Mel Hopkins Posted June 16, 2017 Report Share Posted June 16, 2017 5 hours ago, Troy said: Just because you understand the stock market does not mean you will make money. We rely on research reports and the companies themselves to provide information. If they lie what good are our facts and information. If rating agencies and government regulators fail to do their jobs we are screwed--and we a This was really good, @Troy! Do you know I don't have a clue as to how the stock market works. (I have an idea but not enough to teach) but I still made a nice chunk of cash and cashed out to do other things with my money... Do you want to know how? Because I pay attention!!! I listen! I bought walgreens at $35 a share and sold at $105 I think it was... It wasn't insider trading I just paid attention to movements of the company... I heard they were setting up clinics inside larger corporations and for things like drug testing etc ...and employee health maintenance. I went online to see how far reaching it was and lo and behold... there was evidence everywhere... Know what else I bought? Siemens, because of the high speed railroad that broke ground under Obama, this company had a few subcontracts related to the high-speed railroad -so I bought a piece of their company. Not much, a few shares. but enough to play around with and make cash. I invested in chinese bonds (yuan) via EFT retail because they (PRC) hold a lot of U.S. debt and I followed a lot of American companies such as caterpillar who were investing in building China at their rate of exchange... Since I had gone clothes shopping in Beijing a few times I realized how much U.S. dollars could buy in RMBs (their currency)and I thought holy crap - American companies are making out like fat cats because they could buy so much more... then I noticed how the Chinese were playing with the U.S. treasury by lowering their currency's value and by the way- that was reported in the U.S. media but no one was paying attention because everyone here is focused on the fuckin' kardashians. So U.S. media stopped reported on it. I turned to Bloomberg.... they tell you who is moving the crowd and why the crowd is moving" It's not market manipulation - it's people manipulation and now Bloomberg is a media empire that is taking over the world ...but folks are paying attention to google whose product is an address bar. I just noticed that bloomberg law is a thing... that is getting ready to overtake LexisNexis (RELX) ( correction* I believe it already has but don't quote me on it) but I digress....that's a whole other story. Troy, nothing is rocket science except rocket science and even that is dependent on how we measure time... - the stock market is exactly what it is a market... you buy and sell everything. But you have to pay attention to what you're buying. You have to decide if you are going to let someone do your thinking for you - or are you going to pay attention. President Obama enacted a law to protect the consumers.... and it did. Now we have 45 taking away the very protections that you just mentioned will screw us all... so yes, you are right. I have to make people care to understand. (I love that line) So Troy if I can make you care then my job is done because you are a champion of black people... and you will echo my voice. And you'll tell them the only trickery is diversion - distracting your attention like a sleight of the hand from what matters. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cynique Posted June 16, 2017 Report Share Posted June 16, 2017 A very interesting and informative discussion! i tend to focus on how bad things are going in the inner cities and gloss over how well black entrepreneurs and investors are doing. along with the black middle class, in general. . Guess it seems more socially-conscious to gripe about the have-nots instead of the haves, especially since Trump is representative of how the rich get over by oppression and exploitation. I was interested in Delano's conclusions about global warming because this is a subject that i find myself feeling guilty over not caring about. It just doesn't phase me. There are so many more pressing issues and immediate problems to worry about, as far as i'm concerned. Yet others are just fanatical about this "danger"; mostly white people. Just like they are the ones so into animal welfare. They go crazy over anything bad that occurs to bears or sharks or gorillas or dogs or any endangered species. Unless the endangered species happens to be young black males. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delano Posted June 16, 2017 Report Share Posted June 16, 2017 Troy and Mel I think the real problem is people generally aren't taught critical thinking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Posted June 17, 2017 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2017 Del this post of yours, is a brilliant example my point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delano Posted June 17, 2017 Report Share Posted June 17, 2017 6 minutes ago, Troy said: Del this post of yours, is a brilliant example my point. It helps having information and then add some thinking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Del Posted June 17, 2017 Report Share Posted June 17, 2017 On 11/06/2017 at 0:49 AM, Troy said: @Del Snoop is world famous and enjoys an active career. He is a pop culture icon. Not speaking for Pioneer but why call Farrakhan a sell-out because he plays classic music, that seems a bit silly. Sort of like the way we used to tease kids who spoke proper English or tried to do well in school Farrakhan does not hate all white people I heard him say that he greatly admires Jascha Heifetz and that guy is Jewish. Y'all gotta stop listening to white people and listen to the man. Malcolm X called white people blue-eyed devils too, but even he was speaking about their behavior--which is, and has been, quite devilish. Hyperbole. I heard him speak. I have started another thread Critical Thinking vs Analytical Thinking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Del Posted June 17, 2017 Report Share Posted June 17, 2017 So the industrial revolution saw the wide spread use of combustion engines and pollution. Notice there is,nt a big spike in the 1840. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Del Posted June 17, 2017 Report Share Posted June 17, 2017 In the 1980 you see CO2 emissions climbing and population. So prior to 1980 tempature is not tracking with CO2 emissions. So if you can read the graphs you can see there doesn't appear to be a link from the industrial revolution to 1980. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Posted June 17, 2017 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2017 Del I'm not a climatologist or scientist who specializes in this field--neither are you. Del climate change is, in fact, happening this is not in dispute by trained practitioners who study the subject. There is some controversy over whether man is causing these changes, but those who believe man is not the cause are in such a small minority they are irrelevant (likely in the pockets of the fossil fuel industry). This subject is not a simple matter of correlating CO2 emissions and average temperatures. This is a complex subject. I suspect you are unaware of what you don't know. Perhaps this is why the public is not very concerned. The media are treating this issue much like you are as if it is up for debate. I find it fascinating and surprising that you would presume to know more than the entire scientific community. Now I'm not surprised that the "average Joe" (someone like 45) might assume they know more; I'm surprised that you would. There is old saying that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. I presume (hope) you've read much of the same information I have, so I won't waste time sharing things with you have you've already rejected. But in the not too distant future, it won't matter that we've stopped listening to scientists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delano Posted June 17, 2017 Report Share Posted June 17, 2017 I will reiterate my point about critical thinking an analytical thinking. I was hoping that I could present some graphical information and a discussion could ensue. I wanted to make up my own mind about global warming. So I decided to analyze the numbers. And make up my own mind. I am going to illuminate an obvious point. It is only in the last 35 years that emissions and temperature are moving in the same direction. 35 years of temperature is NOT climate. Just because its not man made doesn't mean we shouldn't be proactive about pollution. You are making an incorrect inference from my position. Open both your mind and your mouth. Original thinking is difficult. I spent several hours trying to get 250 years of data. I also had to understand the different types of temperature readings. And finally what drives weather. On 6/18/2017 at 3:52 AM, Troy said: Del I'm not a climatologist or scientist who specializes in this field--neither are you. Del climate change is, in fact, happening this is not in dispute by trained practitioners who study the subject. There is old saying that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. I presume (hope) you've read much of the same information I have, so I won't waste time sharing things with you have you've already rejected. But in the not too distant future, it won't matter that we've stopped listening to scientists. Troy you haven't read or understand a fraction of what i have read. And zero of what I have presented. I thought this was a forum for discussion not a dismissive forum . I don't believe climate change is man made, but we should do something about pollution. Just because I don't believe in Climate Change doesn't mean I agree with Trump that we shouldn't curve emissions. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel Hopkins Posted June 17, 2017 Report Share Posted June 17, 2017 @Delano, maybe i missed something - but I thought this graph was indicating co2 emission is not related to global warming because it didn't track with the rise in temperature? and the charts are showing something else is in play? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Posted June 17, 2017 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2017 Del, the definition of what you wrote about my response was "dismissive." Why do you get away with being dismissive? Del you understand is statistics, no one has disputed it all called that into question, what I've called into question is your knowledge about climate, a subject you have neither asserted, or demonstrated, detailed knowledge of. Am I wrong about that? Statistics is a tool, like a hammer, nothing more. Understanding how to use a hammer does not make you an architect. You wrote, "...35 years of temperature is NOT climate." Who said it was? There are places on the earth where temperatures are going down. The average global temperature can be misleading. The problem is the global climate is changing more rapidly than it normally would and the best minds in the world the cats who study and understand the science, better than you I'm sure, say that it is because of man's activity. Now I'm sorry if I've offended you because I say the scientists who study the subject know a lot more than you. I'm stating a fact, if facts offend you I'm sorry to learn that. Again this is a surprising revelation. Please answer this question: Why @Delano, do you believe you know more about the causes of climate change than the preponderance of Ph.D.s whose profession it is to understand this stuff? Keep in mind, a keen understanding of statistics is insufficient reason for these guys now statistics too. Del (everyone) please reply to the climate change digression in this new conversation. (Thanks) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delano Posted June 18, 2017 Report Share Posted June 18, 2017 What Am I asking is to look at the data and use your reasoning ability. You are ability to formulate your own opinion is not in contradistinction to experts. By being able to think either critically or analytically you can understand expert opinion on a deeper level. For Instance being a trained musician will deepn your appreciation for Music. Does it mean you have to like Miles Davis, Prince , Beethoven or Mozart. No you can dislike them but still appreciate their canon of work. I am annoyed because there are experts in various fields that hire statisticians to interpret their data. Is the statiscian that analyzes medical data capable of surgery, not unless they were a surgeon to begin with. Can they discuss the data and it's implication. Yes provided they have some knowledge. I'll tell you a funny story. I was talking with a doctor. I beleive he was a psychologist or psychiatrist and he was doing some statistical analysis. I said cool it is my hobby. I started asking him some question he had no idea about what I was talking about. He is a person that is using statistics , and at the time I was working on a project. Look at each graph and simply write what you think it says. That is all I am asking. To think about information that is being presented. The scientist aren't even presenting data. They are saying we looked and this is the answer. I always like to look at the source data they are quoting, so I can think about what it means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Del Posted June 18, 2017 Report Share Posted June 18, 2017 @Troy I am not dismissing you. I am encouraging you to think. Which implies that I think you are capable of doing so. Yet you seem resistant. Perhaps I am wrong in my assessment of you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delano Posted June 20, 2017 Report Share Posted June 20, 2017 On 2017-6-18 at 9:23 AM, Mel Hopkins said: @Delano, maybe i missed something - but I thought this graph was indicating co2 emission is not related to global warming because it didn't track with the rise in temperature? and the charts are showing something else is in play? Looking at the temperature anamoly notice that up until the 1980's its up and down. Then on the 80's it increases consistently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xeon Posted June 22, 2017 Report Share Posted June 22, 2017 "Well Brother Farrakhan has atleast 2 million witnesses who can prove that his mission to organize a million Black men to march on Washington in 1995 was ACCOMPLISHED." Oh really? And what exactly did he accomplish? It's been more than twenty years since his so-called Million Man March, and Negroes are still mired in a quagmire of high unemployment, illegitimacy and fatherless homes, being the last in every single category of academic achievement, first in homicide (victims of other Negroes) which is the number one cause of death for black males 18-35, incarcerations being the norm, the negative perception and low expectation of black people by non-blacks is still unwavering, etc, etc. So, what was the outcome? What tangible and verifiable information do you have have that Farrakhan has minimized or eliminated the aforementioned? Wasn't that the purpose of his organizing, reaching out and effectively changing all what I mentioned though the alleged million men who showed up to hear him? Bottom line: How has the overhaul quality of life for the American Negro changed since the vaunted Farrakhan Million Man March? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Posted June 22, 2017 Author Report Share Posted June 22, 2017 @Xeon, I'm not attempting to speak for Pioneer, but given what you wrote; “Negroes are still mired in a quagmire of high unemployment, illegitimacy and fatherless homes, being the last in every single category of academic achievement, first in homicide (victims of other Negroes) which is the number one cause of death for black males 18-35, incarcerations being the norm, the negative perception and low expectation of black people by non-blacks is still unwavering, etc, etc.” assuming this is true, why blame this state on what you perceive as the failure of the MMM? Using this logic it would be reasonable to place our current predicament at the feet of every Black person including Obama, King, El Haji Malik el Shabazz, and you and I. Why single out Farrakhan's MMM to blame? We all have a hand in this, including our oppressors. At the end of the day, Farrakhan's MMM was a powerful event for many. Of course, this is not universally accepted, but nothing is universally accepted where man is concerned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cynique Posted June 22, 2017 Report Share Posted June 22, 2017 @Troy I'm not one to speak for Xeon but he reinforced much of what i said about the MMM. i don't think either of us are blaming the MMM for the present state of the black community. What we're saying is that it had no visible positive trickle down effect on the plight of black men as witnessed by the present state of the black community. So our being unimpressed with Farrakhan carries just as much weight as you and Pioneer being impressed with him. You continue to fault Obama for what he didn't do, while offering vague anecdotal undocumented praise of all the things that Farrakhan did and does do, accomplishments which obviously don't extend beyond the boundaries of his ministry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pioneer1 Posted June 23, 2017 Report Share Posted June 23, 2017 Cynique and Xeon((scratches head)) You 2 are smart people, and this isn't very hard. It's actually quite simple. Why don't you two "get it"? The GOAL of Minister Farrakhan was to have a MILLION MAN MARCH. His GOAL was to organize a peaceful gathering of a million Black men on the Mall in Washington D.C. He ACCOMPLISHED this when over a million showed up. I was there, I can bear witness to this fact. It was a success, get over it. Furthermore................ Minister Farrakhan's message for Black people was/is CRYSTAL CLEAR: Stop drinking Stop using drugs Stop engaging in criminal activity Eat properly Take care of your children Use the creativity in you to build a business for yourself. Just like Elijah Muhammad's was 50 years ago. And just like Elijah's, it worked for those WHO FOLLOWED IT back then, and it works for those WHO FOLLOW IT today. Pointing to the ills of a community in which the VAST MAJORITY of people DO NOT adhere to Minister Farrakhan's message as an example of his ineffectiveness.......is like pointing to a sick man who refuses to take his prescribed medicine as an example of how ineffective the doctor is. Thousands of Black men in Chicago and other cities have heard Minister Farrakhan yet STILL engage in gang-banging and dope using/selling even when many of them have OTHER means to make a living and conduct themselves. But you want to blame that on him? Like I said before, Minister Farrakhan is a LEADER.....but not a DICTATOR. The only thing he does is TELL you how to be successful, but if you refuse to follow his instructions and continue to behave in "niggatry" and foolishness, why is that HIS fault? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Posted June 23, 2017 Author Report Share Posted June 23, 2017 @Pioneer1 , if it means anything to ya Bruh I agree 100% @Cynique , nothing Pioneer wrote disagrees with what you or Xeon wrote. I would go as far as to say what he wrote is indisputable--which is saying a lot Sorry for anyone who saw that protected and obscene racist post. Truth be told some of it was kinda funny, but if you did not see it don't worry about it. Racist trolls are everywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pioneer1 Posted June 23, 2017 Report Share Posted June 23, 2017 Troy@Pioneer1 , if it means anything to ya Bruh I agree 100% Confirmation from a brother of YOUR status means more than you'll ever know ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cynique Posted June 23, 2017 Report Share Posted June 23, 2017 Pioneer, and Troy: Obama, your favorite scapegoat, motivated and inspired about 20 million black men to march to the polls and vote for him for president and the result he got was that he won. Yet you continue to harp on all that he didn't do for black folks, in spite of the fact that he did do some things that were beneficial to them.This is also a man who inspired and endeared himself to and lifted the morale of millions of disillusioned black women because he married and cherished a sista and elevated her to the highest female position in the land, enabling her to be a great role model for black females. Yet, you say he did nothing for black women. i am not a rabid fan of the Obamas but what i said about them is "indisputable". So if you don't want Farrakhan put in perspective then stfu about Obama when trying to aggrandize your hero. I previously said that "Farrakhan's accomplishments obviously don't extend beyond the boundaries of his ministry. And i stand by that. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Posted June 23, 2017 Author Report Share Posted June 23, 2017 Cynique if you put it that way; Obama got my vote (twice), but Farrakhan failed to get me to come out to DC, So in that regard, Obama was more effective with more people (though traveling to DC was a lot more difficult that traveling to one's polling place). Obama's becoming the first "Black" president is a historic accomplishment, one that is not likely to be repeated for another century. This is indeed indisputable. Cynique, from a personal perspective I think you are overemphasizing my negative views of Obama. I have both positive and negative things to say about both men. I have positive and negative things to say about myself. One can hold all of these opinions. Obviously, I'll continue to voice my opinions them whenever I choose. I also go around prefacing every Obama critique with something positive just to make people who nothing bad to say the man feel comfortable... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cynique Posted June 23, 2017 Report Share Posted June 23, 2017 @TroyWell, "i put it that way" because i just wanted to give you and Pioneer a little taste of your own medicine. i know you are luke warm about Obama, and you are entitled to feel that way - just as i am entitled to be luke warm about Farrakhan and not have him stuffed down my throat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Posted June 23, 2017 Author Report Share Posted June 23, 2017 I agree with that 100% Cynique. At the end of the day, I'm not a follower of Farrakhan, in fact, I'm a follower of no man, it simply is not in my nature. But I understand why others might get feel the need to follow someone--for them, it can be very beneficial. There are people who follow Farrakhan and their lives are much better for it. They derive discipline, a strength in character. I know a few of these brothers and Farrakhan has had a positive impact on them. Again the NOI is not for everyone it definitely is not for me, but I recognize their positive influence Farrakhan get my respect because he is their leader. I also feel I've obtained some benefit from the NOI--easily when I was in my 20's he helped inspire Black pride and Black unity. This was the power of the MMM that I think you may not appreciate. That impact was felt even by Brothers who did not attend. But again I'm just not gonna be rocking a bow tie, going to services every Sunday, and giving up pork and alcohol to get down with them. I also recognize that many people derived a great deal of joy and inspiration from Obama's presidency, and if that has helped them get through life more easily--I'm all for it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pioneer1 Posted June 25, 2017 Report Share Posted June 25, 2017 Cynique You are more than "luke warm" about Farrakhan, you seem not to like the man at all. I actually LIKE Obama, I just thought he was pretty weak and ineffective as a leader. He did some good things, and some not so good things...but he could have done more. I found myself actually AGREEING with Donald Trump when I read an article today about Obama having clear evidence that Russia was trying to hack and influence the Presidential election. Trump said hell, if Obama knew all of this then why didn't he DO something about it! http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/23/politics/vladmir-putin-russia-election/index.html And I agree...why DIDN'T Obama do something about it? You and Mel may love Obama, but just know that Obama is the number 1 reason Trump is in office today!Troy Back during my "religious phase" I studied various religions that I thought would help me and help Black people collectively. I studied the teachings of the Nation of Islam and used to attend their services and to me they are pound for pound one of the most effective organizations for cleaning up and improving the overall lives of Black people in America as of right now. That's why they have so much of my respect. I don't know of too many organizations that share their same track record. Even the religious or "cultish" aspect of it makes sense to me, because when you're dealing with ex-criminals, ex-dope addicts, ex-gang bangers....you NEED a strong dominating structure to constantly stay on you and give you firm direction in your life. You and I may not need a religious structure, but I recognize the many of our people do in thier development process and if we're gonna get one....that structure may as well be built by other Black men who understand us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cynique Posted June 25, 2017 Report Share Posted June 25, 2017 i've said on numerous occasions that i am not a big Obama fan just like I've repeatedly said, i have no reason to care one way or another about Farrakhan because he impacts on my life in no way. I'll leave worshiping him from afar to you. The official reason given for the question you and your "strange bed fellow" Trump ask is that like, Trump, Obama thought Hillary was going to win. You don't need to justify your agreeing with Trump. Like all the other "loyal" American sheeple out there, you are falling under his sway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delano Posted February 11, 2018 Report Share Posted February 11, 2018 On 02/06/2017 at 5:32 AM, Cynique said: Does the short list of women mentioned by Troy, Pioneer and Del represent examples of the question Mel asked, as to whether any black man has championed the rights of black women and actually helped us inch up higher at last place?" The answer is no. And just like you men don't want to condemn all preachers or leaders because of a few bad ones, why are black women obligated to dismiss Beyonce and Viola who command the loyalty and admiration of many black sistas because they have made it on their own. Nevermind that Beyonce is superficial or Viola ambitious; they have not disgraced or demeaned black womanhood. They are beautiful successful independent sistas. Also it's been reported that they both quietly give back to the black community via financial assistance. You are mentioning me as defending ministers. Later on you ask Mel to weigh in on the Viola picture. And while Troy and Pioneer say it as unflattering I did not. Nor did i find it flattering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delano Posted February 11, 2018 Report Share Posted February 11, 2018 On 06/06/2017 at 4:01 AM, Mel Hopkins said: black mothers, if not all mothers want the best for their children. So if all Hannah was or considered to be was a vessel and host to bear children - then this would be the highlight of her life. She could only hope her son would look at for her now that he was free and able to participate freely in society. Unfortunately Hannah was not; and I don't think she would live to see herself being an agent of her own life either. @Troy, I can't continue this discussion with you. I'm exhausted. You are beyond tone deaf on why it is important to have black men champion the rights of black women. You're in good company though because a lot of black men are too.. It is what it is. I'm just thankful President Obama wasn't. @Mel Hopkins yhis doesn't sound like unattachment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cynique Posted February 11, 2018 Report Share Posted February 11, 2018 3 hours ago, Delano said: On 6/1/2017 at 2:32 PM, Cynique said: ...And just like you men don't want to condemn all preachers or leaders because of a few bad ones, why are black women obligated to dismiss Beyonce and Viola who command the loyalty and admiration of many black sistas because they have made it on their own... 3 hours ago, Delano said: You are mentioning me as defending ministers. Later on you ask Mel to weigh in on the Viola picture. And while Troy and Pioneer say it as unflattering I did not. Nor did i find it flattering Did i mention you by name? And i think you're putting your own spin on my words by saying i said you were "defending" preachers. And where in the sentence did i say you thought the picture was unflattering? i'm puzzled as to what all of this is supposed to prove because, as usual, things are not put in context, Just quotes and responses thrown out there about something posted 8 months ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delano Posted February 11, 2018 Report Share Posted February 11, 2018 Am i not a man? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel Hopkins Posted February 11, 2018 Report Share Posted February 11, 2018 16 hours ago, Delano said: Mel Hopkins yhis doesn't sound like unattachment. @Delano As I mentioned my goal is NON-ATTACHMENT. Un-attachment is different. My comment to Troy, here, reveals out of sheer exhaustion to get him to see my perspective, and failing miserably, I stopped. Not detach but just stopped. Maybe stepping back gave me an opportunity to determine what I was actually debating. Was I fighting to defend President Obama's legacy? Or was I fighting to prove that life under President Obama was better. In debating the former, I'm offering a record which has nothing to do with me. If I was debating for the latter, it would be fighting to maintain the illusion that circumstances have to be a certain way for me to be happy. It could be but I'm no longer in that moment so I don't know. I'm not sure how this relates to your original comment here in the Calling all amateur psychiatrists thread, I responded here that I didn't think your assessment, characterization of Cynique not critiquing my comments was accurate. For clarification: I meant that maybe you don't notice that in my exchange with Cynique that I offer no resistance to Cynique's alleged critique or psychoanalyzing. I believe that she can "see" what I'm attached to. So, I look within then respond. Maybe, it's me who responds differently to Cynique than I do with the others. I do agree with Cynique though CONTEXT matters. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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