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Troy

Another Controversial Time Magazine or Can Black Women Catch a Break

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Mel you keep challenging my statements for evidence what specifically would you like me to present evidence for? Just give me one thing that is objective that you would like evidence for it or I'll present it or concede or modify the point.

In the meantime, please present evidence that Obama started and deserves credit for the reduction of Black pregnancy rates, as you've asserted.

So you don't think the emancipation of Black women was more important to Black women than anything that Barack Obama has done?

Also you don't think the Black church was instrumental in getting Obama elected?  Finally, you don't think many Black women derive support from Black male ministers?  Are these the issues you want me to prove?

Cynique, I suspect that Time is no different that any other magazine.  Of course, their focus on celebrity is a reflection of this.  I don't think appearing on Time was the ultimate goal of either woman.  Was that comment directed to me? If so, I have no idea what I wrote to give yu that impression.

 

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On 6/2/2017 at 9:26 AM, Troy said:

let Beyonce's looks slip slightly and then we'll see how prominent she is, they'll move on to the sexy little girl (the next one wont need to be a great singer either).

Beyonce will be rich but she won't be on the cover of Time Magazine any longer. certainly not in her underwear--unless her life careens out of control.

 

@Troy the above quote is why i kinda got the impression that you thought Beyonce and Viola regarded a TIME cover as their priority and not being invited for a second appearance on the cover would be of significance to them, something i didn't agree with.

  Beyonce and Viola are 2 black women whose demograh is not a mainstream white publication, and not getting a second cover will not matter to them..  or do i think either one of these black women will become has-beens because they have both obtained iconic status and have earned a permanent place in the hearts of their fans and followers. Beyonce in particular, like Diana Ross and Halle Berry, will always be a star.  Oscar-winner Viola will remain an actress respected by her peers and the industry. 

These are 2 women who may not have elevated the ranking of black women, but who have, nonetheless, inspired and entertained millions of them, and opened the door for many others to walk through.

 

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Mel

So Obama did more for Black women than any Black man who ever lived?

((shakes head))

Most people have observed that Black Americans collectively have become economically WORSE off during the Obama Administration.
The stock market crash in '07 and the housing crisis in '08 erased much of the wealth gains achieved by Blacks in the 90s and early 2000s.

But I guess it only affected Black men, while Black women continued to rise.

All these Black women I've seen and dealt with over the past 4 or 5 years who told me they had degrees and good professional jobs teaching and working for the government but are now homeless and frequenting food banks were probably just men in drag pretending to be women just to throw people off the trail of how well Black women have been doing under Obama these past 8 years.

....yeah...that's it!

Since you didn't want to accept Farrakhan or Booker T. Washington as examples of Black men who lifted the social and economic status of Black women then I won't even get into Marcus Garvey and other examples.

Who cares about the nearly 1 million Black women that Toussaint Louverture helped liberate from chattle slavery during the Haitian Revolution?

How would something as miniscule as THAT compare to a mulatto offering poor Black women the opportunity to get more free check-ups?




 


Cynique

Well hell, if you wanted to talk about Black men helping INDIVIDUAL Black women you don't have to go to Serena and Venus, you can stay right here in this thread with Beyonce.

Beyonce's father helped her and the rest of the women of Destiny's Child achieve fame.

Image result for mathew knowles

Mathew Knowles

But I thought Mel was asking for leaders on a more national scale.

But now that I see she really DOESN'T want examples regardless as to how many I provide, I'm just about ready to leave it alone........

Who are these "2 women" you keep talking about?
There is only one woman I mentioned by name.

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@Pioneer1The 2 women i am talking about in one post by me are the Muslim sister who  Farrakhan helped and the teacher you say Booker T. Washington helped. The 2 women I make reference to in another thread of mine are Viola Davis and Beyonce whose cover photos on TIME are what sparked the original debate as to whether they were independent black women beholden to no man.  

This debate had gotten so entangled that i got caught up in providing an example of one man who launched the career of  2 black women whose fame is international, instead of  providing the name of one man whose efforts uplifted  black women collectively  to  a level even with white women. Obviously, it's arguable as to whether this question has been answered. 

 

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Cynique

instead of providing the name of one man whose efforts uplifted black women collectively to a level even with white women. Obviously, it's arguable as to whether this question has been answered.

Ahhh..tut...tut...tut!

She didn't ASK for an example of a man who uplifted Black women collectively to the level of White women!

She said.....and I quote:

"Please name one black man who has done anything to help black women build their collective economic and social standing here in the U.S. "

And later asked again:

"If you know of any other black man - wait, I'll make it easy ANY MAN who has championed the rights of black women and actually helped us inch up higher at last place - please share. I really want to know because I might have missed his work"


She made a VERY SPECIFIC REQUEST.
The requirements were:
1. He be a Black man
2. He helped Black women build thier collective (group) economic and social standing in the United States
3. Even if they remain in last place, he'd have to have atleast helped them move an inch higher

We can argue all day long over how much an "inch higher" means.......

I mean, ((arms folded)) if I wanted to be anal I could include MYSELF in that number as I've personally helped many Black women improve themselves, as well as TROY who has helped Black female authors through this website and being married to a Black woman has helped HER.
Maybe Delano can say the same if he's helped Black women when he was in the United States.

But since she means collectively help move them an "inch higher", she most likely means a reasonable amount of progress that we can actually see and compare on a national scale.
And ALL of the examples I and Troy have mentioned fit that criteria.
Getting thousands of Black women off drugs, giving them jobs, structure, education, ect....all improves their social status and economic status.


By the way, both Minister Farrakhan and Booker T. Washington helped MANY Black women....not just 1 or 2.
I provided Ava Muhammad as just one example of the THOUSANDS of Black women he has helped improve socially and economically.

The same thing with Mr. Washington.
He hired MANY Black women as teachers and admitted MANY Black females as students.....thus helping to improve and uplift the lives of Black women COLLECTIVELY during their generation and for many generations to come as a result of the education they received at the Tuskegee Institute.

The same can be said of LouOverture and Garvey.

Again, it has become obvious to me that no matter how many examples I provide or how many of the goals she demands are met....the examples will continue to be ignored and the GOAL POSTS will continue to be moved.

((shakes head))

You ladies really should be ashamed of ......deeply reflect on your behavior in this thread.

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@Pioneer1Ooooh puleeze.  Quit your whining and unsubstantiated  generalizations about "thousands of women" you know nothing about.     Farrakhan advised all of his followers to not vote in the last election and look at the misogynistic racist he helped elect. Why would you cite all of your paternalistic chauvinistic  examples and then deny that Obama fits the bill in light of the actual figures Mel provided?   Why wasn't Farrakhan helping all the professional women supposedly left bereft by the Obama administration?  i have yet to hear any black women of prominence other than his poster girl say that they are where they are because of him. It goes without saying that i or thousands of other black women have never heard of this ava woman.

I stand corrected that Mel didn't ask for the name of any black man who uplifted black women to the level of white women. She knew that was asking too much.  

I have reflected on this thread, and have come to the conclusions that black women collectively are their own best champions. The reason they are not put on a pedestal and cherished, is that black men can't  collectively get their own acts together, or get past thinking that white women are the real trophies.  

I'll let Mel speak for herself. 

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@Troy and @Pioneer1

 

Rhetoric doesn't equal evidence. Your arguments are weak.

 I have deeply reflected on my behavior in this thread.  Sadly, it is one that I've repeated throughout my life, which is hold up black men in high esteem believing:

1 - they would know or at least try to understand the history of black women here in the United States; and/or 

(it's pitiful Troy, with all your knowledge that you even thought Lincoln had anything to do with helping black women.  Many black women already held the status of "free negro" in the US.  Any child born to a free negro (women) was free... If you referring to women in the south...black enslaved women were freed but without status in America... I could go on - but I've wasted enough time trying to educate you both on the status of black women...especially when you couldn't care less.  Which brings me to my second point. Neither of you

 

2 - care enough to find the facts about how black women are regulated to the bottom rung here in the U.S. by every culture and ethnicity (Now I see that includes black men.)  

For 8 years we had a black feminist (his words) in the white house - and President Obama's policies, mandates, initiatives helped black women inch up from the bottom.. now due to selfishness of black men - There's another man in the oval office who is so jealous of President Obama that he's made it his priority to undo all the good that President Obama did for us, black women.   45's latest thing is to repeal the birth control mandate that will affect 55 million women, will lose free coverage  and it will hit black women the hardest.   Which brings me to my third point

3 - they (BM) would protect us and our interests...


What is reality is, black women are alone again.  Black women fight and protect the lives of black men. While I won't - I do think black women do because we alone give birth to black men - but for black women to look for assistance from any black man who is not a "rare air brother" such as Obama, is naive. 

So yes, I have deeply reflected on my behavior here in this thread - and sadly, my biggest fear was realized.  Black men, as a whole, don't give a lick about black women.  That's probably why it's so easy for them to leave black women to fend for themselves.

As Cynique mentioned we, black women, do our best when we fight for ourselves. We have our best interest at heart.  

Out.

 

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Troy

Now look at that.....

You started a thread DEFENDING Black women.
You were calling Time magazine to the carpet on how they were unfairly depicting Black women.

And instead of applauding you for your efforts, you ended up getting fricasseed in your own juices.

I saw it coming....
I could have stayed out, but I knew you were gonna be by yourself trying to hold it down for Black men so I felt compelled to contribute.
.....but I saw it coming.

I've seen it time and time again.
Like a woman who is abused by her no-good boyfriend but takes out her frustrations on her good male friend, cussing HIM out and calling HIM a dog as he tries to console her....

Often times the intelligent, well meaning, successful Black man is targeted for insult, ridicule, and scorn by Black women who are angry and frustrated at the behavior of the dusty foul criminal minded negroes who have ruined their lives.


Now that doesn't necessarily apply to these two ladies because I believe they're too smart to get caught up with a some dusty abusive thug.
However I DO believe that like most Black women, they are angry and frustrated in the Black man's inability to adequately provide for and protect them collectively and that's what you really hear when you read between the lines.
Infact, Mel made it a little more plain in her latest post but I was able to discern it all through out the thread.

When I realized this, I had to CATCH myself from further irritating an already raw and open wound.

 

 

Cynique and Mel

<_< Don't worry, everything's gonna be alright.

You can dry your eyes now.

Your cries have been heard, and help will be coming soon.

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

Cynique and Mel

<_< Don't worry, everything's gonna be alright.

You can dry your eyes now.

Your cries have been heard, and help will be coming soon.

 

@Pioneer1 I'm not holding my breath.  We'll be fine. Too bad in the year 2017 it's necessary for you to send such a message. At my age, i'll leave the optimism to Mel who keeps hope alive.   Thanks for your words of "encouragement".

@Delano Alvin Ailey is  worth mentioning.  He has given hundreds of black women a stage for their dancing talents which include classical ballet a field where they had not previously been show cased.  I'm not familiar with the other name you offered.  

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Contemporary Black BiographyContemporary Black BiographyThe Columbia Encyclopedia, 6th ed. 

Mitchell, Arthur

Contemporary Black Biography 
COPYRIGHT 2005 Thomson Gale
 

Arthur Mitchell

1934

Choreographer, dancer

Members of the Dance Theatre of Harlem call Arthur Mitchell the "Pied Piper of Dance." Mitchell, one of the first blacks to succeed in the field of classical ballet, founded the Dance Theatre of Harlem in 1969 in an effort to provide minority students with a chance to learn and perform classical ballet. He has been leading the troupe ever since and has presided over an extensive ballet school, worldwide tours, and performances of both classical and modern dance. Boston Globecontributor Christine Temin called Mitchell "a preacher of sorts," an artist whose "gospel is one of discipline, hard work, education, goals set and then met. His own goal, of course, was to show that blacks could dance classical ballet. He realized that aim with his Dance Theatre of Harlem, now famous for its energy, purity of style, dedicated dancers and diverse repertory."

Since its founding, Mitchell's Dance Theatre of Harlem has included a school educating hundreds of would-be dancers, as well as a group of professionalsgraduates of the schoolwho perform. The school is located in Harlem and draws many of its pupils from that struggling neighborhood. Many are on scholarship, and all are encouraged to pursue a well-rounded education. Mitchell told the Philadelphia Inquirer that his goal is to use dance "to build better human beings." He added: "The young people today, particularly minority kids and inner-city kids, they need some kind of motivation as well as compassion. We live in a very technological society. Very few people are spending time to develop the soul."

Mitchell was in a taxicab on his way to the airport in 1968 when he heard over the radio that Martin Luther King Jr. had been assassinated in Memphis. The news stunned Mitchell, and it proved a turning point in his career. He had planned to continue his work with the National Ballet Company of Brazil, which he had established two years earlier. Instead, he told the cab driver to turn around and head back into Harlem. Mitchell told the San Jose Mercury News:"After hearing of King's death, I came back to Harlem and set up a dance school in a garage. Nobody said I could do it. I started with 30 kids and two dancers, and inside of four months I had 400 kids."rs. Then we wanted to take that company of black dancers and showcase them in the city, the country, the world, to show people what black artists could do. We did that."

The founders of the Alvin Ailey and Dance Theatre of Harlem .

That's  my two. My guess is at least half the troupe are women.

@Mel Hopkins

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......see THIS is probably why people get confused about your sexuality, lol.


Nah LOL, 
much respect for the good that these 2 brothers have done for the community.
Just 2 more examples of Black men who've helped Black women.

Actually I hadn't  even heard of them before you mentioned them.
....the more you know.



Cynique

I give you Minister Farrakhan who's helped countless Black women rise up like rods and stand before the world like shining jewels......but you reject HIM like spoiled milk and call him all types of names.

But 2 gay Black men who help women dance and sing for White folks?

Oh you LOOOOVE them don't you.

But I'm not angry, I understand....((smile))

I understand why so many Black women promote the feminine Black man over the masculine one.

And because I understand, I know everything's gonna be alright.....((smile))

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@Delano  I had to delete the bulk of the citation you copied from encyclopedia.com, it was inundated with advertisements (even ads embedded in the content which you probably did not even notice.  In general, if people have to use content from another source I suggest they just excerpt from it and link to the rest.

@Pioneer1 , it is interesting that you never heard of those two guys.  You are probably right, even though you may have been joking, that the two dudes Del chose is perhaps one reason why folks confuse him as gay.  

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@Pioneer1 You're so in love with Farrakhan maybe you should have your credentials checked. You continue to aggrandize him and sing his praises but have yet  to reinforce your extravagant claims with anything other  than one puny example of the "countless" women he has uplifted to -  the level of still being under the thumb of their menfolk, including their domineering patron, Farrakhan. Accept the fact that i do not share your slavish devotion to this religious chauvinist, and dry your tears.

What did i say that would lead you to believe that i love Alvin Ailey? As opposed to you who can't gush enough adoration for Farrakhan. Accomplished, sensitive gay men who create opportunities for women are just as worthy of being credited as self-serving masculine ones who exploit women to make themselves look good.  

   

  

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@Cynique, sure I agree with you regarding their desire to appear on the cover of Time. The point I was trying to support is that Time really is not interested in uplifting Black people or women.  

@Mel Hopkins, It would not be reasonable for me to argue about the enslavement of Black people in the U.S. prior to 1865, but I will share this with you and others who may be reading conversation; Sure there were some "free" Black women in the US prior to the Emancipation Proclamation and the Proclamaintion only free the slaves in the southern slave states fighting against the Union, but historians generally agree that it lead to the abolition for all enslaved people in the United States culminating in the passing of the 13th Amendment, which made slavery illegal in 1865.

I argue is one thing that Lincoln did is vastly more important than everything that Obama did, not just for Black women, for the entire country.

“I never, in my life, felt more certain that I was doing right, than I do in signing this paper ...If my name ever goes into history it will be for this act, and my whole soul is in it." President Lincoln 

“Some man who seemed to be a stranger (a United States officer, I presume) made a little speech and then read a rather long paper—the Emancipation Proclamation, I think. After the reading we were told that we were all free, and could go when and where we pleased. My mother, who was standing by my side, leaned over and kissed her children, while tears of joy ran down her cheeks. She explained to us what it all meant, that this was the day for which she had been so long praying, but fearing that she would never live to see." —Booker T. Washington

“When you are dead and in Heaven, in a thousand years that action of yours will make the Angels sing your praises." Hannah Johnson, mother of a Northern Black soldier, writing to President Abraham Lincoln about the Emancipation Proclamation, July 31, 1863

I think Hannah Johnson would, were she alive today, be perplexed by our conversations on this issue. But again arguing the relative merits of this action makes little sense...

Mel, I'm also profoundly saddened to read your statement, "Black men, as a whole, don't give a lick about black women." I sure it is not a sentiment shared by the Brothers participating in this conversation and it is definitely now a sentiment demonstrated by our individual behavior.  

This conversation, and the one about Viola's picture, that prompted it was initiated to illustrate a diss to Black women. In the case of Beyonce's cover, many Black feminists also agree with the points I've made (albeit some more strongly than others). My starting this conversation does not come from a place of disdain for Black women, but from one of love.

This honestly is one reason why I've opted out of social media two years ago, and am considering doing the same for my business. If one subject one's self to this media they will be inundated with messages both subliminal and overt which denigrate Black people. So, it is very understandable why some can believe that "Black men, as a whole, don't give a lick about black women."  

In my circles, which are more typical that the media would have you believe.  Black men fight hard to uplift and support both Black women and the Black community.  Most of us go unheralded and ignored by social media (which has become mainstream).  This is by design.  You see, pushing positive images by Black people who are not celebrities nd who are doing positive things is not as profitable, as covering Black dysfunction and celebrities (combine dysfunction and celebrity and you are golden!)

Even when mainstream media do celebrate the accomplishments of celebrities it is often done with a slight.  Obviously, some of are more aware, or in tune, to these slights than others.  Pointing out these perceived slights of our women is not an indication of not giving "a lick about black women" it is, again, an indication of love.

 

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You get high marks for your sincerity, Troy.  Let me just say, black men love their mothers. Probably their sisters. Most assuredly their daughters.  But the one area where they have fallen short and which how, time and time again, when so many of the brightest and best of them raise the hopes of black women ready to stand by their side or accept their support, is the disappointment that occurs when their black heroes turn out to be married to white women. This has always been considered the ultimate betrayal, whether it is a justified perception or not.  

Of course there are millions of exceptions to this pattern, but it remains a specter in the relationship between black men and women.   it has nothing to do with social media.  It is something that is ingrained in the slave mentality as it exists in modern society.  Black women shared  the burden with their men and strove to hold the family together but that was all they were good for and what their role was.  What better reward for a black man's struggle and achievements than the ultimate prize that all men desire: a white woman. If black women could  be elevated to this level, this would bolster their collective morale and improve their collective image.This is not something that black men can  bring about because they have no influence.  Black women have to wage this battle alone, armed with self love. 

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3 hours ago, Troy said:

Hannah Johnson, mother of a Northern Black soldier, writing to President Abraham Lincoln about the Emancipation Proclamation, July 31, 1863

black mothers, if not all mothers want the best for their children.  So if all Hannah was or considered to be was a vessel and host to bear children - then this would be the highlight of her life. She could only hope her son would look at for her now that he was free and able to participate freely in society.  Unfortunately Hannah was not; and I don't think she would live to see herself being an agent of her own life either.

 

@Troy, I can't continue this discussion with you. I'm exhausted.  You are beyond tone deaf on why it is important to have black men champion the rights of black women.  You're in good company though because a lot of black men are too.. 

It is what it is. 

I'm just thankful President Obama wasn't.

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@Delano, Yes, Alvin Ailey and Arthur Mitchell are inspiring and their support through the arts created avenues for talented black women that were previously closed to them.

These two used their male privilege to open up a venue for black women to shine in an area that was previously closed to them.  I didn't even realize they were gay - so that means not only did they fight for their rights quietly - they also fought to have black women "center stage".  

Thank you.

By the way, there's another black man in history that was a supporter of women's rights.  Frederick Douglass.   I gave him the side-eye though because he asked the suffragettes to stop fighting for their right to vote, to help black men get the vote. smh

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Douglass also divorced his black wife and married a white women, but his black wife was apparently okay with this because at some point all 3 of them lived together in the same house. :o A good ol sista putting her man's needs before her own?? :(

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Perhaps, @Mel Hopkins, I guess the biggest difference between our opinions is that I do not distinguish the fight for Black women's rights with the fight for Black people.

Your points, on this issue, are indeed lost on me.  This, however, is not for a lack of trying.  

@Cynique (anyone), do you see what I'm missing?  If so please give me a simple summary. 

Cynique, I see you mirror, more or less, Mel's statement that I found so sad. It is not just sad but it is also a bit surprising that you separated from Mel by both geography and a generation share this sentiment.  Your statement is more nuanced and revealing some of the complexity in the situation, but the conclusions are similar.

Black power does not, can not, and never has just come from just one gender.  This male/female battle is white people's mess.

Now I know full well many Black are full of self-hate, but I really did not appreciate how Black women feel about Black men.  Now Cynique and Mel do not represent all Black women and I'm sure I can find Black women who disagree with them. Still, I hope their opinion is not widespread.  I hope my daughters do not grow to feel this way...

I have an anecdote that I will share in a separate conversation because it is related to this conversation but from a very different angle.  It talks to a Black women not supporting Black men, namely me. It was a situation that perplexed me more than is bothered me because I never experienced such an obvious situation of a Black woman not supporting me before...  I did not view it as a Black woman not supporting me I saw this as a Black person not supporting me.  Perhaps I'm naive.

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Cynique maybe her "needs" were being met. 

There is inequality alonger the gender divide. As evidenced by the homophobia while discussing race amongst our selves.  Troy have you been you the ballet. 

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@TroyPerhaps i have taken you for granted since you have named a forum after me and provided me with a broad   arena to express my views, as well as promoted my book in your newsletter. I guess it  is my shortcoming that i have never felt empowered by this because it doesn't really impact on my life or to my knowledge collectively uplift black women. i don't consider myself an inspiration to them or do i look upon myself as a successful author or outstanding forum moderator who inspires others.  But i do appreciate and have always acknowledged that you are a well-intentioned black man who deserves admiration.  Again i express my gratitude.  This black man/black woman dynamic is just so complicated it's hard to sort out. 

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@Delano, I've seen both the Dance Theater of Harlem and Alvin Alley. While I'm not an avid support of dance, I've attended quite a few performances and have even made contributions.  

@Cynique I know :)  

I don't confuse disagreement with a lack of appreciation.  More importantly, I and many others I'm sure, have been thoroughly enriched by your presence here. I only wish that even more people benefit from your wisdom and skill as a writer. 

Here is my prediction: In the not too distant future, when people tire of corporate control of the platforms in which they engage with each other, they will return to to indie platforms.  When that happens Cynique's Corner will become a very popular discussion forum.  People will read you wisdom, humor, and cynism and regret not participating sooner.  

 

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1 hour ago, Troy said:

This, however, is not for a lack of trying.  

@Troy, I know...actually, I feel it. 

This is why I'm glad you at least entertained the discussion.  The one thing about discussions  is really not to change someone's POV, it's about helping each other understand THERE IS ANOTHER POV... you and I are now aware there's another language other than our own. We may not be fluent it in but we know it exist. :thumbs up:

2 hours ago, Cynique said:

Douglass also divorced his black wife and married a white women, but his black wife was apparently okay with this because at some point all 3 of them lived together in the same house

@Cynique Oh snap!  I just can't LOL

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1 hour ago, Cynique said:

This black man/black woman dynamic is just so complicated it's hard to sort out. 

Exactly! For me it's not an individual thing'. Individually I've had a great relationships with some black men  They've supported me as if I were their little sister... So many black men have helped me with my career and many have taken me under their wings - when I've been too naive to understand ways to fight in the world.  But that's individual relationships and love.  @Troy, your mentoring and support of me in this digital world is priceless!  

Yet this doesn't happen as a unified front.

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There are different levels of sexism. There are the active misogynist and the passive there is no issue. So if we swapped race for sex is it any different? 

I have had White Racist have meals and drinks with me. Because we have a personal relationship that overrides their racism. And perhaps that i the issue. There can be an adversarial relationship between men and women, Light and Dark, Straight and not Straight. So it is not always easy to remove this multivalent matrix to look at the individual component.

 

How can a divided people have a united front @Mel Hopkins

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9 minutes ago, Delano said:

How can a divided people have a united front @Mel Hopkins

@Delano

LOL that's how this  topic took that tangential turn... Troy stated "that's another thing that divides us...

This is like the "Niagara Falls" Abbott & Costello joke  - slowly I turn... step by step and I say, "DIVIDE US", DIVIDE US???...

For the majority of women, we cannot be divided from those we give birth to.  Male infants who will later become men literally grow to humans in our bodies and come to this planet through us.  Men carry our mtDNA (mitochondrial DNA), the same molecule that contains the ATP ( adenosine triphosphate)  which is said to be the source of all energy for life... Yes, I'm being dramatic but it's for effect.  Division does not compute on a molecular level...So mentally it's a difficult concept to process.

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@Mel HopkinsThere's something weird about me remembering that Abbot and Costello schtick.  How in the world do know about it??  In grade school, me and my friends used  go around saying "slowly i turned, step-by step" and then add whatever we did or were going to do.  Unbelievable!  i looked up the year this picture came out and it was 1941!

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12 hours ago, Cynique said:

How in the world do know about it??

@Cynique I go by the name "Medea Junkee' " on Instagram... LOL.   When it comes to media - there's not much I haven't consumed... I used to watch a lot of news during the week when I was just a kid. Walter Cronkite, Dan Rather, John Johnson, Ernie Anastos and Carol Martin (she was a black woman anchoring the 6 o'clock news and my inspiration)  were my media heroes. (gosh I'm such a nerd)

On the weekends, my parents allowed me to watch as much television as I wanted.

Growing up in New York, you could get your fill of the The Bowery Boys, Abbott and Costello shows and movies, Bob Hope/Bing Crosby buddy flicks on Sundays.    On Saturdays, you could watch cartoons all morning on the network channels  followed by a lot of old comedy. thrillers and horror movies on the independent broadcast channels such as WPIX, WOR and WNEW. "Creature Feature and Chiller theater come to mind.  

Our cartoons were filled with Western Civilization cultural references so I got introduced to classical music compositions early on thanks to Bugs Bunny.  I learned a bit about the south from Foghorn Leghorn Rooster who happened to be my dad's favorite (he was really into cartoons too)  I learned about ingenuity from Wile E Coyote and the Road Runner (another of my dad's favorites). I then learned a lot about grammar and usage , civics and safety via School House Rocks....

By the way, I learned later that a lot of our old cartoons were censored to cut out the racist references such as black-face, mammy references etc... (so again, there was a certain amount of sheltering when growing up in the North.  Speaking of which, do you know  there's no mention of race on our birth certificates .  I learned that those born in south are identified by race when they are born. But I digress

So yep - I got my old school knowledge of Abbott and Costello, 'n'em  because New York broadcast media kept the 40s, 50s, 60s alive well into the 90s .  :P

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@Mel Hopkins You are such a cosmopolitan, versatile, bright, well-traveled, well-read, unique person who has led such a fantastic life that you are a living embodiment of all that life has to offer.  it's a pleasure to know someone as interesting as you. 

And you are so right about the window to the world that television provided back in its heyday.  There was much to be learned by watching it especially as you say, when it came to American culture.  Did you ever get a chance to see any of the old Oscar Marceaux black films that were shown back in the day? They were really treasures.  

This is why i chide Troy from time to time about his having such contempt for TV, There is much to be gained on the way to learning a little bit about a lot of things through watching television.  Nowadays if you are selective in your viewing there is still  a broad spectrum to be observed on television about the world and the life and times that we live in.  

I was particularly piqued in your remarks about Bugs Bunny which brought to mind  my oldest grandson who was in the wrong place at the wrong time and was shot down in a drive by killing at age 22.  He was very attracted to the street life and tried to take on the identity of homeboy from the hood something that required him to adopt an alter ego and speak Ebonics in order to impress who he wanted to be his peers.  Whenever he and i talked he always spoke the way he was raised to.  Anyway he was introduced to classical music via Bug Bunny cartoons when he was a little boy and came to like it as much as gangsta rap. i always think of him whenever i hear "Spring Song" by Mendelssohm.  

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I didn't consider they could be gay. Until it was suggested that they and me by extension could be gay.

It's not relevant. What is interesting is that liking art makes one gay. We'll all rappers are gay because they are poets. Lynn Swann was a Superbowl champion and didn't hide the fact he took Ballet classes. As a kid we saw Black Black Theatre and went to the museum. But i was also into hip hop.  Yeah i can scratch mix and match beats. And I was nice with my hands. 

Like i remember Dr Lenny Gunther telling us we had it aĺl wrong. Surfing aint a white boy sport . Hawaiians Polynesians and Pacific islanders were on it. 

Stupidity Brawn and hyper violence and sexuality. Thats keeping it real for some folks. How's that working for us?

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Again, @Delano, I suggest the notion that, "Stupidity Brawn and hyper violence and sexuality" is what makes a Black man--otherwise you're gay is nonsense feed to up by the media and even more so by social media.

Now I know @Cynique, does not agree with this, but she was fortunate to grow up in a world--not where these images did not exist--but where they were not constantly driven into your head like a pile driver.  Today people walk around, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, with devices in their hands feeding them a constant stream of stereotypes and other nonsense psychometrically designed to keep you engaged, dumb and easily manipulated. These stereotypes are becoming greatly reinforced.

Don't ask me to present a scientific study to prove what I just wrote.  There have been plenty of books that touch on the subject which I have read and have previously shared.  But even these books are obsolete as the technology is rapidly changing and becoming more effective.

@Mel Hopkins, I know exactly what you are talking about with the retrospective on TV. But I suspects that would only mean something to someone who was in NYC in the 70's.  Relatively speaking we have a much larger selection of channels and programming than most.  In many places during that time, there were only 3 or 4 stations and those did not broadcast 24 hours a day.

@Cynique, what your grandson did is called "code switching," I did it until I was in my mid-twenties.  I stopped because I was no longer spending time in the 'hood.  I can't to it any longer because the lingo has changed and I rather speak do the way I do, than coming across as "frontin' (phony)."  I know where I come from and have nothing to prove.

Unfortunately, many of us never grow out of that.  We have all seen s middle aged men behaving and dressing like a 20-something.  In fact, this is the effect that middle-aged rappers go for and they look silly, juvenile, to me.  Here again is a message that we are hit with constantly--Black man behave like a child. 

Again, one would have to be sensitive to this, as some of it is almost subliminal, but I can give you MANY examples.  

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