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Pioneer1

Actually Troy.....

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@Pioneer1Oh, quit taking bows and cherry pickin.  Long before you insisted on equating knowledge with comprehension and subsequently offering your example, i gave the example of me knowing all the exponents of Einstein's E=MC2,  but went on to say that i did not understand it!  I contended from the beginning that having knowledge about or being aware of something does not necessarily means that you comprehend its implications. And i noted that a mystery is an example of this.

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On 1/14/2018 at 9:09 PM, Delano said:

How is it you can explain something you don't know? 


@Delano that was a typo... I will go correct it now...

13 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

This proves to me that you AGREED with my assesment but refrained from admiting such.

 

@Pioneer1  I don't remember joining in on that discussion between you and Cynique..  I remember your discussion with @Cynique being more nuanced.  

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Cynique

https://aalbc.com/tc/profile/5568-pioneer1/Oh, quit taking bows and cherry pickin. Long before you insisted on equating knowledge with comprehension and subsequently offering your example, i gave the example of me knowing all the exponents of Einstein's E=MC2, but went on to say that i did not understand it! I contended from the beginning that having knowledge about or being aware of something does not necessarily means that you comprehend its implications. And i noted that a mystery is an example of this.


That wasn't Mel's point....or mine.

OUR point was....lol.....that simply having information and facts doesn't mean you KNOW something.
Your point was the opposite.


 



Mel

I don't remember joining in on that discussion between you and Cynique..  I remember your discussion with @Cynique being more nuanced.  

No you didn't join the discussion (if you want to call it that) between me and Cynique; nor were you obliged to.
I was just making an observation about how you actually agreed with my position (that you can have information about something but still not "know" it)  but for some reason refrained from stating it.

You commented on a lot in the thread, but when it came to our particular discussion...you mysteriously "got lost", lol.

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On 1/15/2018 at 9:14 PM, Cynique said:

...I contended from the beginning that having knowledge about or being aware of something does not necessarily means that you comprehend its implications.

 

3 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

OUR point was....lol.....that simply having information and facts doesn't mean you KNOW something.
Your point was the opposite.

this is a good example of how your mind works. if you can't see that what i said is not the opposite of what you said, then you can't think straight.  

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That's debatable. Check out the definitions of knowledge. And substantiate your assertion.  

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Knowledge Facts, information, and skills acquired through experience or education; the theoretical or practical understanding of a subject.

 

information

 
 

NOUN

mass noun
  • 1Facts provided or learned about something or someone.

     

    knowledgeable

    (also knowledgable)
     

    ADJECTIVE

    • Intelligent and well informed.

       

      1Having or showing knowledge of a subject or situation.

     

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@DelI don't know that the definitions you supplied supported your assertion any more than they do mine, and that's an example of you supplying me with facts and info and me not being able to apply this knowledge when it comes to how it is supposed to prove your point.  A lot of this debate is about interpretation, etymology, and semantics.  Anyway, I am burnt out from going back and forth on the subject which seems destined to remain at an impasse, so I will simple quote what i said to Pioneer in another post about this subject.     "In my book,  knowledge per se is not comprehension; it's being aware of, or knowing the components(facts and info) about a subject, and this may or may not lead to comprehending what this data indicates. So you can have knowledge without comprehension, but you can't have comprehension without knowledge. (Wisdom is how wisely you apply what you comprehend.)"  And i will sign off by saying we have to agree to disagree.  

 

 

 

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On ‎1‎/‎18‎/‎2018 at 8:37 AM, Delano said:

Knowledge is different from information and facts. 

 

 


Absolutely!

 

 

 

Cynique

 

"In my book, knowledge per se is not comprehension; it's being aware of, or knowing the components(facts and info) about a subject,

This is "redundant logic".

You can't say the definition of knowledge is "knowing" anything....let alone facts and info....because you can't use the same word to define itself.

Your "book" is inaccurate.
Perhaps you should consider RECALLING it.....lol.

Again, you can't KNOW anything without understanding or comprehending it....to a degree.

You don't have to understand EVERYTHING about it, but you do have to have a measure of comprehension of what you're aware of.


Here's some information for you:

der mezliach bon houverr

Now that I've given you the information, you have it.....but do you KNOW what it means?

 

 

 

 

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@Pioneer1 Oh give it a rest! You can't tell me what i can't do or have to do  in your effort to support your argument which is dependent upon  how you personally define information and knowledge. i  can likewise tell you what you can't do when i am interpreting  my pov.  (The first rule of a debate is to never argue with anyone who supplies their own definitions or criteria.)  Knowledge has many definitions as Del illustrated, and it all boils down to debaters cherry-picking which definition  applies to their contention.  As obvious as this is, you can't even figure that out.  

 

 In answer to the same old stupid  repetitive example you persist in giving is:  I am aware that what you have written  is a series of letters which i cannot translate. This is comparable to having knowledge about what i see.   i do not know what the foreign words mean because knowledge is not necessarily synonymous with comprehension.   Knowledge is a multi-faceted word. That's my final say on the subject.   So take it or leave it.  Sheeze.

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"Actually YOUR stance on "race" is illogical.

Knowing that race is a CATEGORY, logically speaking there MUST be more than one option.

So for you to take the position that there is only ONE race....the human race.

Is like saying that there is only ONE flavor of soda pop....the "soda pop" flavor.

See my point?"

 

 

No I don't. Did you know in 1950, the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization (UNESCO) issued a statement asserting that all humans belong to the same species and that “race” is not a biological reality but a myth. This was a summary of the findings of an international panel of anthropologists, geneticists, sociologists, and psychologists? And I'm sure you are aware the Journal of Science produced an article entitled, "Taking Race out of Human Genetics". They are not the only group of scientists and geneticists to advocate the same position. But of course your scientific research and verifiable documentation can and will prove them wrong. Correct? I am very curious to hear your argument that clearly debunks and proves their advocation flawed and unacceptably incorrect. Please give us a reference for your body of research and documentation. I'm very open minded and curious as to what your particular counter-science has produced....

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@Xeon, You'll discover none of this will matter to @Pioneer1.  Once my man believes something, he does not change his mind.  He will never accept the what modern science tells us if it conflicts with his world view.

 

But he is not alone, many people are comfortable with the racial categories and the stereotypes that go alone with them... it helps them make sense of the very nuanced beings humans are.

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Xeon

I'm very open minded


Yeah, it's TOO open....and that's part of the problem.


Your mind is open to whatever claims WHITE scientists make and you're easily influenced by whatever they publish as fact.

The problem is, the SAME people (Western scientific body) who defined race in the first place.....now say it's does not exist.
And instead of questioning how they arrived at their conclusions you just go along with it.

Which means you don't have a mind of your OWN to do your OWN research and come up with your OWN findings.....all you can do is quote theirs like an elementary school child seeking a sticker to put on his forehead.

You act as if the sources you mentioned had their information handed down to them from the heavens.

Pathetic......

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@Pioneer1, do you believe there are other galaxies besides our own?  If so why, if not why not?

 

Do you believe in the existence of electrons?  Again please say why or why not?

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Troy
 

I believe both.

But that belief is "weak"....meaning I don't give full confidence to it because those conclusions along with the evidence that supports them were PRESENTED to me by Western science.
Niether I nor anyone I personally know has verified the existence of them with personal observation.

I think I know why you asked me those questions.....
To establish a basis of belief as if to say, if I believe in THAT aspect of Western science then why wouldn't I believe in the current racial claims of Western science.

And if that WAS your reason, the answers are simple:
1. Unlike galaxies and electrons that I haven't seen yet to either accept or reject, I actually SEE various races so I KNOW they exist....despite what SOME scientists claim.
2. Unlike the various racial theories where some claim race exists and others claim race doesn't....no one that I know of is running around claiming that electrons and galaxies DON'T exist. So I have little reason NOT to believe that the scientists are right on their existence.

Black people should get into a habit of verifying things for THEMSELVES instead of relying on White people....scientists or non-scientists....to do all of the work and hands on research.

How many Black archeologists are actually digging in the grounds of Africa or South America finding things?
Too many Black people JUST go to school, sit up in the class, and let those who REALLY KNOW tell them what they should know instead of verifying it for themselves so that they can KNOW what they believe.

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I actually asked the questions to point out inconsistencies in your reasoning.

 

True, you cannot see electrons or galaxies with the naked eye, but you can't see chromosomes either.

 

You state that you don't trust so-called "Western science" (is this code for "white science") and extol the virtues of one doing their own research. But I don't believe that you've done any research in genetics, astronomy, or  particle physics.

 

It is fascinating  that you have no trouble dismissing science and feel comfortable promoting what you believe.

 

Again, this not at all unusual; most people do it everyday; albeit not to the same extent as you.  People are usually comfortable shrugging their shoulders and saying "I dunno."

 

Do you believe the world is flat? I assume you have never been to outerspace to observe this on your own. 

 

 

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Troy

My thinking isn't inconsistent.
It's quite reliable, I just have my OWN way of accepting, processing, and categorizing information instead of the way typically taught in Western academia.

When information is presented to me I classify it as:

1. Information I KNOW to be true based on experience or observation.
2. Information I don't actually know but just BELIEVE based on the evidence.
3. Information that I don't know nor have enough information to have an opinion on
4. Information that I don't actually know and DON'T BELIEVE based on the evidence.
5. Information that I KNOW NOT to be true based on experience or observation


When you ask me about electrons and whether the Earth is round or flat, questions like this fall into the 2nd category because I'm not in a position to verify the information I'm given on these subjects but they make logical sense to me based on the evidence.

But that's the best I can give you.

How can I or anyone else who haven't actually seen the planet with their own eyes from a distance sit up and claim they KNOW what shape the Earth is?

All you're going by is what other's TELL you.....and you believe them.

It doesn't mean they're wrong, it's just a more accurate way of relating information.

For me, knowledge has to be POSTERIORI.....not simply priori.

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See this is what I mean:

 

1. Information I KNOW to be true based on experience or observation.
Experiences and observations are what we call anecdotes and you have a long history of using this method to argue. What you know using the method can be utterly wrong.  Is this how you know there is a genetic basis for race?


2. Information I don't actually know but just BELIEVE based on the evidence.
This seems reasonable (assuming by "evidence" you mean your own experience or observations).

3. Information that I don't know nor have enough information to have an opinion on
Information you don't know would just be called ignorance. Most of us, I suspect, don't realize how much we don't know about a given subject.


4. Information that I don't actually know and DON'T BELIEVE based on the evidence.
How can you not believe something you don't know?


5. Information that I KNOW NOT to be true based on experience or observation

Again you can't know anything based upon your experiences.  Unless you are suggesting that you've been conducting experiment in lab and have had others have replicated your findings.  

 

I simply read, watch documentaries, consume information on the web and a variety of other places to draw conclusions -- I HAVE to rely others.  I believe our own personal observations and experiences are just the beginning of acquiring knowledge -- not the end.

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Man, I had to re-do this post because I saw so many mistakes........


 

 

Troy

Experiences and observations are what we call anecdotes and you have a long history of using this method to argue. What you know using the method can be utterly wrong. Is this how you know there is a genetic basis for race?


The same method of observation that you are attempting to trivalize is actually what most scientists use in their experiments to GAIN THEIR KNOWLEDGE....and give it to you.

If a person's mind is sound, they don't abuse alcohol/drugs, and aren't prone to hallucinations or delusions...how can what they witness or experience be "wrong"?


And to answer your question, ofcourse.
With my sense of sight I can clearly see the physical features between human beings that allow them to be classified into different races and sexes.
 

 

 

How can you not believe something you don't know?


Because I'm using MY definition of "knowledge".
Which is information that has been VERIFIED by either personal experience or personal observation.

And just like there are many things I don't KNOW but I believe based on evidence, there are many things that I don't know OR BELIEVE because of a lack of evidence.

An example of how you can not believe something you don't know is this......

If I'm sitting in a room with no window but with a tin roof, and you come in the room and tell me it's hailing outside.
If I don't hear any hail hitting the roof, I'm not going to believe you.

I DON'T KNOW that it's hailing, meaning....
I haven't been outside to experience the hail.
I don't have a window to see out of and observe the hail.

So I don't KNOW it's hailing.

Now add to that the fact that I didn't hear it hitting the tin roof....no evidence either.

So I don't know it NOR do I believe it.

 

Again you can't know anything based upon your experiences. Unless you are suggesting that you've been conducting experiment in lab and have had others have replicated your findings.


Do you have to do experiment in a laboratory to KNOW that you have no hair on the top of your head?

Do you have to do experiments in a laboratory to KNOW that your skin is brown?

Do you have to do experiments in a laboratory to know that women typically have higher pitched voices than men?

Nah brother, you don't need a laboratory and do extensive research to verify these facts.
Just your basic observation skills are enough to confirm them.


simply read, watch documentaries, consume information on the web and a variety of other places to draw conclusions -- I HAVE to rely others.


And this is part of the problem of why so many Black people remain in the condition we are in.

We rely too much on the information OTHERS are giving us instead of getting the information we need OURSELVES.

Is there any wonder why Black people are disproportionately affected with diabetes, certain forms of cancers, HIV, and other diseases.....when they rely on OTHERS to give them information and treat them instead of doing their own research to treat themselves????


We don't HAVE TO rely on others for most of the information we get...we just CHOOSE TO out of laziness and lack of confidence in our own abilities.

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..but you need to do experience to get to the point where you can sequence gene, tear atoms apart, and to observe the cosmos.

 

And don't be so confident about what you see.  The you remember the Blue/Gold dress image even everyday optical illusions should cause to question everything you see.  Of course we all know how unreliable eyewitness testimony is.

 

We, all people, MUST rely on the knowledge of others.  This is the very thing that has allowed humanity to advance.

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On 2/7/2018 at 10:51 PM, Pioneer1 said:

When information is presented to me I classify it as:

1. Information I KNOW to be true based on experience or observation.
2. Information I don't actually know but just BELIEVE based on the evidence.
3. Information that I don't know nor have enough information to have an opinion on
4. Information that I don't actually know and DON'T BELIEVE based on the evidence.
5. Information that I KNOW NOT to be true based on experience or observation

 

Brilliant. That is how I classify information as well.

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It's all about objectivity and subjectivity.  Influenced by their egos, subjective people latch onto to what resonates with them  through personal experiences, becoming so enamoured of anecdotal evidence that they reject any other view, subsequently descending into a cognitive dissonance mind set.  Objective people tend to be curious and flexible and consider all views, gravitating toward those which extensive studies and experiments have proven to be reliable and authentic.    

 

Most people are a combination of the 2. Nobody is perfect or infallible.  I try to keep an open mind and appreciate individuals who do the same. Race is such a multi-faceted issue made even more volatile by the resentment and even paranoia of laymen attacking the messenger while denying the message that scientists are  conveying and verifying.   

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Pioneer may nrit make sense to you but his conclusions are not illogical. If you accept his assumptions his conclusions are logical.

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Troy

 

 

We, all people, MUST rely on the knowledge of others. This is the very thing that has allowed humanity to advance


I didn't say we didn't have to rely on the knowledge of others.
My point is BLACK PEOPLE need to make up a substantial number of those "others"; instead of constantly soley relying on the information that White people relay to us.

If you look at much of the technology of the world, it's not "humanity" advancing, it's White people advancing and Black folks just going along for the ride....lol.

How many Black people are actually down in South America studying the ecology of the Amazon, or building rockets to go to Mars, or spicing genes and making clones???

We let White people do it......then run to the university or go to youtube and let THEM tell US what they found.

This is not only lazy, but silly.

We need DIRECT KNOWLEDGE that we gain from our own expriments and reasoning that we can use to benefit ourselves instead of expecting that some balding White man with a grey pony tail and glasses will give us all the information we need.

 

 

 

 

Zaji

I like you too!
I believe you mentioned something about being from Jamaica.
I have yet to meet a Carrribean woman I DIDN'T like...lol.



Cynique

 

Objective people tend to be curious and flexible and consider all views, gravitating toward those which extensive studies and experiments have proven to be reliable and authentic.


Sounds to me like THESE type of people would rather believe what other people tell them rather than what they've seen with their own two eyes....lol.

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@Pioneer1 come on man there are Black people involved in all aspect of science.  Man, Black people invented science! 

 

Are you actually trying to suggest that science is biased because Black people, in your opinion, do not dominate the fields?!  You don't trust genetics or climate change because Black people are not dominating the fields?! 

 

You know Neil deGrasse Tyson believes in climate change and the fact that there is only one race.  You know the continent of Africa is full of scientists who believe this too.

 

I'm used to your use of racial stereotypes, but sometimes the things you say are really quite astonishing.

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I know that Black people invented science and I know there are Black scientists.

Knowledge is knowledge.

Truth is truth.

It doesn't have a color or race to it.......

BUT THOSE PRESENTING THAT KNOWELDGE AND TRUTH TO US DO HAVE A RACE/COLOR TO THEM!

And if those who are presenting that knowledge are racist with evil ulterior motives then they will skew that knowledge, hide it, and corrupt it.
And every other scientist THAT FOLLOW in their footsteps through that same scientific methods they practice will be just as confused and corrupted as they are....either wittingly or unwittingly.

Which is the problem I have with many of these so-called Black scientists who get their training from Western academic institutions.

They are just getting hand-me-down knowledge from smarter even more educated White folks.
But much of that knowledge has been skewed and corrupted.


I consider George Washington Carver a Black scientist who practiced Black or neutral science.

He had his own laboratory where he went directly into nature HIMSELF and actually talked to the plants and studied them up close with his own hands and arrived at his OWN conclusions.
And invented over 300 product just from the peanut alone.

When Black people practice science in OUR OWN way using OUR OWN methods un-encumbered by the restrictions of the typical Western scientific format....we excell at phenomenal levels.

It's the same way.....not just with science....but with everything else.
When Black folks freed themselves from the restrictions of Western music and made our own....we produced JAZZ, MOTOWN, RAP.

We had the entire world bouncing and rocking to what we produced.....because we did it OUR WAY, not their way.

If we'd only practice science OUR WAY...we could cure the planet and everyone on it.



 

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2 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:

We have the entire world bouncing and rocking to our beat.....because we did it OUR WAY.

 

I've noticed this in general as well. When we step outside of the status quo in every area of knowledge, either discarding some ideas or expounding on some ideas, we invent/create great things.

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57 minutes ago, zaji said:

 

I've noticed this in general as well. When we step outside of the status quo in every area of knowledge, either discarding some ideas or expounding on some ideas, we invent/create great things.


I noticed this even as a teenager working for and with White people on jobs.

White people would do everything the hard way and insist on everyone else following their lead.
Even if I found an easier and better way to mop a floor or sort papers.....they'd often times either refuse to do it that way and TRY to force me not to either OR they'd take the easy way and MAKE it hard by increasing the production.....lol.

In other words.............

If a worker had to clearn atleast one floor of an office building every night and this would take them the entire night only to go home tired-
If you found a way to get the entire project done in half the time and go home feeling fine, those bastards would try to FORCE you to either stop doing it that way OR force you to do TWO FLOORS in one night!!

As much as I critize the Asians, one thing I notice about them is when there are NO White people around and they're running their own businesses their way....it runs much smoother and far more effiencent.

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I can't entertain stereotypes -- indeed they are racist. 

 

Hey @Mel Hopkins, can you make a graphic of a bald headed brown skinned man lying prostrate from exasperation.  Like the woman you posted recently?

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Troy
 

I can't entertain stereotypes -- indeed they are racist.


If RACE doesn't exist....how can RACISM and RACIST stereotypes exist?

It would be like me calling the Easter Bunny a buck-tooth fool and you getting upset and saying I shouldn't insult the Easter Bunny that way.

If there is no White race or Black race then how can any talk of them be considered racist?


 

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Troy

Race is fiction. Racism is real.


Come on man....lol.

If RACE is fiction then it logically follows that all claims of RACE-ISM are also ficticious.

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@Pioneer1, of course the "claims" of racists are fictitious; that does not mean racism does not exist. Are you deliberately being obtuse? 

 

@Delano, is this an example of Pioneer's superior logic?

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Troy

 

of course the "claims" of racists are fictitious; that does not mean racism does not exist. Are you deliberately being obtuse?
 

I didn't say the claims of "racists" are ficticious; I said that IF the concept of race is fiction.....as you say....then that means that the concept of RACISM and all the CLAIMS OF RACISM would also be ficticious.

In other words.......

If race doesn't exist....then that would mean that the claims that so-called Black people make about being racially discriminated against because of their race are a bunch of nonsense.

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{deep sigh} @Pioneer1, Racism is real.  The claims being made by so called Black people are perfectly valid.  However, the foundation for the claims made by racist, like white superiority, are baseless. 

 

I no longer think you are trying to be obtuse, sorry about that.

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2 hours ago, Troy said:

Racism is real.  The claims being made by so called Black people are perfectly valid.  However, the foundation for the claims made by racist, like white superiority, are baseless. 

@Troy

 

Yes. I agree. It is irrelevant whether race is real or not real in this context. Racism is real because it is a behavior based on a belief. If a psycho BELIEVES that I am a demon and that all demons sent by Satan should be killed, he/she will ACT based on this erroneous belief.  Am I a demon? Maybe. Maybe not. But it won't matter to the psycho who has power over me and thinks I'm a demon, and, who might even be hallucinating and physically seeing me as a demon. He will try to kill me based on what HE sees, NOT what I see and believe I know to be true about myself.  

 

To me, the truth matters, but it doesn't matter to me when it comes to someone harming me. Don't touch me...I don't care if something is true or false. Believe whatever you want, just leave me alone and don't oppress me because of your belief if I'm not bothering you physically. I don't have the energy for people's psychosis. That's my thing.

 

 

 

 

Edited by zaji

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Troy

{deep sigh} @Pioneer1, Racism is real. The claims being made by so called Black people are perfectly valid. However, the foundation for the claims made by racist, like white superiority, are baseless.



Lol........
See, this is what Del is talking about when he refers to you and Cynique having "emotional" reactions to what I say instead of meeting me on a strictly logical level.

Instead of sighing and groaning and talking about how baseless and silly the argument is, why not just DISPROVE it?

The fact is, race is a CONCEPT.....an idea
And it's very hard and next to impossible to invalidate a CONCEPT.





 


Zaji

Yes. I agree. It is irrelevant whether race is real or not real in this context. Racism is real because it is a behavior based on a belief. If a psycho BELIEVES that I am a demon and that all demons sent by Satan should be killed, he/she will ACT based on this erroneous belief. Am I a demon? Maybe. Maybe not. But it won't matter to the psycho who has power over me and thinks I'm a demon, and, who might even be hallucinating and physically seeing me as a demon. He will try to kill me based on what HE sees, NOT what I see and believe I know to be true about myself.


Absolutely, and to add on to what you said......

One of the problems with trying to deny the existence of race is the fact that racists are RUNNING much of the society we live in!

Whether TROY believe in the concept of race or not:
The DOCTOR he goes to see might.
The POLICE OFFICER who stops him on the street might.
The PRESIDENT who lead the nation he's living in might.
The STAFF of his place of employement may have individuals who DO see race.

And if THESE people not only believe in the concept of race but also see THEIR race as superior and TROY'S as inferior then this will pose very real problems for him.

So it would be wise to understand and accept the concept of race whether one thinks it's valid or not.

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Yes, when the klansman is placing the noose around your neck the validity of the concept of race matters not, so I too agree with @zaji last statement

 

@Pioneer1, the jury is still out your you application of logic in this case, as out resident logic expert @Delano, has chosen not to express his opinion in this case.

 

It is fascinating to see how malleable your thought process is. Rather that just concede that you now agree with what I've been saying all along you have the balls to write;  "The fact is, race is a CONCEPT.....an idea"  and make it seem like you are making a revelation?!

 

At any rate, given that statement, one you've seemly integrated, unconsciously, that idea that race is just an idea without basis in genetics.

 

 

 

 

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