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Troy

Are interracial relationships over represented in film?

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The high school I went to drew its student body from the little villages in the district that it serviced. One of these places was heaviiy populated with Italians, a great many of whom were school mates of mine. In this setting, the Italians and Blacks didn't act any more alike than the Italians and Irish or the Italians and Jews or the Italians and Poles. To us Blacks, they were all white, and none of them acted like us who had our own style and own slang and own music, and we didn't particularly bond with any ot them on a group basis. Individual friendships that I formed with my white classmates were not based on what we had in common but on an interest and curiosity about how different we were. That's what diversity is all about.

Generalizing about ethnicities is a slippery slope and does reinforce stereotypes; an opinion I feel is as legitimate as the assertions of Pioneer.

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Let us remember that when I speak of Italian Americans, I'm talking about those whose parents and grandparents are most likely Italian American, going all the way back to Italy/Sicily.

In other words, people of PREDOMINATELY Italian descent.

I'm not talking about White people who are mostly of Polish, Irish, English, or German descent who's grandfather or great great grandfather was Italian and they just caught the last name.

Often times people look at a persons last name and assume they're this or that.

Having an Italian last name doesn't make one an Italian American any more than the name Deval Patrick makes the governor of Massachusettes Irish.

You have a lot of blond haired blue eyed pale skinned people named Guliani and Tucci (Sicilian names) who look nothing like the swarthy dark haired natives of Sicily because their grandfather or great grandfather married into an Irish or German family.

In urban America whether we're talking New York, Chicago, Detroit, or Philly.....for over a century most of the White ethnic groups kept their distance from eachother and tended to marry only in their own ethnic group UNTIL Black people started moving up from the South and this tended to unite them along the basis of being "White". Then they started marrying among eachother.

When I look at some of the old photos of Detroit back in the 20s and 30s before it became a Black city, it was divided up into many ethinc neighborhoods and it's remarkable how dark haired and swarthy and "ethnic looking" the Jews and Italians who had just came to America looked.

The loud colors they wore and the spicy foods they ate that other "Whites" didn't seem to tolerate from them too well.

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Hi Pioneer of course I’m focused on your reasoning as your conclusions are a direct consequence of it.

Using your calculator analogy; if you were trying to calculate, say the volume of a sphere, but used the wrong formula, the calculator would give you the right calculation but the wrong answer.

Pioneer you are missing my point – even if I agreed with you based upon my own experiences I would never then jump to the conclusion that the observations applied to any other Italians than the ones you and I have observed. As a result, based upon what you have told me I would not assume you are right – regardless of my observations.

If you are restricting your observation to ONLY Italian Americans, then that would certainly bias your observations almost completely on culture.

OK let revisit what you wrote:

"Any AfroAmerican who has lived, worked, or spent any reasonable about of time around
Italian Americans
can't help but to notice some of the behavioral and even physical similarities between them and us more so than other White Americans."

I’m African America and have spent time with Italian people. I have not noticed the similarities you suggest (spicy food, loud clothing*). Now that my observations are in direct opposition to your what happens to your theory?

Black people, white people, Italian Americans are such a diverse community of people, within their own demographic, comparison with folks of a different demographic is virtually impossible with being very methodical. Drawing conclusion without doing is just an anecdotal observation – true for you but not, necessarily true in general.

________________________

*Black people liking spicy food and loud clothing is a stereotype.

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Well, it wasn't a theory....it was an observation.

However you answered my question, so I'm satisfied.

I'm not in a position to tell you what you've experienced or observed with your own eyes.

BTW, if you think that Black people having an affinity for loud colored clothing is just a mere stereotype, obviously you don't know who Steve Harvey is.

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Pioneer. Steve Harvey is just one Black man a celebrity at that. He does not reflect all Black men. He certainly does not reflect me or any of the Black men I know (and I know a lot of Black men).

That said I've seen Steve a number of times myself and I see no evidence that he has an affinity for "loud" clothing -- at least not in the last decade...

I guess you also think Black people all dance well, talk in move theaters, are good at basketball, are biased toward criminality, are poor students, are promiscuous, don't like to read, have low self-esteems, love Barack Obama unconditionally, are all Christians. like watermelon and friend chicken, love rap music, and don't know what marriage is, right?.

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((Pioneer takes off his glasses and rests them on the desk and sighs.....))

Ok.....

I said that Italian Americans tend to share more characteristics with AfroAmericans than other Whites.....and you argued this.

I say AfroAmericans tend to favor loud colored clothing and spicy foods....and you argue this.

I say females tend to be more self-concious about their body image than males....and you even argued THIS.

Now, that's enough to make even Dr Phil sit back and stretch his eyes in amazement.

Man, are you just trying to be contrary or something?

You're disagreeing with things that are commonly known to MOST Black Americans over 30.

Things that certainly no other Black person I'VE talked to disagreed with me about.

Who goes through life making absolutely no generalizations or assumptions about anything?

When you first met your wife, did you first ask her was she "straight or gay" before proceeding with any relationship?

Certainly a prudent brother like yourself who doesn't like to make presumptuous generalizations about anyone or anything wouldn't just ASSUME the woman you found attractive also found men attractive.

You most certainly had to ask her THAT question didn't you?

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I think that once you have an idea about the world it changes your lens.

Troy I will tell you what my 63 year old born in Australia Itslian nrighbor said to me last week. "I like expensive stiff or stuff that looks nice. It's stupid but Italians are stupid for this."

I thousand people would nr enough fir a sample. The problem with the sample of the thousand people that you meet is that it is skewed.

So you may not nr able to day something about the overall population. But you could make a case fir that subset. So I think you are both right to a certain degree. Take from that what you will.

Yes what Pioneer is saying is anecdotal but ut us probably TRUE fir a subset. Lastly Italian sports cars are different from Germsn and English sports cars. How many rappers do you see in Italian versus other sports cars. From memory I recall a coupleof Ferraris s couple of Lamborghinis a few Porsches and one Aston Martin. Anecdotal yes, informal no question, open to debate sure. What did Miles Davis drive a man who wasas concerned with his looks as much as his sound drive. A red Ferrari.

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:-) I like the visual. OK Pioneer, I'll give up on trying to get you to see the problem with stereotyping people.

Del, it is interesting to reject the mathematically proven fact that a finite sample can reproduce a continuous signal. But you have much less of a problem with the flawed process of using anecdotal evidence to describe an entire population.

Of course Pioneer's observations are true for a subset -- the subset he has observed. Again, this is where we part ways; using his limited observations and extending them to entire population. I guess if Pioneer lived in Greenwich Village he'd assume the majority white men were homosexual.

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Del it is a fact as simple as 1 + 1 = 2. Would you dispute 1 + 1 = 2? If so, then what I say, or what can be looked up in a first year college math text book would not matter to you. Again if a sound wave sampled at slightly higher than twice it's highest frequency (say 40K samples per second) you be able to faithfully reproduce the original sound waves from those samples.

Don't get me wrong, to Pioneer's point, even with people, if you sample enough people you can make generalizations about the group. It is not prefect as in the math case above, but you can get the margin of error down reasonably low to make generalization about a group.

My main disagreement with Pioneer is that individuals are usually not very rigorous in their observations and certainly don't make enough of them to be useful for drawing conclusion for a group.. So if is cool, and factual, to say "I've observed that American Italians and Black people have similarities", but then to make the leap to say is true for all (or even the majority) of other Italian Americans problematic.

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Okay are you saying there is no loss of fidelity. Perhaps my intuition is wrong, but I don't believe you can copy something continous using a discrete function without a loss of fidelity. What I can't quantify is what the loss is in the copying.

if you copied an analog sound using an analog format versus a digital format. Would the copies be of exactly the same quality and if not which would be higher.

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Troy

To suggest that meeting hundreds if not thousands of people from a particular group doesn't give you the right to judge them or come to any type of conclusion about them is out of the realm of human social interaction.

If everyone actually did what you suggested was the proper way.....very little would get done because everyone would have to start all over again with everyone they meet.

When you meet a person for a business transaction and shake thier hand you do it because you've done it dozens/hundreds/thousands of times before with other people.

You've made a PRE-sumption that this is the proper way to greet.

You don't show up to a meeting and just stand there with glazed eyes looking at people waiting for them to make the first move, you came smiling with a hand stuck out because that's the stereotype of business.

New York has a large African and Carribean population.

If you saw a Black man walking front of a bus with his head down reading a paper would you first ask him what language he speaks before you shout, "Hey playa....look out!"

I asked you to give me a number of people in a given population do you have to observe to make a proper judgement about them and you still haven't given me an answer.

If MOST of the Italian Americans that I've seen whether in the Midwest or MidAtlantic or Canada tend to like gold jewelry, chase women (if they're men), and have dark hair....and that's not a big enough sample to come to certain conclusions about them, then how big must the sample be?

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Pioneer, as Del suggests a class in statistics, demography would be required. I'm not prepared give those classes right now, so I'm not going to give you a number. Shoot, I don't even completely understand the selection criteria you've used to draw the conclusions that Black and Italians are similar.

Honestly the comparisons you've mentioned make you sound like the eugenicists who believed Italians were closer to Black people, not fully white. Perhaps this is where the stereotype, you've embraced, started.

Del regarding sampling that would require a class too but consider the following;

The straight line defined by the points x=0, y=0 and x=3, y=4

These two samples completely describes every point on the line. This is not a proof, but maybe if can help you think about sampling in a way that appeals to you intuitively.

But our intuition is not always the best way to understand the way the world actually works. For example, on a quantum level it is not intuitive at all. None of the information we have about the way the world works in the macro world would help us on the quantum level.

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