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Delano

Divination only makes sense to people who believe in Magic.

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What is your definition of magic, Delano? Pulling a rabbit out of a hat - or something else....

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That is actually a good question.  Because I generally tend to think of magic as pulling a rabbit out of a hat, sleight of hand and other tricks used to fool people.

 

If one can indeed predict the future then it is no more magical that than describing the past.

 

However we know virtually all people claiming the ability to divine the future are charlatans using magic and tricks to fool others (perhaps themselves even) into believing they have an ability that they do not possess.

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Greetings, Everyone. Hiya, Troy! Hi, Cynique. Hi and I concur, Delano.

 

When we think about it though, Is "magic" not at the center of what is considered to be every "major" religion?  It clearly is in Christianity. Events such as turning water into wine and walking on water are perfectly believable, but it has to be from a page out of a HOLY book, not a MAGIC book.

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Hey Waterstar missed you. :) 

 

 

I doubt there has ever been a magician to grace this planet that can part the Red Sea and perform countless other tasks in the Holy book you described. 

Indeed it would be sacrilegious to call these acts "tricks" or even "magic".  They are called miracles and ones belief in them is based upon faith 'cause they certainly can't be proved in a scientific way  So either you believe them or you don't.  But that is a whole 'nother conversation.

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Missed you, too~

 

True, it's sacreligious to call those acts "magic" in the very same way that human sacrifice is paganistic,bestial, and wicked....UNLESS, of course, it is at the very center of one's salvation.

 I, of course, digresss. :-)

 

Perhaps such discussions exist because the definition or at least the perception of magic has changed over time. Things that are normal to some are called "paranormal" . Things that strike some as abnormal are "norms". 

 

I personally don't find it odd for a stranger to be able to describe one's personality so well by simply observing the stars, planets, and such. Nor do I find it odd for a stranger to have guides tell him or her details down to what the person that is being read was wearing when he or she did a certain thing. These things are natural to me. Will I go back and forth with anyone about why or why these things are not possible? Nah, not really my battle. However, I must admit that it is kind of interesting that some who go back and forth in some things with strong doubt interpret events in their sacred books literally. Don't mention anything about allegory... You done got da DEBIL in ya and the spirit of  "unbelief" needs to be cast out of ya!

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Cynique - I don't mean sleight of hand.

Troy I agree with you. The following us my definition/equation.

Magic = Divine = Yoga = Miracle.

They are only cultural differences. To say that one id superior or more valid is like saying one language is better than another.

Every philosophical, emotional, intuitive and mental structure is a belief system.

Any symbolic language us a mirror of the time and the culture

Language and numbers are symbols that are dependent in the user.

Believers very crucial term. Cultural and ideology wars

get played out by way if economics.

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That is actually a good question. Because I generally tend to think of magic as pulling a rabbit out of a hat, sleight of hand and other tricks used to fool people.

If one can indeed predict the future then it is no more magical that than describing the past.

However we know virtually all people claiming the ability to divine the future are charlatans using magic and tricks to fool others (perhaps themselves even) into believing they have an ability that they do not possess.

Do you really believe that?

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Waterstar - welcome. What stared me on this is there is a division amongst astrologers. You have those who are using astrology in psychological counselling and those who are predicted the futurespell making. The counselors want to turn into a respectable income generating profession. While the other camp who are magicians, embrace the magical side.

There are two branches of astrology Hoary and Electional. Hoary involves answering a question based in when the client sits down. Electional is determining the best time to commence. Both of these are a form of magic. I currently do a form of hoary. Except I us a future chart unconsciously chosen by the querent. It generally is fairly accurate. Which makes me ask the following question. Does that mean that the querent knows how to pick the chart that answers there question. This raises so issues. First the person doesn't consciously now astrology. Yet the know where to go into the cosmic filing cabinet to pull out the answer. The can pull the file because they put it in there before the were born.

Any act of divination is communing with the divine. However disbelief creates resistance.

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Does any of this have to do with what is referred to as "black" magic and "white" magic and calling on meta physical powers to conjure up things?  

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I think the title of this thread mixes apples with oranges.

It starts off focusing on one's understanding of divination and then focuses on one's beliefs in magic and in my opinion divination and magic are different.
Divination is often confused with magic when....although they may interwine at times...are 2 difference subjects.


Cynique brings up a good point that we must first ascertain a proper definition of Divination before deciding whether or not it makes sense.

The dictionary defines divination as seeking knowledge by supernatural means.

However "magic" has 2 definitions......
-Controling nature by SUPER-natural means
-A form of entertainment based on illusions.


Divination makes sense to me in the sense that I acknowledge it's existence even if I'm not sure how it operates.

I believe in magic too.
Both definitions.
But I also believe there are a lot of frauds out there.

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Pioneer - I have found that people disbelieve in astrology because they have not studied it. I would say that it is hard to understand something if you initially do not believe in it.

The Merriam Webster definition: The art or practice of using omens or magical powers to foretell the future; unusual insight or intuitive perception.

Astrology by definition and my experience is magic.

Witches, wizards, pagans use magic in spell casting. Search planetary hours or spell casting even candle magic at its base uses astrology.

I have specified that I am not discussing stage tricks.

Any field will have incompetent people.

You can utilize most things if you have faith that they work or believe someone's opinion who is more knowledgeable.

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There's a study of psychic powers where they have a flashing light connected to an atoms movement. So that it randomly moves One of the subjects was able to predict the direction. The researchers were not certain whether the subject was predicting the future or influencing the future.

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Del to answer you question yes I believe what I wrote.

 

"Understanding" a thing and "believing" in a thing are mutually exclusive.  Plenty of people have a tremendous understanding of a subject without believing it to be true.  Some of the most profound atheists understand the Bible better than most Christians.   Indeed it is perhaps the deeper understanding that explains their atheism.

 

But to your point, I used to dismiss astrology as utter nonsense.  My opinion was based upon the garbage you read in the newspapers.  I took a course in astrology I have cast charts for folks going back before we even met Del -- without the use of a computer program.  Ultimately I did cast charts with a program.  The last program was written by a guy named Halloran called Astro97.  I was never great an interpreting them. After taking the course I realized there was much more to astrology than the sun signs described in the paper -- indeed knowledge one's sun sign can be very misleading in understanding both a person's outward and inward characteristics.

 

In other words I would not dismiss Astrology so quickly, but y the same token I don't give it that much weight either particularly when it comes to predicting the future (which is what I thought we were talking about in the context of divination"). 

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Troy - I am not certain why you would say belief and understanding it mutually exclusive.

I used the Halliean program. Interpretation is the hard bit. Forecasting us even harder. If you could predict the future would you say it us impossible. Your experience or ability may not be the extent of the world.

Forecasting is more difficult because there are lots if future charts to choose. In addition there are different techniques.

One approach is using transits. You look at the aspects of where the planets are currently and compare it to the radix chart. The problem id that there are many transits that don't get activated. And it isn't easy to determine actual from potential.

I am spending a bit more time forecasting. In a year or two I'll let you know how it went.

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Del do you understand given my example of the athetist who understand the bible but does not believe it?  That is to say understanding something is completely separate from believing it.  I made the statement in contrast to the statement you made to Pioneer, "I would say that it is hard to understand something if you initially do not believe in it.".  The implication being that you have to believe something to understand it, which I disagree with.

 

I don't believe in predicting the future because I don't believe it is immutable.  Perhaps there are many futures unique to each of us, perhaps even controlled by us?  Maybe in my existence no one can predict the future -- at least not mine ;-)

 

Del why do you want to know the future anyway? 

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Can you make a chart for the United States using July 4, 1776, as its birthday, making it a cancer?  I think this has already been done.  What does the future hold for "America, the promised land?" 

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Interesting question, since the hour is in dispute.I have a book country horoscopes, it had a fee pages and different charts. I'll take a look at it after work. I'll also post a link by a mundane astrologer and his commentary.

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Yes I can post a chart, but mundane isn't my branch. I have been looking for analysis but haven't seen any thing interesting.

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I read one analysis that wad interesting. It basically said that America was going through a rebirth. And that it was at the crossroads

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