturity.

I'm sure Nah'Sun skipped my post because he thinks I'm unqualified to speak on the subject. He reason for this would probably include the opinion that I am "old and over the hill". Like you suggest, Nah'sun's sensitivity about the age thing only seems to apply his chronology

I admit I am not qualified to speak on the dyamics of Rap but I can give input on how its totality resonates with society at large; this is where the question of a broad perspective comes in. And I am also attuned enough to detect the underlying tone of Nah'sun's posts, the gist of which was a condesending attitude and an assumption that his undying devotion to hip-hop made him above reproach. Yes, he is knowledgable about the subject so near and dear to his heart, but not being able to see past your nose is a short sightedness more commonly found in youth. :rolleyes:

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Cynique, I give credit to Nah'Sun for even engaging. But what is the point of engaging if you are so closed minded? You lose the benefit of the activity. It is not about showing how smart you are or how much you know. It is about benefiting from the exchange by exposing your ideas to critique and hopefully having a little fun while you are at it.

While Nah'Sun may be knowledgeable his level of knowledge is constrained by the box he has put himself in.

It is like the American, who has never had a passport, has never read anything written by someone outside his community and still KNOWS the US is the best country in the world.

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@ Troy

Side A

As a person who learns from different School of Thoughts, I’m far from closed minded

Now you're attacking my character...I'll let that one slide and take that comment as tongue and cheek

I admitted to not knowing much about the book publishing industry...so how the hell admitting my ignorance about certain things a mark of closed mindedness or immaturity?

You're reaching for the moon hoping to grab Mercury

Side B

I didn’t say rap music is the be-all-end-all of American music

I’m saying it’s the last American art form in music because nothing has come out AFTER it

Side C

The reason why the age thing irks me is because older people think that a numerical value based on the Gregorian calendar gives them validity to know everything or have a larger range of knowledge, wisdom and understanding when that’s a farce

My ego is not massive to not learn from those who are younger than me

You NEVER stop learning, like you stated…I don’t give a damn if you’re 200 years old…you’re ignorant of something that someone can give you knowledge about even if a youth brings something new to your attention

The elders not learning from the youth and vice versa is one of the major reasons why a generation gap is present

It’s funny how older folk place their ego on age as if that’s the only thing they have worth living for…LOL

Side D

Culture - the quality in a person or society that arises from a concern for what is regarded as excellent in arts, letters, manners, scholarly pursuits, etc.

By definition, Hip-Hop IS a culture with its own way of talking, fashion, literature, arts, music, dancing, etc.

The Zulu Nation can tell you that…LOL

They study Hip-Hop in colleges and universities

Hip-Hop was thought of as a culture years before money came into play

We have two different views about Hip-Hop (which means Higher Infinite Power Healing Our People)

And I got that definition from Professor Griff and the Black Dot

As far as Michael Eric Dyson…I agree that he’s robotic when it comes to rap and tries way too hard…but hey, at least he’s trying…LOL

Oh yeah...Kevin Powell used to write for Vibe Magazine...he's been writing about Hip-Hop before he stepped into the political arena

Side E

As far as Cynique…I studied her posting style as a lurker…therefore, I won’t bother replying to her in this particular subject since she admitted to having no knowledge to back her so-called debate

I never said rap and Hip-Hop are perfect, but don't act like other forms of music don't have their share of criticism

As far as yourself…

I don’t think you’re an enemy of Hip-Hop…you just don’t know much about the culture to engage in an argument with someone who does

You saying Hip-Hop is not a culture gives validity to my thought

Point blank

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All old people don't think what you accuse them of thinking in your self-serving statement, Nah'Sun. Many of them draw their conclusions by simply listening to the self-indicting things that young people say. (I noticed you felt the need to tell us that you've been referred to as an "old soul".) And your oblique response to what I've written in my posts is well-noted. Come up with a better rationale for being chicken. Fact of the matter is, I wasn't debating. I was broadening the discussion by expressing another point of view. And, actually, your contentions weren't objective enough to spark a good debate. In attempting to score points against Troy, you didn't rebut him, all you did was contradict him. :wacko:

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@ Cynique

I said, and I quote on 26 September 2012 - 04:07 PM

I’m considered an old soul (whatever that means)…so my perception is supposedly different from those in my age bracket

Ya'll playing games now

LMAO

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I'm serious, Nah'Sun, when I say that you take the same stance about old people that you accuse us of taking about young people. But you can't seem to discern this. You whine about old people talking down to you, yet it doesn't seem to occur to you how you try to dismiss older people. Somebody as advanced as you think you are, would recognize this inconsistency. :wacko:

If you were really cool, you'd do a Jay-Z and brush off references to your age like crumbs on your shoulder. But, nooooo, you continue to pout about us not regarding you as our peer. Me, I don't give a damn if you think I'm "over-the-hill", particularly since the wisdom that comes with age allows me to accept that I ain't never been on top of the hill when it comes to being an author. ^_^

Go somewhere and spin your frisbee - oops, I mean your records. :P

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@ Cynique

Here you go with the classic Cynique baiting

I'll take the bait to entertain myself for the moment

I'm not whining about "old" people taking down to me...I think it's funny in the grand scheme of things

Especially since no one in this thread knows how old I am :lol:

And yes, I still own a record player...Gemini to be exact...vinyl in great shape as well

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My reference to records was in response to your saying you were a DeeJay.

No, I don't know how old you are. But you're younger than Troy. And Troy is younger than me. So - I pull rank.

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So Nah'Sun you are opened minded? It was not an attack, just an observation. But if you can point to anything you've written in the week or so that we've been carrying on this conversation I'd be glad to read it and reconsider my observation.

I write that you are closed minded because you don't seem willing to let new information in, if it goes counter to your current beliefs. Again that is nothing new; it is more common than not.

Here is an example; If I tell you I witnessed, first hand, the birth of hip-hop. People who are really interested in learning more might take pause and say hey -- as much as I know about hip-hop here is a Brother that witnessed it from the beginning; maybe it is worth hearing what he has to say, perhaps it will give me a new perspective -- better yet I'll take advantage of the forum and ask him some questions. Maybe I'll try to understand why he no longer feels the same way he used to feel.

But because I tell you I don't by into all the depth and gravitas others ascribe to hip-hop, you tell me I don't know anything about it. This is a religious debate -- pointless. As pointless as a scientist trying to get a Christian to believe dinosaurs were long extinct before man came along or that there is nothing wrong with same sex marriage...

But like your relative age, your are also sensitive about any slight against hip-hop. I'm just not sure why, unless the strengths of your beliefs are a little shaky.

As an aside, and I'm just speaking for myself here, I try not to insult, demean or attack people personally here or anywhere or in the real world. I do try to be honest and sometimes when you are not mincing words that can be construed as an attack.

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Sorry for the intrusion but HEY HEY HEY... IT'S ME, A FLASH FROM THE PAST, Mr. CareyCarey :-) . Greeting all. It appears I've arrived a little late for this party -- ongoing discussion. However, I only stopped by to gloat :P . That's right, for those who are new to this site, on several occasions since president Obama took office, Troy, Cynique and a few others have debated our presidents' chances of gaining a second term. Well, on several occasions Cynique and Troy implied it was a done deal. Yep, Troy thought he (Obama) was one and done (I believe he said he wouldn't vote for him). Now, on the other hand I was persistent in my opinion that he's a lock for a second term. So now I am coming back to gloat.... HOW YOU LIKE US NOW -_-! You know, let me remind you guys that I always asked the question "if not Obama than who?". But nawl, Troy and his sidekick always ran from that question. Anyway, now that the out-of-touch Mr. Get-Rich Romney is the Republican's choice, there's no turning back. Now we have that clown sticking his foot in his big rich mouth, overseas and at home. Consequently, this election is a done deal. When he slapped practically every middle-class American with his 47% remark, the fat lady stood-up to sing. And please, don't even think about the upcoming debates.... SLAM-DUNK... LAY UP... this will be like taking candy from a baby. Listen, President Obama is arguably the best orator of the last 50 years. Heck, in my opinion he's in the top 5 of ALL TIME! So, as I've said in the past, most people vote by their hearts, not because of their concerns on the issues ( i.e, Obama's stand on medicare, the jobless rate or tax issues) . Therefore, since Romney is plastic, wooden and basically a flip-flopper, the debates will only add to -- expose -- his out of touch with the average American persona. Now I am sure you guys have heard the saying "what leaves the heart will find another's". Well, in short, you can fool some of the people some of the time, but Romney has stuck his foot in his mouth one too many times. The upcoming debates WILL NOT be his saving grace. Lights out and game over... landslide victory for Barack Hussein Obama, the 44th and current President of the United States. Having said that, it's now time for me to sing a song by the Ohio Players, IT'S ALL OVER! " Put that suitcase down, darlin'

we ain't leavin' town, they know they need us around. It's all over - but the shoutin'. :D

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@ Troy

Side A

Cut it out, Troy

Just because you were there in the beginning doesn’t mean you have a full understanding of the Hip-Hop culture

There are people who are older than you who STILL don’t get it

You have negroes who lived in the 60s and STILL don’t know much about the Black Panther Party

I’m not interested in learning about Hip-Hop from you because your knowledge of Hip-Hop is limited

Simple as that

You don’t view Hip-Hop as a culture like its forefathers do

So why would I learn anything from you about Hip-Hop besides surface information that I can get from someone who REALLY lived the culture?

That’s like asking a tiger how it’s like to live as an elephant

You remind me of that elder who claim they know everything about the Civil Rights Movement but never participated in marches, sit-ins, riots, etc

Side B

I take that back…I’m NOT open minded

I won’t smoke crack to try out its effects…so I guess I am closed minded

Side C

The age thing is dead…leave it alone

You don’t know how old I am…so that issue is moot

It’s funny how you switched from the topic of Hip-Hop to the issue of age to cover up your lack of knowledge about the subject we’re on now]

Classic example of diversion

I see you

LOL

Side D

I’m not religious…so I don’t know what it’s like to be dogmatic

*shrugs*

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In the interim of waiting for Troy's response to your stone-walling, Nah'Sun, because I am curious about what is so integral to who you are. What is the hip-hop culture?? I know - if I have to ask, I don't need to know.

Nevertheless, in my limited understanding, this is what I have observed and deduced from my little senior citizen perch in a suburb of Chicago. Hip-hop is a mystique whose credo is about "keeping it real" as exemplified by an appreciation for authentic rap which is the music of the street, - an art form that incorporates the spoken word when expressing the violence, vulgarity and disillusionment of the hood. I'd guess hip-hop attire leans toward casual chic or sports gear, and for guys, a pair of Timberland boots and high-priced designer gym shoes a requisite. I'd assume an awareness of Afro American roots is a given, including a passing knowledge of cool jazz and an appreciation of R&B. Natural hair-dos would be the preference of hip-hoppers, ala afros, corn-rows, twists or the dread-locked extensions that can be defined as "affectations". Drug of choice: weed. Expensive booze a priority. Booty calls a plus. Marriage optional...bibliography: gritty street lit from the past and present, along with works of radical intellectualism...idiom bi-lingual, alternating between Ebonics and standard English. Demeanor: swagger. Politics: anti-establishment.

Correct me and explain what is it that makes the smug disciples of this ho-hum counter-culture consider it so special???

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Nah’Sun I am interested to see how you answer Cynique’s question. I think it is a valid one. To add to it, I figured I’d throw my own question out there for the "expert":

How do you feel about the negative images of women and the violent images of the black community as painted by many of the songs in rap/hip hop?

I personally loved hip hop in my younger days and can still remember watching my older brother and his friends break-dancing in my parents’ driveway to music blaring out of a big silver boom box. Dougie Fresh & the Get Fresh Crew, Lisa Lisa & Cult Jam, Slick Rick, LL Cool J (not in any particular order, just naming what comes to mind - and forgive me if I spelled some names wrong). I remember being a steady fan of the music all the way until Snoop & Dr. Dre hooked up together. I still smile when I hear “I, two, three and to the four…” Good times those were for me, and even a little bit when Eminem showed up on the scene.

But as I continued to get older and live life (get married, have kids, have divorces, lose people, gain people, etc etc), the music got older and took various twists and turns, and more and more I began to be bothered by the negativity of some of the music. Women really got targeted and I started getting sick of it. It got to the point where I didn’t want to listen to any of it.

And the truth of the matter is, today, my preferred music is Country. Reason? Simple. The stories they tell. They are true-like stories without all the demeaning attitudes toward women. I find it shameful that we who supposedly love our people and love our music and yeah, even love hip hop, can sit here and act like we don’t have a problem with some of the stuff that gets produced (and it isn’t just mainstream so don’t come at me with the radio argument).

One day, about 7 or 8 years ago I decided to listen to something different. Caught a music video on television by Kenney Chesney called “There Goes My Life.” I watched the video. It was one that I could relate to; a song about a man whose daughter grows up and leaves home. I ended up watching the whole video. Then I found myself trying to catch the video again so I could hear the song and listen to the story again. And that’s how I found that I liked country music. And I listen to it to this day - because of the stories it tells. Hip hop? Well, it just isn’t the same. It doesn’t give me anything useful or even entertaining (beyond a good beat; a beat which gets ruined by the words). Too much of hip hop is revolved around the exploitation of women and our black communities for my tastes.

Question repeat:

How do you feel about the negative images of women and the violent images of the black community as painted by many of the songs in rap/hip hop?

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Nah'Sun, I never wrote I have a full understanding of hip-hop. While I know a lot about some things I would never say I have a full understanding of anything.

However because I was there from the beginning of hip-hop, I have a knowledge of hip-hop you don't have and you will never will have because you are too arrogant to even be interested.

No, I don't view hip-hop the way you view it, but I don't view Christianity the way a church deacon might. That however that does not mean that I don't know anything about either one. To assume so is just... dumb.

It will be interesting to read your response to Cyqniue and Writergirl's questions.

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@ Writer Girl

Side A

For one, I already said rap music isn't perfect

And two, why not talk about the rap music that brings forth intellectual and consciousness to the masses???

It's funny how people who LEAST listen to rap music have MORE to say about it

The majority of rap music buyers are women

Why not ask THEM that question???

Rap music is the reflection of society...if you wanna so-called clean up rap, then clean up the mentality of the people

Rap didn't create the public...the public created rap

Side B

Country music is your preference...I don't knock anyone for their choice of music

If that's your cup of henny, more power to you

You act like all rap is demeaning to women when you have songs like "Brown Skin Lady" by Black Star (Mos Def and Talib Kweli) and "Beautiful Skin" from Goodie Mobb that big up women

There are countless other songs that promote women in a positive light, but it seems like either you're only exposed to the so-called negative or you don't listen to a lot of rap to see the variety

That's like saying all Black men are criminals and dead beat dads based on shows like COPS and Maury

You need to stop

@ Troy

Once again...

You being there doesn't mean anything when you weren't an active participant

Because if you were an active participant in the 80s, you'll know Hip-Hop is a culture

Looking outside your window and watching from afar doesn't mean you know Hip-Hop

It ain't where you from, it's where you at - Rakim

You don't even know where I'm from...LOL

You a funny dude

And for someone who champions Street Lit, which has it's own share of misogny, you have the nerve to see how I response to those two posters

Okay, let me ask you these questions:

How do you feel about misogny in Street Fiction?

What do you know about Hip-Hop?

And don't Google either...LOL

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Sigh.

I had a tad bit of hope that you'd at least TRY to answer the question. But since you didn't, I'm not going to waste my time with this any more. Have fun convincing yourself that you have said something insightful. I've learned nothing from reading your posts.

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I hear ya, writergirl. I thought Nah'Sun would jump at the chance to correct and enlighten my impression of hip-hop. Maybe he's too traumatized to respond to a descrption that fails to glorify what he worships. :P

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Nevertheless, in my limited understanding, this is what I have observed and deduced from my little senior citizen perch in a suburb of Chicago. Hip-hop is a mystique whose credo is about "keeping it real" as exemplified by an appreciation for authentic rap which is the music of the street, - an art form that incorporates the spoken word when expressing the violence, vulgarity and disillusionment of the hood. I'd guess hip-hop attire leans toward casual chic or sports gear, and for guys, a pair of Timberland boots and high-priced designer gym shoes a requisite. I'd assume an awareness of Afro American roots is a given, including a passing knowledge of cool jazz and an appreciation of R&B. Natural hair-dos would be the preference of hip-hoppers, ala afros, corn-rows, twists or the dread-locked extensions that can be defined as "affectations". Drug of choice: weed. Expensive booze a priority. Booty calls a plus. Marriage optional...bibliography: gritty street lit from the past and present, along with works of radical intellectualism...idiom bi-lingual, alternating between Ebonics and standard English. Demeanor: swagger. Politics: anti-establishment.

Correct me and explain what is it that makes the smug disciples of this ho-hum counter-culture consider it so special???

A few rappers advocated voting (remember Rock the Vote?)

David Banner loaded buses of food and water and was one of the FIRST to help out victims of Hurricane Katrina when Prez Bush was slow with his response

But nobody wants to bring that up, right?

LOL

The groups below (De La Soul, A Tribe Called Quest, Monie Love and The Jungle Brothers) are considered "real" Hip-Hop, and they don't fit your description of what Hip-Hop is about

In fact, they denounced the materialism and those same vulgarities you claim that's Hip-Hop in their albums

Rap music isn't monolithic

There are rappers who are vegetarian and rap about the dangers of eating red meat and the consumption of liquor (see Dead Prez "Healthy")

But nobody wants to bring that up, right?

The stereotype of Hip-Hop is hiliarious when it comes from Black people, those who are a victim of those same stereotypes...LOL

TheNativeTongue_page-bg_7541.jpg

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Nah'Sun

Perhaps nobody is bringing these groups (and these positive aspects) of hip hop up because nobody has any questions about them. The question I had, in particular, is regarding the negative side of hip hop. I even gave you an example of what keeps my interest concerning music (i.e. country music fan bc of the stories told in the music) and I thought I explained why I ventured away from hip hop (got tired of the negativity). And I asked what I thought was a straight forward question. You are the one who claims to BE hip hop, and so naturally one would think that you would be willing to discuss all sides - good, bad, and indifferent. But you do nothing more than answer questions with more questions and flat out rude, senseless accusations.

I'm done.

No, seriously...I'm done, even though I know you're going to come back with more insults.

And you won't see an LOL here because this isn't funny. This going around in circles is counterproductive.

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Tell 'em, writergirl! :angry:

In other words, Nah'Suh, like the world in general where types of people run the gamut from A-Z, hip-hoppers are just ordinary mopes with one thing in common: they call themselves "hip-hoppers". Big friggin deal. <_< zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Frankly at this point, I've decided that hip-hoppers take themselves a lot more seriously than I do. Suffice to say, I really couldn't care less what they represent. They are what they are, and I bet Halloween with its costumes and trick or treat tradition is their favorite holiday. :ph34r:

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Nah'Sun

Believe me, from one who has fought many "battles" (arguably over 200) with the duo of Troy and Cynique, you're handling your business. Keep in mind that Cynique will never-ever, no never concede a point. Troy might throw you a bone but not Cynique. She's an expert at clouding the issue and moving the goal post (you've probably noticed that). Anyway, I skimmed over this thread. You've made several valid points but your opposition will never admit to that, so don't be deterred by their indifference. Hold your ground... you're doing a good job.

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What points of Nah'Suh's haven't I conceded? I said I wasn't an expert and was giving my impression of hip-hop. Am I obligated to like hip-hop just because he does? As usual you're a day late and a dollar short, carey, seeing things that aren't there. What brought you back here? Nobody stopping by your sorrry-assed blog to read your drivel??? Poor ol fella. :wacko:

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Now now Cynique, don't be so mean. I thought fine black wine mellowed with age? Besides, you know the lick... there's no place like home. And since I was born and raised in this here brier patch, just because your name is now on the door, don't be asking me what brought me back. Just say that you missed me. :wub:

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Get over yourself, carey. I've missed you like I'd miss a toothache. And nobody cares about your tenure here. All of your old cohorts have moved on. You're just another name on the roster, somebody whose reappearance inspires nothing more than a squint.

Sulking about why you could never shut me down, is equivalent to an old dog licking his wounds while waiting for somebody to throw him a bone. You intruded on a perfectly good discussion with your ongoing need to discredit me. How pathetic can you get?

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