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What's Wrong With This Picture?


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On 5/18/2017 at 10:35 AM, Delano said:

She is a commidity. Troy and Pioneer wouldn't buy her, Cynique and Mel would. 

@Delano,  Ms. Davis is not a commodity in the respect that she's for sale - her work is for consumption but not her. 

What's for sale is this issue of "Time" magazine.  The magazine cover dictates newsstand sales. 

What's in question is whether or not the photograph of Ms. Davis and Ms Davis's popularity will sell copies. 

Would I pick up this issue if I saw it on the stand?  Yes I would.  I'd want to know why Ms. Davis is so happy and what's next in her career.  

So in that respect, yes I'd buy.

 

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Mel

The amount of Black women with White man is increasing in the United States for the same reasons the amount of ASIAN WOMEN with White men are increasing.....most of the men with money and willing to settle down to be husbands today are primarily White men.

Historically in the United States White men held power and money but this situation was severely reversing itself in the 60s and 70s because of 2 main reasons:

1. Women's liberation which allowed women to become independant, work for a decent wage/salary, and make their OWN money.


2. The Civil Rights movement along with the Black Power movement which brought better jobs and better living conditions to both Black men AND women....but also caused many newly independant White women to start eyeing Black men with good jobs as potential mates.


When White women started making their own money....they started leaving White men in droves, so the powers that be had to figure out a way to give White males thier "edge" back.

They began to de-industrialize the inner cities and take the jobs away from Black men so they wouldn't be considered so much of a "competition" and started jobs that demanded higher and higher education for the more "high tech" careers.

Millions of White men lost these jobs as well and THEIR marriages also broke up and fell apart but poor White men were more likely to use violence and domestic abuse to keep control over their wives and girlfriends to keep them from leaving.
Besides this, there were enough smart "brainy" and "nerdy" White men who could go to school and get these good jobs and THESE are the ones you see primarily scoring wives among Black and Asian women today.

While there are some exceptions and most men will try to make the "family life" work...........
The fact is the average man Black OR White is really too poor to "afford" a wife;  primarily it's these nerds and "brains" you mostly see who are married to these women of all races and pushing strollers around playing Mr. Dad.

Look at most of them.
Most of them are nerdy, wiry, and goofy....but they have good jobs and make good money and are usually "faithful".


I've never experienced an "overseer" so I may be to liberal in my use of the definition -but this feels like you believe in doing the work of those who seek to oppress.
What people choose to wear is their choice.


That's not necessarily true.
Especially if subliminal messages are being aimed at them to influence them.

Look at how so many Black youth are "choosing" to wear they pants baggy and sagging down past thier underwear.
If it's a "choice" totally up to them.....why weren't men wearing their pants that way 50 years ago?

If it's a choice, why do most women wear make up and most men do not?

It's more than a personal choice, it's subliminal messaging and marketing along with peer pressure.




If someone chooses to make a caricature of someone's style - that ignorance is THEIRS and theirs alone.. not the person wearing the style.

I'm glad those young women are ignorant (as in unaware) of the caricature of Aunt Jemina - at least they aren't tainted by self-hate and it won't take up room in their head.


Either that...or their ignorance makes them easier to manipulate since their enemies don't have to waste time coming up with NEW ideas to disgrace them.....just keep repeating the same old ones every other generation because they won't recognize the old tricks.

God gave us a memory for a REASON.

When you don't know your past, you can't strategize for the present let alone the future.

Remember the old saying......
Those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it.






Del

Why does she have to be attractive or not atttactive.

Because it's a PICTURE on the cover of a MAGAZINE.

Attractive looks sell magazines.
Attractive voices sell music.
Attractive smells selll fragrances.

This is just common sense.

The only time someone wants to look at an unattractive picture is in ridicule or to make themselves feel better about how THEY look.



Troy


We have also heard the rap artists explain away and justify depicting Black women in an objectified, misogynistic manner. I always viewed this as a racist treatment of our people, but I was always an outlier on this issue.

Ofcourse it's racist.
Especially when you have White executives who purposely exclude positive Black rappers and sign on the most negative demeaning embrarassment they can find with little or no talent.

I'm the type of person who always looks for a MOTIVE in anything someone does.
When you examine and speculate on the MOTIVE, then seemingly "senseless" behavior becomes much clearer and makes much more sense.

Just like a White magazine will take an unflattering picture of a Black woman when there are much better ones......

When a White executive at a record label takes an untalented rapper who raps about negativity and disrespecting women and sign him and promotes him while excluding one who is clearly talented and raps about positive experiences......


You'll have to ASSUME it's for racist purposes in order to disrespect, discredit, and humiliate.

But like I said earlier....our people have to be "sharp" enough to recognize this.
If not, they'll continue to be ridiculed and taken advantage of.

 

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On 5/18/2017 at 6:22 PM, Troy said:

I'm afraid I did not communicate my point very well because it looks like you missed it. But in general, in a white racist culture white men exercise a lot of power over Black women.  Sometimes the use of the power escapes Black women and this can be infuriating to brothers...

@Troy Well that makes two of us.  It seems my point was missed as well.

Take Two 

Black women have a different relationship with white men  - one black men aren't privy to.  It's the main reason black women made the best spies during the civil war.

Black women know very well what racism looks like. We weren't absent for the last 600 years, we've been on the front lines fighting it at every turn - sometimes alone.  
The fact that some black men believe they have to inform black women of racism and are infuriated when we don't believe them represents a level of arrogance that is mind-blowing.  

We (black women) don't need black men tapping us on the shoulder, saying, "dude is being racist"  If anything, black women need black men to speak up on their behalf about economic oppression, institutional racism and injustice that is unique to black women.   We need black men to lend a hand to right the table when, for example, black women are paid less money than white men, black men and white women when doing the same job  and are better educated with more degrees and experience. 

It's not hard to recognize what racism looks like when Black women are the first to say "Follow me" Underground Railroad", I'm not giving up my seat"  Our Lives Matter"  while continuously chip away at the bricks and mortar of institutional racism while battling daily doses of sexism with the other.  Seriously what could a black man notice and inform a black women about who lives with a daily double dose of oppression?

Further, black women have been style trendsetters since we arrived in the Americas... today we call it cultural appropriation when white women take our styles ...but they do copy us to appeal to white men and black celebrities.

Therefore making a caricature of a black women's features doesn't deny  black women opportunities.  It's childish but it's harmless trolling that targets black men like dudes playing the dozens trading mama jokes.    But instead of black men lobbing a few of their own, they instead return to black women and say,

"white men say black women are ugly, don't you agree?"    I, for one, say, "no." 

And It's not because I'm oblivious to racial taunts.  it simply doesn't resonate with me.  

What some black men finds 'racist" concerning black women is personal. And with that Time magazine cover it appears as if it hit its intended mark.

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Very interesting.  @Delano , if a tree falls in the forest it still makes a sound--even if no one is there to hear it. Similarly, if a racist behaves in a racist manner, but one can't or chosen not to perceive it as such does not make the racist any less racist.  Here is a question for you:  Is Trump racist?

To your way of thinking Del, if you are not in the forest to hear the tree falling it does not make a sound and therefore if you choose not to see racism it does not exist. Does that sum it up?  Is racism purely subjective, in the eye of the beholder?

@Cynique, you still did not answer my simple question: Which photo looks more natural? Interestingly you responded to which one looks "better." Perhaps that was a Freudian slip.  

You and Del seem to be fixated on her relative attractiveness.  I'm not concerned with that and have not raised the issue of her beauty.  Pioneer has raised this issue her attractiveness, but while we agree on the "subtle racism" in play here, we do see things a little differently.

@Mel Hopkins , I don't disagree much of what you wrote in your past post. Here is a simple question for you (or anyone of course); is the photo of Lebron James, which Cynique accurately described as "being substituted for the giant gorilla King Kong," even a little racist in your view?  Why or why not? 

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Troy Everything is subjective. Otherwise you and Pioneer wouldn't disagree on points you both feel are clear or common sense. 

Think about it unless you perceive racism it doesn't exist for you. In your mind this is ridiculous. But there us an implication which i will overtly state. My perception does not change the global reality on my perception. And perception is reality. That's obvious to anyone that reading the post in this thread. Excluding your own. I have dropped a few bread crumbs. Cynique attempted to draw yiur attention to this with the simple statement. Del has made some good points. However I don't think this sparked any fresh inquiry along ybe lines of my inflammatory statements. The flame illuminated little. Two final statements. I could be overestimating may contribution to this argumemt. Whenever I agree with Pioneer I know I have missed something. 

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2 hours ago, Troy said:

Here is a simple question for you (or anyone of course); is the photo of Lebron James, which Cynique accurately described as "being substituted for the giant gorilla King Kong," even a little racist in your view?  Why or why not? 

See @Troy, it's not simple for me... This goes to what @Delano said " Think about it unless you perceive racism it doesn't exist for you. In your mind this is ridiculous. " ... Lebron looks like a warrior very much in the spirit of Spartacus 94e85fa3868b38c1869e2fe36dcbf167.jpg My father was a warrior - so when I see black men I see warriors.  This cover made me sad, though, because I see protection in the warrior spirit but I don't see him protecting someone that looks like me... and the fact that model is carefree and dancing means she feels very much protected and safe to just be her playful self...

This is what I mean about how imagery reflects our beliefs.... You'd probably never write that story from that photo but that's how it affects me.  

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@Delano, Thumper used to say "every closed eye ain't sleep."  I saw many of your bread crumbs but chose not to run with them.  In much the same was you avoided my question asking you if you thought Trump was racist.  

God forbid someone around here provides a simple yes or no response to a direct question :o 

Del, do you think Trump is a racist?

I chose, for example, not to pick up some of your breadcrumbs; like the comment of me sounding like Pioneer--that one cut deep Bruh (sorry Pioneer ;)). It is a tactic you like, as you used it in your last post--again I chose not to run with it.  All barbs aside  I have no problem agreeing with Pioneer from time to time.  On this particular issue though we agree for slightly different reasons.

Of course our perceptions on these photos are purely subjective.  There is no "right" or "wrong" answer here. I never wrote or suggested the anyone else here is "wrong" or that I'm right.  Obviously, I think I'm right, but I also recognize that I can be wrong which is the only reason I'm even entertaining alternative opinions. 

For example, Cynique mentioned challenging religious people on their views.  I never do this because people who follow a religion, by definition, are not open to alternative perspectives.  I assume all of you open to alternative opinions, otherwise, why bother reading the opinions of people whose opinions differ, often strongly, from own? 

So @Mel Hopkins  I can only assume that you see no racism in the way that LeBron is portrayed (assuming because you did not respond to my question).

I don't view Lebron as my protector.  If anything I see him as my kid, a big rich one, but someone junior to me as a son is to a father.  So when I see the photo I see my kid being ridiculed in a very slick racist manner.  In fact, LeBron could have used some protection himself, but on a different level.

When I see that photo of Dijomon Hinsou (sp?)   I'm just reminded of the story, from where the image was taken, of how a handful of white boys defeated a massive army of Black Africans... (the Hinsou character was thrown down a hole, and he was an emissary, whose role was not respected)

But again this is from the perspective of a Black man raised in a white racist society and feed to countless stories a Black people being defeated by white on every level.  

Look, I know almost no one looks at the images we are fed this deeply and how it adversely impacts us.  This is why @Pioneer1pointing out Viola resonated with me I knew exactly where he was coming from--even though we may disagree on some of the particulars.  Our perspective might sound alien, but that is because Black male perspectives are ignored suppressed even.

We can choose to ignore racism, or explain it away, and suffer the consequences.  

I'd prefer that we recognize it for what it is and deal with it.

 

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15 minutes ago, Troy said:

I can only assume that you see no racism in the way that LeBron is portrayed (assuming because you did not respond to my question)

racism:

  •  

Definition of racism

  1. 1 :  a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race

  2. 2a :  a doctrine or political program based on the assumption of racism and designed to execute its principlesb :  a political or social system founded on racism

  3. 3 :  racial prejudice or discrimination

Nope. This photo doesn't fit the definition.

24 minutes ago, Troy said:

When I see that photo of Dijomon Hinsou (sp?)   I'm just reminded of the story, from where the image was taken, of how a handful of white boys defeated a massive army of Black Africans... (the Hinsou character was thrown down a hole, and he was an emissary, whose role was not respected)

Erm @Troy... this photo  is  Peter Mensah who plays Oenomaus, a top notch gladiator and teacher of Spartacus,  in the Starz series  "Spartacus"... Spartacus is  a story inspired by  a small group of slaves fought against oppression of oligarchy,  overthrowing  a large roman army... 

Maybe there's some truth to how blinding racism can be...:P

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@Mel Hopkins, I'm surprised you would use this approach to answer the question I posed.  

I believe you understood my question.  I also believe you know I know what the word means.  My use of the word in this context was appropriate given a broader and perhaps more colloquial use of the term  As in the results of an action taken by a person who is a racist is "racist."  A broader description of  #2 of the definition you provided would include in my view the media's representation of our people; which is part of our "social system."

Here is a new question for you (anyone).  Do you believe that the media (news, entertainment, etc) is capable of being racist?

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2 minutes ago, Troy said:

@Mel Hopkins, I'm surprised you would use this approach to answer the question I posed.  

I believe you understood my question.  I also believe you know I know what the word means.  My use of the word in this context was appropriate given a broader and perhaps more colloquial use of the term  As in the results of an action taken by a person who is a racist is "racist."  A broader description of  #2 of the definition you provided would include in my view the media's representation of our people; which is part of our "social system."

Here is a new question for you (anyone).  Do you believe that the media (news, entertainment, etc) is capable of being racist?

@Troy, I'm surprised that you can't believe you're not the arbiter of all things racist. LOL! 

This is why there's no yes or no answers to subjective questions such as racism.  From my perspective the LeBron picture IS NOT racist even by your definition. Someone else could see this picture and demand apology ...but me? meh.  I stated what's disconcerting to me about the photo - and that may amount to nothing more than jealousy on my part. 

 

"Here is a new question for you (anyone).  Do you believe that the media (news, entertainment, etc) is capable of being racist?"

Nope... but I believe General Managers, News director, exec producers, reporters and in anyone in the position to make editorial decisions can be.

Many make decisions where the true definition of racism comes into play - but so far, I think I'm the only one who has actually spoken out against one of the most egregious decisions of late.

 What I'm referring to are the state-sanctioned executions and maiming of black men shown on our local, cable & network nightly news.   I've written to my local stations, tweeted to cable stations about their decisions to show state-sanctioned murders in heavy rotations - desensitizing the viewing public to black murders...

This is a double standard (racist act) because they won't show the murders of white people on television.  When that truck driver mowed down people on that bridge in France on Bastille day and the casualties and dead were strewn along the streets every American Cable station made the decision not to show the carnage - their reasoning was due to young viewers watching...To me that sent the message Black dead bodies aren't of concern or disturbing because they're just "blacks" ... Why no consideration for black men being shot in the street, tasered or run down by cars? Because in their ears ...black executions are entertaining as public hangings back in the jim crow south.

Have you written to your local station, network or cable station about this type of bias? Have you "noticed"?

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Actually, I had noticed Mel, and I even wrote about the fact on is a forum.

If General Managers, News director, exec producers, and reporters are racist.  Their product will be racist.  But we'll just have to agree to disagree on this point.

Mel I simply do not consume news on TV and have not for decades.  So I have less than zero motivation to write them.

Besides the majority of Americans now consume news on social media, and you already know how I feel about social media.  

I consume my news from newspapers, magazines, and websites. I do comment on websites. I never write a newspaper or magazine; I just stop subscribing.

My weapon of choice, as you might image, is the book. 

Of course in the infinite scheme of things this one photo of Viola is inconsequential.

However, the photo is reflective of a country whose culture has been hostile to Black people since it's inception.  The racism here is so entrenched many white people fail to comprehend how they benefit and sadly many Blacks fail to understand how they have been harmed.

Indeed many of us buy wholeheartedly into the institutions and structures that are doing us harm.  Billy Dee can sell us malt liquor to drink, NWA can sell us the gangsta mentality, books written for Black children attempt to completely whitewash the horrors of slavery, our most successful athletes can be depicted in ways the perpetuate the Black brute stereotype, and even the talented Viola Davis can be displayed in a manner that invokes black sambo imagery.

But this will never change because in a white racist culture you 'll never go broke being racist, it may even land you in the white house.  

Oh, my bad, I'm apparently the only one who believes Trump is indeed racist...

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44 minutes ago, Troy said:

Besides the majority of Americans now consume news on social media,

@Troy Unfortunately, the statistics don't support your  assumption.

Majority of Americans are still glued to the television including black Americans to get their news  .  So it's important to continue to remind television execs that it's not cool to show black death on television for any amount of revenue.  Our youth should not be subjected to such a high disregard for  black lives.    

Your response is confusing to me - you want me to be all up in arms about your perspective of beauty or athleticism and how it's pictured but this is how you respond to something you know exist and can mentally harm us..

 

"Mel I simply do not consume news on TV and have not for decades.  So I have less than zero motivation to write them."

 

I won't watch when television news shows graphic images of murder - but they will hear from me every time they broadcast black murder.   Gratuitous violence at the cost of black lives is not cool - whether I'm a consumer of television news or not.  If I hear about it - I'm writing.

As for 45, I didn't vote for him... I voted for Hillary in the last election.  I couldn't care less if he's a racist - he's not qualified to be in the highest office of the land.

 



 

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7 hours ago, Troy said:

you still did not answer my simple question: Which photo looks more natural? Interestingly you responded to which one looks "better." Perhaps that was a Freudian slip.  

i think it's becoming obvious that in this entire debate, semantics are blurring, rather than clarifying responses and the message each one of us is attempting to convey is compromised by the disparities between one person's definition of a word as opposed to the other person's definition of the same word. So there is no common ground.

This would seem to be the case when i responded to your request for which of the 2 posted pictures of Viola Davis looked more "natural".   My idea of natural had to do with the first dictionary definition listed below and that is what my answer to your question reflected. Your definition of natural is more aligned with the 2nd dictionary definition of natural and this is your reference for saying i did not answer your "simple" question.   

These 2 definitions are the reason why i referred to "natural' as being ambiguous and i settled on using the word "better" in my response and i explained my reason for answering the way i did.  With respect to both definitions, i can't give you an either/or answer because both pictures are natural on some level and unnatural on another.  So, you 'll just have to abandon your role of being an arbitrator and settle for the rely i gave. :D

                                                                                  NATURAL

1.  existing in or caused by nature; not made or caused by humankind.
2.  of or in agreement with the character or makeup of, or circumstances surrounding, someone or something.
 
As for racism, i, for instance,  have mixed emotions about SNL continuing to give :Leslie Jones a forum for portraying an overbearing, sex-crazed, loud black woman. For me, this irritation was exacerbated  when she appeared on the show  a couple of weeks ago, doing this routine.  The audience who is practically all white love her antics and laugh loudly not with, but at her.  
 
But this character seems to come natural to Leslie and TIME magazine thinks her character is worthy enough to earn Leslie a place on the list of the 100 most influential famous people,  We all know people who act like the type of sista that Leslie lampoons so we have to ask  that since it is an authentic depiction, should we allow ourselves to be manipulated into defending or condemning SNL's enabling Leslie to glorify this type of black woman.  SNL mercilessly skewers  Trump and other political or pop culture celebrities, who make headlines in the news, so they don't really discriminate.  i find Leslie's buffoonery offensive and  over the top,  It could  be said, however, that she pushes the envelop and challenges blacks to be able to take a joke. Laugh to keep from crying
 
BTW, there was a lot of protest about the cover of Lebron James  recreating  King Kong abducting a white blond blue-eyed damsel in distress, and i think rightfully so. But racism is just so pervasive and the white powers that be so in control. that you could make a living pointing out daily examples of it, as some black leaders do, thanks to malicious white corporate types providing them with grist for their mills.
 
 
 
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Troy I am thinker. I will thoroughly explain racism from my perspective. Although I had done so in a previous post. 

I forgot the Trump question. Trump is not a racist he is an opportunist and misanthrope. His biographer says Trump has no philosophy. Its just grab as much ___ as you can. He did a photo op with Kanye West and Black Educators. With a rather large smile. Donald Trump is for Donald Trump. Why does Melania choose not to stay in one of the most prestigious pieces of real estate.  She would rather be in New York.

Your TV comment seems to mirror my statement about racism not being seen. In this case you acknowledge and vote with your dollars. However this is a personal choice not part of a larger boycott. I am hesitant to point this out. Since you spend your life promoting books. However Mel point is valid. Your argument is a weak counter. However you spend a Herculean amount of effort to educate the Folks. 

There are two streams to racism. Economic and Social. For owners its a way to keep Everyone in place. Just like every other ism.  There's an intersting article that looks at Slavery as work place harrasment. Using rape of Women and Men as a control technique. Apparently Alpha Black Men were anally raped publicly. 

The overseer is meant to feel superior to the slaves.Poor Whites were made overseers. Translation your better than them but not as good as us.

Pioneer believes his world is the world. You are starting to sound more like Pioneer. 

I have a neutral position. Which allows me more freedom of thought. Or freer thinking. It's impossible to have an open mind unless you can see your beliefs and assumptions. I am also observing the style of discussion. 

I saw Leslie Jones do stand up before? SNL. You can say whatever you want in comedy. If it's not funny then it's offensive. 

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Troy it doesn't feel as though you are open to other views. Not when you say are you the only who believes Trump is racist. What does Pioneer think? 

 

Troy your statement from time to time.  Implies you are not comfortable agreeing with some of Pioneer's illogical statements that are common sense to him.

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Mel, I don't expect you to be "up in arms,"  I'm not even up in arms.

Had Pioneer not posted the photos I probably would never have seen it.  I have not cracked the pages of Time in more years than I can remember. I also want to remind you this is not about "beauty" for me.  I never used the word, all I've done is refute beauty being part of my argument.

No need to be confused, I'm not writing Time magazine, I'm not calling for a boycott of them, I'll just go back to continuing to ignore them

Again I just find it fascinating that some people see racism where other do not.  Even the unwillingness of some to recognize it when it is staring them in the face is remarkable to me.  I would never have guessed this to be the case.  I've learned a lot in the discussion.

Actually, I've been reading a lot on this subject lately but I should have been more precise. Old people watch TV for news. The majority of young America consume news online and the majority of those through social media.  The trend strongly favors a rapid growth of news consumption in this manner, and if Facebook continues to grow in dominance, they could be the number platform for the consumption of news for Americans. 

What makes Facebook's dominance so troubling is that fake news still proliferates on Facebook and their algorithm creates filter bubbles.  The end result is a population which is at best less informed and at worse, misinformed...

Now if you want to apply the "phrase up in arms" to me.  Use it in conjunction with Facebook.  I've been boycotting the platform since early March.  But I also recognize virtually no one will boycott Facebook despite tons of great reasons to do so.  People just don't care enough about anything to change any aspect of their behavior for more than a few minutes.

Think about it, (this is probably worth a separate conversation), the planet is rapidly heading to a point where it will be inhospitable to sustain humanity; and collectively we are doing NOTHING about it.  We are an interesting species...

The failure of the media to recognize Trump for the racist (or at least behaves like one, courting and earning the support KKK) con man he is, in fact, the reason he in the white house.  They failed to call a spade a spade but instead treated him as if he was a legitimate candidate, covering him extensively--just to make more money.

The failure to recognize racism is dangerous to us as Black people and virtually ensures its continuation.

Now, of course, I know racism (as Del implied) is a tool of the capitalist. I also know that any educated person knows there is only one race and humans are far more alike than we are different. But these facts mean very little to actual racist operating in a racist society.

@Cynique, OK I understand your response to my question.  I also feel some kinda way about Leslie's skits on SNL too, particularly when they pair her with that puny white boy. But SNL is starting to bore me anyway.  I'm tired of seeing Trump administration skits, They are becoming less and less funny to me.

Still SNL is a show written by mostly white men for white people.  How many years did it take for them to get Black women on the show? And when they finally got some we see how they are used...

@Delano , I just wanted to know what you thought about Trump.  I can't know what is in the man's heart, but his behavior is indistinguishable from a racist's. So it does not really matter what you or I think about his underlying motives.  His behavior speaks for itself.  Del, do you think Trump, at least sometimes, behaves in a racist manner?  Bold faced so that you don't forget it this time?

Del, my comment about being the only person who believes Trump is a racist was not meant to be taken literally.  It was a just a playful dig at you and Mel ;)

 

 

 

 

 

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5 hours ago, Troy said:

I'm not writing Time magazine, I'm not calling for a boycott of them, I'll just go back to continuing to ignore them

Again I just find it fascinating that some people see racism where other do not.  Even the unwillingness of some to recognize it when it is staring them in the face is remarkable to me.  I would never have guessed this to be the case.  I've learned a lot in the discussion.

There can be no unwillingness to "recognize" racism...You either perceive it or you don't.   There can only be an unwillingness to speak out against what one perceives as racism.  If one "sees" racism but says nothing then they're  completely ineffective in the fight against oppression.

 

When I see/experience racism, I DO something about it.   When I experienced what I believed was racial/sexist bias at my workplace - I filed a complaint against my employer...No lip service.   No ignoring it 'hoping it would go away.  I. Filed. A. Complaint.  

In an emergency - "you don't fight the smoke - you fight the fire...Using your resources and energy on the fire " prevents the house from burning down to the ground or a plane from burning up in the sky  

A subjective photo ... is smoke.  

Black men being executed in the streets for our viewing pleasure... is the fire ...

I fight fires...

Speaking of  those who don't recognize racism (or danger for that matter) when it's staring them in the face...

94% of black women voted for Hillary

15% of black men voted for Trump 

 

 

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@Mel Hopkins, sure there can be an "unwillingness' to see racism.  People are in denial about a great many things.  It makes it easier to get through life--especially when the thing you choose to ignore in something you can't do anything about.

Yes, I often wonder about the 6% of Black women who voted for Trump.  If would be really interesting to pick their brains about their reasoning.  I suspect most a just very conservative and voted the party line, some are probably so firmly entrenched in the white culture that a Trump vote just made sense, still others voted for him simply because they felt they would benefit financially. I suspect Omarosa is one of these ladies.

Does anyone personally know a Black woman that voted for Trump?

@Delano , based upon your reasoning everything is in one's mind, which makes a discussion or debate about anything futile doesn't it?  Still your response did not answer my question, apparently, the boldfacing alone was not enough to grab your attention:

 Del, do you think Trump, at least sometimes, behaves in a racist manner? 

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14 minutes ago, Troy said:

sure there can be an "unwillingness' to see racism.

 No  it's impossible to see what's not in their perspective... see how hard it is for you to understand that?  It's because you can't perceive it.  You are not unwilling to recognize it  - you just can't perceive it. 

As for Trump voters I want to know why 15% of black men voted for Trump.  Further I want to know why 400,000 black men electorate - didn't vote period even though they could.

20 minutes ago, Troy said:

, based upon your reasoning everything is in one's mind, which makes a discussion or debate about anything futile doesn't it?

 

Everything is in your own mind.   Your thoughts and beliefs make up your reality. 

This is why it's important to free your mind from its beliefs and engage in productive thinking so you can "see"...

Debates and discussions are important because no one can see and experience everything.  Books are very handy for this reason.

We can share experiences through our discussion and debates teach us empathy for what we can't see or have experienced.

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Mel I think we are talking about two different things.  Of course, if something is imperceptible it is not subject to one's will.  It is like saying someone has an unwillingness to see a Muon (an unstable subatomic particle).

I'm talking abut people who have the ability to perceive something but chose to ignore it or create a story to explain it away.  

I think most of the Black men who voted for Trump did so for financial reasons mostly.  What do you think?

I'm sure most of the Black men who chose not to vote were bombarded by the media Hillary is crook message and chose to opt out, that and the fact you have to get up and stand in a line was enough to stop great numbers of people from voting--not just Black men.   

I almost opted out until Cynique, without realizing it, talked some sense into me.  But I've talked to a lot of Black people who chose not to vote...

 

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Troy you have a blind spot on this topic. 

In my answer i said Trump ia not a racist. You are confusing me not answering your question , with not giving you the answer you want.

Perhaps you and Pioneer are making sexist statements. Not racial ones. So the problem is that for you and Pioneer your patriarchal mibd is oveeriding the racial one. It reminds me how some white people can't see their own racism. You and Pioneer are judging Viola to be unattractive and are attributing it to racism. You do know that Black seems ti be really gois with dominating or attempting to dominate women. 

It ia never easy when we discover our inner prejudices. 

Thanks for explaining twin. I am going to spectate fie a bit.

Del

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This entire story seems to go right down sexual lines with the women on one side, the men on the other....and Delano playing his usual role as female instigator, lol.

I'm curious as to what @CDBurns has to say about the issue.
Hadn't seen him in this neighborhood in a good while.

 

 


Troy

Well first of all, I don't know about those stats about Blacks voting for Donald Trump.
I don't know ONE Black man who told me he was voting for Trump.....not one.

But this thread illustrates the macrocosm of the Black community and how so many fail to perceive racism unless it's blatant and vulgar.

Unless they're being called a nigger or come to work and find a noose laying across their desk....everything is cool beans.

What makes it even worse, when you try to point out racism to those who aren't as perceptive they'll often turn on you and fight you over being too sensative or looking for problems where none exist.

Sometimes when you're dealing with people who aren't perceptive enough to recognize subtle racism (and I have to admit that this...in my opinion....IS very subtle), the best thing to do is wait until it IS systemic and happens so often that you now have a pattern you can point to and atleast use that as proof of your accusations.

Like drugs.
It took a lot of Black people nearly a decade to realize that drugs were being brought into the Black community on purpose and that our community was being TARGETED.
They just didn't want to believe it and didn't see a connection.

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Delano

Perhaps you and Pioneer are making sexist statements. Not racial ones. So the problem is that for you and Pioneer your patriarchal mibd is oveeriding the racial one. It reminds me how some white people can't see their own racism. You and Pioneer are judging Viola to be unattractive and are attributing it to racism.

I can't speak for Troy but......

Although I wouldn't call that particular picture of Viola "unattractive" I would say it is the LEAST attractive picture that I've seen of her so far and the fact that a White magazine skilled at photography and marketing just happened to put the LEAST attractive picture of her on the cover of their magazine is a bit suspcious to me.

 

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4 hours ago, Troy said:

 Of course, if something is imperceptible it is not subject to one's will

Exactly!!!...you either see it or you don't and it doesn't have to be a subatomic particle either...we all have different experiences therefore we are all going to perceive things differently.  

Unless we have additional tools for viewing all we can do is empathize.  I believe you do see something racist in those photos.  My not seeing it doesn't change what you see.  Your seeing it doesn't change how I see it.

I grew up in middle class family - I started school in Germany, I owned my first house at 18 years old... I negotiated my first entertainment contract before 25... I raised  my daughters  in victorian mansion  (not a mcMansion a bonifide national historic register got the plaque to prove it mansion) my family were the 3rd owners in its 100+ year history) I've dined with old money - got yelled at by Jay Rockefeller (I didn't see things his way either lol) and hung out with people in the hollars of the Appalachian mountains.   I've been broke quite a few times and I've had a net worth far above zero...My life experiences will allow me a different perspective than someone who's only worked minimum wage job and lived in an tenement all their lives.  I'm not going to say what that person "sees" isn't valid. 

It's just that my upbringing and  life experiences won't frame what they see in the same way.  That's what makes something, as you say, imperceptible...

Our thoughts shape our lives our living shapes our reality.

 

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Mel

Life experience should be immaterial when it comes to interpreting some images and perceiving some things.

You KNOW when someone is trying to clown on you or make a fool out of you.

If I give a speech at an event and I see it on televison or in the news paper the next day and from a 2 hour long speech the ONLY image they managed to capture of me is one where my eyes are squinted up and my finger is in my ear where I may have briefly dug in my ear subconsciously....then you know it's a hit job.

Like we talk about intuition.....some things you intuitively know.

Human beings and especially Black human beings usually have a special gift that allows us to not only look at the action but the INTENT BEHIND the action.

We intuitively know that Time could have used a much better looking, more natural, and more pleasant (less shocking) looking picture of Viola.

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1 hour ago, Pioneer1 said:


Life experience should be immaterial when it comes to interpreting some images and perceiving some things.

But it isn't.  or you'd be a clean slate with no perspective.

You only know something is offensive to you based on life experience.  For example, when flying to Dubai, I wouldn't offer my left hand to any passenger unless I'd want to offend them.

Or, you didn't know you were a human male as an infant or even a toddler .  You began to have experiences, such as seeing similar beings that forced you to realize you weren't unique, you probably identified with those who looked like you, young or older and you began to imitate them.  Then your experiences shaped your life as a  boy and you grew into a man. 

Life experiences and instructions are how we develop our perspective, a point of view.  You can be intuitive as in building on what you already know; but intuition is knowing without the benefit of experience, facts or (gasp) proof on a subject.

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I think conceptually. So even thingsi haven't experienced I can discuss. I may get it wrong but I can see other ways. It's  an interesting dynamic Mel and Cynique see your point. Or at least can accept that it is valid for you even though they don't agree. It's as if your viewpoint stops you from considering that another viewpoint is valid. 

This is rhe difference between a masculine and feminine approach in my mind.

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I agree with Mel.  And i  disagree that we always know when somebody is trying to "clown" us, or do all African Americans instinctively know the back story about situations.  Sometimes things are very nuanced and subtle and not everybody perceives the intent of words or images Or if someone is a paranoid, super-sensitive person,  they see things that aren't there or misinterpret what they do see because their personality type is one that is not good at being objective.

 Because we are individuals who come from different circumstances and have different traits and tendencies, our reactions will vary but even if we  just observe, what we see can't help but make  an impression on us, and  be processed by both our conscious and subconscious minds.  The ultimate result is a person who has coped well or bad with what he has encountered in his life's journey.

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Wow Del you say I have a blind spot, but clearly, you are not understanding what I've written; which was clear.  I've understood that you do not think Trump is racist.  What I'm asking for the 3rd time is, do you think Trump, at least sometimes, behaves in a racist manner? 

While you do not think he is a racist, I'm trying to discern if you think any of his behavior could be confused with someone who is actually a racist. 

I find it interesting that you could so easily call me a sexist, but find it impossible to call Trump a racist.

@Pioneer1, they simply believe;

  • Institutionalized white male dominated racism is not part of the mix
  • The photo is not unattractive 
  • The photo no less natural that of the other photos shown
  • Any perception of undying racism is part our imaginations and can't possibly be real (not even a little)
  • This whole thing is not open for debate, as they are objectively right and we are wrong
  • We are simply less enlightened (at least on this issue)

It is a religious argument man, and probably time to let it go... 

I'm not even sure if it is worth collecting the data on the photo.  Perhaps a more fundamental question like; does the white racism adversely impact Black people today?

 

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Troy before i answer. I am going to go back and see if you asked me if I thought his behaviour coukd be seen as racist. 

On 20/05/2017 at 10:49 AM, Mel Hopkins said:

@Delano,  Ms. Davis is not a commodity in the respect that she's for sale - her work is for consumption but not her. 

 

 

Slaves were bought and sold for work. I know that yiu don'tean it this way.  However the products we are sold goes beyond yhe intrinsic value and its the perceived that we purchase. An ipod is blank space. Yet ot cost more than a flash drive. 

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1 hour ago, Troy said:

Wow Del you say I have a blind spot, but clearly, you are not understanding what I've written; which was clear.  I've understood that you do not think Trump is racist.  What I'm asking for the 3rd time is, do you think Trump, at least sometimes, behaves in a racist manner? 

While you do not think he is a racist, I'm trying to discern if you think any of his behavior could be confused with someone who is actually a racist. 

I find it interesting that you could so easily call me a sexist, but find it impossible to call Trump a racist.

 

What you are asking is Not clear. 

Do I  think he acts in a racist manner. Is not at all the same question as do other people confusedly seeing Trump as racist.

I don't need racism to define his behaviour. 

 

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Troy yiu asked the question four times. The last two are the question you asked me in your head three times. You responded that you thought he did. Trump is a narcissist a misanthrope and greedy. He uses racism as a tool. 

What behaviour do you have in mind that Trump displays racism.

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Del you are over analyzing what is a very simple question. Turn off your spidey sense and stop trying to divine what you think I mean.

Let me demonstrate the principle by answering your simple question directly:

I got my first sense of Trump's racism when he took a full page advertisement the NY Times calling for the death of the Central Park Five.  These were children from my neighborhood, who I identifed with and saw myself is potentially being in the shoes.  Trump exercised no compassion all.  He did not wait for a trail. The boys were presumed guilty and he used his financial resources to call for their execution for a crime that did not involve a murder.  

This was a time when several Black men were being murdered several times a day in the same city.

I'd grant you it is possible that Donald is not racist (as you believe), did not behave in a racist manner, and was only seeking justice for a young white woman.  Again I'll willing to accept it is possible, but I think it is not very likely.  

But I'm not as enlightened as you are ;)

central-park-five-death.jpg

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Yes, Trump absolutely uses racism as a tool and I assume must, therefore, behave in a racist manner in order to do so.

Does it really matter to the victim if the victimizer is an actual racist or simply using racism as a tool? 

If there is a difference, I would say the person using racism as a tool is worse, because they can not claim ignorance or stupidity as an excuse for behaving in a racist manner.

Mel, Del (anyone) even given the Central Park Five example I gave, do you really believe that race did not play a role in Trump's reaction?  I can give more examples but if this one does not sway you in any way I'm sure there is nothing I can say will get you to consider the possibility that Trump is racist.

Perhaps that is why so many Black people voted for Trump, they do not see him as a racist.

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58 minutes ago, Troy said:

If there is a difference, I would say the person using racism as a tool is worse, because they can not claim ignorance or stupidity as an excuse for behaving in a racist manner.



Yes, here we are in agreement. Those Fools are easy to spot.    Most of the GOP use racism tools to achieve their goals.  45*s their leader and his racist bag tricks included but not limited to the birther movement (black president is illegitimate) , central park 5 (black thugs attack white pure woman), housing discrimination (blacks bring down the value of the neighborhood) - and it continued to grow until he founded his movement of hate.  

As you see, he outperformed the GOP religious right leaders in the primaries because he threw in blacks are despicable and ruining this country.    He assured his voters,he would remove all that's not white from the land and make America great again...

I wouldn't be surprised if his own presidential campaign resurfaced all those past dastardly deeds to his followers so they would believe he was truly one of them... 

We often forget not everything that hits the airwaves is for our consumption. We have a meme -dog whistle politics so we have to ask ourselves. Who is the intended target for the message.

45* has been trying to become president for a while - so this time he ran a campaign that appealed to the most deplorable beings in this country.  The blacks who voted for him are the same blacks who wallow in self-hate.  

Having said all that, @Troy, No I won't say 45* has to act in a racist manner to execute his racist campaign of hate... Too many people play roles to achieve their goals.  It would be naive of me to put anyone in a box.  That's dangerous. "Every mark and every play of any con game is different. You have to memorize the elements of con."  Any hustler knows you got to play people how they present - to decide they're one thing or another is to get played.

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IMO, racism comes in  degrees and, in its benign form, is wide spread. I tend to believe all white people are racist but they are not rabid ones.   Pleasant, civil, white people who think all blacks look alike are racists.  Ones who think all blacks have rhythm  or are good athletes are racist..  Ones who want to touch your hair are racist.  Ones who tread lightly around blacks because they don't want to appear racist, are racist. These racist types mean no harm. They  know racism is wrong and choose  not  to practice it if nothing is to be gained by doing so. And this could apply to mixed couples.  A white woman who has a bi-racial daughter is racist when she looks upon her child's  nappy hair as an anomaly she has to try and tame. ;)

I think Donald Trump was born a racist because he was a child of privilege and wealth, circumstances that go hand and hand with racism and he is well qualified to use racism as a tool.  i even think, Bernie Sanders is racist.  He is paternalistic and patronizing and thought he knew what was best for blacks.  Hillary Clinton, too, but she is shrewd enough to keep her racism in check. 

Black people can't be racists but they can be prejudiced and when it comes to white folks, they harbor many prejudices about them..   

Everybody is bigoted to some degree.  But, as we all know, not everybody can empower their biases. 

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I completely agree with everything written in the two posts

I thought I was gonna have to go to crawling Facebook to find people who agreed with me without reservation, who did not disrupt my tender sensibilities, validated my world view :D

No, Trump is not a Hitler or Charlie Manson magnitude racist, but he would have probably enjoyed abusing and raping any slaves were he alive 150 years ago

Sure we all lie somewhere on the bigot and prejudice spectrums.  These characteristics in some small degree are necessary for survival. Too much however and your world is a less happy place.

 

 

 

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7 hours ago, Troy said:

Del you are over analyzing what is a very simple question. Turn off your spidey sense and stop trying to divine what you think I mean.

Let me demonstrate the principle by answering your simple question directly:

I got my first sense of Trump's racism when he took a full page advertisement the NY Times calling for the death of the Central Park Five.  These were children from my neighborhood, who I identifed with and saw myself is potentially being in the shoes.  Trump exercised no compassion all.  He did not wait for a trail. The boys were presumed guilty and he used his financial resources to call for their execution for a crime that did not involve a murder.  

This was a time when several Black men were being murdered several times a day in the same city.

I'd grant you it is possible that Donald is not racist (as you believe), did not behave in a racist manner, and was only seeking justice for a young white woman.  Again I'll willing to accept it is possible, but I think it is not very likely.  

But I'm not as enlightened as you are ;)

central-park-five-death.jpg

Trioneer you are now telling me how to think. I'lltrad the rest of your post later.

5 hours ago, Mel Hopkins said:

YEP!!! Nailed it...

 

The reason i coukd see Trump as President is because he is PT Barnum. He know what people want to hear. He has no ideology other than grab as much ___ as possible before you go. 

I'll be nack on a day on this topic. 

@Troy

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Troy Donald Trump is about putting his name on the papers. He doesn't care about the kids or the victim. He Is an OPPORTUNIST. He has no ideology othwe than winning points against people who he feels aren't on his team. He thinks people are great until they disagree with him.

I believe in self determination. So when women say what other women can and can not do. They are enemies of  feminism and are more dangerous than sexist men. Yiu and Pioneer have devolved the discussion into not just being right.  But we have to see it yiur way. You are even telling me to stop thinking so much.

Hey Troy I am a thinker. And believe people should be free to choose. Even if they are misinformed. So either I am lazy or believe that my path is mine to walk as i see fit. And i feel the same way except towards ignorance masquerading as wisdom. 

Mel I  would say selfish People voted for Trump. Ronald Reagan made it cool to be unfeeling. 

Cynique if they mean no harm they are prejudiced or prejudging.

Faces at the Bottom of the Well by Derek Bell. Is an interesting take on racism in America. Its different in different parts of the world. 

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Prejudicing limits the projectors experience. And diminishes the projection.  The need not be linked. 

Let's say I have a preference for certain types of individuals. That is fine to express in my personal life. However if I make economic decisions and that excludes people for arbitrary or non merit reasons, then i am harming others. 

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I didn't say racism and prejudiceness were the same.  Had i thought that i wouldn't have applied one term to whites, and the other one to blacks. But I certainly don't think prejudiceness is harmless. 

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I didn't say they were what I was trying to say was the prejudgement is first. And the potential harm is potentially second. So You could have Prejudice that harms no one. But Racism has the object of the racism. 

If you have a coworker that hates Black people. But this doesn't manifest in their behaviour. They are prejudicied. For me Racism requires a dminishment of the object. The subject need not be conscious of their prejudicied but it has to influence their behavior. Much like the negative comments about Viola Davis's appearance.

12 hours ago, Troy said:

Del you are over analyzing what is a very simple question. Turn off your spidey sense and stop trying to divine what you think I mean.

 

But I'm not as enlightened as you are ;)

 

No Troy I am darker. Insert the appropriate emoticon.

 

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