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THE SPIRIT OF DR. MARTIN LUTHER KING/

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IS THE SPIRIT OF REV. MARTIN LUTHER KING IN BLACK CHURCHES/NO/DR. KING SACRIFICED HIMSELF, HE KNEW HE WOULD BE KILLED,BLACK PREACHERS A SACRIFICED TO THEM WOULD BE NOT TAKING UP A COLLECTION 3 OR 4 TIMES ON SUNDAY,PREACHERS NEED TO DRIVE NEW CARS..PREACHERS CHEAT ON THEIR WIVES, HAVE CHILDREN WITH MISTRESSES, 3 BLACK PREACHERS ARE IN PRISON FOR KILLING THEIR WIVES.. PREACHERS ARE CROOKS.PREACHER HENRY LYONS WAS LOCKED UP 5 YEARS FOR STEALING 4 MILLION DOLLARS...THE BLACK CHURCH IS LIKE A PLANTATION CHURCH, WITH THE SOULS OF BLACK PEOPLE ENSLAVED BY THE PREACHER A BLACK SLAVE OWNER AND OVERSEER..///////

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I know since you will not reply directly this question is purely rhetorical; but here it goes anyway:

What do you propose that we do with Black ministers and churches -- blow them up and lynch all the minsters? Convert all the "saved" people and turn them into atheists or Islam?

I'm not defending the Black Church I just don't know what you expect to happen. Now that it is a very lucrative money machine and source of power what makes you think anyone will relinquish it?

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This is nothing new.

Historically in Western societies the people have been controlled BY the political institutions THROUGH the religious institutions....

Whether we're talking about India, Greece, or even the United States.

Communism attempted to break this up but it failed to do so.

Rather than preaching on staunch unbending morality, many of these "prosperity preachers" will sing the songs of whoever give them the most money, whether it's the politicians who give them tax breaks and government grants for them to help the people the GOVERNMENT should be helping.....or the congregation itself who will give the most money to the preacher who ignores their immoral lifestyle and tell them that what they're doing is ok.
 


((hush.....quiet...))


But a deeper problem also exists that is manifesting itself in the Black church.....
Especially since Black people have relative freedom to behave as they wish in this modern more liberal and open society.

Th fact is, Christianity (especially as it's practiced today) was not founded by or for people of African decent.
Many of it's moral doctrines and structures go against our nature as a people.  The Black church is just an attempt to walk between 2 different worlds.

Whether it's Black Americans, Black Africans, Black Latinos, or Blacks in the Middle East....
If you are a Black person and you are attempting to structure your life and morality on a system developed by White men from Northern Europe.....your community is going to be in shambles.

Let us start with the family structure that the Church demands.
The monogamous marriage system that the Western Church demands is incongruent with the natural structure of the Black family because Black men in general are more polygamous than White men from Northern Europe.

((Troy calm down and don't break your keyboard banging out your response to my statements.....lol.))



We can't imitate them in their sexual and familial customs and expect to be as successful as them, any more than they can attempt to have 7 wives/women/girlfriends like so many Black men around the world and successfully satisfy them.  Adultery is rampant in the Black church and Black family for a simple reason, Black men trying to live in a family structure that wasn't designed by or for them and Black women not understanding why Black men can't be more like White men.

Black people HAD a family structure and system of morality that worked for us.  Both the men and women accepted it and the household was stable under it; but it was stripped from many of our people during slavery and colonialism so now many of the problems you see in the Black church and in the Black community at large is the dysfunctional result of trying to fit into a system that wasn't designed for us in the first place.



Now.................lol.

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LOL, Pioneer.  I know I've made an impact as you are now aware at least aware of how statement like "Black men in general are more polygamous than White men from Northern Europe" might be found so profoundly problematic.

 

As you may have gathered I don't think Black and white people are very different as many people do.  The differences in class and culture are much more profound that skin color.  Black people in America really do have more in common with white people in American that they do with Black people anywhere in African (not controlled by the West).

 

I do not believe for a split second Black men are more polygamous than white people.  There are polygamous white groups right here in the US.  I could poke holes in the theory all day.  But I won't bother...

 

...because I actually agree with your conclusions.  Clearly, this system does not serve the formerly enslaved people in the US.

 

It seems the only people interested in getting married are homosexual.  Sure Black married men sleep around, but supporting multiple wives and raising the resulting offspring is a COMPLETELY different thing that just screwing those women.

 

So while this system dominated by the dictates of the Christian church (monogamy, etc) clearly is not working very well for us.  There are those that will argue that if EVERYONE was a Christian then all the problems would be solved.  I think it is obvious that would never work.

 

I have no clue what would model would work better for us, so I'm inclined to believe improving our current system is as good an idea as any...

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Why is polygamy always assumed to be the domain of men? Since we aren't bothering to prove brash statements like men around the world having multiple wives who are satisfied with this set-up, let's make some other brash statements. If they could avoid society relegating them to the ranks of sluts, there are just as many women who would also like multiple mates, because rare is the man who can satisfy all of her needs. The practice of women fakin it, and the consensus among them that size matters are testaments to that. <_<

What woman wouldn't like the complete package; a smart, good lookin, gainfully employed guy with an interesting personality, a handy man, a stud, an affectionate, understanding person with a good sense of humor. The chances of finding the single embodiment of all of these traits among the pseudo intellectual, egotistical, pimpin, shiftless, dumb playas who are more prevelant in black men are slim. A sista would have better luck with a roster of dudes to fufill each one of her desires, because Mr. Right doesn't exist. In this age of hookin up, and "friends with benefits", women are losing their inhibitions and are just as inclined to polygamy as men. if she could have a husband for every need, don't think a woman wouldn't appreciate variety being the spice of life, especially when it comes to sex. With the emotional fulfillment that comes from a menu of satisfying relationships, a woman would have no problem with a smorsgasbord of men.. :wub:


 But children do, indeed, throw a monkey wrench into everything. And because they are more sensitive and responsible than the backsliding womanizers who are more prevelant among black men, their women defer to the obligations that come with motherhood. They tolerate the clods they have settled for, and find consolation in fantasizing about being polygamous. :rolleyes:

Just some thoughts that jumped into my head when I sat down in front of my computer monitor and placed my hands on my keyboard. ;)

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Cynique, was that divine inspiration or simply the only thing you could have written given the circumstance and your genetics?

 

I saw a video of a woman engaged in activity in which she clearly had "no problem with a smorsgasbord of men"  :wacko: somehow moving in that direction as a society does not seem optimal, but hey whatever floats your boat.

 

So while it may be true women are just a desirous of having multiple partners as men (which is likely since the men have to be screwing someone); are you suggesting that a society in which men can have many wives and women can have many husbands would be a better setup? 

 

I'm not sure that women are more sensitive and more responsible with their children.  This may have been true in the past, but increasingly children of unwed partners often end up being shuttled back and forth like ping pong balls between parents, raised by grandparents, foster parents or the criminal justice system.  Talk any grade school teacher in a poor Black community...

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:lol: My response was "inspired" by Pioneer's ridiculous male chauvanistic assertions, Troy.  And It is a reaction that I would consider as being unique to my core personality because I am a skeptic and inclined to spoof that which others are serious about. 

 

I was also reminding Pioneer and others that females like variety, too.  I wasn't suggesting  or recommending anything, except maybe that women should indulge their fantasies when it comes to multiple partners, thus avoiding being labeled a slut by a hypocritical society. 

 

And my remarks about women being "sensitive" and "responsible" were not in reference to unwed mothers, but ones who had been practical enough to "settle" for ordinary husbands.

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Troy

Well even modern science that you put so much of your faith in will confirm the fact that Black men in America have more testosterone than White men on average.

This is a scientific fact.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3455741

 


http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0039128X92900325


It's hard to dig up stats clearly showing that Black men have more testosterone without them adding something negative to the numbers like violence or prostate cancer.

When it comes to something making White men look good like wealth status or academic scores, you can find THOSE stats all over the place; but when it comes to stats that make US look good like who has the most testosterone or who has the biggest penises.....studies are always "inconclusive".....lol.
More studies have to be done....lol.

Nevertheless science acknowledge that good or bad Black men indeed have higher testosterone levels which by default makes us more virile and fertile.


All that crap going on in Utah and Big Love and other cults leaders who kidnap these girls and run off into the deserts and mountains to start their own little tribes are just attempts by Mormons and other White separatists at some eugenics program.  Those men seem to be more interested in "breeding" a certain type of human and controling their source/women rather than sexually satisfying themselves.

The fact is most sociologists and archeologists know the nature of Black people better than many Black people know themselves. They know our history and our family structures and what works best for us.
They also know that disrupting our natural family structure and imposing one designed for men with a lower sex drive while at the same time openly and subliminally instilling contempt and disrespect for Black men into Black women would disrupt the Black family and keep it in a state of instability.

The good thing about living in the United States in 2013 is this is the first time in this nation that we as AfroAmericans have the social freedom to experiment and see what type of families are best for us instead of being stuck in an out-dated model that is clearly not working.


I agree with you that there is a big difference betweeen having a lot of girlfriends that you're just screwing, making babies with, and not taking care of; and having actual wives that you're supporting and raising your children properly.

In ancient African and Native American systems where the economies were controled by Blacks/Native Americans.....you didn't have the type of racial discrimination and crony-capitalist games that keep so many Black and Brown men on the low end of the economic ladder and in many cases out of the workforce all together like you have in a White male controled Western system. So Black fathers didn't have those issues of not taking are of their responsibilities then.

Hell, even back 50 and 60 years ago when there were plenty of factory jobs for low and unskilled workers without degrees to make a decent living, the problem of Black men not taking care of thier women and children wasn't as wide spread as it is today.

One of the things I want to do with my organization is bring back the manufacturing jobs so that men without college degrees can still earn a good living to take care of their families and then they'll be no excuse for thier dishonorable behavior.

Right now men have the freedom to have sex with whom they will, but they don't have a right to a decent job to take care of their responsibilities.....this is often a recipe for disaster.

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Cynique

A "thought that just jumped up in your head" huh.....?????

Something tells me those thoughts have been marinating in that noggen for a good minute, lol.

That petition you wrote against Black men would make even Martin Luther (not the King) step back and take notes for his next Reformation!





Did you see that "Now........lol" I put on the end of my post?

I put that there with YOU in mind, lol.

I mentioned Troy by name, but if I had mentioned that YOU'D probably be tearing into this thread like a mad bull at a Christmas party just because I DARED to mention polygamy.....well...you probably wouldn't have even given me the satifaction of being right.



Now Cynique,

((gentle smile))

Listen, as much as I'd love to trade licks with you over the male/female dynamics in the Black community, I can't have you wailing and crying about being the only female here and how it's not fair and how the men here are ganging up on you if somebody just agrees with ONE point I make....lol. So I'll just make several quick points and move on:

1. To answer your question why is polygamy the domain of men
You KNOW that poly"ANDRY" will never work among women for 1 very important reason:
Because sex drive is largely determined by testosterone and women in general only have a fraction of what men have, most women have a much lower sex drive and simply DON'T WANT to have mutliple sexual partners.



2. I support the right for a woman to have multiple men just like men can have multiple women if they so wish.
And so does this society. I hear what you're saying about a double standard for men and women. And I agree, there is. But it's a SOCIAL standard, not legal. Regardless of what "society" may call her, no one is standing in the way and preventing any woman who wants multiple boyfriends from having them nor is anyone threatening to imprison them or stone them.
This ain't Afganistan.
Which leads me to my third point.....



3. Most women don't have mutliple men because THEY DON'T WANT MORE THAN ONE MAN in their life at one time.

Because of thier biology and chemistry, most women are monogamous and seek comfort and security in only one man who can provide for her.

Not all obviously, but most.

Most women by nature seem to love only one man at a time while men can fall in love with more than one woman at one time.
Take it from a man who HAS actually loved (genuine love) more than one woman at the same time, that it's real.



4. Women have much more to lose being promiscuous than men because they are more likely to get physically hurt by an abusive partner and because only they can get pregnant they are more likely left with the responsibility of caring for any children that would result. So society and nature encourages women to be less promiscuous and more careful when it comes to sexual activity than men. Most know this instinctively which is why they generarlly come to eachothers aid when they're having relationship problems more than men tend to do with eachother.



The general theme is this......



Because of biological and important social reasons, while most men desire multiple women.....most women only desire one man.
Encouraging polyandry among women won't work because most women just don't have the desire to do it. But you really shouldn't "Playa hate" on men who desire it for themselves just because YOU don't want to do it.

Now rather than trying to "even the score" or "get back" at men; the noble thing to do is respect the inherent differences betwen males and females and stop trying to change men into women or condemn them if they don't conform to what nature has not designed them for.

The only thing you should ask is that a man not lie to you and tell you that you're the only one he loves if he really has others AND that he take care of the children that he helped you bring into this world.

*sigh*

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I guess you didn't notice all of the emoticons I included in my posts or that I referred to my response as a "spoof", Pioneer. Instead you, in all of your benign paternalism, proceed to portray me as a belligerant, high-strung female, intimidated by the male posters, and ill-informed about the sex habits of not only men, but women. Puleeze.  Believe me, my reaction to what you men sputter about is aways tempered with amusement. :lol:

 
What your dissertation on polygamy inspired in me was drawn from my participation in a half century of "girl talk" centered around how elusive Mr. Right is. Why? I say again, it's because it's hard for a gal to find everything she is looking for in one guy. It seems like the bad boys who are often the best lovers are losers in other areas. So wouldn't it be great to have a different mate for every need; one for hot sex, one for good companionship, one for fixing things around the house and maintaining the car, one for helping with your bills... :unsure:
 
In the meantime, while black men are pulsating with testosterone, diabetic prone and on the descent as they age, women are ascending to their peak, coming into their own as their hormones kick in, reinforcing their ability to" look up" much longer than men can "look down". No wonder boy toy studs are in increasing demand, as worries about pregnancy decrease what with the availability of birth control pills and the morning-after ones. :wub:
 
I wouldn't dispute that most females would opt for just one mate in order to avoid a hassel, but I disagree that being a member of a harem is something that women would consent to once their men have patiently explained to them the "advantages" of this arrangment.  Advantage? It's not like screwing a lot of different women enhances a man's sexual prowess. Horniness is not synonymous with being good in bed. -_-
 
(I was married for 50 years to my late husband. What got us through was that we were both multi-faceted.) :P
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

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Pioneer something I don;t think you really read all the information on the links you provide on more than one occasion the information supported my point.

 

The 2nd link did not reveal anything, so will can ignore it.  The 1st link was more interesting at least posting some of the methodology.  But consider this how did they decide that these people were "black" (or white), by looking at them?  Is Tiger Woods or Barack Obama Black for the purpose of this study?

 

Cynique I was wondering what you thought about the idea of changing our culture's formula for family from one man and one woman who make a life long commitment through marriage to stay together and share in the responsibly of raising any kids they make?

 

This model seems fine to me, but the culture does not seem to support is at all....

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Troy

 

 

Pioneer something I don;t think you really read all the information on the links you provide on more than one occasion the information supported my point.

 

What was your point?

I thought it was that there were no differences between Black and White male sexuality.

We know that testosterone is the leading factor determining sexual energy and desire.

Those links pointing out the differences between our average testosterone levels between Blacks and Whites support MY point that Black men on average have a stronger sexual desire for more women.

 

 

 

The 2nd link did not reveal anything, so will can ignore it.

 

Not so fast, let's look at it........

This is an exerpt from the 2nd link:

"Racial/ethnic variations in male testosterone levels: A probable contributor to group differences in health

Racial and ethnic variations in serum testosterone levels were investigated among a large sample of male Vietnam era veterans. Based on geometric means, significant average differences were found between 3,654 non-Hispanic white and 525 black individuals."

It says that there were SIGNIFICANT DIFFERENCES betwen Blacks and Whites concerning their testosterone levels.

Now it doesn't come right out and say that Blacks had significantly more, but hell...it can only mean Whites are significantly higher or Blacks are significantly higher.....lol.

Based on evidence from other studies, I think it would be safe to infer that Blacks are the ones who are significantly higher.

 

The 1st link was more interesting at least posting some of the methodology. But consider this how did they decide that these people were "black" (or white), by looking at them? Is Tiger Woods or Barack Obama Black for the purpose of this study?

 

Now come on man...

We all know that the term "Black" in America stands for people of African descent regardless of the amount of African ancestry they hold.

Do you see promoting Black male sexuality and masculinity as offensive and stereotypical?

Cynique

I'm sure many women WOULD like to have it all but too many settle for the first loser who comes along and buys them a drink and gives them a compliment so who's fault is that?

Most men need an INCENTIVE to accomplish things in life.

(money, sex, fame, ect.....)

Hell, if the women in thier lives are giving them money and a place to stay and sex too, why should they bother to be anything higher than what they already are....even if it's a walking dildo, lol.

Whether he's a lawyer or a drug addict, if a woman sleeps with him she's telling him,

"Baby....I love you just the way you are. If I didn't, I wouldn't be with you now."

 

 

In the meantime, while black men are pulsating with testosterone, diabetic prone and on the descent as they age, women are ascending to their peak, coming into their own as their hormones kick in, reinforcing their ability to" look up" much longer than men can "look down". No wonder boy toy studs are in increasing demand, as worries about pregnancy decrease what with the availability of birth control pills and the morning-after ones

 

Worries about pregancy may decrease with age but worries about a dry "you-know-what" and getting thier hips knocked out of alignment from boy toys who play too rough tend to INCREASE, lol.

What you said is funny because it reminded me of the trip I took to Europe when I was in my 20s. I met so many horny older women there I didn't know what to do with myself. Most people don't know that male prostitution is big in Europe as wealthy older women often pay younger men for sex, lol. When I came back to the States I started looking at society differently as I know that many people are hiding their secret desires here.

 

I wouldn't dispute that most females would opt for just one mate in order to avoid a hassel, but I disagree that being a member of a harem is something that women would consent to once their men have patiently explained to them the "advantages" of this arrangment. Advantage? It's not like screwing a lot of different women enhances a man's sexual prowess. Horniness is not synonymous with being good in bed

Ain't you ever heard practice makes perfect LOL

We both know that while a woman wants a good man to call her own, most would GLADLY share a good man with other women than have a sorry/unattractive one all to themselves.

Now that's just a natural fact.

One of the reasons polygamy has worked through out history is because men with wealth and power attact most of the women in thier vicinity and from them they can take thier pick.   Hell, even a happily married man who is successful is often harrassed by women who KNOW the man is taken but still try to get on the bandwagon anyway.

The history of polygamy around the world doesn't just revolve around women being oppressed, but it also includes women voluntarily submitting themselves to powerful wealthy men in order to guarantee financial and often physical security.

The ego of most men are too big to submit themselves to sharing a woman.

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"MY point that Black men on average have a stronger sexual desire for more women".

 

Pioneer I have no idea what to say to you.  This was the same twisted justification racists used to lynch Black men who were viewed as genetically unable to control themselves  when it came to white women.

 

"We all know that the term "Black" in America stands for people of African descent regardless of the amount of African ancestry they hold."

 

Pioneer can't you see why this is illogical?!  If Barack Obama (Black by American standards) has a higher testosterone level than another person who Americans may consider White; what does that mean?  The so called white person could actually have more Black ancestry than Obama, but they are "passing" as so many Blacks have done and are doing.

 

"Do you see promoting Black male sexuality and masculinity as offensive and stereotypical?"

 

Yes.

 

Pioneer do you realize how racist you sound?  I thought I was racist, but you got me beat me by a long shot.  But I understand... :(

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What inspires me about your latest retort, Pioneer, is the realization that, where you are concerned, there is the world as it actually exists, and then there's "the world according to Pioneer" - a little universe where anecdotal evidence and personal impresssions and wishful thinking are the rule. It's like you've sat down and mulled things over and decided that this is the way it is, and everybody else just doesn't "get it". What you don't understand is that there are other people who are just as adept at putting their spin on things.( And,  ni-t picking spectator that I am, I do have to question the observation powers of a man who goes through life never noticing the correct spelling of a simple everyday word; it's "their" not thier", and while I'm at it , it's "definitely" not 'definately")  -_-
 
Now, let us begin. Except for ancient biblical times when everything was male-dominated, I'm not convinced that polygamy was such a success story throughout history. Great rulers may have had a succession of mistresses, but they  slept with one woman at a time while going through the motions of being faithful to the one wife they had entered into a marriage with, a woman who traditionally would have as much to offer as her husband when it came to power and wealth. BTW, the main reason Mormons have been looked down upon over the years is because of their tolerance of polygamy. <_<
 
So, practice makes perfect when it comes to being a good lover, huh.  Not necessarily. Horny men are more concerned about instant gratification, and they can be gross and overbearing. :angry:  
 
Parched pussies? Not only glands but desire are what determine lubrication, and there is no set rule about who gets dry and at what age. Plus, there are over-the-counter preparations to remedy problems in this area. :D   
 
Any woman adventurous enough to deal with a "boy toy" is someone who is not shy about being in charge. Forget the missionary position. These bed room equestrians take the top position where their thighs and knees and hips are in control. And, boy toys looking for compensation, "get with their program". ;)   
 
And gimme a break. I wouldn't call it a "fact" that women gladly share a good man with other women. In the first place, a "good womanizer" is an oxymoron, and women are notoriously good at giving ultimatums when it comes to their being the only one. Why do you think the divorce rate is so high? Or does the fact that they have sex with a guy, convey the message that they "love him just the way he is". Get real. Just because a woman sleeps with a man doesn't mean she's madly in love with him. She may simply be in the mood for a good lay. Ya think? :rolleyes:
 
It seems to me, Pioneer,  that you have drawn your conclusions from your personal encounters, and you focus on vulnerable woman who are easy to manipulate. You tend to romanticize and dramatize scenarios where men are in control. You probably steer clear of super bitch femme fatales who are just as good at running games as men are. :P
 
My conclusions are drawn from sharing conversations with 3 generations of females from a broad spectrum of life styles. :mellow:
 
Obviously, this is a subject that doesn't lend itself to generalizing because women are fickle and men have roving eyes, so it is literally different strokes for different folks. :huh:
 
 
Troy, I really don't know what would be a successful alternative to the present conventional family structure which is no longer working out that great. Hippies tried living in communes where a group of couples would move in together and mates were interchangeable and females took turns caring for the children and doing household chores while the men worked. But this didn't really catch on.
 
Maybe children should be raised by the State, living together in large centers where professionals would teach and tend to them during the week, leaving their parents free to pursue other interests without feeling guilty. Week ends would be reserved for quality time between children and parents who would both appreciate each other more.
 
Actually, I don't think the family as we know it is going to disappear any time soon. Everybody will just muddle through. :(
 
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Cynique, I don't think the family unit, as it is currently defined, will change anytime soon either -- save incorporating same sex marriage into the mix.

But your comment "Maybe children should be raised by the State" seems to be happening, at least on some level, as parent abdicate their responsibilities for rearing their children to anyone who will take them.

Today school kids are given breakfast and lunch, at a minimum. With early morning drop off and after schools programs it is not unusual for a kid to spend 10 or more hours under the supervision of a school. Kids spend most of their waking day at school, or associated program, than their parents spend at work.

Consider the cry by many education experts like Jonathan Kozol who are calling for universal, compulsory, education for children starting at age 2. Others who want a longer school day and school year.

Despite what the so called experts say, any teacher will tell you the quality of child's family environment is crucial to the success of the kid's education. Of course, it is more politically correct to blame everything thing else but the f-cked up households these kids live in, for being a major factor for the poor graduation rates, in places like Harlem.

Without strong families we can't have strong communities. So while politicians, teachers and union sit around bullshitting about improving test scores, our kids are not being educated. Meanwhile the simple families don't know enough to advocate for their own children, seemingly unaware of what is happening -- perhaps because they are several generation deep in the same crap and no no other way. We used to have PTA's; no one talks about those much any more.

Families matter. Making them stronger does not seem to be on anyone's radar.

It is in the interest of large corporation for families to be week, prison, drugs (depression, "learning disorders") and now schools are growth industries.

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Troy


 

 


Pioneer I have no idea what to say to you. This was the same twisted justification racists used to lynch Black men who were viewed as genetically unable to control themselves when it came to white women.

 

No, this isn't "twisted justifications", this is scientific TRUTH.
The average Black man is more sexually potent than the average White man and science backs this up.
Now how some White men choose to handle that knowledge is a different argument all together.

 

 


Pioneer can't you see why this is illogical?! If Barack Obama (Black by American standards) has a higher testosterone level than another person who Americans may consider White; what does that mean? The so called white person could actually have more Black ancestry than Obama, but they are "passing" as so many Blacks have done and are doing.

 

What does that mean????
It means you're proving my point....lol.

Let's look at your example..........

1. Barak Obama: half Black and half White

Compared with

2. So-called White person: only trace amounts of Black ancestry but not enough to show up in his pheontype

If Mr Obama has more testosterone than person #2 then that just further proves my point that men of African descent on average have more testosterone than White men by the fact that even one who is HALF Black has more testosterone than one who only has trace amounts.

Keep in mind we're talking about AVERAGES.
There are plenty of White men who have more testosterone than many Black men but that's not the norm.



When I asked
"Do you see promoting Black male sexuality and masculinity as offensive and stereotypical?"


You said: "Yes".


Well see that's the problem right there!

I suspected this by your reluctance to accept what most people with basic observation skills and have spent time around both Black and White men in America regulary knows.

Like many Black people who mean well, you are more worried about what White society thinks about Black males and how society sees Black males than you are of determining that actual facts and making them work for us.

I don't ascribe to Western society's deviant sense of senuality and sexuality.
To me, being highly sexual isn't shameful, offensive, or embarrassing but it's something I think a man should be PROUD of.
When we had our own socities, we didn't have sexual hangups that made us ashamed of ourselves.
White people TAUGHT Black people to be ashamed of and insecure about their sexuality.


 

 


Pioneer do you realize how racist you sound? I thought I was racist, but you got me beat me by a long shot. But I understand

 

I don't think I sound racist, I sound like a man who thinks for himself and doesn't let fear of how others MAY perceive me govern my selfworth or behavior.
I use my own mind to establish my ethics and standards and I don't let the confused perspective and views of others who don't have my best interests in mind sway me.

Perhaps you should re-examine your position and reasoning for finding the image of hyper Black masculinity offensive.
I mean sit down and really examine it and question whether it's such a bad thing outside of the context of what some White males or others may think.

 

After doing this outside of the context of what other's may think, you just might arrive at the same conclusions that I have.

 

 

 

 



 

Cynique

 

What inspires me about your latest retort, Pioneer, is the realization that, where you are concerned, there is the world as it actually exists, and then there's "the world according to Pioneer" - a little universe where anecdotal evidence and personal impresssions and wishful thinking are the rule. It's like you've sat down and mulled things over and decided that this is the way it is, and everybody else just doesn't "get it". What you don't understand is that there are other people who are just as adept at putting their spin on things.( And, ni-t picking spectator that I am, I do have to question the observation powers of a man who goes through life never noticing the correct spelling of a simple everyday word; it's "their" not thier", and while I'm at it , it's "definitely" not 'definately")

 

Perhaps you're better off dwelling on my spelling, because a few misspelt words are about the ONLY thing you've ever been able to really prove me wrong on.....lol.
 

Hey...;I can't come to MY conclusions through YOUR experiences.

I can only draw conclusions from my own observations and experiences.

I hope God blesses me to live as long and longer than you, but the fact is even if we saw and went through the exact same things we would still see things differently because men and women simply think differently.
Like I said, rather than trying to force men to see things YOUR way, perhaps men and women should just respect eachother's differences.
 

 

It seems to me, Pioneer, that you have drawn your conclusions from your personal encounters, and you focus on vulnerable woman who are easy to manipulate. You tend to romanticize and dramatize scenarios where men are in control. You probably steer clear of super bitch femme fatales who are just as good at running games as men are.

 

Obviously I draw my conclusiong from my personal encounters, which is what MOST people with common sense who don't live in a fantasy world do.
As far as avoiding "super bitch femme fatales".....damn right, lol.

I like ladies.....not "he-shes" who have more testosterone pumping through their veins than I do.
A wise man will seek a mate who will compliment him, encourage him, and bring out the best in him; not challenge his masculinity and try to tear him down at every turn.

I have an organization to run and other things on my plate.....I don't have time to play emotional games and I don't surround myself with women who play them.


One thing I have noticed about your posts in this thread.
When you talk about women you talk about "women" in general; but when you talk about the bad and dishonorable behavior of men you specify "Black men".

I'm not accusing you of this, but I've noticed that many women of color (not just Black) will submit themselves TO and tolerate things FROM White men that they'd never accept from men of color.  The only "men" they see as being real men are White men therefor any other race of men who attempt to establish themselves in a position of masculine authority are often challenged.
 


As quiet as it's kept, this subconscious contempt for Black male authority is the MAJOR cause of disharmony and instability in most Black families and even some Black organizations.

 

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Back to the subject of the proper family structure...........

While I don't think it's a good idea for the state to raise children (though an institution is often times a better place to raise them than in an abusive home) because it tends to make them less "humane"; M-PACT has been entertaining the idea of GROUP FAMILIES.

A type of family structure where you have several mothers and fathers all in one CIVIL UNION raising the children in "small village" type of household in an urban environment where there is shared responsibility between adults.

While no one in our organization has actually practiced this yet, we think this may be one of the alternative type of Black families in the future.

 

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I focus on black men, Pioneer, because that's what you focus on, with all of your mumbo jumbo about how much more lustful they are than white ones. (Wonder if black female slaves felt this way?)    

 

As for femme fatales being he-shes,  au contraire.  They are very feminine and seductive.  The game they're playing is gaining power by mesmerizing a man with their charms, flattering him with their wiles, deceiving him into believing that he as great as he thinks he is.That's why they're super,  as opposed to the guillible women who allow self-absorbed men to exploit them.   

 

Agreed that everybody sees things through their own personal lenses. The problem arises when there is a clash between fact and opinion.  Also, some people are more open-minded when it comes to tolerating opposing views. Others think their way is the only way and surround themselves with like-minded people to avoid having to face the possibility that their personal beliefs may be flawed. 

 

Men and woman don't think alike and the battle of the sexes is ongoing.  Saying they are from 2 different planets is a apt simile.

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Pioneer I can't argue with your reasoning: 

 

You believe that the amount of melanin in one's skin is directly proportional to his sexual potency, sexual desire and higher levels of testosterone.  

 

While I believe, on it's face, that belief is absurd.

 

-------------------------------------

 

I've seen the GROUP FAMILIES concept played out in a few scenarios.   It is cool for sharing responsibilities like cooking, cleaning -- even educating the children.  Things can get a little sticky if the adults start sleeping around with each other, the older children, etc, etc...  YOu have to have the right mindset, one I believe is exceedingly rare in our culture.

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Cynique
 

 

 

I focus on black men, Pioneer, because that's what you focus on, with all of your mumbo jumbo about how much more lustful they are than white ones. (Wonder if black female slaves felt this way?)

 

I didn't say "lustful".
I said VIRILE.
There's a difference.

Virility has to do with sexual power, lust has to do with sexual desire uncontroled.

Italian and Spanish men who tend to be more independant in thought than the average AfroAmerican man who's mind has been influenced and controled by the history of slavery take pride in thier repuation in being virile and macho....whether it's true or not.

 

 


As for femme fatales being he-shes, au contraire. They are very feminine and seductive. The game they're playing is gaining power by mesmerizing a man with their charms, flattering him with their wiles, deceiving him into believing that he as great as he thinks he is.That's why they're super, as opposed to the guillible women who allow self-absorbed men to exploit them.

 


Well, I actually don't thing there's nothing wrong with a woman gaming and seducing a man to be his best. She's welcomed to some of his wealth and success if she helps him get it through boosting his confidence....lol.

If you helped me to become rich and succesful, you DESERVE some of it.

 

 

 

 

 

 



Troy

 

 


Pioneer I can't argue with your reasoning:
You believe that the amount of melanin in one's skin is directly proportional to his sexual potency, sexual desire and higher levels of testosterone.
While I believe, on it's face, that belief is absurd.

But this isn't necessarily my belief.

 



First of all I said:

"Keep in mind we're talking about AVERAGES.
There are plenty of White men who have more testosterone than many Black men but that's not the norm."



Secondly
I believe AFRO-AMERICAN men have more testosterone by the fact of how our people were "bred" (if you will) through slavery. Mating the most muscular and aggressive Black people together to produce stronger slaves for a period of well over 200 years in the Western Hemisphere.

East Indians who are just as dark or darker than AfroAmericans meaning they probably have just as much or more melanine may have the same amount of testosterone as Whites.


 

 


I've seen the GROUP FAMILIES concept played out in a few scenarios. It is cool for sharing responsibilities like cooking, cleaning -- even educating the children. Things can get a little sticky if the adults start sleeping around with each other, the older children, etc, etc... YOu have to have the right mindset, one I believe is exceedingly rare in our culture.

 

Well I expect for the adults to sleep with eachother, but definately not with the children.
I believe these family structures should be tied by not just socially but legally bound CONTRACTS that force people to hold to thier responsibilities ones they agree to them.

Keep in mind these Group Families I speak of will have no more than 6 or 7 adults in a family and all would have to agree to who is pemited in the group.

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Pioneer OK now I KNOW you are playing with me with that breeding statement.  You know, you really had me going :P .  But just in case you are serious you can not breed anything into a human in 200 years --  Maybe 200,000 years. Using Averages does not help the argument as the underlying assumption is not true..

 

-------------------------------

 

I'm not sure contracts would help Group Families very much.  They don't seem to be helping traditional marriages.

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Troy
 

 


Pioneer OK now I KNOW you are playing with me with that breeding statement. You know, you really had me going . But just in case you are serious you can not breed anything into a human in 200 years -- Maybe 200,000 years. Using Averages does not help the argument as the underlying assumption is not true..

 


((Pioneer looks at Troy....looks at the audience...then raises his brows in amazement))



I thought it was almost universal knowledge among most educated Black people that slaves were selectively bred for health and strength.

You haven't heard of Black men and women being examined on the auction block for muscularity, healthy, size of hands for doing manual labor, ect...?

You haven't heard of the "studs" who were taken from one plantation to the next to have sex with the women and produce healthy strong children?

What Black people went through was called "peculiar institution" because of the unusual circumstances they went through in the process of making slaves that was different from anything practiced anywhere else in the world.
If you aren't familiar with the process by which a free and independant people from Africa were taken and transformed into a submissive labor force I suggest you start by reading a book called.


64 Years To Make A Negro
By Alfred Ali

It's quite detailed on the process on how Black people directly from Africa were "bred" in the Carribean islands before being brought to the mainlands of North and South America..




 

 


I'm not sure contracts would help Group Families very much. They don't seem to be helping traditional marriages.

 


Like any social institution, marriage is as strong as the laws that enforce it.

How many people go to jail over adultery in America?
How many people are threatened with a physical punishment for abandoning or neglecting their responsibilities to the children they produce?

I'm not proposing that draconian measures be instituted in Black America to ensure the family stays in tact, but I do think the penalties for destructive acts that lead to broken families be a bit more harsh than they are.
In most African and Asian nations today, the penalty for cheating on a spouse or abandoning/neglecting your responsibilities as a parent are much much harsher than in the West.

Say what you will about those societies, but Africans are just as "Black" as Black Americans but aren't suffering from nearly the same level of broken families and fatherless children even during times of famine and warfare.  So that should tell you it's not the PEOPLE (Black people) who are the problem but the ENVIRONMENT those people find themselves in that create the problems.




 

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Pioneer, sure slave owners selected the people they thought would work best in the field, may have forced slaves with certain physical characteristics to mate, but I assure you it was not very scientific and given the 150 or so years since slavery has ended any effects would have been washed out.

  • Blacks in American have some European ancestry so a true comparison is hard
  • Strength is much more a function of training than genetics 
  • Health is a more a function of environment and how well you take care of yourself
  • There is no baseline for Black or white health and strength so there there is no way to determine which group is stronger than the other based upon so called "breeding"
  • You can't uses genes to determine who is Black or white
  • There is no one gene for "health" or "strength"
  • humans are not like dogs 
  • humans really are not all very different genetically (which make the Black and white distinction silly and a comparison based upon relative strength of the two artifically defined groups a waste of time)

You and Jimmy the Greek should have paid more attention in science class.  We are all humans

 

 

-----------------------

 

If the government put everyone in jail who committed adultery I doubt there would be anyone left to watch the prisoners.  

 

Stricter laws for moral misbehavior might work in a homogeneous society where everyone's moral values were more or less the same.

 

But live a country where a 20 year old can die fighting in a war, but can't buy a beer in a bar and where it is illegal to pay someone cash to have sex with you, but if you take 'em to dinner and a movie in exchange of sex that is fine.  

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Pioneer, the Nation of Islam seems to be up you alley.  They are able to take Brothers out of prison and turn them around completely.  During their heyday in Harlem they ran businesses, schools, the people looked good, taking care of themselves and doing for self....  They also have clear rules on family, and the roles of men and women.

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Troy

No one is denying that we are all humans...lol.
But we all know that humans vary from one end of the spectrum to the other.
Some men are more masculine than other men, some women are more feminine than other women, and some people are split down the middle to the point you can't really categorize them in either gender.

Now again, it is a known scientific fact (whether you want to acknowledge it or not) that Black men in America have more testosterone than White men.  A fact that I have provided evidence to support; and a fact that you disagree with but haven't provided any evidence to the contrary.

Sure a person can get stronger by exercise, but I doubt all the training in the world will turn a popular ball of hair, eye liner,  and grease (otherwise known as Justin Beiber) into a Mike Tyson. The genetics just aren't there!

Selective breeding and using genetics to achieve a better result is nothing new, the Greeks were practicing it thousands of years ago by saving only the healthiest babies and throwing those with deformities into pits to die.
You don't have to know HOW something works to realize that it works.
Slavers may have been as illiterate as they were immoral but they still knew what they were doing when they would take a big strong slave from one plantation to the next to have sex with slave women and produce strong children.   


I think we should also examine why you and many other Black men feel the need to downplay the well known and often celebrated sexuality/masculinity of the American Black male.

Is it natural for a man to deny the virility of his particular group?
Or have Black men been "tricked" into denying thier own power through feminism and the subconscious fear of what White men may think of them and even do to them by examples in history?




---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

 


If the government put everyone in jail who committed adultery I doubt there would be anyone left to watch the prisoners.
Stricter laws for moral misbehavior might work in a homogeneous society where everyone's moral values were more or less the same.

But live a country where a 20 year old can die fighting in a war, but can't buy a beer in a bar and where it is illegal to pay someone cash to have sex with you, but if you take 'em to dinner and a movie in exchange of sex that is fine.

 


I'm not suggesting that adulters be imprisoned for cheating.  Jail time wouldn't be a very good punishment anyway because if the offender is the main financial supporter of the family and they are imprisoned then that means the family's means of support would come to an abrupt end.

But given the importance of a stable family and especially with regard to children....I do think there should be some sort of legal punishment for those who break their social/civil contracts with their spouses.

Justice has a way of establishing itself.
Despite the fact that there are no enforced laws against cheating on your spouse in the United States, do you know how many murders and other acts of violence occur as a result of infidelity?
Probably a quarter of all murders in America take place from people who suspected their partners were unfaithful to them.

If you want a secular society where people are told there is no "divine retribution" for what they do, then the law should step in to enforce certain moral standards to maintain peace.
 

While I believe in a society where people should have the relative freedom to do and believe in what they wish as long as it doesn't encroach on the rights of others; I DO believe their should be some universal agreement on certain principles, ethics, and morals in society.

 

 

 

 

 


Pioneer, the Nation of Islam seems to be up you alley. They are able to take Brothers out of prison and turn them around completely. During their heyday in Harlem they ran businesses, schools, the people looked good, taking care of themselves and doing for self.... They also have clear rules on family, and the roles of men and women.

 


The Nation of Islam is a good example of moral clarity and discipline for the Black community.
I've studied the teachings of the Nation of Islam extensively, both the original Nation of Islam under Elijah Muhammad and the current one under Minister Farrakhan.
I even attend lectures at Mosque #1 in Detroit and other cities I lived in every now and then.
I think they should have a more prominent role in reforming the Black community as well as other religious and non-religious groups.

However I personally can't agree with all White people being "devils"....lol...or the belief that there is no life after physical death, both of which seem to among their central beliefs.



I don't have to tell you this, but we must be careful when trying to introduce rules from a religious ideaological source because a lot of people will be offended and turned off because of the source regardless as to how beneficial a particular idea may be.

For example, when you go into a meeting by the Nation of Islam, the men and women are separated so that the men can concentrate on the speaker instead of focusing on the woman sitting next to him.
This is an excellent idea that I think works in schools when it comes to teaching young boys, but if people knew it came from "them mooslums" some may reject it.






 

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Pioneer you say I did not give you any evidence but you failed to acknowledge all the evidence I provided (bullet point list). You say that Justin Beiber could not get MIke Tyson physique, but you don;t know that?  Justin Beiber does not train like Mike Tyson, few people do...

 

Pioneer, just keep believing that Blacks are stronger than white due to  3 or 4 hundred years (not very many generations) of "selective" breeding.  You probably also believe that Black people are dumber that white people for the same reason...

 

-------------

 

Sure there are things the general population can learn from the Nation.

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The list you provided was not evidence to support your assertion that the testosterone level between Black Americans and White Americans are the same.   It was a list of opinions and "feel good" general facts that no one disputes.

Ofcourse humans aren't dogs.

Ofcourse strength is improved with training.,

No one denies any of these facts, but all the training in the world won't turn Justin into Mike, his bones and chemistry are just different.

Justin Beiber is nearly 20 years old and still looks like a teenage girl, you KNOW that boy couldn't get a body like Tyson from just working out, lol

He'd have to take a lot of steroid and growth hormones to even come close.....lol.

I believe too many Black men in America have been tricked into being ashamed of thier masculinity.

It starts in the classroom where teachers make young Black boys feel uncomfortable when their voices start changing during puberty and it makes them want to drop out of school and drop out of society.

While on one end of the spectrum you have those who are trying to make Black men deny thier masculinity, on the other end of the same spectrum you have forces working to encourage homosexuality and femininity among Black males.

White men make fun of homosexuality on television and in the movies all day long, let a Black actor or athlete do it and all types of pressure comes on him to apologize. This sends a message to other Black males that they better not speak their mind or there might be consequences, just take the money and go along with "the program".

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Many Black Muslims are strict on not just Black conciousness but on the importance of MORALITY and the role it plays in your success in life.

I didn't understand it's importance when I was younger but as I got older and saw what was going on in my city and the nation in general the more I see that immorality and unethical behavior seem to be the biggest enemies of Black people.....not racism coming from Whites.

I know from not just observation but experience that if you try to live a righteous and moral life, you tend to be successful and nothing negative (racism, crime, poverty, ect....) seems to affect you like it will those who have no moral foundation.

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Pioneer my statements are facts I did not make them up.  They do not make me feel good, any more that water boils at 212 degrees at normal pressure.

 

While I did not cite sources for the factual statements, I'll leave that up to you.  Better yet if you can cite a source to dispute what I've written I'll be more than willing to look at it.

 

At the end of the day you understanding of genetics and how they impact humans is very different than my understanding and the currently accepted science as a result we can't really have a meaningful conversation.

 

So for the sake of clarity; 

  1. Do you believe that Black people are dumber that white people due to selective breeding?
  2. Do you believe Blacks are stronger than whites due to "selective" breeding during our prior of enslavement prior to 1865?

If the answer are still "yes" I walk you through each question (really the same question phrased with a different example) methodically.

 

 

------------------------

 

I agree with you about the role "morality" plays in not just the Black culture but our society in general. 

 

I'm not suggesting that people are more or less moral that in previous generations.  But the acceptability for immorally behavior seems to be at an all time high.  Drop out of high school, have a baby before marriage, wear you panty below you butt, -- no problem!

 

 

---------------------------

 

I also agree with you regarding the feminizing of males in our culture, but for different reasons. Corporations have a financial incentive to get men to buy shoes in all the colors of the spectrum, to buys all types of unnecessarily expensive lotions and scents,  It seems the term "metro-sexual" was coined to give men a name (other than "fag") who behaved like women when it came to fashion.  Today arched eyebrows, long braided hair styles, two earrings, shaved body hair, etc are as no longer seen as feminine -- but the sign of a well groomed "man".

 

I guess since there are few ways a Black man can express masculinity, without ending up in jail, we are exploring our feminine side :rolleyes:

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Pioneer my statements are facts I did not make them up. They do not make me feel good, any more that water boils at 212 degrees at normal pressure.

While I did not cite sources for the factual statements, I'll leave that up to you. Better yet if you can cite a source to dispute what I've written I'll be more than willing to look at it.

At the end of the day you understanding of genetics and how they impact humans is very different than my understanding and the currently accepted science as a result we can't really have a meaningful conversation.

So for the sake of clarity;

1. Do you believe that Black people are dumber that white people due to selective breeding?

2. Do you believe Blacks are stronger than whites due to "selective" breeding during our prior of enslavement prior to 1865?

If the answer are still "yes" I walk you through each question (really the same question phrased with a different example) methodically.

 

Yes the list you provided were facts but:

a) They are "irrelevant" facts that had little to do with the argument any more than reminding me that water boils at 212 degrees

b )They were facts that no one disputed in the first place.

Nothing in that list you provided disproved my position nor supported yours.

But to answer your questions:

1. Do you believe that Black people are dumber that white people due to selective breeding?

No.

2. Do you believe Blacks are stronger than whites due to "selective" breeding during our prior of enslavement prior to 1865?

I believe Black Americans IN GENERAL are naturally stronger when all other environmental factors (access to decent food, healthcare, ect...) are the same. Ofcourse there are many Whites who are stronger genetically than many Black Americans, but I don't believe this is the normal or average.

But I take issue with you asking are my answers "still yes".

That seems to imply that they were "yes" all along and I DID NOT say that Blacks were dumber than Whites due to selective breeding.

We were talking about masculine/sexual differences, not mental differences.

------------------------

 

 

 

I agree with you about the role "morality" plays in not just the Black culture but our society in general.

I'm not suggesting that people are more or less moral that in previous generations. But the acceptability for immorally behavior seems to be at an all time high. Drop out of high school, have a baby before marriage, wear you panty below you butt, -- no problem!

 

Along with the media trying to make young people think that immorality and dysfunctional families are somehow "normal".....I believe most of this behavior comes from not having fathers in the home to properly enforce rules.

Although most mothers and fathers tend to think similarly about what's best for thier children (i.e. safety and a good education);  they tend to ENFORCE those rules differently.

Most mothers will tolerate thier children (especially thier sons) dressing inappropriately, hanging with the wrong friends, dropping out ot school, or living at home well past the age of 25 while not working.

Oh sure, they'll nag and argue with their sons over it, but in the end MOST (not all) love thier sons so much that they would tolerate it in the home rather than see him out on the street.

Most fathers won't.

Most fathers tend to demand more from thier sons and will often become violent if disobeyed over certain things and eventually kick them out of the house. As much as fathers love thier sons, many will actually kill them if the disrespect goes too far. A few years ago in Detroit there was an incident where a Black father found out his son was molesting his own sister and took him out to a vacant lot and shot him. I doubt any mother would have done that.

When there are 2 or more grown men under one roof whether they're related or not there is often a power struggle as one doesn't like the other telling him what to do. This is one of the reasons poly-andry (having more than one husand) usually doesn't work.

Plus most sons tend to want to make thier fathers proud of them and this alone encourages high achievement.

Having a decent father (not just some man screwing the mother) in the home tends to solve many of the problems that currently exist in the Black community.

 

 

---------------------------

 

 

 

I also agree with you regarding the feminizing of males in our culture, but for different reasons. Corporations have a financial incentive to get men to buy shoes in all the colors of the spectrum, to buys all types of unnecessarily expensive lotions and scents, It seems the term "metro-sexual" was coined to give men a name (other than "fag") who behaved like women when it came to fashion. Today arched eyebrows, long braided hair styles, two earrings, shaved body hair, etc are as no longer seen as feminine -- but the sign of a well groomed "man".

I guess since there are few ways a Black man can express masculinity, without ending up in jail, we are exploring our feminine side

 

This is true.

This society doesn't have many outlets for young men to establish thier manhood and the typical "heirarchy" that is so important in order for young men to know where they stand in the world.

When it comes to men acting more feminine today I have a "dual" take on this issue:

1. First of all I may as well make it clear and it will probably come as no surprise given my other views that I see see homosexuality as an abnormality and sexual perversion.  However I don't believe in hurting or harassing people simply because they are gay. However having said that.........

There is a difference between homosexuality  and the behavior of a lot of Black and AfroLatino males who tend to were a lot of cologne, loud colors, jewelry, and braided hair with earring.

Actually, I see this as something called "ATAVISM" which is a sort of racial memory embedded in a person.

Like I said in other posts that people of African decent whether they are AfroAmerican, Latino, Arab, or even some Italians seem to have certain traits in common like liking bass in the music, loud bright colors, ect......that is almost genetically imbedded.

Since America was founded by Northern Europeans, much of the traditional  American culture reflects that dull colored cold conservatism found in Germany and England where people didn't dress too colorfully or believe in a lot of flash and flamboyancy. So when Blacks, Latinos, and others are finally free to express their "true" nature (ATAVISM), often times it clashes with the traditional one and may be seen as not very masculine.

2. One of the reason so many men aren't dressing or acting as  masculine as they did in the past is because there is no need for them to.,

a) Most men live in urban environments where they don't have to know how to hunt or fight to protect their women and children from wild animals and provide for the family like times in the past.

b )Because almost every part of this nation has a police department you can call if you are in trouble there is no demand that boys be taught how to fight off other males who may try to take their property or their women.

c) The job situation today is different.

When you have a job in an office working around women where the environment is more "delicate" then you tend to dress in softer clothes and speak in a softer and less vulgar manor. 

There aren't as many jobs that require hard manual labor today as there were in the past.

 

One of the things I push for is more manufacturing jobs and skilled trade jobs like plumbing, carpentry, and electricians where a person without a college degree can earn a decent living. Everyone can't or won't go to college and even fewer will get jobs that require college degrees, so we must find a way where millions of men and women who don't have a college education can make a DECENT living for themselves.

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The strongest person I ever met was a white guy.  Actually I think the strongest man who ever lived was white.  Most of if not all of the weight lifting records are held by white men.  And these white guys were not "breed" to be strong.  So I guess White people are just stronger Black men would I be right?

 

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A caring father in the home would be a BIG plus for most families.  I think if the majority of families could remain intact a whole bunch of problems would disappear....

 

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Skilled trades require education too.  Don't make the assumption that "anyone" can pick these skills up without being educated.  high schools have to prepare people for these roles too.  It is not clear that they are even doing this much ... 

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