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Should the U.S. provide reparations for slavery and Jim Crow?


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Should the U.S. provide reparations for slavery and Jim Crow?

Carlton Mark Waterhouse, Indiana University

Editor’s note: This article is part of our collaboration with Point Taken, a new program from WGBH that will next air on Tuesday, May 10 on PBS and online at pbs.org. The show features fact-based debate on major issues of the day, without the shouting.

The debate over reparations in the United States began even before slavery ended in 1865.

It continues today. The overwhelming majority of academics studying the issue have supported the calls for compensating black Americans for the centuries of chattel slavery and the 100 years of lynching, mob violence and open exclusion from public and private benefits like housing, health care, voting, political office and education that occurred during the Jim Crow era.

Despite this academic support, the nation is arguably no closer to consensus on this issue than it was 150 years ago. Not surprisingly, my research has shown that the idea remains widely unpopular with white Americans and overwhelmingly supported by African-Americans.

The example of a Founding Father

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‘Should the U.S. pay reparations to Black Americans’ is the question Point Taken debates May 10 at 11 PM E/10 PM C on PBS

The debate over reparations began not long after the country was founded.

In 1790, Benjamin Franklin committed to instruct, employ and educate the children of those he had set free from bondage. Franklin saw this as a way to “promote the public good, and the happiness of these our hitherto too much neglected fellow-creatures.”

After slavery ended, Senator Thaddeus Stevens of Pennsylvania proposed the reparations bill in 1867. It provided 40 acres of land to each adult male and to each female who was the head of a family. In addition, it called for funding to construct a homestead on the land. Stevens saw reparations as necessary to avoid racial hatred, inequality and strife.

Callie House, who was born enslaved, took up the charge in the 1890s under the auspices of the National Ex-Slave Mutual Relief, Bounty and Pension Association. She was arrested and ultimately imprisoned for her efforts in 1917. She was accused of raising money to support a cause that the government argued was so implausible as to constitute fraud. The organization had built a membership in the tens of thousands from 1897 to 1898, and continued to grow thereafter.

Scholars pick up the cause

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Slave market in Atlanta, Georgia in 1864.

The case for reparations for African-Americans was taken up in academic and popular circles more than 40 years ago.

Yale Law Professor Boris Bitkker gave the first significant academic treatment of the issue in his book “The Case for Black Reparations” in 1972. The book followed the public demand for US$500 million in reparations from white churches and synagogues by civil rights leader James Foreman.

The issue remained on the political agenda of some black nationalist organizations like the the Nation of Islam and later the National Coalition of Blacks for Reparations. It was also part of the research agenda of scholars such as Bernard Boxxil and Howard McGary. Boxill and McGary provided a basis in moral philosophy for black reparations that future scholars expanded into other disciplines.

In 2001, well-known anti-apartheid activist Randall Robinson published his book “The Debt: What America Owes to Blacks.” After its publication and popular success, a new group of academics began to give significant attention to the issue.

A popular movement also arose that sparked lawsuits relating to slavery and state-supported racial violence in Tulsa, Oklahoma. All of the suits were dismissed by the courts, causing many to conclude that legislative action was the only possibility for redress.

The legislative approach had succeeded previously in one instance. Years earlier, the Florida legislature enacted legislation that made Florida the first and only state to provide reparations for state-supported mob violence against African-Americans during the 1923 Rosewood massacre.

A number of cities and universities began investigating their historic relationship to slavery. Several states issued apologies for slavery. The United States House of Representatives followed suit in 2008. The Senate joined in the following year. The 2014 article by Ta Ne-hisi Coates in The Atlantic represents a recent resurfacing of the issue.

My current research explores the commonality between the views held by the majority of American whites on this issue and the views of dominant ethnic and racial groups who oppose redress for injustices and harms inflicted in other countries.

Social hierarchy and reparations globally

Following World War II and the extermination of Roma peoples alongside Jews in death and concentration camps, the Federal Republic of Germany refused redress to the Roma at the same time it provided extensive reparations to Jewish victims.

Australia’s rejection of reparations in response to the theft of over 100,000 indigenous children over the course of 60 years under federal and state laws provides another example. Japan’s refusal to provide redress to the Korean woman forced into sexual slavery during World War II is one more.

In each case, the rejection of redress corresponds to the low social status of the victims. This reflects a phenomenon social psychologists identify as “social dominance.” It describes a state in which certain groups have a disproportionate share of a society’s “negative social value” such as incarceration, poverty and substandard housing. Others in the same society have a disproportionate share of “positive social value” including education, political power, wealth and quality housing.

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A ledger recording the sale of slaves in Charleston, South Carolina. Yale University

Groups enjoying the benefits of social dominance often reject claims by subordinate groups, even when they are rooted in horrible and well-established historic injustices.

The reasons for rejecting these claims vary, but they ultimately flow from the perceived flawed character of the group members. Following World War II, German Chancellor Konrad Adenauer identified the Roma as a “race of criminals” who in no way deserved reparations. In Australia, former Prime Minister John Howard rejected reparations based on the idea that “contemporary Australians should not be held responsible for mistakes of the past.” An interesting position in light of the continuation of the practice into the 1970s.

In Japan, the claim was made that the issue of the “Korean comfort women” was settled at the end of the war by the agreement to end hostilities. It is worth noting that in Germany and Australia, both groups had disproportionately high incarceration and poverty rates and were broadly viewed as having cultural and moral deficits. In Japan, a similar view is illustrated by the recent remarks of a government official that the victims of the years of enslavement were actually Korean prostitutes who “volunteered.”

Uprooting racial subordination in America

In the same way, white Americans' rejection of reparations has little to do with the oft-repeated challenges that “my family did not own slaves” or that “the debt was paid in the blood of the Union and Confederate soldiers.”

African-Americans fall at the bottom of America’s racial and social hierarchy. That reality has routinely and popularly been explained as a result of their inferiority. Initially the claim was rooted in genetics. Today it is based primarily on a theory of cultural deficiency.

Until these ideological bases of racial subordination are acknowledged and rejected, no “case for reparations” will convince the majority of white Americans that reparation are due African-Americans. A clear example of this can be found in the hundreds of comments to my recent New York Times editorial on the issue. The comments reflect the negative views of African-Americans held by many readers as well as an intense emotional rejection of reparations.

My proposal looks at slavery and the Jim Crow era separately. I draw the distinction to prevent the memory of the enslaved from being overshadowed by the more recent injustices of the Jim Crow Era. I believe each group of victims warrants specific attention and an appropriate response.

Compensatory reparations should be limited to the harms of the Jim Crow Era.

For slavery, I suggest that reparations take the form of monuments, museums, memorials and educational programs that are currently lacking in this country. One early step would be the creation of commissions at the state and local level that would identify the enslaved, their owners, and any role they played in the development of the state and its industries. This information would be used along with existing research and funded grants to develop appropriate projects to honor the enslaved and to demarcate the contributions they made.

A comparable examination should be made at the federal level to note persons of national significance. In light of the centuries-long history of slavery that took place here, we have a great deal to learn and illuminate about this aspect of our shared history.

This approach provides the focus needed on the lives of the enslaved, their humanity, and their indispensable contribution to America’s growth and development. At the same time, the proposal attends to the survivors of the governmental abuses inflicted over the course of 100 years following slavery’s end who remain without recognition or redress.

Carlton Mark Waterhouse, Professor of Law and Dean's Fellow , Indiana University

This article was originally published on The Conversation. Read the original article.

The Conversation

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I think reparations are long over due however I think they should come MOSTLY in the forms of:

-Education (REAL education dealing with science and technology) opportunities
-Business opportunities
-Land
-Medical care
-Legal exemptions

This would help us much more than simple monetary allotments.

 

 


If Blacks were offered reparations I think a good question would be WHO actually qualifies for them?

I'm willing to wager that a lot of people who never considered themselves "Black" in any way shape or form will all of a sudden embrace their African ancestry and become "soul brothers and sisters" over night.

You'll liable to see Italians and Arabs wearing Afros and dashikis.


Should African immigrants also receive some of OUR reparations?
They didn't go through slavery, but they did suffer colonization  and certainly slavery and the amount of human labor sucked from their society must have had an impact.

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No one will ever receive a check, or any other form of compensation, from the U.S. Government for compensation for the enslavement of our ancestors.  White people don't even want to pay for educating, housing, or providing medical care for each other.  Anyone who thinks white folks will pay Black folks for something that ended a century and a half ago is out of their mind.

@Pioneer1, do you think President Obama should receive reparations if they were being provided?

 

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Troy


@Pioneer1, do you think President Obama should receive reparations if they were being provided?

Well, he'd benefit by proxy since his wife and daughters are decendants of slaves....lol.

His father may have been Kenyan but President Obama being born in the United States IS an authentic AfroAmerican though not decended from slaves.

I believe because of the injustices the Kenyan and other African people suffered under colonialism, it would be a good argument for African immigants in the United States to receive some form of colonial reparations as well. However I think THAT particular form of reparations should be held SEPARATE from AfroAmerican reparations so as not to cause confusion and fraud.

If not, you'd have a lot of Arabs from Algeria, Egypt, and Morrocco as well as White South Africans trying to make a case for why THEY TOO should also receive reparations as "African Americans"....lol.

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A bill has been passed to pay Native Americans reparations  Allowing Native Americans to run Casinos is a form of reparations, too. Also Japanese American have  begun receiving reparations for their having been imprisoned and their property seized by the U.S. Government during World War I I. The bill to pay black farmers reparations is also on track to be passed. 

Why would America pay Africans who have emigrated to this country reparations, Pioneer???  Countries like Nigeria should pay black Americans reparations for selling them into slavery!  

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Cynique

Why would America pay Africans who have emigrated to this country reparations, Pioneer???

In many states, if a group of people ride together and one of them robs a store at gun point and gets back in the car....ALL of those in the car will be charged with armed robbery.
Why?
Because they feel that ALL of those involved share responsibility to some degree regardless as to the level of their involvement.


Africa suffered:
-brain drain
-depopulation
-loss of productive youth for daily activities
-economic and social destabilization

.....all as a result of the TransAtlantic Slave trade.  


America is just one of the nations involved and has benefited tremendously from the human and natural resources of Africa so she she SHOULD pay the descendants of the victims.



Countries like Nigeria should pay black Americans reparations for selling them into slavery!

1.
Most African nations like Nigeria didn't even EXIST during the TransAtlantic Slave trade.

2. There is very little if any documented PROOF that Africans actually sold fellow Africans into slavery. Most of it is heresay.

So if Africans are to be paid reparations at all, it can't go to the governments in existence today but should go to the actual indivuals descended from the victims.


But again, I think reparations to Africans should be a SEPARATE argument.

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You're entitled to your opinions. Is there any documented proof that Africans didn't sell each other into slavery?  Any version of either claim would all be examples of revisionist history.  

It's unrealistic to advocate that every country that subdues another one should pay the losers reparations.  

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Pioneer all African scholars say that Africans sold other Africans into slavery, I don't think anyone who has studied the subject thinks this is debatable.  

Also, if you think the American people, Black ones included, would approve some form of reparations for Kenyan, or any African, immigrants?!  Negro puhlese!

I do think Carlton's idea mentioned above and in his research paper that;

"...supports the creation of “Jim Crow reparations.” Distinct from the reparations for slavery considered herein, Jim Crow reparations would be based on federal and state governmental discrimination against blacks and their immediate families during the Jim Crow Era."

Now this might be something worth considering, for the people directly impacted are still alive.  But still White folks would fight this tool and nail, for the money will come from everyday working stiffs, not the oligarchy who whose families directly benefited from the enslavement Africans.

 

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Cynique

You're entitled to your opinions. Is there any documented proof that Africans didn't sell each other into slavery? Any version of either claim would all be examples of revisionist history.

Not that I know of.
I don't believe there's any documented proof either FOR or AGAINST allegations that Africans sold eachother to Europeans for enslavement.
Which makes it hard to argue that Africans owe AfroAmericans reparations.

But we DO KNOW who enslaved Africans regardless as to who sold them.
There is plenty of well documented proof on that.
So let's start with what we know.


 




Troy

Pioneer all African scholars say that Africans sold other Africans into slavery, I don't think anyone who has studied the subject thinks this is debatable.

I'm not saying it didn't happen.
I'm asking do we have any PROOF or solid documentation of how many Africans were sold by their fellow brethren.
Without PROOF or solid documentation, what grounds would we have demanding reparations from African nations?

 



Also, if you think the American people, Black ones included, would approve some form of reparations for Kenyan, or any African, immigrants?! Negro puhlese!

I'm sure some would, but most probably would not.
Which is why I believe the argument should be kept separate.


However once both AfroAmericans and Africans are properly educated on the FACTS of history rather than endearing mere myths and legends originating from the same people who colonized and enslaved both.....I'm sure both will come to some mutual agreement concerning reparatory benefits.

 

 

 

Now this might be something worth considering, for the people directly impacted are still alive. But still White folks would fight this tool and nail, for the money will come from everyday working stiffs, not the oligarchy who whose families directly benefited from the enslavement Africans.

History has shown and proven that when Black people show a degree of unity and fight for justice....WE GET IT....regardless of the opposition.
All obstacles tend to fade away like a mirage.

The only thing preventing Black people from getting reparations NEXT YEAR is their disunity and lack of confidence.

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Pioneer1 would a sales receipt work for you?  Seriously,  what would qualify as proof for you? 

You wrote,

"The only thing preventing Black people from getting reparations NEXT YEAR is their disunity and lack of confidence." 

So, are you suggesting people like me are stopping us from getting reparations? I'm down for unity and I have no issues with confidence. So I'm not sure that is it.

Did anyone see the debate? 

 

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Troy

Pioneer1 would a sales receipt work for you? Seriously, what would qualify as proof for you?

To be quite concise...NOTHING.
There is very little history beyond 200 years in the past can actually be PROVEN according to my high standards for actual proof.

However, solid evidence actually WOULD include a bill or document of sale or atleast an authentic document by a prominent slave trader about the exact procedure used to "buy" slaves from other Africans.

Again, I'm not saying Africans didn't sell SOME others for enslavement to Europeans...
My question is how many Africans can we prove were actually sold by other Africans that we feel confident enough to charge the African people for reparations?

 

So, are you suggesting people like me are stopping us from getting reparations? I'm down for unity and I have no issues with confidence. So I'm not sure that is it.

Lol.....
Ok, now all we have to do is find and convince about 9,999,998 other AfroAmericans to feel the same as you and I and we'll go to Washington D.C.

It's as simple as that.

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Well trying to count the number of African sold into slavery is impossible and estimates will vary significantly.  While we know African's sold/traded other African into slavery, few suggest that Africans are responsible for the brutal system.  That responsibility rests with the europeans. 

But that reminds me of more interesting points:  You know there were Black slave holders in the U.S.  You also know many so called white people are actually Black. Indeed some estimate that most white people who have been in the US for more than a few generations have some enslaved African in their Ancestry, should they be paid too?

 

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Troy

 

Well trying to count the number of African sold into slavery is impossible and estimates will vary significantly. While we know African's sold/traded other African into slavery, few suggest that Africans are responsible for the brutal system. That responsibility rests with the europeans.

That was my original point to Cynique in regards to trying to collect reparations from African nations.
It's not that it didn't happen, it's that we can't VERIFY it nor can we verify their level of involvement in order to determine how much responsibility should be placed on them.


 

But that reminds me of more interesting points: You know there were Black slave holders in the U.S. You also know many so called white people are actually Black. Indeed some estimate that most white people you have been in the US for more than a few generations some enslaved African Ancestry, should they be paid too?

Well if you'll recall my views on race......
In MY OPINION a persons race should be determined by their phenotype more so than their ancestry.
We know that both Blacks AND Native Americans owned slaves but their role was miniscule compared to that of Europeans.  And as in the case with Africans who sold other Blacks....trying to prove which Black people alive today actually descended from Black slave owners would be a nightmare.
Infact, it would be probably be even MORE confusing because many AfroAmericans are have both slaves AND slave owners (White and Black) in their ancestry....LOL.

I don't believe reparations should come form individuals, states,  or local municipalities.
I believe it should come DIRECTLY from the United States, Puerto Rican, Brazilians, British, French, and other national governments who had a clear and proven role in the Trans Atlantic Slave trade.


And if there are any corporations STILL around that existed and can be proven to have participated in the Trans Atlantic Slave trade....perhaps they should also be held responsible.

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Any institution still around from the period benefited from the enslavement of human beings, including all of the Ivy League schools that we fight to get into while the HBCU's languish.

Forget it man, Black folks ain't gettin' no damn reparations. The best we can hope for is not to be gunned down by police officers and to get an academy award nomination every now and then...

Move on.  The rest of the country has.  The important fight now is the right to use the bathroom of our declared gender.

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We used to think we'd never get a Black President.

But look at us today, we're HALF way there....lol.


 

It goes right back to UNITY.

If AfroAmericans were as organized and united on a common goal as we ONCE were, or as White women and the Gay/Lesbian coalitions (who are also mostly White) are today.... President Obama would be just as focused on our issues as he is on theirs.

The AfroAmerican community is suffering from a confidence problem that has been in part created by a corporate/conservative media constantly bombarding them with images that destroy their self esteem and tell them they aren't WORTHY of reparitory compensation like other "normal" human beings are.

Often times Black people don't realize how much they are being indoctrinated by the U.S. media until they travel OUTSIDE of the United States and just spend an hour or two watching television in other nations.

Even the LIGHTING and camera angles of most U.S. media outlets seem to do Black people injustice giving most of our people a dull dusky appearance.

 

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@Pioneer1, I don't think it is lack of organization; we have many massive organizations.  The greek letter organizations, for example, have 100's of thousands of members. The Black church has even more members.  There is still an NAACP, an Urban League, etc, etc.  

The issue does not seem to be a dearth of organizations, but rather what the organizations we do have are about.  That question I can not answer because I'm not a member of any organization. For sure, some would say that is the problem, but I would disagree...obviously.

Agreed, indoctrinated Black people can not know much they are being indoctrinated--that is the definition of indoctrination...

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I've learned that UNITY is more than simply being in an organization and going through the motions or rituals just to secure your position.
You're right, we have tons of organizations in the Black community and there are a lot of Black Frats and Sororities. And let us not forget about the BIGGEST Black organization....the Black Church.

But there is a difference between being ORGANIZED and being UNITED.

Organizations revolve around amassing a group of INDIVIDUALS (with their own goals and plans) together, where as unity involves all members of said group putting some or most of their individuality to the side and focusing ALL of their minds on a common goal or goals.

The military is an organization and once you enlist you are a part of it, but you aren't considered part of a UNIT until you have gone through a basic training that drills in the "espirit de corps" that replaces your individual mind with the mind of the COLLECTIVE.


Me and 74 other men and women could have all been going to the Greater Mt. Zion Missionary Bapitst Church for years and not be united.
It's just 75 individuals with their own individual goals and plans ORGANIZED together every Sunday morning to go through the motions of singing and praying and a little charity giving.

But if Rev. Chicken Wing ever gets a notion to buy up the raggedy building across the street and open up a soul-food restaurant, the first thing he'll have to do is produce a plan that will UNITE us on the common goal of obtaining the building.
Us coming together to spend our time and money to raise more money and enventually buy the building and clean it out for business is a show of UNITY based on a common goal.

Another illustration to further my point is the U.S. Congress.
Heavily organized and bureaucratic, but definately NOT united.

Like you said, it's not about simply having an organization....but what the organization is all about.

 

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"No one will ever receive a check, or any other form of compensation, from the U.S. Government   for compensation for the enslavement of our ancestors.  White people don't even want to pay for educating, housing, or providing medical care for each other.  Anyone who thinks white folks will pay Black folks for something that ended a century and a half ago is out of their mind"

Your point is accurate and realistic. I've never understood this silly pipe dream that will never happen. To debate or argue the subject is intellectually embarrassing and pointless. E'nuff said.....

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Early on in the Civil Rights Movement there were scoffers who declared that White people would NEVER give Black people the right to vote, or go to the same schools as their children, or live in their neighborhoods.
NEVER...NEVER...NEVER.

And to talk of having a Black (half Black?) President in THOSE days qualified you to be chased down these guys:

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But look at what we've accomplished in the past 50 years!

 

The only limits we have are the limits we place on ourselves.


I saw on the news a couple days ago where IRAN is demanding that the U.S. pay them reparatiosn for the years they had an embargo on their nation.

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Nice try but the analogy will not work. It's like comparing apples and refrigerators. There is no logical nor intelligent argument for reparations -only an emotional one rooted in bombast, politics for racial grievance and fantasy. I understand this is an affront to your race pride and a sincere belief of the absurd. I got that. But trust me my friend -it's simply not going to happen!

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Xeon

Nice try but the analogy will not work. It's like comparing apples and refrigerators. There is no logical nor intelligent argument for reparations -only an emotional one rooted in bombast, politics for racial grievance and fantasy. I understand this is an affront to your race pride and a sincere belief of the absurd. I got that. But trust me my friend -it's simply not going to happen!

Well if you won't listen to me, listen to Dr Martin Luther 'da King's arguement as to why we need reparations:

 



This man was a highly educated borderline genius and world renowned social reformer.

Are you telling me YOUR argument against the idea of us getting reparations is more powerful than HIS argument for it?

Are you telling me that when Dr King made his case for demanding from Washington what America owes us he was doing nothing more than entertaining an absurd fantasy?

 

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“Are you telling me that when Dr King made his case for demanding from Washington what America owes us he was doing nothing more than entertaining an absurd fantasy?

Well, let me start out by saying this –Mr. King was a great man who did wonderful things in his life. He transformed America. But it must also be said that contrary to the chagrin and angst of his loyalists, he was not a man without flaws and shortcomings. But his overall contribution and significance to this nation cannot be understated. During his lifetime, he witnessed the denial of basic constitutional rights, brutal treatment, segregation and extreme violence inflicted upon black Americans. He dedicated his life to changing the aforementioned. With that said, I believe his reasoning for programs assisting black people was based on the horrid conditions black people were laboring under at that time. This was more than forty years ago. A generation ago!

If you think for one second, the United States congress is going to authorize the funding of a designer Marshall Plan for Negroes only and no one else –you really need to seek medical help. Your brain is not functioning properly! With the deep partisan gridlock and an intransigent House controlling all originating committee bills introduced to congress for debate –please tell me how this is going to happen? Please tell me how many house members are going to commit instant political suicide by supporting such a recreant measure? And after that, tell me how the rest of the nation would react to such an exceptionally divisive attempt? I would love to hear your explanations! And I didn’t even address the absurdity and fallacy of reparations! OMG!

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Xeon


It seems that your argument SHIFTS from time to time.

In one post you argue on how ridiculous it is that Blacks deserve reparations.

In another post you argue on how ridiculous it is for Blacks to EXPECT reparations.


So which position are you arguing from:
Whether or not we DESERVE them, or whether or not we should EXPECT them?


 

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I don't think anyone is arguing that Black folks have and continue to suffer from the legacy of slavery and Jim Crow laws in the U.S..  However, the question of who deserves what, and how much, is simply unanswerable 150 years after the end of slavery and 50 years after the end of Jim Crow. 

But even when a question is unanswerable, that does not mean if should not be asked, becuase reasonable estimates can be made.  The number of stars in are universe is unanswerable, but we can come up with reasonable estimate.  My point however is even if we could answer the question what can we possibly dowith the information?

Lets, for argument sake, say the we've determined that every descendant of an enslaved African in the US is entitled to damages of 50 million dollars, based upon generations of wealth lost as the result of generations of enslavement and lost opportunities because of Jim Crow.  

Of course some would argue that sum to too small given the damages, but I'm just throwing a reasonable number out there.  The are roughly 45 million Black folks in the US. of course one could argue not all of these folks, like Barack Obama, deserve compensation for a wide variety of reasons.

But for the sake of simplicity we are going to consider any of this.  We would just give 45,000,000 people $50,000,000 for a total spend of 2.25 Quadrillion dollars.  This sum easily exceeds the wealth of the entire planet.  Even if we scaled the number back 3 orders of magnitude, and give everyone $50K it would equal the entire federal budget--and ultimately not change a thing in anyone's life. Given the country is about 18 Trillion in debt, I don't know where even $50K a person would come from.

Maybe it would be best for you @Pioneer1, to describe what reparations would look like.  Does every so called "Black" person get a check?  If so how big would it be?  Are all so called Black people compensated equally?  Will there be a "brown bag test" of sorts to determine relative level of compensation?

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Troy

Maybe it would be best for you @Pioneer1, to describe what reparations would look like. Does every so called "Black" person get a check? If so how big would it be? Are all so called Black people compensated equally? Will there be a "brown bag test" of sorts to determine relative level of compensation?

I mentioned in the first post of this thread that monetary allotments wouldn't be the best form of reparations for us at this time.  Infact, in many cases it would probably be COUNTER-productive and do more harm than good.

Not only would giving 40 million people $50 million ignite skyrocketing inflation in the U.S. economy almost overnight; but since most of the businesses Black people spend their money in are NOT Black owned that means you'll just be empowering and enriching those who are already exploiting the Black community....not us.


As I said before, reparations to AfroAmericans should come MOSTLY in the form of:


-Education (REAL education dealing with science, agriculture, and technology)
-Business opportunities
-Land both in America and abroad
-Medical care and knowledge
-Legal and political exemptions


This would be of much more benefit than just giving us money order or gift-card to Target.
These are investments in HUMAN POTENTIAL that would teach us to build OUR OWN wealth far beyond what can presently be imagined.


 

As far as determining who deserves what.....
There are a dozen websites out there where a person can trace their ancestry back to determine whether or not they descended (in whole or in part) from slavery.

If it be shown that any American had direct ancestors who were slaves, they could receive reparations regardless of how they looked or the number of relatives enslaved.

Infact, perhaps this would be the BEST way to argue in favor of reparations anyway.
There are many Whites and Native Americans who have Black slave ancestry who would certainly be in harmony with us to demand reparations if the argument weren't framed as racially based one but rather based on who actuallly descended from American slaves regardless of phenotype.

Infact, I wouldn't mind letting a couple hundred thousand White people get in on the deal if it means me and most my people are the ultimate beneficiaries.

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Pioneer, to be clear, it is not possible to give out as much money as I described in my initial examine.  But I now understand giving away money is not what you propose.

We should be getting business opportunities, medical care, and education anyway.  This is not reparations this is just a consequence of being an American

What land do you propose that America giveaway, Detroit?  You obviously can't displace people from prime real estate to accommodate descendants of Black slaves.  You might recall this was done before (Liberia).  Humm now that I think about it should be include descendant of white slaves too? 

I can get with you in the exceptions route.  Maybe making descendants of enslaved African's exempt from Federal income tax. But again this will never happen especially given your idea of including anyone who is directly descendant from an enslaved African.  I would be willing to bet that would a majority of Americans, if you exclude recent immigrants would fall into this category.  

Also you wrote:

"There are a dozen websites out there where a person can trace their ancestry back to determine whether or not they descended (in whole or in part) from slavery."

I did not know that data was available, would you mind posting a link to one of them, I'd like to check it out.

 

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Actually, I envision the government giving out plots of land for us to make use of it how we see fit.
Kind of like the early Homesteaders.

But even that would be nearly useless without the necessary education/knowledge of how to cultivate that land and extract the minerals from it.

 

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Troy

If I were a betting man I'd be willing to wage there are thousands of homeless Black families in New York alone who would settle for a half-acre of land somewhere down in South Carolina or Virginia than to continue living on the streets of the Big Apple where they face constant harassment from the police, rats, criminals who prey on homeless, ect....


Sara

Again with the telling OTHER people what they can and can't do with their money. If any governmental agency said ANY of the above were reparations for 300 years of forced servitude, I'd be just the Japanese internee and slam the door in their arrogant faces.

But check out what it's called: REPARATIONS.

Not PLACATIONS
Or ACCOMODATIONS

It's calld REPARATIONS because it is supposed to REPAIR the damage that has been done to our people from slavery.
It takes more than just money to do that.

Unlike the Japanese interns who were still around to collect, the slaves are long gone....but the damage done by slavery is still here.
Some things can't be fixed by money alone, you also need knowledge,  legal protection, land,  and other tools the help repair the damage centuries of servitude has caused and this will build you all the money and wealth you desire.

In this case it wouldn't be the government telling recipients how to spend their money, but the people themselves TELLING THE GOVERNMENT what forms of reparations they need to make things right.

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Pioneer sure anyone would take free land, but the idea these same folks will also go work this land, build the necessary infrastructure, to live there is naive and short sighted--we hardly support our own businesses now.

That said, there are groups of people who are building their own communities on the own land, we don't need reparations to do this we, just the the desire, and it is simply not there.

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Sara


Perhaps you missed this:

1. Arrogant - how dare you treat me like a child and say I'm not "mature financially" to manage my money. Tell me I HAVE TO go to a school (of your choice?) and take courses YOU deem in MY best interest. Imply I am so stupid as to not know anything about the law; tell me ANYTHING when you actually believe the only thing between me and money and wealth is my lack of knowledge when people who look like me are being discriminated against for everything imaginable, as well as gunned down like dogs in the streets, EVERY FREAKIN' DAY in America. How dare you put the onus for my lack of wealth on me and not the society that does everything in its power to keep me down no matter how hard I try to rise.


Perhaps you missed me saying it's not the GOVERNMENT TELLING US how to spend our money but US TELLING THE GOVERMENT what we want as reparations!

We (the recipients) would be the ones not only determining what "The Big Pay Back" would be but how it would be used...no one else
.


2. The above assumes "good will." The above assume a level playing field. The above assumes black Americans are the sole cause of our present-day condition, or that we are in a position to actually change our bottom of the barrel position without outside interference.


I hear what you're saying but that's almost a given.
As long as there is more than one race in a society you're going to have racism to various degrees.

Receiving reparations in an unjust society is better than receiving NOTHING and still having to survive in an unjust society.





 

Troy

That said, there are groups of people who are building their own communities on the own land, we don't need reparations to do this we, just the the desire, and it is simply not there


Which is why I say part of Reparations would be a EDUCATION.
Because even if we get the land, we still need the KNOWLEDGE of how to properly work it.

When we go around Flint preaching the New Flint Project people often ask why don't we just ask the government for money and do our own thing.
Or why can't private charities just donate some money without getting the federal government involved.
I tell them all the money in the world won't help you if you don't have enough sense and technological expertise to put it to good use.
We need experts from the government who have went all over the world to places like Honduras and Afganistan building up urban infrastructures to teach us how to do the same here.
.....or else we'd just be wasting the money given to us as well as our time.

 

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Sara

No, I meant exactly what I said. Black folk telling other black folk how to spend their (maybe) money! You put a list of things Reparations should be used for. I consider it "arrogant" for you to make that decision for the rest of us, that's all.

It's not arrogance, to show our people how to best use their wealth and educate them on how NOT to be taken advantage of.

It's called EFFECTIVE LEADERSHIP.

It's irresponsible to just hand over millions of dollars to a vulnerable people, many of whom are illiterate and grossly ignorant of financial matters.

Con artists and scammers would be lined up like sharks behind slave ships just waiting to take advantage of our people.The phone calls and letters in the mail would probably start weeks BEFORE the first check came.

Look at the Trump University scandal that's brewing right now (told those Republicans not to fuck with the Clintons....lol) and how they're being accused of scaming the poor and elderly and taking advantage of their financial ignorance.

 

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Sara stop posting about quote, Pioneer's use of quoting is acceptable in this instance.  I quote people from time to time.  Your wholesale copying of other posts is the problem.  I've tried to explain the difference to you, but you obviously don't get it or care.

I moderate the forums, not you.  So spare everyone the childish remarks and tattling--I will delete those too,

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I'm having a time trying to get to the board,  Troy.  I think when you deleted quotes it disabled my browser which is out of date.  Once I was finally able to get here through the "back door", i still can't cannot fully navigate to topics.  Oh well, see ya, when I see ya.  I don't have anything of interest  to post about, anyway.

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Humm it could be a bug in the software.  I've made two upgrades this week.  I suspect when you shut down you machine or reboot it things will work normally.

My deleting of posts should have nothing to do your ability to access the board.  Also I have not restricted your access or anyone else's--just in case that crossed your mind ;)

Care take and let us know what you think about Roots.  

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