Jump to content

Black Ho's or Silk Stockings?????


Recommended Posts

This post was originally titled "The Leslie Jones Factor" but I've re-named it because I think we've done Leslie Jones to death and she deserves a break from being picked apart by strangers.  She is who she is; more power to her.

 

In another post, on another thread, dated August 10th, CDBurns wrote: ..."Name me any point in the history of us in the US where we were considered respectable, lady like, and gentlemen."

 

Come on, Chris, there has always been a black affinity for what was ladylike or gentlemanly dating back to slavery times when there was a difference in the demeanor of the field hands and the house help.

In the ensuing years after slavery "ended",  a unique black culture began to evolve, and after the great migration began in 1915, huge numbers of blacks came North, settling in the urban areas where there was always, within the black population, people who adopted middle class values attempting to mimic that lifestyle. Church-going folks and those employed as maids, chauffeurs, Pullman porters, civil service and postal workers exemplified propriety and shunned the unruly niggas who were referred to as lowlifes and riffraff.

 I understand there was a very elite set of well-to-do black people who occupied Harlem and Washington DC in the early 1900s. Also, in the south, there was a black caste system where the preachers and teachers and doctors and lawyers, raised their children to be mannerly and cultured. They were who sent their children to the HBCUs..

Beginning in the 1920s, my hometown was typical among the suburbs of Chicago where blacks moved to and settled in. Where I was born and raised. there were civic and political groups, Masons, Eastern Stars, an American Legion Post, social organizations  and clubs  all existing in a polite society apart from the neer-do-wells hangin' out on street corners, swilling cheap whiskey and acting drunk and disorderly, (But enough about my family.  ;)) Anyway, white people acknowledged the differences, and liked non threatening well-behaved negroes. And, of course, we know that the black middle class is still around, doing their thing, acting like civilized people.  You just don't hear that much about them because they aren't edgy or exciting.

It's hard to pinpoint when the bad behavior reached epidemic proportions but some say in the early 1940s, the final wave of migrants from the south were from the lower class,  black sharecroppers who brought their crude country ways with them and settled into the inner cities, merging with the existing population of shiftless people.  Well, you get the idea.

Finally, I do think Rap music was instrumental in giving black women a bad reputation.

On the threshold of my 83rd birthday, these are my reflections. Chris.  As a man in your 40s, why do you think differently?

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think I failed to explain my statement clearly. When I responded to Pioneer with that statement I was addressing that no matter what Black people do or have done, they have always had to deal with the perception of being 3/5 or not as well-groomed or well-mannered as White people. When I made that statement it was to say no matter how refined we are those people who look at us as niggers, porch monkeys, coons, etc. will always look at us as such (people change of course). With this as my qualifier does it make sense for me to say this now? Because no matter how well-behaved or well spoken we are, we are still not given equal respect, so why worry about it as it relates to White folks? Actually forget White people, Black people see other Blacks as less than and no matter what some people do, this perception among Blacks remains unchanged.

In regard to Hip-Hop I think the artform has completely failed Black people. I've said that on a number of threads here on the site. I have always thought that as the music and art in the Black community goes so goes the people. I even argued the chicken or the egg scenario. Which came first the Black movements or the music. I established this scenario by explaining that the talking drum allowed for the transference of information in African culture and that the first thing that slave owners took from the African was the drum. They took the music. I also conveyed that you can barely distinguish what came first in African American history the field song or the field song as activism. I've discussed this in detail here by talking about field songs all the way up to Freedom Songs and the essay by Bernice Reagon. We are in agreement on Hip-Hop.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Cynique, I did not come to learn about the so called Black elite until I was an adult.  All of the groups you mentioned, "civic and political groups, Masons, Eastern Stars, an American Legion Post, social organizations  and clubs," were completely beyond my world view.  I remember the first time I learned about Black Greek letter organizations--I was a freshman in college... I did not learn about Jack and Jill, the Links, or Boule until I was out of college.

I did not know a Black teacher, lawyer, doctor, or engineer growing up.  I barely knew anyone with a car, and I did not know anyone who owned the place in which they lived.

Sure we had the Black church growing up, and I went most Sundays growing up.  But other than the singing I hated every minute of it.  I could not wait to get outta there, change my clothes and go outside to play. So the church was not exactly and influence for me growing up, and my pastor was Rev. Dr. Wyatt Tee Walker

Compared to the kids coming up after me I had it pretty good...

...it got worse, as as drugs were introduced into the community, which brought violence and crime.  Then they started locking people up like there was no tomorrow. Some of the younger kids from my neighborhood gained some notoriety, like the Central Park Five. They were more the rule than the exceptions.  Of course this helped destroy the nuclear family in communities like mine.  By the time I went to college most of the youngsters I knew, grew up without their fathers--if they knew them at all.  

As far as hip-hop is concerned the art form itself is great, it was the commercialization of hip-hop if that destroyed it and, I firmly believe, helped weaken the black community as well.

I say all this Cynique to say there are many people who see women like the character Leslie plays every day (and as Pioneer suggests Leslie may indeed be one of them).  Sure they see the Michelle Obama's of the world, but they are on TV and may as well be on Mars for as much influence they'll exert on the lives of most folks.

Saturday Night Live, Hip-hop music, and the culture as a whole reinforces the Leslie Jones archetype. Michelle is just an exception.  

It is probably a lot worse out here than you might think...

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

On Saturday, August 13, 2016 at 9:04 AM, CDBurns said:

 ...no matter how refined we are those people who look at us as niggers, porch monkeys, coons, etc. will always look at us as such (people change of course)

Yes, I was responding to what you refer to as a "misunderstood" statement. And I must say, I was a little surprised by what you offered in your follow-up explanation above.   Surprised because you are always so upbeat and say how much you love this country. What you wrote sounds like the words of an unpatriotic cynic like me. LOL

 I actually think that there are just as many white people who admire black style and panache and coolness and even  try to imitate it as there are the blatant racists with a low opinion of blacks.   Then there are the whites who are in denial about blacks being as lady-like and gentlemanly as they are.   But like you imply, no point in dwelling on the subject.

@Troy Guys like you and Chris and probably Pioneer are black "Horatio Alger" characters;  you pulled yourself up by your bootstraps and became successful, but never lost your common touch.  This is what makes you authetic and admirable.

A long time ago I read the book, "Manchild in the Promised Land",  Claude Brown's coming-of-age book about a young black man growing up on the mean streets of Harlem,  and that was what introduced me to how the "other half" lives. I have always maintained that the black experience is diversified. I realized that the idyllic little interracial village where I grew up and whose self-contained community thrived while co-existing with the white majority, was atypical. And I've always considered my years at the Post Office  equivalent to a finishing school, providing me with a test case to practice the observational skills I'd learned during my 2 years at the Univserity of Illinois, -  educating me in the things that you don't learn in college text books.  The local postal branch where I worked was a facility that was a microcosm of black life.  Women who acted like Leslie Jones were quite common among the Labor force, and woman like Michelle Obama filled many of the clerical positions in the Management division where qualified black men were also prominent in the chain-of-command.  And this dates back from the 1950s to the present. So i am not blind to black life in all its forms especially since I witnessed how my currently predominately black hometown fell on hard times and became rife with drugs, unemployment, petty crime, and even murders - all of which is why I have moved away to continue living my life of leisure in the tranquil environment I've grown accustomed to.

As for music, I consider it the glue that holds black people together.  When all else fails we still have a broad selection of sounds to renew our spirits.  Rappers put black women down, but sistas still have their Marvin Gayes, and Maxwells  to pamper their ears and soothe their souls.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am always pretty upbeat, but when Pioneer and I were talking he was arguing that Leslie Jones is creating a new generation of loudmouth women. My point was to say, no she isn't. The perception of who Black women are and Black men are will always be what it is. Leslie no more reinforces the behavior of Black women than Ru Paul shapes the behavior of Black men... damn as I wrote that I realized that there are more effeminate males out there now so Pioneer might actually have a point, LOL!

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites


LOL @ the end of that other thread.
Man...I LOVE women.

 



Cynique

I concur with your observations as best I can given my age and experience.

Like most cities with large Black populations, Detroit had a strong Black Elite.
But as society started pushing for more integration and wealthy Blacks started moving out to mingle with White folks (who often had less wealth and even less class), these societies and organizations became less relevant.

My family wasn't very highly educated, we were more working class and lived in a working class neighborhood, but my father had a lot of friends in the Black clergy.  Going over their homes was like visiting royalty.  Seeing how their wives would handle silverware (real silver) with white gloves. Seeing paintings and sculptures decorating the house and China cabinets and funny rugs...lol.
Children talking about how their parents "laid out" their clothes for school and then laid out another set for playing or going to "communion" because they were Catholic or Lutheran where as most of the children I grew up with were Baptist or Methodist.  Negroes weren't born Catholic but converted just to be "different" from the other Black folk.
Boys who had never been in a fist fight....lol.
These kids were Black but I had less in common with them than some of the White kids I knew growing up.

A common belief is that the Black elite were all mixed or very light skinned, but I saw quite a few dark skinned people in upper class Black neighborhoods; but they almost always have light skinned wives. Another thing that I found interesting as I got older was that although most of these men had light skinned wives, most had dark skinned mistresses....lol. Or there first wife was dark skinned but they ended up divorcing them and their second wife was very light.


 

 

 



CD


It's not my belief that Leslie is creating a NEW generation of loud and foul mouthed women any more than gangsta rap is creating a NEW generation of criminals. Ofcourse these things already existed in the Black community as it has in EVERY community since time immemorial.  But movies like Precious, Menace 2 Society, obnoxious Black comedians, and gangsta rap are used to tap into that negative elements that already exists and PROMOTE it in the Black community and PROLONG it's negative effects in order to cause social instability.

When you see Black men constantly engaging in criminal and shiftless behavior or Black women being obnoxious and shameful, t not only kills the respect others have for you...
It kills the respect and regard our people have for themselves.
.
What woman wants a man she has been led to believe is a criminal?
What man wants a loud mouth woman with a foul attitude for a wife?
We no longer want to work and live around eachother and seek to get away from eachother and find comfort around those we deem more appealing.
And this is how many Black communities fall apart.
Those with ambition and a desire to improve themselves.....leave.


Think of the culture of a people like the culture of bacteria in a glass of milk.

That glass of milk contains dozens of types of bacteria....some good....some bad.
ALL the bacteria may be present, but depending on which type of bacteria is PROMOTED....it can make the difference between that glass of milk being fresh and drinkable, spoiled, turn into cheese, or turn into yogurt.

It's the same with any community.
All communities have all types of people in them, but depending on which element you decide to promote you can turn that community into a stable environment where people handle their problems indoors....or a violent ghetto where everybody is out in the street cussing and fighting while a few of the good people are hiding inside waiting on the first opportunity to move out.

The media seems to like promoting the negative "bacteria" in our community to create social instability and economic stagnation.

 

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think we have to separate the discussion of perception from the discussion on the reinforcement of stereotypes.

If this was purely a discussion on the reinforcement of stereotypes you wouldn't have this back and forth from me at all. I am in complete agreement and I have been for over 20 years. When I was in grad school my professor told me I had to cut myself off from the story and just let the story be. I told him, Black people can't do that. When I write I represent the majority by default. My statement, which I created and I've seen everywhere since I've said it, Black people do not have the privilege of anonymity. The group is the person and the person is the group. Is it fair? No and it shouldn't be this way, but it is. The person who is able to distance themselves from their art and create has more opportunities. When you realize the power of your creations and you write with that in your subconscious, unfortunately it can constrain you and limit your reach. We are in agreement on the reinforcement of stereotypes, but perception is what it is.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

36 minutes ago, Sara said:

I always think locking threads to save delusional trolls is amusing... male or female. ;)

IMO, what most blacks "want to" call (read: not real) the Black Elite is no different than what most teenagers call the "in crowd." Important to some of their peers, but to no one else. The title Black Elite is merely a conceit. The most that any group of such folk can do is to "influence." They have NO power to effect changes in the lives of others, and only personal power to effect the course of their own.... unlike white "Elites."

BTW, I grew up surrounded by lights, brights and almost whites. By virtue of them "closer approximating" whites in skin color, most were more prosperous than their darker-skinned contemporaries. Sought out for dates and parties, but possessing the power and prerogatives of an "elite?" Hardly.

 

When did you start thinking?? You seem incapable of doing anything other than suckin up to Pioneer, pathetically seeking him as an ally. LMAO.  We know you're disappointed that he made a  reasonable decison to post on a new thread since the other one was turning into a marathon.

And nobody said the black elite represented "power".  All anybody did was acknowledge that a segment of the black population who fit the definition of the word "elite", exists and - does possess more privileges that the underclasses.  Implicit in this entire thread is the contention that blacks on all levels lack real power

elite: A group or class of persons considered to be superior to others ...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Cynique

 

"You seem incapable of doing anything other than suckin up to Pioneer, pathetically seeking him as an ally. LMAO"


Lol....why don't you  give her some competition!


I personally don't have a problem with the concept of a Black "elite" as long as it's not based on superficial things like complexion and religious affiliation.

I like the idea that like everyone else, we can also have nobility and a system of heirarchy that demands high achievement, high social standards, and other positive attributes. to aspire to.
I just don't like how the traditional Black elite society have traditionally based their success on nearness to Whites in terms of behavior and even looks.  But we should have our own standards, traditions of success, and systems that are unique to us.

 

 

 


CD

I'm not sure I understand your point clearly enough, can you restate it differently or perhaps make it more simplitic?



 


.

Sara


"They have NO power to effect changes in the lives of others, and only personal power to effect the course of their own.... unlike white "Elites."

You're right.
With the exception of actual BUSINESS OWNERS, most of the Black elite I've met have very little real power.
They are well educated and have money, but outside of property few have real wealth or power/authority to change things either on their jobs or in society in general.

They tend to have TITLES....but no authority behind the title.

Most Black people of high positions don't even have the power to keep their own children out of trouble or provide jobs for them inside the company or government in which they operate.
For example, a Black fire chief can't get his sons in the fire department or on the police department like most White chiefs or other White officials can and have traditionally done.  Hell, he can barely keep HIS OWN job and he's nervous as hell that if he farts too loud he'll be forced to resign from it!

Even most Black business owners who have power inside their own businesses have very little power in the actual INDUSTRY their businesses operate in.

The Black man who owns his own barber shop or the Black woman who owns her own beauty salon STILL has to go to the Korean beauty supply store for their equipment !

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ol Suck-up Sara really has a problem with Cynique taking the lead on a site named Cynique's Corner..  If she had her way, i would be a furtive lurker like her, trying to weasel her way into a discussions on a new thread she was miffed over me starting. SMH.

And this wanna-be offers a predictably contradictory  argument about the myth of black superiority  when she is someone who thinks  entry level secretaries are "superior" to bag-slinging postal workers.  LMAO.  And Middle class black people do occupy a superior position to those in the deprived underclass who lack ownership and money.      

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Nice try, Suck-up Sara, but no cigar to go with the booze you been swilling. You're bush league, so stupid  that you can't figure out, that you could avoid intrusions from me if you had the guts to rise above the sly sneakiness that prompts you to make veiled references to me while pandering to Pioneer. Add this to your being a font of half-truths and lies, and you make a perfect target for anybody who can read.  As for me considering you a threat, get real!  I don't want to monopolize this board.  I wish more people would post so I could focus on somebody other than you and your vapid, paranoid self.  Then I could comment on their threads instead of writing essays.  if I wanted a solo gig, I'd start my own blog, Dummy.   And I'm still trying to figure out why all the lurker fans you imagine are hanging onto your every word, don't step up and support you and enable your dream of a hostile takeover LMAO.

Melanin deprived, huh?  Now we get it.   You undoubtedly have an overload of melanin which is why you're so evil and resentful. Trying to distance yourself from Leslie Jones, wishing you looked half as good as she does. Attempting  to compensate for being a shadow of the people you grew up around, - a reject shunned by the "in crowd",  pathetically trying to compensate for being a cast off by earning a degree,  -  probably from an online college.  ROTFLOL.  

Ol Saranwrap, transparent and clingy.Take her, Pioneer.  She's all yours.   Arguing with this hood rat is really a waste of my time.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think we have to separate the discussion of perception from the discussion on the reinforcement of stereotypes.

You centered your discussion on the negative effects of Leslie's characters. This is a discussion on reinforcing stereotypes and the detriment it creates for Black folks. You then utilized cause and effect to state that her actions create perceptions. I disagreed with that statement because it doesn't matter what Leslie does, the people who perceive us in a certain way are going to do so with or without Leslie/Madea. 

My argument is that combining the two to establish that Leslie's actions create a crop of women acting a certain way is wrong. Women who act like Leslie's characters existed long before Leslie and will exist long after. She could disappear tomorrow and this could change things, but I think history shows that it wouldn't.

The reinforcement of stereotypes is a very important topic that doesn't have to be qualified by attaching the behavior of one person (an actress) to the topic. Although I do understand that she is a good example for your discussion and in a paper I couldn't say anything against it because it does prove the point.

(Lol, I never do simple :-)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sara

Well even if you WERE sucking up to me, I don't think "sucking up" or "kissing ass" is necessarily a bad thing....lol.

I wouldn't mind "sucking up" to Cynique, you, or Troy....if I thought I could get something of value out of it like money or massive promoting or a good position in some firm.

Part of thinking outside of the box is putting me ego and pride to the side when it comes to seeking to achieve certain objectives.

I could have been in a cussing match with somebody last night and wouldn't think twice about coming to them the next morning apologizing and trying to make up with them if they hold the key to my success for a given goal.







CD

Ok, I see what you're saying now.......

But again, I'm not accusing Black actresses who play loud obnoxious ghetto types of CREATING the perception.....I'm accusing them of PERPETUATING it.
They didn't start the fire but they're keeping it going.

Similar to how the people alive today didn't start America's economic system. It was started centuries ago, but people today are playing their respective roles in keeping it rolling along.
That's how the perceptions of Black inferiority work.
Black people who have accepted this belief and their roles in it keep it going.

Ofcourse the mode or stereotype of the vulgar obnoxious Black woman who tended not to be as "gentle" or "refined" as the White woman has existed for decades....centuries probably.
But actresses like Leslie come along and accept roles that keep this negative perception going; usually with an excuse of trying to "make a living" or "get their foot in the door".

Black actors and actresses in Hollywood tend not to be as versatile as their White counterparts and are more likely to be TYPECASTED into certain roles that the public expects to see them in because of their phenotype.
Vighn Rhames is a good example of what I'm talking about.
You'll never see that brother play a professor or doctor because the "public" doesn't expect a Black man who looks like that to be intelligent enough to pass it off.

As Cynique said, we (or I rather) have beat up on Leslie enough.....no need to stomp her out.
But we shouldn't underestimate the power and influence a woman who has weekly role on a major network like NBC  has over:
1. Young Black females who naturally absorb images they see of other Black females in the media and get their cues on how to behave from them.

2. White people who religiously watch SNL and who may already have ideas of Black dysfunctionality raging in their minds and now the skits being perform....while not having INITIATED those racist ideas....certainly fuels them.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Troy locked this topic
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...