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Pioneer1

What's Wrong With This Picture?

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@TroyWe're using two different examples.. You are talking about visiting different countries where American (black) men are transient. I'm referring to intimacy of relationships that grow into marriage and raising up families together here in America. 

The number of American households with white husbands and black wives have been continually on the rise since the 80s... when I went to the museum I was astounded by the amount of families with white men and black women.

So to help you understand my point, it seems that black men have embraced the caricature image of black women; while white men are growing families with  black women, of all shades, who may or may not look like that...Most of these men are of  means  (wealthy) while others just have a net worth that exceeds that of a black households even if the man only has a high school degree. (I make this reference to indicate because they can choose anyone in money-obsessed America)  Some of the black women are of means, as well, but have tired of  waiting for some black men to "shake it off" . 

Those women took their wealth and heritage elsewhere..(For some reason, Chaz Ebert and Serena just popped into mind). These white men aren't transient, they have extended /(returned) their roots into Africa via Black women have the mtDNA that traces back to Africa. Only she can pass it to her offspring (male & female).  So maybe it's a biological drive that causes these white men to see darkskinned black women differently.  [Who knows.  I like @Delano   question on sexuality because it forces you to think about the drivers of the species]

From my perspective, this speaks to the mental effects of racism and how the victor will divide and conquer to continue their legacy by any means necessary. During slavery in America and Europe this was a huge practice.  Some offspring were legitimate heirs to nobility others were just used to create offspring... Today the families are joining legally and leaving a different legacy... I live in the south now, and I see these families all the time. 

Heck, my twin daughters from my ex-husband are French-German yet, they carry my East African mtDNA and will pass it on...

 If Prince Harry (6th in-line to the throne) marries Meghan Markle - his ascendants will have created an ancestral tie to the Motherland through Meghan - her mother is of African "ascent"..(that's how the British royalty speak of their heritage - one ascends not descend.)

But I digress, white people use racism to cloud the mind because they play long game. Just imagine having the forethought to make sure your family line has ancestral claim to the Motherland ...

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Well, the second picture is a dreary affair, one big dark brown blur; a dress that is the same color as she is and lips muted out of prominence.  She  appears tough and  masculine  with her afro butch haircut and thick eyebrows; not a sista that a white person would want to mess with. A strong black woman. She even looks like she's gonna put her hand on her hip.and her smile is challenging.  The only thing feminizing her is the inexplicably unnecessary display of cleavage. To me, the main difference between the 2 pictures is that she looks neater and more composed in the second one.  ELLE Magazine is a French publication, so i guess that's how they imagine African American women want to come across: hard and no-nonsense. 

I do agree that, as an actress, it's acceptable for Viola to embody different personas and  i am, personally, tired of discussing  the subject because it's all about opinion and perception and not fact.  Viola is "gonna do what she do" And TIME magazine is gonna "do what dey do", and "neer the twain shall meet". 

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What is fascinating is the entire discussion centers around image or mostly. She had become a symbol and has cease to be a person. What is being said is an externalisation of internal prejudices, opinions and beliefs. That are being discussed as though they could be objective truths. It's like a Slave Auction of Black Women. Along the Black Mail Female divide. She means whatever you believe she means. But don't think you are right. Since this is an intellectualised conversation about belief. I am indifferent to the picture. Or it doesn't have the same weight or implied meaning. 

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@Cynique, I may have missed it, but did you actually answer the question?  Which photo looks more natural?

@Delano, Viola is a commodity, but I would I still think she is one of the most brilliant actresses working today.  Yes, this conversation is all about image, perception, and I'd add racism.  But again, Del you seem to want to make the about Viola--I could find bazillion photos of other women and make the same point. I can even find a photo of a guy and make the same point. Do you understand what I'm saying?

Lebron_james_King_kong_photo.jpg

The culture is so aligned against us, we've stopped even noticing, or we make excuses for it. 

I can understand why you are indifferent to the photo, I would have been indifferent to it or completely unaware of it unless Pioneer posted it.  But to behave as if the photo of Viola, Lebron, or even that stupid book about Washington's slaves scurrying about to make a cake without sugar, is not racist is naive.

In some quarters failing to recognize racism, or racists, can lead to really bad outcomes. The election of 45 comes to mind.

@Mel Hopkins I'm afraid I did not communicate my point very well because it looks like you missed it. But in general, in a white racist culture white men exercise a lot of power over Black women.  Sometimes the use of the power escapes Black women and this can be infuriating to brothers...

 

 

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My not ageeing with you does not make me unaware if racism. Your statement is worthy of Pioneer. You are exporting your views to people that dont share them. And you wonder why they cant see the racism. Mel and Cynique don't see it. So in this context it doesn't exist to them. Which is something you can neither see nor accept.

Troy you may be missing my point. You are focused on the racial aspect. If you dont see or feel racism does it exist for you. It's  a very subtle point.  It's a variation on if a tree falls in the forest and noone hears it does it make a sound. The answer is no. A person needs to be conscious of the sound.

 

Substituting another Black person doesn't change the focus to something other than race. At least not a nthe example you have chosen.

 

 

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@TroyWell, "natural" is sort of an ambiguous term.  In the first picture, to me, Viola looks excited about something and that's a natural state. Her hair is not in its natural state, although its style is a traditional  one that African American women have  adopted over  many years.                                                                                                                  

There is no such thing as natural make-up; that's an oxymoron. So, technically,  the words "make-up" and "natural" are antonyms.   Red  is not the natural color of any woman's lips and lipstick of that color can look garish on dark skinned black women as well as sallow skinned white ones.  

In the second picture, Viola's hair is natural  but it has been trimmed and groomed to look neat instead of wild or wiry so it is not untouched.  She is wearing lipstick, mascara, blush and eyebrow pencil, all of which are flattering to her complexion but she is, nonetheless, made-up, and not in her pristine natural state. As far as the color of her outfit,  calling it an "earth-tone" is the vernacular of  the fashion industry.  Its color is dull brown and does nothing for her.  

My answer to your vague question is that Viola looks "better" in the second picture because she has been put together better.   She comes out of so many bags, we have to ask "will the real Viola Davis please stand up" so we can decide how she appears when she considers herself in a natural mode. 

Are magazine covers an arena for racism or are they insensitive depictions of people by those who don't realize they are insulting to blacks or other minorities. If they are deliberately racist then people are free to speak out about this and even demand an apology. In regard to the cover of Lebron James, he's apparently insensitive, too, or  such a dumb jock that he doesn't know he's being substituted for the giant gorilla King Kong!

I guess for me,racism is such a given in this country  that It becomes an afterthought. it is also a label  that's too convenient  to adopt in lieu of giving an in depth  argument about a subject.

Del makes some good points about racism in regard to this discussion

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So a woman has to be attractive. Is that the only state she can exhibit. 

Perhaps she should be Barbie. 

Are you purchasing her? Is she for sale or even rent. 

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LOL Is that directed at me?  If so, the answers is: it makes me no difference whether a woman is attractive or not.  That's her problem not mine.  Presumably a plain but dynamic, compelling woman is as impressive as a beautiful one.  But as you know or may not know, women do vet other women when the occasion arises.

And, no, i am not purchasing a Viola doll or any other toy.  i don't roll with being a groupie of celebrities.  i just challenge arguments that make a lot of assumptions and present opinions as facts.   

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I but she is a product. And her currency or value is being debated. 

No it is not directed at you specifically. The conversation feels like a slave auction. 

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On 5/18/2017 at 10:35 AM, Delano said:

She is a commidity. Troy and Pioneer wouldn't buy her, Cynique and Mel would. 

@Delano,  Ms. Davis is not a commodity in the respect that she's for sale - her work is for consumption but not her. 

What's for sale is this issue of "Time" magazine.  The magazine cover dictates newsstand sales. 

What's in question is whether or not the photograph of Ms. Davis and Ms Davis's popularity will sell copies. 

Would I pick up this issue if I saw it on the stand?  Yes I would.  I'd want to know why Ms. Davis is so happy and what's next in her career.  

So in that respect, yes I'd buy.

 

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Mel

The amount of Black women with White man is increasing in the United States for the same reasons the amount of ASIAN WOMEN with White men are increasing.....most of the men with money and willing to settle down to be husbands today are primarily White men.

Historically in the United States White men held power and money but this situation was severely reversing itself in the 60s and 70s because of 2 main reasons:

1. Women's liberation which allowed women to become independant, work for a decent wage/salary, and make their OWN money.


2. The Civil Rights movement along with the Black Power movement which brought better jobs and better living conditions to both Black men AND women....but also caused many newly independant White women to start eyeing Black men with good jobs as potential mates.


When White women started making their own money....they started leaving White men in droves, so the powers that be had to figure out a way to give White males thier "edge" back.

They began to de-industrialize the inner cities and take the jobs away from Black men so they wouldn't be considered so much of a "competition" and started jobs that demanded higher and higher education for the more "high tech" careers.

Millions of White men lost these jobs as well and THEIR marriages also broke up and fell apart but poor White men were more likely to use violence and domestic abuse to keep control over their wives and girlfriends to keep them from leaving.
Besides this, there were enough smart "brainy" and "nerdy" White men who could go to school and get these good jobs and THESE are the ones you see primarily scoring wives among Black and Asian women today.

While there are some exceptions and most men will try to make the "family life" work...........
The fact is the average man Black OR White is really too poor to "afford" a wife;  primarily it's these nerds and "brains" you mostly see who are married to these women of all races and pushing strollers around playing Mr. Dad.

Look at most of them.
Most of them are nerdy, wiry, and goofy....but they have good jobs and make good money and are usually "faithful".


I've never experienced an "overseer" so I may be to liberal in my use of the definition -but this feels like you believe in doing the work of those who seek to oppress.
What people choose to wear is their choice.


That's not necessarily true.
Especially if subliminal messages are being aimed at them to influence them.

Look at how so many Black youth are "choosing" to wear they pants baggy and sagging down past thier underwear.
If it's a "choice" totally up to them.....why weren't men wearing their pants that way 50 years ago?

If it's a choice, why do most women wear make up and most men do not?

It's more than a personal choice, it's subliminal messaging and marketing along with peer pressure.




If someone chooses to make a caricature of someone's style - that ignorance is THEIRS and theirs alone.. not the person wearing the style.

I'm glad those young women are ignorant (as in unaware) of the caricature of Aunt Jemina - at least they aren't tainted by self-hate and it won't take up room in their head.


Either that...or their ignorance makes them easier to manipulate since their enemies don't have to waste time coming up with NEW ideas to disgrace them.....just keep repeating the same old ones every other generation because they won't recognize the old tricks.

God gave us a memory for a REASON.

When you don't know your past, you can't strategize for the present let alone the future.

Remember the old saying......
Those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it.






Del

Why does she have to be attractive or not atttactive.

Because it's a PICTURE on the cover of a MAGAZINE.

Attractive looks sell magazines.
Attractive voices sell music.
Attractive smells selll fragrances.

This is just common sense.

The only time someone wants to look at an unattractive picture is in ridicule or to make themselves feel better about how THEY look.



Troy


We have also heard the rap artists explain away and justify depicting Black women in an objectified, misogynistic manner. I always viewed this as a racist treatment of our people, but I was always an outlier on this issue.

Ofcourse it's racist.
Especially when you have White executives who purposely exclude positive Black rappers and sign on the most negative demeaning embrarassment they can find with little or no talent.

I'm the type of person who always looks for a MOTIVE in anything someone does.
When you examine and speculate on the MOTIVE, then seemingly "senseless" behavior becomes much clearer and makes much more sense.

Just like a White magazine will take an unflattering picture of a Black woman when there are much better ones......

When a White executive at a record label takes an untalented rapper who raps about negativity and disrespecting women and sign him and promotes him while excluding one who is clearly talented and raps about positive experiences......


You'll have to ASSUME it's for racist purposes in order to disrespect, discredit, and humiliate.

But like I said earlier....our people have to be "sharp" enough to recognize this.
If not, they'll continue to be ridiculed and taken advantage of.

 

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On 5/18/2017 at 6:22 PM, Troy said:

I'm afraid I did not communicate my point very well because it looks like you missed it. But in general, in a white racist culture white men exercise a lot of power over Black women.  Sometimes the use of the power escapes Black women and this can be infuriating to brothers...

@Troy Well that makes two of us.  It seems my point was missed as well.

Take Two 

Black women have a different relationship with white men  - one black men aren't privy to.  It's the main reason black women made the best spies during the civil war.

Black women know very well what racism looks like. We weren't absent for the last 600 years, we've been on the front lines fighting it at every turn - sometimes alone.  
The fact that some black men believe they have to inform black women of racism and are infuriated when we don't believe them represents a level of arrogance that is mind-blowing.  

We (black women) don't need black men tapping us on the shoulder, saying, "dude is being racist"  If anything, black women need black men to speak up on their behalf about economic oppression, institutional racism and injustice that is unique to black women.   We need black men to lend a hand to right the table when, for example, black women are paid less money than white men, black men and white women when doing the same job  and are better educated with more degrees and experience. 

It's not hard to recognize what racism looks like when Black women are the first to say "Follow me" Underground Railroad", I'm not giving up my seat"  Our Lives Matter"  while continuously chip away at the bricks and mortar of institutional racism while battling daily doses of sexism with the other.  Seriously what could a black man notice and inform a black women about who lives with a daily double dose of oppression?

Further, black women have been style trendsetters since we arrived in the Americas... today we call it cultural appropriation when white women take our styles ...but they do copy us to appeal to white men and black celebrities.

Therefore making a caricature of a black women's features doesn't deny  black women opportunities.  It's childish but it's harmless trolling that targets black men like dudes playing the dozens trading mama jokes.    But instead of black men lobbing a few of their own, they instead return to black women and say,

"white men say black women are ugly, don't you agree?"    I, for one, say, "no." 

And It's not because I'm oblivious to racial taunts.  it simply doesn't resonate with me.  

What some black men finds 'racist" concerning black women is personal. And with that Time magazine cover it appears as if it hit its intended mark.

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Very interesting.  @Delano , if a tree falls in the forest it still makes a sound--even if no one is there to hear it. Similarly, if a racist behaves in a racist manner, but one can't or chosen not to perceive it as such does not make the racist any less racist.  Here is a question for you:  Is Trump racist?

To your way of thinking Del, if you are not in the forest to hear the tree falling it does not make a sound and therefore if you choose not to see racism it does not exist. Does that sum it up?  Is racism purely subjective, in the eye of the beholder?

@Cynique, you still did not answer my simple question: Which photo looks more natural? Interestingly you responded to which one looks "better." Perhaps that was a Freudian slip.  

You and Del seem to be fixated on her relative attractiveness.  I'm not concerned with that and have not raised the issue of her beauty.  Pioneer has raised this issue her attractiveness, but while we agree on the "subtle racism" in play here, we do see things a little differently.

@Mel Hopkins , I don't disagree much of what you wrote in your past post. Here is a simple question for you (or anyone of course); is the photo of Lebron James, which Cynique accurately described as "being substituted for the giant gorilla King Kong," even a little racist in your view?  Why or why not? 

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Troy Everything is subjective. Otherwise you and Pioneer wouldn't disagree on points you both feel are clear or common sense. 

Think about it unless you perceive racism it doesn't exist for you. In your mind this is ridiculous. But there us an implication which i will overtly state. My perception does not change the global reality on my perception. And perception is reality. That's obvious to anyone that reading the post in this thread. Excluding your own. I have dropped a few bread crumbs. Cynique attempted to draw yiur attention to this with the simple statement. Del has made some good points. However I don't think this sparked any fresh inquiry along ybe lines of my inflammatory statements. The flame illuminated little. Two final statements. I could be overestimating may contribution to this argumemt. Whenever I agree with Pioneer I know I have missed something. 

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2 hours ago, Troy said:

Here is a simple question for you (or anyone of course); is the photo of Lebron James, which Cynique accurately described as "being substituted for the giant gorilla King Kong," even a little racist in your view?  Why or why not? 

See @Troy, it's not simple for me... This goes to what @Delano said " Think about it unless you perceive racism it doesn't exist for you. In your mind this is ridiculous. " ... Lebron looks like a warrior very much in the spirit of Spartacus 94e85fa3868b38c1869e2fe36dcbf167.jpg My father was a warrior - so when I see black men I see warriors.  This cover made me sad, though, because I see protection in the warrior spirit but I don't see him protecting someone that looks like me... and the fact that model is carefree and dancing means she feels very much protected and safe to just be her playful self...

This is what I mean about how imagery reflects our beliefs.... You'd probably never write that story from that photo but that's how it affects me.  

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@Delano, Thumper used to say "every closed eye ain't sleep."  I saw many of your bread crumbs but chose not to run with them.  In much the same was you avoided my question asking you if you thought Trump was racist.  

God forbid someone around here provides a simple yes or no response to a direct question :o 

Del, do you think Trump is a racist?

I chose, for example, not to pick up some of your breadcrumbs; like the comment of me sounding like Pioneer--that one cut deep Bruh (sorry Pioneer ;)). It is a tactic you like, as you used it in your last post--again I chose not to run with it.  All barbs aside  I have no problem agreeing with Pioneer from time to time.  On this particular issue though we agree for slightly different reasons.

Of course our perceptions on these photos are purely subjective.  There is no "right" or "wrong" answer here. I never wrote or suggested the anyone else here is "wrong" or that I'm right.  Obviously, I think I'm right, but I also recognize that I can be wrong which is the only reason I'm even entertaining alternative opinions. 

For example, Cynique mentioned challenging religious people on their views.  I never do this because people who follow a religion, by definition, are not open to alternative perspectives.  I assume all of you open to alternative opinions, otherwise, why bother reading the opinions of people whose opinions differ, often strongly, from own? 

So @Mel Hopkins  I can only assume that you see no racism in the way that LeBron is portrayed (assuming because you did not respond to my question).

I don't view Lebron as my protector.  If anything I see him as my kid, a big rich one, but someone junior to me as a son is to a father.  So when I see the photo I see my kid being ridiculed in a very slick racist manner.  In fact, LeBron could have used some protection himself, but on a different level.

When I see that photo of Dijomon Hinsou (sp?)   I'm just reminded of the story, from where the image was taken, of how a handful of white boys defeated a massive army of Black Africans... (the Hinsou character was thrown down a hole, and he was an emissary, whose role was not respected)

But again this is from the perspective of a Black man raised in a white racist society and feed to countless stories a Black people being defeated by white on every level.  

Look, I know almost no one looks at the images we are fed this deeply and how it adversely impacts us.  This is why @Pioneer1pointing out Viola resonated with me I knew exactly where he was coming from--even though we may disagree on some of the particulars.  Our perspective might sound alien, but that is because Black male perspectives are ignored suppressed even.

We can choose to ignore racism, or explain it away, and suffer the consequences.  

I'd prefer that we recognize it for what it is and deal with it.

 

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15 minutes ago, Troy said:

I can only assume that you see no racism in the way that LeBron is portrayed (assuming because you did not respond to my question)

racism:

  •  

Definition of racism

  1. 1 :  a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race

  2. 2a :  a doctrine or political program based on the assumption of racism and designed to execute its principlesb :  a political or social system founded on racism

  3. 3 :  racial prejudice or discrimination

Nope. This photo doesn't fit the definition.

24 minutes ago, Troy said:

When I see that photo of Dijomon Hinsou (sp?)   I'm just reminded of the story, from where the image was taken, of how a handful of white boys defeated a massive army of Black Africans... (the Hinsou character was thrown down a hole, and he was an emissary, whose role was not respected)

Erm @Troy... this photo  is  Peter Mensah who plays Oenomaus, a top notch gladiator and teacher of Spartacus,  in the Starz series  "Spartacus"... Spartacus is  a story inspired by  a small group of slaves fought against oppression of oligarchy,  overthrowing  a large roman army... 

Maybe there's some truth to how blinding racism can be...:P

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@Mel Hopkins, I'm surprised you would use this approach to answer the question I posed.  

I believe you understood my question.  I also believe you know I know what the word means.  My use of the word in this context was appropriate given a broader and perhaps more colloquial use of the term  As in the results of an action taken by a person who is a racist is "racist."  A broader description of  #2 of the definition you provided would include in my view the media's representation of our people; which is part of our "social system."

Here is a new question for you (anyone).  Do you believe that the media (news, entertainment, etc) is capable of being racist?

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2 minutes ago, Troy said:

@Mel Hopkins, I'm surprised you would use this approach to answer the question I posed.  

I believe you understood my question.  I also believe you know I know what the word means.  My use of the word in this context was appropriate given a broader and perhaps more colloquial use of the term  As in the results of an action taken by a person who is a racist is "racist."  A broader description of  #2 of the definition you provided would include in my view the media's representation of our people; which is part of our "social system."

Here is a new question for you (anyone).  Do you believe that the media (news, entertainment, etc) is capable of being racist?

@Troy, I'm surprised that you can't believe you're not the arbiter of all things racist. LOL! 

This is why there's no yes or no answers to subjective questions such as racism.  From my perspective the LeBron picture IS NOT racist even by your definition. Someone else could see this picture and demand apology ...but me? meh.  I stated what's disconcerting to me about the photo - and that may amount to nothing more than jealousy on my part. 

 

"Here is a new question for you (anyone).  Do you believe that the media (news, entertainment, etc) is capable of being racist?"

Nope... but I believe General Managers, News director, exec producers, reporters and in anyone in the position to make editorial decisions can be.

Many make decisions where the true definition of racism comes into play - but so far, I think I'm the only one who has actually spoken out against one of the most egregious decisions of late.

 What I'm referring to are the state-sanctioned executions and maiming of black men shown on our local, cable & network nightly news.   I've written to my local stations, tweeted to cable stations about their decisions to show state-sanctioned murders in heavy rotations - desensitizing the viewing public to black murders...

This is a double standard (racist act) because they won't show the murders of white people on television.  When that truck driver mowed down people on that bridge in France on Bastille day and the casualties and dead were strewn along the streets every American Cable station made the decision not to show the carnage - their reasoning was due to young viewers watching...To me that sent the message Black dead bodies aren't of concern or disturbing because they're just "blacks" ... Why no consideration for black men being shot in the street, tasered or run down by cars? Because in their ears ...black executions are entertaining as public hangings back in the jim crow south.

Have you written to your local station, network or cable station about this type of bias? Have you "noticed"?

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Actually, I had noticed Mel, and I even wrote about the fact on is a forum.

If General Managers, News director, exec producers, and reporters are racist.  Their product will be racist.  But we'll just have to agree to disagree on this point.

Mel I simply do not consume news on TV and have not for decades.  So I have less than zero motivation to write them.

Besides the majority of Americans now consume news on social media, and you already know how I feel about social media.  

I consume my news from newspapers, magazines, and websites. I do comment on websites. I never write a newspaper or magazine; I just stop subscribing.

My weapon of choice, as you might image, is the book. 

Of course in the infinite scheme of things this one photo of Viola is inconsequential.

However, the photo is reflective of a country whose culture has been hostile to Black people since it's inception.  The racism here is so entrenched many white people fail to comprehend how they benefit and sadly many Blacks fail to understand how they have been harmed.

Indeed many of us buy wholeheartedly into the institutions and structures that are doing us harm.  Billy Dee can sell us malt liquor to drink, NWA can sell us the gangsta mentality, books written for Black children attempt to completely whitewash the horrors of slavery, our most successful athletes can be depicted in ways the perpetuate the Black brute stereotype, and even the talented Viola Davis can be displayed in a manner that invokes black sambo imagery.

But this will never change because in a white racist culture you 'll never go broke being racist, it may even land you in the white house.  

Oh, my bad, I'm apparently the only one who believes Trump is indeed racist...

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44 minutes ago, Troy said:

Besides the majority of Americans now consume news on social media,

@Troy Unfortunately, the statistics don't support your  assumption.

Majority of Americans are still glued to the television including black Americans to get their news  .  So it's important to continue to remind television execs that it's not cool to show black death on television for any amount of revenue.  Our youth should not be subjected to such a high disregard for  black lives.    

Your response is confusing to me - you want me to be all up in arms about your perspective of beauty or athleticism and how it's pictured but this is how you respond to something you know exist and can mentally harm us..

 

"Mel I simply do not consume news on TV and have not for decades.  So I have less than zero motivation to write them."

 

I won't watch when television news shows graphic images of murder - but they will hear from me every time they broadcast black murder.   Gratuitous violence at the cost of black lives is not cool - whether I'm a consumer of television news or not.  If I hear about it - I'm writing.

As for 45, I didn't vote for him... I voted for Hillary in the last election.  I couldn't care less if he's a racist - he's not qualified to be in the highest office of the land.

 



 

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7 hours ago, Troy said:

you still did not answer my simple question: Which photo looks more natural? Interestingly you responded to which one looks "better." Perhaps that was a Freudian slip.  

i think it's becoming obvious that in this entire debate, semantics are blurring, rather than clarifying responses and the message each one of us is attempting to convey is compromised by the disparities between one person's definition of a word as opposed to the other person's definition of the same word. So there is no common ground.

This would seem to be the case when i responded to your request for which of the 2 posted pictures of Viola Davis looked more "natural".   My idea of natural had to do with the first dictionary definition listed below and that is what my answer to your question reflected. Your definition of natural is more aligned with the 2nd dictionary definition of natural and this is your reference for saying i did not answer your "simple" question.   

These 2 definitions are the reason why i referred to "natural' as being ambiguous and i settled on using the word "better" in my response and i explained my reason for answering the way i did.  With respect to both definitions, i can't give you an either/or answer because both pictures are natural on some level and unnatural on another.  So, you 'll just have to abandon your role of being an arbitrator and settle for the rely i gave. :D

                                                                                  NATURAL

1.  existing in or caused by nature; not made or caused by humankind.
2.  of or in agreement with the character or makeup of, or circumstances surrounding, someone or something.
 
As for racism, i, for instance,  have mixed emotions about SNL continuing to give :Leslie Jones a forum for portraying an overbearing, sex-crazed, loud black woman. For me, this irritation was exacerbated  when she appeared on the show  a couple of weeks ago, doing this routine.  The audience who is practically all white love her antics and laugh loudly not with, but at her.  
 
But this character seems to come natural to Leslie and TIME magazine thinks her character is worthy enough to earn Leslie a place on the list of the 100 most influential famous people,  We all know people who act like the type of sista that Leslie lampoons so we have to ask  that since it is an authentic depiction, should we allow ourselves to be manipulated into defending or condemning SNL's enabling Leslie to glorify this type of black woman.  SNL mercilessly skewers  Trump and other political or pop culture celebrities, who make headlines in the news, so they don't really discriminate.  i find Leslie's buffoonery offensive and  over the top,  It could  be said, however, that she pushes the envelop and challenges blacks to be able to take a joke. Laugh to keep from crying
 
BTW, there was a lot of protest about the cover of Lebron James  recreating  King Kong abducting a white blond blue-eyed damsel in distress, and i think rightfully so. But racism is just so pervasive and the white powers that be so in control. that you could make a living pointing out daily examples of it, as some black leaders do, thanks to malicious white corporate types providing them with grist for their mills.
 
 
 
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Troy I am thinker. I will thoroughly explain racism from my perspective. Although I had done so in a previous post. 

I forgot the Trump question. Trump is not a racist he is an opportunist and misanthrope. His biographer says Trump has no philosophy. Its just grab as much ___ as you can. He did a photo op with Kanye West and Black Educators. With a rather large smile. Donald Trump is for Donald Trump. Why does Melania choose not to stay in one of the most prestigious pieces of real estate.  She would rather be in New York.

Your TV comment seems to mirror my statement about racism not being seen. In this case you acknowledge and vote with your dollars. However this is a personal choice not part of a larger boycott. I am hesitant to point this out. Since you spend your life promoting books. However Mel point is valid. Your argument is a weak counter. However you spend a Herculean amount of effort to educate the Folks. 

There are two streams to racism. Economic and Social. For owners its a way to keep Everyone in place. Just like every other ism.  There's an intersting article that looks at Slavery as work place harrasment. Using rape of Women and Men as a control technique. Apparently Alpha Black Men were anally raped publicly. 

The overseer is meant to feel superior to the slaves.Poor Whites were made overseers. Translation your better than them but not as good as us.

Pioneer believes his world is the world. You are starting to sound more like Pioneer. 

I have a neutral position. Which allows me more freedom of thought. Or freer thinking. It's impossible to have an open mind unless you can see your beliefs and assumptions. I am also observing the style of discussion. 

I saw Leslie Jones do stand up before? SNL. You can say whatever you want in comedy. If it's not funny then it's offensive. 

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Troy it doesn't feel as though you are open to other views. Not when you say are you the only who believes Trump is racist. What does Pioneer think? 

 

Troy your statement from time to time.  Implies you are not comfortable agreeing with some of Pioneer's illogical statements that are common sense to him.

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Mel, I don't expect you to be "up in arms,"  I'm not even up in arms.

Had Pioneer not posted the photos I probably would never have seen it.  I have not cracked the pages of Time in more years than I can remember. I also want to remind you this is not about "beauty" for me.  I never used the word, all I've done is refute beauty being part of my argument.

No need to be confused, I'm not writing Time magazine, I'm not calling for a boycott of them, I'll just go back to continuing to ignore them

Again I just find it fascinating that some people see racism where other do not.  Even the unwillingness of some to recognize it when it is staring them in the face is remarkable to me.  I would never have guessed this to be the case.  I've learned a lot in the discussion.

Actually, I've been reading a lot on this subject lately but I should have been more precise. Old people watch TV for news. The majority of young America consume news online and the majority of those through social media.  The trend strongly favors a rapid growth of news consumption in this manner, and if Facebook continues to grow in dominance, they could be the number platform for the consumption of news for Americans. 

What makes Facebook's dominance so troubling is that fake news still proliferates on Facebook and their algorithm creates filter bubbles.  The end result is a population which is at best less informed and at worse, misinformed...

Now if you want to apply the "phrase up in arms" to me.  Use it in conjunction with Facebook.  I've been boycotting the platform since early March.  But I also recognize virtually no one will boycott Facebook despite tons of great reasons to do so.  People just don't care enough about anything to change any aspect of their behavior for more than a few minutes.

Think about it, (this is probably worth a separate conversation), the planet is rapidly heading to a point where it will be inhospitable to sustain humanity; and collectively we are doing NOTHING about it.  We are an interesting species...

The failure of the media to recognize Trump for the racist (or at least behaves like one, courting and earning the support KKK) con man he is, in fact, the reason he in the white house.  They failed to call a spade a spade but instead treated him as if he was a legitimate candidate, covering him extensively--just to make more money.

The failure to recognize racism is dangerous to us as Black people and virtually ensures its continuation.

Now, of course, I know racism (as Del implied) is a tool of the capitalist. I also know that any educated person knows there is only one race and humans are far more alike than we are different. But these facts mean very little to actual racist operating in a racist society.

@Cynique, OK I understand your response to my question.  I also feel some kinda way about Leslie's skits on SNL too, particularly when they pair her with that puny white boy. But SNL is starting to bore me anyway.  I'm tired of seeing Trump administration skits, They are becoming less and less funny to me.

Still SNL is a show written by mostly white men for white people.  How many years did it take for them to get Black women on the show? And when they finally got some we see how they are used...

@Delano , I just wanted to know what you thought about Trump.  I can't know what is in the man's heart, but his behavior is indistinguishable from a racist's. So it does not really matter what you or I think about his underlying motives.  His behavior speaks for itself.  Del, do you think Trump, at least sometimes, behaves in a racist manner?  Bold faced so that you don't forget it this time?

Del, my comment about being the only person who believes Trump is a racist was not meant to be taken literally.  It was a just a playful dig at you and Mel ;)

 

 

 

 

 

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5 hours ago, Troy said:

I'm not writing Time magazine, I'm not calling for a boycott of them, I'll just go back to continuing to ignore them

Again I just find it fascinating that some people see racism where other do not.  Even the unwillingness of some to recognize it when it is staring them in the face is remarkable to me.  I would never have guessed this to be the case.  I've learned a lot in the discussion.

There can be no unwillingness to "recognize" racism...You either perceive it or you don't.   There can only be an unwillingness to speak out against what one perceives as racism.  If one "sees" racism but says nothing then they're  completely ineffective in the fight against oppression.

 

When I see/experience racism, I DO something about it.   When I experienced what I believed was racial/sexist bias at my workplace - I filed a complaint against my employer...No lip service.   No ignoring it 'hoping it would go away.  I. Filed. A. Complaint.  

In an emergency - "you don't fight the smoke - you fight the fire...Using your resources and energy on the fire " prevents the house from burning down to the ground or a plane from burning up in the sky  

A subjective photo ... is smoke.  

Black men being executed in the streets for our viewing pleasure... is the fire ...

I fight fires...

Speaking of  those who don't recognize racism (or danger for that matter) when it's staring them in the face...

94% of black women voted for Hillary

15% of black men voted for Trump 

 

 

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This picture is nether wrong nor right to me. The imputedmeanung is not in the picture it is in your mind. If enough people share a hallucination we call it reality.

Hey twin you may be nicer but you aren't a welcome mat.

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@Mel Hopkins, sure there can be an "unwillingness' to see racism.  People are in denial about a great many things.  It makes it easier to get through life--especially when the thing you choose to ignore in something you can't do anything about.

Yes, I often wonder about the 6% of Black women who voted for Trump.  If would be really interesting to pick their brains about their reasoning.  I suspect most a just very conservative and voted the party line, some are probably so firmly entrenched in the white culture that a Trump vote just made sense, still others voted for him simply because they felt they would benefit financially. I suspect Omarosa is one of these ladies.

Does anyone personally know a Black woman that voted for Trump?

@Delano , based upon your reasoning everything is in one's mind, which makes a discussion or debate about anything futile doesn't it?  Still your response did not answer my question, apparently, the boldfacing alone was not enough to grab your attention:

 Del, do you think Trump, at least sometimes, behaves in a racist manner? 

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14 minutes ago, Troy said:

sure there can be an "unwillingness' to see racism.

 No  it's impossible to see what's not in their perspective... see how hard it is for you to understand that?  It's because you can't perceive it.  You are not unwilling to recognize it  - you just can't perceive it. 

As for Trump voters I want to know why 15% of black men voted for Trump.  Further I want to know why 400,000 black men electorate - didn't vote period even though they could.

20 minutes ago, Troy said:

, based upon your reasoning everything is in one's mind, which makes a discussion or debate about anything futile doesn't it?

 

Everything is in your own mind.   Your thoughts and beliefs make up your reality. 

This is why it's important to free your mind from its beliefs and engage in productive thinking so you can "see"...

Debates and discussions are important because no one can see and experience everything.  Books are very handy for this reason.

We can share experiences through our discussion and debates teach us empathy for what we can't see or have experienced.

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Mel I think we are talking about two different things.  Of course, if something is imperceptible it is not subject to one's will.  It is like saying someone has an unwillingness to see a Muon (an unstable subatomic particle).

I'm talking abut people who have the ability to perceive something but chose to ignore it or create a story to explain it away.  

I think most of the Black men who voted for Trump did so for financial reasons mostly.  What do you think?

I'm sure most of the Black men who chose not to vote were bombarded by the media Hillary is crook message and chose to opt out, that and the fact you have to get up and stand in a line was enough to stop great numbers of people from voting--not just Black men.   

I almost opted out until Cynique, without realizing it, talked some sense into me.  But I've talked to a lot of Black people who chose not to vote...

 

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Troy you have a blind spot on this topic. 

In my answer i said Trump ia not a racist. You are confusing me not answering your question , with not giving you the answer you want.

Perhaps you and Pioneer are making sexist statements. Not racial ones. So the problem is that for you and Pioneer your patriarchal mibd is oveeriding the racial one. It reminds me how some white people can't see their own racism. You and Pioneer are judging Viola to be unattractive and are attributing it to racism. You do know that Black seems ti be really gois with dominating or attempting to dominate women. 

It ia never easy when we discover our inner prejudices. 

Thanks for explaining twin. I am going to spectate fie a bit.

Del

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This entire story seems to go right down sexual lines with the women on one side, the men on the other....and Delano playing his usual role as female instigator, lol.

I'm curious as to what @CDBurns has to say about the issue.
Hadn't seen him in this neighborhood in a good while.

 

 


Troy

Well first of all, I don't know about those stats about Blacks voting for Donald Trump.
I don't know ONE Black man who told me he was voting for Trump.....not one.

But this thread illustrates the macrocosm of the Black community and how so many fail to perceive racism unless it's blatant and vulgar.

Unless they're being called a nigger or come to work and find a noose laying across their desk....everything is cool beans.

What makes it even worse, when you try to point out racism to those who aren't as perceptive they'll often turn on you and fight you over being too sensative or looking for problems where none exist.

Sometimes when you're dealing with people who aren't perceptive enough to recognize subtle racism (and I have to admit that this...in my opinion....IS very subtle), the best thing to do is wait until it IS systemic and happens so often that you now have a pattern you can point to and atleast use that as proof of your accusations.

Like drugs.
It took a lot of Black people nearly a decade to realize that drugs were being brought into the Black community on purpose and that our community was being TARGETED.
They just didn't want to believe it and didn't see a connection.

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Delano

Perhaps you and Pioneer are making sexist statements. Not racial ones. So the problem is that for you and Pioneer your patriarchal mibd is oveeriding the racial one. It reminds me how some white people can't see their own racism. You and Pioneer are judging Viola to be unattractive and are attributing it to racism.

I can't speak for Troy but......

Although I wouldn't call that particular picture of Viola "unattractive" I would say it is the LEAST attractive picture that I've seen of her so far and the fact that a White magazine skilled at photography and marketing just happened to put the LEAST attractive picture of her on the cover of their magazine is a bit suspcious to me.

 

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4 hours ago, Troy said:

 Of course, if something is imperceptible it is not subject to one's will

Exactly!!!...you either see it or you don't and it doesn't have to be a subatomic particle either...we all have different experiences therefore we are all going to perceive things differently.  

Unless we have additional tools for viewing all we can do is empathize.  I believe you do see something racist in those photos.  My not seeing it doesn't change what you see.  Your seeing it doesn't change how I see it.

I grew up in middle class family - I started school in Germany, I owned my first house at 18 years old... I negotiated my first entertainment contract before 25... I raised  my daughters  in victorian mansion  (not a mcMansion a bonifide national historic register got the plaque to prove it mansion) my family were the 3rd owners in its 100+ year history) I've dined with old money - got yelled at by Jay Rockefeller (I didn't see things his way either lol) and hung out with people in the hollars of the Appalachian mountains.   I've been broke quite a few times and I've had a net worth far above zero...My life experiences will allow me a different perspective than someone who's only worked minimum wage job and lived in an tenement all their lives.  I'm not going to say what that person "sees" isn't valid. 

It's just that my upbringing and  life experiences won't frame what they see in the same way.  That's what makes something, as you say, imperceptible...

Our thoughts shape our lives our living shapes our reality.

 

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