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Pioneer1

Are Less Educated People More Prone To Violence?

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In another thread, Troy suggested that less educated people are more prone to violence.

The first thing we need to do is DEFINE the terms  EDUCATION and VIOLENCE.

 

 


Troy, what is your definition or understanding of EDUCATION and what is your definition or understanding of VIOLENCE?
 

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Troy Definitions for the purpose of this discussion

 

Education: The process of acquiring knowledge and learning how to apply it.  This can be done through formal education and training or independently.  It is not uncommon for a college education to fail miserably at providing an education and there are very educated people that never set foot on a university campus.

 

Violence: Engaging in the activity of physically assaulting someone.  This includes drugging someone and fingering them while they are unconscious (ala Mr. Cosby).  But does not include Obama's military calling drone strikes. I'm talking about the action of an individual on others.

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I agree with those definitions for the purpose of this discussion.

Let me say that I won't out right disagree with your position because I haven't done enough research on the subject to clearly prove you're wrong.
However I would like to CHALLENGE it.

You said less educated are MORE prone to violence; which implies that more educated people are LESS violent.
And according to your definition education is:
"
The process of acquiring knowledge and learning how to apply it. This can be done through formal education and training or independently. "


If those with formal training are less violent than those without any, then that would mean professionaly trained police officers and military service men should be LESS VIOLENT than the average civilian with only a highschool education or less but no professional training.
But we know that professionally trained and often college educated police officers and military service men typically engage in and in many cases actually initiate far more violence than those without their education.

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We have to look at the nature of the training. As I said there are people who have college educations but are the proverbial "educated fools."  The Nazi SS were highly training, but were evil as hell, personally killing many non-Arians.  I'm not talking about people who are educated to improve themselves not to d the bidding of others (like police officers and MBAs).

 

Look I'm have not presented data to support my position either -- indeed no one has on either side of this argument has.  But @Pioneer1 I'll repose the same question I posed in the other conversation that everyone ignored:

 

Do you think that the percentage of people with a college education, incarcerated for violent crime is higher than the percentage of people in the general populations?

 

I'm pretty sure the answer to this question can be found on the web, but what do you think the answer is and why?  I think that the people incarcerated for violent crimes are less educated.  

 

Again, the reasons are not black and white.  Less educated people, tend to be poorer, are simply more likely to be incarcerated, so the sample is biased.  Using the same logic I could easily say Black people are more likely to be violent too.  But again I was not saying a lack of education is the cause I'm saying there is a correlation.  Perhaps if we look at he reasons for the correlation will find some reasons for it.

 

 

  

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The Nazi SS were highly training, but were evil as hell, personally killing many non-Arians. I'm not talking about people who are educated to improve themselves not to d the bidding of others (like police officers and MBAs).


You're ADDING to the definitions we agreed upon.

What a person does WITH their education is irrelevant to whether or not education itself...which is an increase in knowledge or training.....makes one more or less violent.

Besides, I believe I read something in another thread where either you or Cynique said being more educated means they should be able to think better and more for themselves instead of allowing others to manipulate their thinking for them, so killing people because you were "just following orders" would challenge that.


 

 

 

Do you think that the percentage of people with a college education, incarcerated for violent crime is higher than the percentage of people in the general populations?


No, I absolutely do not think so...however there could be many different reasons for this OUTSIDE of them simply being less violent, including:

1. Being more educated made them SMART enough to commit their crimes and get away with them and/or

2. Being more educated gave them a higher income allowing them to afford more legal resources to stay out of jail and/or

3. Being more educated means they have MORE FRIENDS who are lawyers, judges, and police officers to get them off the hook

...among other reasons.

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Pioneer you did not answer my question:

 

Do you think that the percentage of people with a college education, incarcerated for violent crime is higher than the percentage of people in the general populations? (a simple "yes" or "no" would suffice)

 

 

1 hour ago, Pioneer1 said:

What a person does WITH their education is irrelevant to whether or not education itself...which is an increase in knowledge or training.....makes one more or less violent.

 

My definition says "...learning how to apply it."   Besides it seems like you are less focused on trying to understand what Im saying and much more focused on trying to figure out different ways to dispute it.  That is probably why you did not answer my question... I even put it in boldface so that you would not miss it.

 

Your position is that educated people commit just as many violent crimes as uneducated people, but get away with it because they are slicker, know more lawyers, and can afford better representation.  

 

Your statement would is difficult to disprove because it is based upon the assumption that unsolved violent crimes are committed by educated people who were smart enough to get a away with it.  We can;t know who has gotten away with unsolved or unreported crimes.  We could look at the educational levels of those tried, but not convicted, but of course many of these people might actually be innocent-- regardless of educational level.

 

So there is no information (that I'm aware of) which would prove any of the statements that you made.  @Pioneer1, do you have anything to support any of the statement that you've made?

 

I think the relative educational level of those incarcerated, while not perfect, is a decent indicator.  It is certainly better than the proof you provided which is zilch.

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As far as I'm concerned this discussion is open for ALL posters, not just me and Troy.
I just called Troy's name because he was the one who made the statement we're discussing.

 

 

 

 

Troy

My definition says "...learning how to apply it." Besides it seems like you are less focused on trying to understand what Im saying and much more focused on trying to figure out different ways to dispute it. That is probably why you did not answer my question... I even put it in boldface so that you would not miss it


Lol....what are you talking about?
Not only did I answer your question in detail, the FIRST word in answer to your question was -NO.

And to be clear, my position is NOT that educated people commit just as many violent crimes.
I've said at the beginning that I don't have the proof to actually back that position up.
What I'm doing is challenging the idea that educated people are less violent because of it's social and political implications.

Further, that list of reasons I provided wasn't meant to be proof or even evidence to DISPROVE what you said, but to provide you with reasonable CONSIDERATIONS as to why your assumption that fewer educated people are in prison for violent crimes simply because they are less violent.

But seriously, do you REALLY need me to provide "evidence" or "proof" that educated people have more resources and connections than the uneducated????

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On 7/15/2018 at 5:08 AM, Pioneer1 said:

Do you think that the percentage of people with a college education, incarcerated for violent crime is higher than the percentage of people in the general populations?


No, I absolutely do not think so...however there could be many different reasons for this OUTSIDE of them simply being less violent, including:

Perhaps Troy only reads responses addressed to him 

@Pioneer1

 

On 7/15/2018 at 7:04 AM, Troy said:

Pioneer you did not answer my question:

 

Do you think that the percentage of people with a college education, incarcerated for violent crime is higher than the percentage of people in the general populations? (a simple "yes" or "no" would suffice)

@Troy apparently a No and a explanation aren't sufficient. 

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10 hours ago, Delano said:

naw I'm here to write the wrongs.

Is that a Freudian slip?  Or in the future will we have ample opportunities to declare that what you "write" is wrong?  😜

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No @Cynique "writing wrong" is exactly was Del is doing.

 

On 7/15/2018 at 10:40 AM, Pioneer1 said:

What I'm doing is challenging the idea that educated people are less violent because of it's social and political implications.

 

@Pioneer1, I don't really understand what you mean by that statement, but I'm sure it is not a position that I've asserted here, or in our in previous conversations, nor is it related to the title of the conversation you started: "Are Less Educated People More Prone To Violence?"

 

It is obvious, to any educated person, that prisoners are significantly less educated than the general public.  Again there is a correlation between education and propensity to violence.  This is nt really up for debate.  We can debate the reasons for this correlation, but I suspect we will find common ground there.

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, Troy said:

This is nt really up for debate

Everything should be up for debate. You confuse your opinion for facts. 

 

Okay Natasha and Boris the phrase is I am writing the wrong. 

What about Street Knowledge .

Tavon White seems part entrepreneur part psychologist. He was running the jail. I reckon as far as Street kniwledge he has his PhD. 

The problem with the argument for me is that education somehow makes people less violent . Or there is an inherent difference between the educated and the uneducated. Which sounds like eugenics. 

 

So if there is am inherent difference than getting an education doesn't matter. Because the difference is innate not learned. And if it is learned , how or in what way.

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No Del, everything is not up for debate. Facts, despite modern media's inclination to do so, is a waste of time.  I'm surprised you would even make a statement like this.

 

Why would any reasonable person, whose time is valuable, "debate" facts?

 

My God man, are you still continuing to question the fact that people in jail are less educated than the general population?! 

 

What about "street knowledge?"  People with real street knowledge stay out of jail.  Your reasoning is lost on me.

 

2 hours ago, Delano said:

The problem with the argument for me is that education somehow makes people less violent . Or there is an inherent difference between the educated and the uneducated. Which sounds like eugenics. 

 

The incredibly ridiculous claim that getting an education is sounds like eugenics is simply absurd.  @Pioneer1 do you co-sign Del's statement? 

 

Is the eugenics argument why you are rejecting the notion of education bettering people and perhaps leading them to a less violent way of life? 

 

No one here has said that uneducated people are worth less than educated ones and need to be exterminated?!  Why go off the deep end Del?  

 

It should be axiomatic that individuals better themselves through education.  Only someone with a low class mentality (regardless of their net worth) would think otherwise.

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4 hours ago, Troy said:

 

It should be axiomatic that individuals better themselves through education.  Only someone with a low class mentality (regardless of their net worth) would think otherwise.

Your statement makes my point. You are not debating what you are doing is closer to propaganda. You  have yet to explain much less demonstrate by any examples how education makes people better citizens. Granted making more money means more options but there are plenty of tradespeople that arent formally educated. I use this us example because you compare Phd to to criminals. 

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Del I'm not going to waste time trying explain to an adult, with a functional, brain why obtaining an education is self improvement. Do I have to also explain why eating right, exercising, and getting sufficient rest is a form of self improvement as well?

 

People educated in the trades have an education too... I'm not talking about just mba's and rocket scientists. 

 

I'd be willing to say you are less likely to commit a violent crime if you have a high school diploma from a shitty public school or a GED that someone without those credentials.

 

Would now be willing  say that getting a high school dimplia does not make an individual better than if they had not gotten one?

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Oh so you've taken it personally. My father did not go to university either. But I'm sure he'd agree if he had he would have benefited.

 

Knowledge is power Del, and you don't have to go to "university" to acquire it.

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Del

This is why I decided to challenge that position in the first place.
Like you said, it CERTAINLY could be used as propaganda!


Those beliefs taken to the extreme could be very dangerous and damaging politically and socially in this society because it could lead to masses of people being unfairly incarcerated and quite possibly "eliminated" for no other reasons except the fact that they are considered "uneducated".

This has historically been one of the arguments for negative eugenics.

 

 

 

 

 

Troy

 

 

I don't really understand what you mean by that statement, but I'm sure it is not a position that I've asserted here, or in our in previous conversations, nor is it related to the title of the conversation you started: "Are Less Educated People More Prone To Violence?"


When I say I'm challenging the idea, I'm not saying it's necessarily untrue....I'm asking you to PROVE that it IS true.
And statistics on those in who are imprisoned in a legal system that requires money to adequate representation isn't my idea of proof.


 

 


is obvious, to any educated person, that prisoners are significantly less educated than the general public. Again there is a correlation between education and propensity to violence. This is nt really up for debate. We can debate the reasons for this correlation, but I suspect we will find common ground there.


Yes, I agree that those in prison are less educated than those in the general public.
But what I can't agree on...unless you can find me proof....is that those in prison actually COMMIT MORE CRIME (violent or otherwise) than those in the general public.
By continuing to use that example you're making two broadbased assumptions:

1. You're assuming that everyone in prison are actually guilty of the crimes they are accused of.
2. And likewise you're also assuming that people who are freely walking around in the general public are typically law abiding and non-violent.


I've said before that there are many reasons to CONSIDER why a person may be in prison besides the fact that they are guilty.
-not being able to afford decent representations to clear them (one of the biggest reasons)
-not having the right connections to keep them out of jail
-not being smart enough to keep from getting caught while the smarter person who commited the same crime had a better plan

There are far too many factors involved in why some people are incarcerated and others aren't than them simply being more violent.


I'd like to return to my examples of TRAINED/EDUCATED police officers and military members who engage in far more violence than the average citizen including those who are less educated.

They assault and KILL people.....but arent' incarcerated for it.
How many soldiers do you know have been imprisoned for the killing they've done?

You can't point to those incarcerated as an example of the most violent individuals in society.

 

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Exactly Pioneer 

No @Troy my father was brilliant and Pioneer clearly understands how problematic your statements are. So Blacks are a disproportionate numbers of prisoners and mostly likely under-represented as Phd. So as a proxy you can say Whites(Phd) aee less violent than Blacks(Prisoners) 

My father may have agreed with you. 

Did you get the Boris and Natasha reference. 

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11 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

1. You're assuming that everyone in prison are actually guilty of the crimes they are accused of.
2. And likewise you're also assuming that people who are freely walking around in the general public are typically law abiding and non-violent.

 

Actually I'm not @Pioneer1 everyone knows there are innocent people locked up and guilty people running free.  Sure you have to believe that the majority of people locked up are guilty right?  

 

Also the guilty people running around would hurt my argument because they would be considered part of the general population.

 

Pioneer why do you keep demanding proof.  You have no proof and I've never said i have proof.  I have presented a factual correlation. all the gradious assumptions are yours (and Del's).  

 

@Delano, or shall I say Mr. Strawman, why are you now introducing race into the question?  I never mentioned anything about race.  But if you want to go there, surely you must agree that uneducated white people are more violent that the educated ones.  Do you think the low level membership of Klan is made up of people like Richard Feynman?

 

No I did not get the  get the Boris and Natasha reference.  I was never a fan of that cartoon 😉

 

 

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Troy


Pioneer why do you keep demanding proof. You have no proof and I've never said i have proof. I have presented a factual correlation. all the gradious assumptions are yours (and Del's).


I'm not asking for proof, just more evidence to JUSTIFY why you so ardently belief this.

Again, there are serious social and political implications for promoting this belief.

Do you see how evil people could use that position to PURPOSELY miseducate or undereducated an entire class of people they don't like in order to lable them as violent and use that as an excuse to eliminate them from society?

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On 7/17/2018 at 9:03 AM, Pioneer1 said:

But what I can't agree on...unless you can find me proof....is that those in prison actually COMMIT MORE CRIME (violent or otherwise) than those in the general public.

 

@Pioneer1 aren't you asking for proof in this statement?  This reads to me as if you are asking for proof. What did I miss?

 

Again, the correlation between the educational levels of those incarcerated compared to the general public are well know -- I should not have to prove this to you. You can easily look it up.

 

Yes, of course, I see how evil people can and do use the this correlation to purposely label less educated people as more violent.  I have not taken, nor asserted, that beflier -- despite the fact that you and @Delano have reacted, quite irrationally, to me as if I had.

 

 

 

 

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aren't you asking for proof in this statement? This reads to me as if you are asking for proof. What did I miss?


I think you're mixing up two separate statements on two separate positions....

In the case of the above quote,
 I was talking about in the above quote was whether or not those in prison commit more crime than the general public.
And I wasn't so much ASKING for proof as much as I was simply establishing my disagreement on the issue unless your provided proof. But if you see this as asking for proof, OK...I can' see how it could be interpreted as that.

BUT.......

A related but SEPARATE issue that I HAVE NOT asked for proof on is whether or not less educated people are more violent.
THAT position was what I was refering too when I said I'm not asking for proof.

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