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Another Controversial Time Magazine or Can Black Women Catch a Break


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Troy

Now look at that.....

You started a thread DEFENDING Black women.
You were calling Time magazine to the carpet on how they were unfairly depicting Black women.

And instead of applauding you for your efforts, you ended up getting fricasseed in your own juices.

I saw it coming....
I could have stayed out, but I knew you were gonna be by yourself trying to hold it down for Black men so I felt compelled to contribute.
.....but I saw it coming.

I've seen it time and time again.
Like a woman who is abused by her no-good boyfriend but takes out her frustrations on her good male friend, cussing HIM out and calling HIM a dog as he tries to console her....

Often times the intelligent, well meaning, successful Black man is targeted for insult, ridicule, and scorn by Black women who are angry and frustrated at the behavior of the dusty foul criminal minded negroes who have ruined their lives.


Now that doesn't necessarily apply to these two ladies because I believe they're too smart to get caught up with a some dusty abusive thug.
However I DO believe that like most Black women, they are angry and frustrated in the Black man's inability to adequately provide for and protect them collectively and that's what you really hear when you read between the lines.
Infact, Mel made it a little more plain in her latest post but I was able to discern it all through out the thread.

When I realized this, I had to CATCH myself from further irritating an already raw and open wound.

 

 

Cynique and Mel

<_< Don't worry, everything's gonna be alright.

You can dry your eyes now.

Your cries have been heard, and help will be coming soon.

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

Cynique and Mel

<_< Don't worry, everything's gonna be alright.

You can dry your eyes now.

Your cries have been heard, and help will be coming soon.

 

@Pioneer1 I'm not holding my breath.  We'll be fine. Too bad in the year 2017 it's necessary for you to send such a message. At my age, i'll leave the optimism to Mel who keeps hope alive.   Thanks for your words of "encouragement".

@Delano Alvin Ailey is  worth mentioning.  He has given hundreds of black women a stage for their dancing talents which include classical ballet a field where they had not previously been show cased.  I'm not familiar with the other name you offered.  

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Contemporary Black BiographyContemporary Black BiographyThe Columbia Encyclopedia, 6th ed. 

Mitchell, Arthur

Contemporary Black Biography 
COPYRIGHT 2005 Thomson Gale
 

Arthur Mitchell

1934

Choreographer, dancer

Members of the Dance Theatre of Harlem call Arthur Mitchell the "Pied Piper of Dance." Mitchell, one of the first blacks to succeed in the field of classical ballet, founded the Dance Theatre of Harlem in 1969 in an effort to provide minority students with a chance to learn and perform classical ballet. He has been leading the troupe ever since and has presided over an extensive ballet school, worldwide tours, and performances of both classical and modern dance. Boston Globecontributor Christine Temin called Mitchell "a preacher of sorts," an artist whose "gospel is one of discipline, hard work, education, goals set and then met. His own goal, of course, was to show that blacks could dance classical ballet. He realized that aim with his Dance Theatre of Harlem, now famous for its energy, purity of style, dedicated dancers and diverse repertory."

Since its founding, Mitchell's Dance Theatre of Harlem has included a school educating hundreds of would-be dancers, as well as a group of professionalsgraduates of the schoolwho perform. The school is located in Harlem and draws many of its pupils from that struggling neighborhood. Many are on scholarship, and all are encouraged to pursue a well-rounded education. Mitchell told the Philadelphia Inquirer that his goal is to use dance "to build better human beings." He added: "The young people today, particularly minority kids and inner-city kids, they need some kind of motivation as well as compassion. We live in a very technological society. Very few people are spending time to develop the soul."

Mitchell was in a taxicab on his way to the airport in 1968 when he heard over the radio that Martin Luther King Jr. had been assassinated in Memphis. The news stunned Mitchell, and it proved a turning point in his career. He had planned to continue his work with the National Ballet Company of Brazil, which he had established two years earlier. Instead, he told the cab driver to turn around and head back into Harlem. Mitchell told the San Jose Mercury News:"After hearing of King's death, I came back to Harlem and set up a dance school in a garage. Nobody said I could do it. I started with 30 kids and two dancers, and inside of four months I had 400 kids."rs. Then we wanted to take that company of black dancers and showcase them in the city, the country, the world, to show people what black artists could do. We did that."

The founders of the Alvin Ailey and Dance Theatre of Harlem .

That's  my two. My guess is at least half the troupe are women.

@Mel Hopkins

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......see THIS is probably why people get confused about your sexuality, lol.


Nah LOL, 
much respect for the good that these 2 brothers have done for the community.
Just 2 more examples of Black men who've helped Black women.

Actually I hadn't  even heard of them before you mentioned them.
....the more you know.



Cynique

I give you Minister Farrakhan who's helped countless Black women rise up like rods and stand before the world like shining jewels......but you reject HIM like spoiled milk and call him all types of names.

But 2 gay Black men who help women dance and sing for White folks?

Oh you LOOOOVE them don't you.

But I'm not angry, I understand....((smile))

I understand why so many Black women promote the feminine Black man over the masculine one.

And because I understand, I know everything's gonna be alright.....((smile))

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@Delano  I had to delete the bulk of the citation you copied from encyclopedia.com, it was inundated with advertisements (even ads embedded in the content which you probably did not even notice.  In general, if people have to use content from another source I suggest they just excerpt from it and link to the rest.

@Pioneer1 , it is interesting that you never heard of those two guys.  You are probably right, even though you may have been joking, that the two dudes Del chose is perhaps one reason why folks confuse him as gay.  

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@Pioneer1 You're so in love with Farrakhan maybe you should have your credentials checked. You continue to aggrandize him and sing his praises but have yet  to reinforce your extravagant claims with anything other  than one puny example of the "countless" women he has uplifted to -  the level of still being under the thumb of their menfolk, including their domineering patron, Farrakhan. Accept the fact that i do not share your slavish devotion to this religious chauvinist, and dry your tears.

What did i say that would lead you to believe that i love Alvin Ailey? As opposed to you who can't gush enough adoration for Farrakhan. Accomplished, sensitive gay men who create opportunities for women are just as worthy of being credited as self-serving masculine ones who exploit women to make themselves look good.  

   

  

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@Cynique, sure I agree with you regarding their desire to appear on the cover of Time. The point I was trying to support is that Time really is not interested in uplifting Black people or women.  

@Mel Hopkins, It would not be reasonable for me to argue about the enslavement of Black people in the U.S. prior to 1865, but I will share this with you and others who may be reading conversation; Sure there were some "free" Black women in the US prior to the Emancipation Proclamation and the Proclamaintion only free the slaves in the southern slave states fighting against the Union, but historians generally agree that it lead to the abolition for all enslaved people in the United States culminating in the passing of the 13th Amendment, which made slavery illegal in 1865.

I argue is one thing that Lincoln did is vastly more important than everything that Obama did, not just for Black women, for the entire country.

“I never, in my life, felt more certain that I was doing right, than I do in signing this paper ...If my name ever goes into history it will be for this act, and my whole soul is in it." President Lincoln 

“Some man who seemed to be a stranger (a United States officer, I presume) made a little speech and then read a rather long paper—the Emancipation Proclamation, I think. After the reading we were told that we were all free, and could go when and where we pleased. My mother, who was standing by my side, leaned over and kissed her children, while tears of joy ran down her cheeks. She explained to us what it all meant, that this was the day for which she had been so long praying, but fearing that she would never live to see." —Booker T. Washington

“When you are dead and in Heaven, in a thousand years that action of yours will make the Angels sing your praises." Hannah Johnson, mother of a Northern Black soldier, writing to President Abraham Lincoln about the Emancipation Proclamation, July 31, 1863

I think Hannah Johnson would, were she alive today, be perplexed by our conversations on this issue. But again arguing the relative merits of this action makes little sense...

Mel, I'm also profoundly saddened to read your statement, "Black men, as a whole, don't give a lick about black women." I sure it is not a sentiment shared by the Brothers participating in this conversation and it is definitely now a sentiment demonstrated by our individual behavior.  

This conversation, and the one about Viola's picture, that prompted it was initiated to illustrate a diss to Black women. In the case of Beyonce's cover, many Black feminists also agree with the points I've made (albeit some more strongly than others). My starting this conversation does not come from a place of disdain for Black women, but from one of love.

This honestly is one reason why I've opted out of social media two years ago, and am considering doing the same for my business. If one subject one's self to this media they will be inundated with messages both subliminal and overt which denigrate Black people. So, it is very understandable why some can believe that "Black men, as a whole, don't give a lick about black women."  

In my circles, which are more typical that the media would have you believe.  Black men fight hard to uplift and support both Black women and the Black community.  Most of us go unheralded and ignored by social media (which has become mainstream).  This is by design.  You see, pushing positive images by Black people who are not celebrities nd who are doing positive things is not as profitable, as covering Black dysfunction and celebrities (combine dysfunction and celebrity and you are golden!)

Even when mainstream media do celebrate the accomplishments of celebrities it is often done with a slight.  Obviously, some of are more aware, or in tune, to these slights than others.  Pointing out these perceived slights of our women is not an indication of not giving "a lick about black women" it is, again, an indication of love.

 

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You get high marks for your sincerity, Troy.  Let me just say, black men love their mothers. Probably their sisters. Most assuredly their daughters.  But the one area where they have fallen short and which how, time and time again, when so many of the brightest and best of them raise the hopes of black women ready to stand by their side or accept their support, is the disappointment that occurs when their black heroes turn out to be married to white women. This has always been considered the ultimate betrayal, whether it is a justified perception or not.  

Of course there are millions of exceptions to this pattern, but it remains a specter in the relationship between black men and women.   it has nothing to do with social media.  It is something that is ingrained in the slave mentality as it exists in modern society.  Black women shared  the burden with their men and strove to hold the family together but that was all they were good for and what their role was.  What better reward for a black man's struggle and achievements than the ultimate prize that all men desire: a white woman. If black women could  be elevated to this level, this would bolster their collective morale and improve their collective image.This is not something that black men can  bring about because they have no influence.  Black women have to wage this battle alone, armed with self love. 

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3 hours ago, Troy said:

Hannah Johnson, mother of a Northern Black soldier, writing to President Abraham Lincoln about the Emancipation Proclamation, July 31, 1863

black mothers, if not all mothers want the best for their children.  So if all Hannah was or considered to be was a vessel and host to bear children - then this would be the highlight of her life. She could only hope her son would look at for her now that he was free and able to participate freely in society.  Unfortunately Hannah was not; and I don't think she would live to see herself being an agent of her own life either.

 

@Troy, I can't continue this discussion with you. I'm exhausted.  You are beyond tone deaf on why it is important to have black men champion the rights of black women.  You're in good company though because a lot of black men are too.. 

It is what it is. 

I'm just thankful President Obama wasn't.

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@Delano, Yes, Alvin Ailey and Arthur Mitchell are inspiring and their support through the arts created avenues for talented black women that were previously closed to them.

These two used their male privilege to open up a venue for black women to shine in an area that was previously closed to them.  I didn't even realize they were gay - so that means not only did they fight for their rights quietly - they also fought to have black women "center stage".  

Thank you.

By the way, there's another black man in history that was a supporter of women's rights.  Frederick Douglass.   I gave him the side-eye though because he asked the suffragettes to stop fighting for their right to vote, to help black men get the vote. smh

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Douglass also divorced his black wife and married a white women, but his black wife was apparently okay with this because at some point all 3 of them lived together in the same house. :o A good ol sista putting her man's needs before her own?? :(

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Perhaps, @Mel Hopkins, I guess the biggest difference between our opinions is that I do not distinguish the fight for Black women's rights with the fight for Black people.

Your points, on this issue, are indeed lost on me.  This, however, is not for a lack of trying.  

@Cynique (anyone), do you see what I'm missing?  If so please give me a simple summary. 

Cynique, I see you mirror, more or less, Mel's statement that I found so sad. It is not just sad but it is also a bit surprising that you separated from Mel by both geography and a generation share this sentiment.  Your statement is more nuanced and revealing some of the complexity in the situation, but the conclusions are similar.

Black power does not, can not, and never has just come from just one gender.  This male/female battle is white people's mess.

Now I know full well many Black are full of self-hate, but I really did not appreciate how Black women feel about Black men.  Now Cynique and Mel do not represent all Black women and I'm sure I can find Black women who disagree with them. Still, I hope their opinion is not widespread.  I hope my daughters do not grow to feel this way...

I have an anecdote that I will share in a separate conversation because it is related to this conversation but from a very different angle.  It talks to a Black women not supporting Black men, namely me. It was a situation that perplexed me more than is bothered me because I never experienced such an obvious situation of a Black woman not supporting me before...  I did not view it as a Black woman not supporting me I saw this as a Black person not supporting me.  Perhaps I'm naive.

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@TroyPerhaps i have taken you for granted since you have named a forum after me and provided me with a broad   arena to express my views, as well as promoted my book in your newsletter. I guess it  is my shortcoming that i have never felt empowered by this because it doesn't really impact on my life or to my knowledge collectively uplift black women. i don't consider myself an inspiration to them or do i look upon myself as a successful author or outstanding forum moderator who inspires others.  But i do appreciate and have always acknowledged that you are a well-intentioned black man who deserves admiration.  Again i express my gratitude.  This black man/black woman dynamic is just so complicated it's hard to sort out. 

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@Delano, I've seen both the Dance Theater of Harlem and Alvin Alley. While I'm not an avid support of dance, I've attended quite a few performances and have even made contributions.  

@Cynique I know :)  

I don't confuse disagreement with a lack of appreciation.  More importantly, I and many others I'm sure, have been thoroughly enriched by your presence here. I only wish that even more people benefit from your wisdom and skill as a writer. 

Here is my prediction: In the not too distant future, when people tire of corporate control of the platforms in which they engage with each other, they will return to to indie platforms.  When that happens Cynique's Corner will become a very popular discussion forum.  People will read you wisdom, humor, and cynism and regret not participating sooner.  

 

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1 hour ago, Troy said:

This, however, is not for a lack of trying.  

@Troy, I know...actually, I feel it. 

This is why I'm glad you at least entertained the discussion.  The one thing about discussions  is really not to change someone's POV, it's about helping each other understand THERE IS ANOTHER POV... you and I are now aware there's another language other than our own. We may not be fluent it in but we know it exist. :thumbs up:

2 hours ago, Cynique said:

Douglass also divorced his black wife and married a white women, but his black wife was apparently okay with this because at some point all 3 of them lived together in the same house

@Cynique Oh snap!  I just can't LOL

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1 hour ago, Cynique said:

This black man/black woman dynamic is just so complicated it's hard to sort out. 

Exactly! For me it's not an individual thing'. Individually I've had a great relationships with some black men  They've supported me as if I were their little sister... So many black men have helped me with my career and many have taken me under their wings - when I've been too naive to understand ways to fight in the world.  But that's individual relationships and love.  @Troy, your mentoring and support of me in this digital world is priceless!  

Yet this doesn't happen as a unified front.

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There are different levels of sexism. There are the active misogynist and the passive there is no issue. So if we swapped race for sex is it any different? 

I have had White Racist have meals and drinks with me. Because we have a personal relationship that overrides their racism. And perhaps that i the issue. There can be an adversarial relationship between men and women, Light and Dark, Straight and not Straight. So it is not always easy to remove this multivalent matrix to look at the individual component.

 

How can a divided people have a united front @Mel Hopkins

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9 minutes ago, Delano said:

How can a divided people have a united front @Mel Hopkins

@Delano

LOL that's how this  topic took that tangential turn... Troy stated "that's another thing that divides us...

This is like the "Niagara Falls" Abbott & Costello joke  - slowly I turn... step by step and I say, "DIVIDE US", DIVIDE US???...

For the majority of women, we cannot be divided from those we give birth to.  Male infants who will later become men literally grow to humans in our bodies and come to this planet through us.  Men carry our mtDNA (mitochondrial DNA), the same molecule that contains the ATP ( adenosine triphosphate)  which is said to be the source of all energy for life... Yes, I'm being dramatic but it's for effect.  Division does not compute on a molecular level...So mentally it's a difficult concept to process.

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@Mel HopkinsThere's something weird about me remembering that Abbot and Costello schtick.  How in the world do know about it??  In grade school, me and my friends used  go around saying "slowly i turned, step-by step" and then add whatever we did or were going to do.  Unbelievable!  i looked up the year this picture came out and it was 1941!

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12 hours ago, Cynique said:

How in the world do know about it??

@Cynique I go by the name "Medea Junkee' " on Instagram... LOL.   When it comes to media - there's not much I haven't consumed... I used to watch a lot of news during the week when I was just a kid. Walter Cronkite, Dan Rather, John Johnson, Ernie Anastos and Carol Martin (she was a black woman anchoring the 6 o'clock news and my inspiration)  were my media heroes. (gosh I'm such a nerd)

On the weekends, my parents allowed me to watch as much television as I wanted.

Growing up in New York, you could get your fill of the The Bowery Boys, Abbott and Costello shows and movies, Bob Hope/Bing Crosby buddy flicks on Sundays.    On Saturdays, you could watch cartoons all morning on the network channels  followed by a lot of old comedy. thrillers and horror movies on the independent broadcast channels such as WPIX, WOR and WNEW. "Creature Feature and Chiller theater come to mind.  

Our cartoons were filled with Western Civilization cultural references so I got introduced to classical music compositions early on thanks to Bugs Bunny.  I learned a bit about the south from Foghorn Leghorn Rooster who happened to be my dad's favorite (he was really into cartoons too)  I learned about ingenuity from Wile E Coyote and the Road Runner (another of my dad's favorites). I then learned a lot about grammar and usage , civics and safety via School House Rocks....

By the way, I learned later that a lot of our old cartoons were censored to cut out the racist references such as black-face, mammy references etc... (so again, there was a certain amount of sheltering when growing up in the North.  Speaking of which, do you know  there's no mention of race on our birth certificates .  I learned that those born in south are identified by race when they are born. But I digress

So yep - I got my old school knowledge of Abbott and Costello, 'n'em  because New York broadcast media kept the 40s, 50s, 60s alive well into the 90s .  :P

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@Mel Hopkins You are such a cosmopolitan, versatile, bright, well-traveled, well-read, unique person who has led such a fantastic life that you are a living embodiment of all that life has to offer.  it's a pleasure to know someone as interesting as you. 

And you are so right about the window to the world that television provided back in its heyday.  There was much to be learned by watching it especially as you say, when it came to American culture.  Did you ever get a chance to see any of the old Oscar Marceaux black films that were shown back in the day? They were really treasures.  

This is why i chide Troy from time to time about his having such contempt for TV, There is much to be gained on the way to learning a little bit about a lot of things through watching television.  Nowadays if you are selective in your viewing there is still  a broad spectrum to be observed on television about the world and the life and times that we live in.  

I was particularly piqued in your remarks about Bugs Bunny which brought to mind  my oldest grandson who was in the wrong place at the wrong time and was shot down in a drive by killing at age 22.  He was very attracted to the street life and tried to take on the identity of homeboy from the hood something that required him to adopt an alter ego and speak Ebonics in order to impress who he wanted to be his peers.  Whenever he and i talked he always spoke the way he was raised to.  Anyway he was introduced to classical music via Bug Bunny cartoons when he was a little boy and came to like it as much as gangsta rap. i always think of him whenever i hear "Spring Song" by Mendelssohm.  

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I didn't consider they could be gay. Until it was suggested that they and me by extension could be gay.

It's not relevant. What is interesting is that liking art makes one gay. We'll all rappers are gay because they are poets. Lynn Swann was a Superbowl champion and didn't hide the fact he took Ballet classes. As a kid we saw Black Black Theatre and went to the museum. But i was also into hip hop.  Yeah i can scratch mix and match beats. And I was nice with my hands. 

Like i remember Dr Lenny Gunther telling us we had it aĺl wrong. Surfing aint a white boy sport . Hawaiians Polynesians and Pacific islanders were on it. 

Stupidity Brawn and hyper violence and sexuality. Thats keeping it real for some folks. How's that working for us?

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Again, @Delano, I suggest the notion that, "Stupidity Brawn and hyper violence and sexuality" is what makes a Black man--otherwise you're gay is nonsense feed to up by the media and even more so by social media.

Now I know @Cynique, does not agree with this, but she was fortunate to grow up in a world--not where these images did not exist--but where they were not constantly driven into your head like a pile driver.  Today people walk around, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, with devices in their hands feeding them a constant stream of stereotypes and other nonsense psychometrically designed to keep you engaged, dumb and easily manipulated. These stereotypes are becoming greatly reinforced.

Don't ask me to present a scientific study to prove what I just wrote.  There have been plenty of books that touch on the subject which I have read and have previously shared.  But even these books are obsolete as the technology is rapidly changing and becoming more effective.

@Mel Hopkins, I know exactly what you are talking about with the retrospective on TV. But I suspects that would only mean something to someone who was in NYC in the 70's.  Relatively speaking we have a much larger selection of channels and programming than most.  In many places during that time, there were only 3 or 4 stations and those did not broadcast 24 hours a day.

@Cynique, what your grandson did is called "code switching," I did it until I was in my mid-twenties.  I stopped because I was no longer spending time in the 'hood.  I can't to it any longer because the lingo has changed and I rather speak do the way I do, than coming across as "frontin' (phony)."  I know where I come from and have nothing to prove.

Unfortunately, many of us never grow out of that.  We have all seen s middle aged men behaving and dressing like a 20-something.  In fact, this is the effect that middle-aged rappers go for and they look silly, juvenile, to me.  Here again is a message that we are hit with constantly--Black man behave like a child. 

Again, one would have to be sensitive to this, as some of it is almost subliminal, but I can give you MANY examples.  

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15 hours ago, Delano said:

Stupidity Brawn and hyper violence and sexuality. Thats keeping it real for some folks. How's that working for us?

BAM!!!

It doesn't.  Or at least in my memory most who exhibited this behavior line the walls of society's jails and/or are food for the earth. 

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20 hours ago, Cynique said:

I was particularly piqued in your remarks about Bugs Bunny which brought to mind  my oldest grandson who was in the wrong place at the wrong time and was shot down in a drive by killing at age 22.  He was very attracted to the street life and tried to take on the identity of homeboy from the hood something that required him to adopt an alter ego and speak Ebonics in order to impress who he wanted to be his peers.  Whenever he and i talked he always spoke the way he was raised to.  Anyway he was introduced to classical music via Bug Bunny cartoons when he was a little boy and came to like it as much as gangsta rap. i always think of him whenever i hear "Spring Song" by Mendelssohm.  

@Cynique, I'm so sorry for your loss and ours.  When I read this initially, I couldn't process it right away.   I got choked up.  Then while revisiting my photos for the National Museum of African American History and Culture... I started to cry.   We can go so many ways in this life... I don't know what's it like to be a black man in this society and for some black women, It may seem that I don't know what's it's like to be a "black woman"... but like you, we've experienced so many things and taken advantage of a lot of what life has to offer.   I was drawn to you for that very reason... Prior to reading your first hand accounts,  I thought I was just "lucky" ..Then I noticed the theme and pattern in your accounts that allowed me tor realize; it's not luck but choices and resourcefulness. 

I, like your grandson, love rap and classical music equally. I'm not  surprised your grandson was intrigued by the streets..around the same age or I was a little older,  I remember going to an award show with Big Daddy Kane and we went to this after party.  While we getting ready to go through the door; I heard this crack and thud... Kane had cold cocked this dude and literally knocked him to the ground.  Rush (Russell Simmons) who was already in the club came out and ushered us in quickly.  I've entertained in my home the now deceased Professor X...Lamumba Carson... Or drag raced against a man down Atlantic Avenue in Brooklyn,  who I later found out was very connected to the streets, rap music and cyber crime.. but I dated him for several years...(even though I had a baby daughter to consider.  

All this to say, that's what an upbringing that exposes you to so many different worlds will do for you...It expands the mind in ways that average folks will never understand...

I can't speak for your grandson but I followed a similar path as he did and learned a lot. I can only wonder if it was a "Class" for him too.   I'm so sorry he's not here to share his stories.  It makes me even more committed to getting stuff down in print... because NOTHING and No day is promised to us - but every day we breath we have to experience as much as we can.  Thank you Cynique, thank you so much for sharing you, with us! <3

 

 

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20 hours ago, Cynique said:

This is why i chide Troy from time to time about his having such contempt for TV, There is much to be gained on the way to learning a little bit about a lot of things through watching television.  Nowadays if you are selective in your viewing there is still  a broad spectrum to be observed on television about the world and the life and times that we live in.  

Absolutely! I've learned a lot from television! And even today, often times writers give hints how to navigate unfamiliar worlds..I've always sucked at office politics so thank goodness my time in traditional corporate america was limited ...but I did learn how to navigate those office reindeeer games by watching shows such as The Good Wife and  even "The Black List"...

While I'm sure the players display hyper-misbehavior ... stereotypes are stereotypes for a reason ... and there's much to be learned from watching these characters interact with the plot.  Especially since those plots are taken from life.   Television is a tool and if you know how to use it, it will serve you well.  

 

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Troy you say that the media is portraying this stereotype. Then you say to Cynique that middle age rappers dress like 20 somethings. Q-Tip said he shops at Kmart. Nelly said it best when speaking on a panel about negative images in hip hop. I would love to make videos with positive images. But the public won't buy it."

You have a few categories of Rap 70's through 80's.

Party Rappers , Hustling Rappers, Social Justce, Political, and Philosophical and Super Hero , Everyman , Under Dog and Top Dog. What sells is negativity. 

Hey Twin. You consistently say what i feel but more eloquently. Cynique you are wealth of knowledge and a treasure. 

Thank you,

Del

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i, myself,  am a tad "street".  i like a little edginess and danger.  In my 30s, even after i was married, because me and my husband both felt that we deserved some respite from the humdrum of working every day and raising kids and paying bills, Friday  was his poker playing and beer-drinking night and  Saturday was my league bowling night out "with the girls".  I had a good running buddy who had a little spirit of adventure like me.  And after we'd be done bowling about 9:PM, we would go hang out in  hole in the wall joints, sit at the bar and let guys buy us drinks, and engage us in conversation.  I met some very interesting intriguing characters on these occasions. hard-workin dudes,  rough around the edges, very shrewd and streetwise and sexy but who'd never go any further than you'd let them. By the time our midnight curfew came around, after we'd finished drinkin and smokin and doing the Bump and the Funky Broadway on the dance floor, me and my girl friend would take our leave. My husband never complained about this activity because after i got home, he'd reap the benefits of my vodka-primed missionary position. :P

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Del I'm talking about the most popular rappers like Little Wayne or Snoop, not the Q-Tips.  The rappers that the majority of the world know and regularly see.  I agree, rappers span the gamut and there are a great variety of them.  I was NOT indicting rappers, I was indicting the media images which depict grown men behaving as boys and the adverse stereotypes and they create and the resulting behavior the result when Black men mimic the images they see.

Don't get me wrong it is not that I don't watch TV.  I just don't watch very much of it.  Unless I'm watching a documentary about don't use that media to learn about people.  Similarly, I'm sure there are people who think I'm missing out on learning about the world and people by opting out of social media.

I don't think so, I think we can learn much more about each other by reading books, articles, and even posts on discussion forums like this.

And Cynique, I've on the business end of the "vodka-primed-girls-night-out" so I 'm what you are saying :wub:

 

 

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Cynique

As opposed to you who can't gush enough adoration for Farrakhan.

Not adoration but ADMIRATION certainly.
I think he is one of the greatest Black leaders of our time.

Who else do you know can call 2 million Black men together in one location?

 

at some point all 3 of them lived together in the same house

Sounds like my type of guy.......lol.





Troy


Now I know full well many Black are full of self-hate, but I really did not appreciate how Black women feel about Black men. Now Cynique and Mel do not represent all Black women and I'm sure I can find Black women who disagree with them. Still, I hope their opinion is not widespread. I hope my daughters do not grow to feel this way...

It will last as long as we are under the system of White supremacy.
Women.....not just Black women but women of all races.....are taught to love and respect White men unconditionally in this society.

It starts in the church with a picture of a White Jesus with blonde hair and blue eyes that little girls of color are introduced to in childhood.
They grow up believing that THAT is the perfect man whom they should love and trust in.

...and it just continues from there.


There is a subconscious love for White men and White authority that has been instilled in them since childhood and the only antidote is Black males achieving enough wealth and power in society that it COMPELLS Black women to respect them.

This is why the drug dealer, pimp, and hustler often have a much better relationship with Black women than the so-called "good" brothers do.
They don't rely on White standards of respect and civility.....they rely on NATURE'S.





Del


I didn't consider they could be gay. Until it was suggested that they and me by extension could be gay.

It's not relevant. What is interesting is that liking art makes one gay. We'll all rappers are gay because they are poets.

Come on man, almost anyone over 30 almost automatically associates men who perform ballet with being gay.....and justifiably so.

Just like Cynique wondered if Viola's male hairstylist was gay.



Liking ballet, poetry, art, ect....doesn't necessarily make one gay.
But some professions are just dominated by women and gay men.

Not sure why so many male hair stylists are gay (or even if they are), but I suspect that most male ballet dancers are gay because it would be harder for a straight man to squeeze and grab on so many women all day without getting an erection.

We can't have that constantly happening on stage....lol.

 



Stupidity Brawn and hyper violence and sexuality. Thats keeping it real for some folks. How's that working for us?

Actually, encouraging Black men to act feminine and gay is just as detrimental to the Black community as encouraging them to be violent and hypermasculine.

One is passive genocide and the other is active genocide.

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Mel

It doesn't. Or at least in my memory most who exhibited this behavior line the walls of society's jails and/or are food for the earth.

I agree that the reckless violence and aggression you see some young Black men exhibiting is selfdestructive however......

I notice that for the past 30 years or so conservative White women have been ENCOURAGING White men to be more masculine, aggressive, and take back their manhood.
They even push it among little boys with the Dr. Laura's of the world.

But I don't see Black females conservatives pushing the same thing.

I see to many pushing the slave narrative of,
"keep your mouth shut, head down, and do what you're told and you'll be successful" to a lot of Black boys.

So a lot of White conservative and Republican women are ENOURAGING masculinity among their boys, while a lot of Black conservative and even liberal women seem to be encouraging conformity among THEIR boys.

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@Pioneer1 

2 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

Who else do you know can call 2 million Black men together in one location?

Any black leader could've done this.  Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Julian Bond. Black men are what made it successful, not the leader.  Interesting that 20 years after this monumental gathering, nothing had changed among the ranks of black men - except that Farrakhn may have gotten a little richer and more long-winded.  ;)

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No one knows who Jullian Bond is and I seriously doubt Jessie of Sharpton could have done what Farrakhan did.  The primary reason is that Farrakhan is viewed as his own man.  A "Man's man" if you will.  Sharpton and Jessie have the reputation of pimping corporations and are dependent upon them.

Can you image a Million Man March, sponsored by McDonalds or Coke?

 

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@Troy Julian Bond was the National President of the NAACP with an impressive civil rights resume. (It wasn't just young black men who attended this event)   Jesse Jackson could have just as easily organized this march because it was something black men were "up for" and it took on a life of its own.  So it didn't matter who the leader was.No corporate sponsors were needed.  How much did it cost to put it on?   Everybody paid their own way.   Al Sharpton or even Tavis Smiley could've probably pulled it off. All Farrakhan had to do was show up and take advantage of a captive audience for one of his boring, self-serving, marathon speeches.

And black men who were always whining about not being supported by their women, stiffed them on this occasion because chauvinist Farrakhan discouraged any participation on the part of women who wanted to be represented by groups showing their support, - and this created a rift. 

When all these black men returned to their home bases, did Farrakhan and the black Muslims do anything to address and resolve their grievances. Nothing changed. 

You and Pioneer can extol this guy all you want, but you'll never convert me to being a fan because i dislike the grim,furtive, misogynistic  islamic religion and the men who bask in it while exploiting their followers in general and women in particular..  

 

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6 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:


Mel

It doesn't. Or at least in my memory most who exhibited this behavior line the walls of society's jails and/or are food for the earth.

I agree that the reckless violence and aggression you see some young Black men exhibiting is selfdestructive however......

I notice that for the past 30 years or so conservative White women have been ENCOURAGING White men to be more masculine, aggressive, and take back their manhood.
They even push it among little boys with the Dr. Laura's of the world.

But I don't see Black females conservatives pushing the same thing.

I see to many pushing the slave narrative of,
"keep your mouth shut, head down, and do what you're told and you'll be successful" to a lot of Black boys.

So a lot of White conservative and Republican women are ENOURAGING masculinity among their boys, while a lot of Black conservative and even liberal women seem to be encouraging conformity among THEIR boys.

@Pioneer1 This an interesting view from your world.  

I live in a different world.  My world doesn't consist of  radio talk show hosts, conservatives vs-liberals, etc.. I live in a world or at least I surround myself with people who are balanced - focused knowledgeable, with many being polymaths or specialists in their fields. None (unless they're in the closet) ascribe to hyper-masculinity or  hyper-femininity  or even cling to those personality traits as a badge of honor.   In an effort to keep their world balanced they push  boundaries in an attempt to evolve.   I can't speak about those conservatives who are not changing with the times... while I used to report on them - I don't know any personally.  NOTE: I raised my girls in Wheeling, WV and then Naperville, IL and it doesn't get any whiter than that - and  I didn't know of any upper middle class white women to raise their boys to be hyper-masculine and agressive.  The proof of their efforts are in the millennial men that you see at the top of the food chain today.  Not a nary one of those young billionaires are hyper-masculine nor are their peers and counterparts.  

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Del

I didn't consider they could be gay. Until it was suggested that they and me by extension could be gay.

It's not relevant. What is interesting is that liking art makes one gay. We'll all rappers are gay because they are poets.

Come on man, almost anyone over 30 almost automatically associates men who perform ballet with being gay.....and justifiably so.

Just like Cynique wondered if Viola's male hairstylist was gay.



Liking ballet, poetry, art, ect....doesn't necessarily make one gay.
But some professions are just dominated by women and gay men.

Not sure why so many male hair stylists are gay (or even if they are), but I suspect that most male ballet dancers are gay because it would be harder for a straight man to squeeze and grab on so many women all day without getting an erection.
You are diminishing Black Gay Men. And your statements are similar to that of a Racist. No gayness has been as destructive.

Ta-Nahesi Coates is one of the most important writers of our time. He wrote for the Atlantic  , he wrote a few issues of Marvel's Black Panther comic book. And he says he was influenced by James Baldwin's brilliance as a writer. It didn't make Coates a homosexual. Even though Baldwin's writing was informed by both his Blackness and gayness. Coates could see the brilliance of Baldwin's writing. 

Prince is probably one of the most influential and revered musicians of our time. And was bisexual at least in the early part of his career. He didn't see borders or restrictions. He saw musical expression. 

Perhaps people who are fluid sexually also are fluid creatively. Your dislike of the other,  mirrors fundamentalist and other racist/prejudiced people.  Which in  the absence of White Supremacy does not bode well for Black Unification. 

I believe Prince and Miles Davis were brilliant musicians. But not socially intelligent. I can separate the art from the artist. The activist from their actions.  People have flaws and i can't vilify their success even though i dont find their character inspiring. 

 

i admire any individual that can move confidently in a field that discriminates or  tries to exclude them.

i don't follow Baseball but i can acknowledge the importance of Jackie Robinson. Why  because he is an inspiration to other people to fight against opposition in the quest of self expression. 

I don't want my thinking fettered by prejudiced.  Some small minded people will see me as gay. Which isn't my problem. Why does someone's sexuality matter, unless you are attracted to them on some level.

So my lack of discrimination or lower prejudices enabled me to be the only person to answer Mel's question , "Name two Black Men that have helped women? " To the satisfaction of both Mel and Cynique. The beauty was that Mithchell was from Harlem the Black Mecca but didn't come to mind. Since we were focusing on obvious social and political activist. Cultural activist may be the more important of the two.

 

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Troy i can imagine a March inspired by McDonald's and Coke. Because both have supported Black History Month because it is a hood business decision. 

Did yoy see Watts Stax. Yeah in his prime Jackson could have done so.  Sharpton is a bit like Spike Lee. He is vocally pro black yet attracts the money. My Aunt had an interesting take on Sharpton. She felt he wasn't polished enough. Yet he is the only one giving a voice to the voiceless. So again I have to separate my personal feelings about the man to look at the situation using reason not personal prejudice  

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Cynique

Any black leader could've done this. Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Julian Bond.

If Jesse or Al COULD have done it...then why DIDN'T they?

I like Al Sharpton, but I think we all know he's a bit of an opportunist.
Does anyone here REALLY believe that if Al could have pulled off an event that big he would have passed up such an opportunity?

Come on, stop being silly.....lol.

Just hating on Farrakhan for no legitimate reason what so ever.

Julian Who??????




Mel

Well, I can't disagree with you about YOUR reality.

If you don't recognize a push by conservative White women to masculinize their boys and men......
The Republican favorite cheerleader Sara Palin was a clear example of this.
.....there's little I can say to convince you.

 



Del

I'm not diminishing gay Black men.

I think homosexuality.....like violence....is a fact of nature and both have their roles.

Again, my position is that the PROMOTION of homosexuality/effeminacy among Black men is just as destructive as the PROMOTION of violence and criminality among Black men.

And again, BOTH are genocidal.....one is passive and the other active.

Promoting ganster rap encourages Black men to kill themselves.

Promoting homosexual behavior among Black men reduces the amount of Black men willing to have sex with Black women...which reduces the population.

Promoting effeminate behavior among Black men reduces the desire of Black women to have sex with Black men.....which also reduces the population.


Promoting all three will eventually lead to the same end result of reducing the Black population.

 

 

So my lack of discrimination or lower prejudices enabled me to be the only person to answer Mel's question , "Name two Black Men that have helped women? " To the satisfaction of both Mel and Cynique

Either that OR......
In a thread that started off with a noble critique but DEVOLVED into a defacto battle between the sexes.....those two women didn't even see you as part of the opposition, lol.
Perhaps instead of placing you with the male side, they subconsciouly saw you as a neutral party.

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Cynique, I'm not a follower of Farrakhan, but I recognize he commands more respect than all of the Brothers you mentioned, for the reasons I've outlined.  Sure, I know who Julian Bond is, but I'm educated, 55 years old, and actively support Black people.  

Most Black high schoolers know who Farrakhan is.  None of them will know Bond, only a few will know the NAACP--both the man and the institution, I'm sad to say, are irrelevant and have been for some time.  Maybe this will change.  I hope so.  I supported the NAACP financially, off and on, over the years.  I even promoted their book awards for years with less than no support from them... It was no surprise to me one of their chapters had a white girl running it without their knowledge...

The greatest story ever told, niggas in the field
From Solomon to Sambo to Django, it's fact
I'm the Farrakhan of rap and I get it from the wheel
--Jay Z

I guess you'd need to be a Black man to better understand the difference between a Bond and a Farrakhan. It is the same strength exhibited by Malcolm X and Brothers like Huey Newton, and others.  None of these men are perfect--no man is.  But we seemingly can even agree on who are strong leaders are... 

You and I gave several reasons for the apparent lack of follow-through since the Million Man March.  I was one of those Brothers who had no interest in attending, because Marches do nothing and many of the Brothers I knew who were most excited to go were some of the most trifling Brothers around.  Still to get a million people to do anything is a tremendous accomplishment, to get that many people to do something important is sublime.  Farrakhan had that potential.  The religion is one thing that put a serious constraint on his effectiveness.  

I've attended services at their Mosque I have seen the positive impact on Brothers and Sisters, but as I said it is not for me. I've also heard Farrakhan speak live, in perhaps his prime, in the early 1980's he was the most skilled speaker I ever heard. (I would not say that today, because Farrakhan does tend to ramble as Cynique said.  In fact, his speech during the Million Man March, wasn't  so great--a missed opportunity).

Has anyone else been to a NOI service or heard Farrakhan speak live?  It is hard to judge the man if you've never heard him speak.  Sort of like dissin' Go-Go music without hearing it live.

Giving @Delano the "wachu-talkin-bout-willis" look.  Man, I know you ain't talking about me assuming what other people believe.  I'm the one asking the most questions, sometimes asking the same question 2 or 3 times.  I'm the one who crafted a survey to ask even more people what they think.

If I ever make a statement about what someone else believes it is an attempt to restate my understanding of what they said so that it is clear that I understand them.  I doubt you will ever find me making a declaration of what someone else thinks without anything to support the supposition.  

Pioneer I agree with a lot of what you say.  But the tide has turned on homosexuality, the horse is out the barn, the cat is out the bag, that ship has sailed, and you are not putting that genie back in the bottle... Just get used to it man.

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