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Malcolm X Debates Evie Rich (1961) - This is Deep


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Mel

Oooh yes, you LOVE a good strong brother....when he's dead and gone.

But if he were here right now you'd be fussing and arguing with him over the VERY SAME things you're arguing with the men in this thread over.

If Malik was posting on this thread right now you and Cynique would both take turns:

 

-"How dare you imply women need men to protect them!"

-"Are you saying women aren't strong enough to.....blah blah blah"

-"Black men can't even protect themselves from the police or eachother so why would I wait on a.......blah blah blah".



So you can stop poking your little fist in the air talking about how on point Malcolm was because you KNOW if he were on here you'd be arguing with him and sounding JUST like Evie, lol.

 

 

 

 



Chev

How are you, I haven't heard from you in a while.

Lol....
Perhaps you were away because you were so influenced by our exchanges that it forced you to do further research on the true history and etymology of biblical stories and myths?

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@Cynique you first hand accounts from the past are always fascinating.

 

@Mel Hopkins, thanks for the quote: Wangari Maathai 🙂  ALso, the video you posted regarding Malcolm is the reason I cited the NOI and Malcolm X when asked who protects Black women.  The NOI are not unique, but they are a visible example.  But again the media loves to push the image od weak males.  Strong Black males are marginalized to the point of obscurity, so much so people -- even Black ones -- don't believe we exist.

 

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1 hour ago, Troy said:

ALso, the video you posted regarding Malcolm is the reason I cited the NOI and Malcolm X when asked who protects Black women. 

 

@Troy I thought you wrote "protect THEIR women" ... Malcolm X doesn't say "Muslim Women" even though he refers to himself as Muslim.  From my perspective, that makes a big difference. He doesn't put limitations on his proposed protection for BLACK WOMEN...

3 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

-"How dare you imply women need men to protect them!"

-"Are you saying women aren't strong enough to.....blah blah blah"


@Pioneer1 Do you remember that I EXPECT black men to provide protection both individually AND as a group...  No one has our (black women) but us and this saddens me.  Oddly enough my daughter felt safe in Dubai because protocol is set up to protect women. For example, women and children ride in the front of the bus - men in the back  - men are not allowed to harass women on the streets...  I'm conflicted because I'm an advocate for personal freedom -but in their strange way, they want women to at least feel safe. What I admire about Malcolm X is he didn't say he wanted women to behave a certain way  or follow his religion to receive protection.

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Mel

 

What I admire about Malcolm X is he didn't say he wanted women to behave a certain way or follow his religion to receive protection.


And here lays the problem.

Because Elijah Muhammad most definately DID demand that women carry themselves a certain way because the most instrumental aspect of a woman's security and protection is HER and how she handles herself.

But Malik didn't have to SAY women must carry and conduct themselves a certain way, it was already understood as COMMON SENSE at that time for women in the Nation of Islam and even most women in the AfroAmerican community.
Things have changed dramatically since the time he gave that speech so while the women must still be protected the also must be RE-CIVILIZED (and the men too) to be taught how to properly conduct themselves.

 


No man with good sense will put his life on the line to protect a skank, or some loud angry verbally abusive woman who goes around dressing provocatively or starting fights with men or other women EXPECTING her man or the men in the community to come running to her rescue.

There are no free rides.

If you want a man to be a man then YOU have to be a lady and act like one and conduct yourself like one; which means you don't put yourself or your man in harms way by STARTING or ENCOURAGING situations that will put your life and safety in danger like dressing provocatively or hanging out in dangerous areas.

If you want a man who will provide you with unconditional protection who will allow you to behave as you please, you need to hire a paid bodyguard because no man with good sense will do it.

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22 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

Lol @ all of this "praise" you two are heaping on Malcolm X.

 

9 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

So you can stop poking your little fist in the air talking about how on point Malcolm was because you KNOW if he were on here you'd be arguing with him and sounding JUST like Evie, lol.

@Pioneer1  So what is your point? I ask myself if you ever say anything that i don't have a knee jerk reaction to rebut. The answer is apparently, "no".  Where did i heap praise on Malcolm?  i simply described his role during a protest era whose time had come. And, yes,  if he came on here today, i would be arguing with him about Islam because it's a rigid, vindictive, misogynistic religion that i do not like. And i would also wisecrack about the NOI being who Muslim sisters needed to be protected from because of the humble submissive behavior this organization requires of its women who are expected to defer to their men.    

 

Black women have gotten past expecting black men to put their lives on the line for them. Now, black men need to stop expecting certain things from black women like stroking their egos and propping them up and mothering them so they can go out and face the cruel white world that picks on them.    

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44 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:

Malik didn't have to SAY women must carry and conduct themselves a certain way

 

And that’s what makes Malcolm X , the man.  He didn’t say muslim women he said BLACK Women ...it was unconditional protection. 

 

A man who decides he’ll protect someone when its convenient is a punk-azz-bytch.  So, who needs him! 

 

I speak from experience. I met a black man to pick up tickets for an event. Never laid eyes on him before that moment... As we’re doing an exchange - a cab hit the curb and was heading for us on the sidewalk.  Dude  jumped in front of me ..to body block. The cab stopped on the curb and recovered, thank goodness. But that man put me in a safe place. That’s a man who protects a woman, any woman.  That’s a Malcolm X kinda man.  

 

Yes, it is written he exploited women but then he grew into a man.  

24 minutes ago, Cynique said:

, i would be arguing with him about Islam because it's a rigid, vindictive misogynistic religion that i do not like.

 

Yes! Now if he started talking that nonsense it would be a wrap. #ByeMalcolm . I have no patience for  Islam and roman-catholicism.

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Cynique

 

 

so what is your point?


My point WAS you WERE playing "three card molly" with your phony support of strong protective Black males.....until I called it out and exposed the hypocrisy.

 

You said,
"As soon as i heard Malcolm's resonate voice on the video, telling it like it was in response to the shrill, high-pitched enunciations of Evie, the years fell away"


So when I've said in the past that AfroAmerican men need to protect their community you and Mel claim I'm being hyperbolic and you even go as far as to demand some examples of my standing up for or protecting Black women.  But when Malcolm says the very same thing I've been saying off and on on this site for years.....all of a sudden he's "telling it like it is" ((finger snap)).

Gimme a break.....

At one point you were even comparing the brother to your daddy and started reminiscing, lol.

I felt I HAD to call you out on your bullshit, you do understand don't you?

 

Now YOU, (meaning Cynique alone.....because I think Mel my still be trying to insult my intelligence by continuing to do it....lol) have come right out and admitted that you would be treating Malcolm the same way you're treating Troy, me, and Del -whenever he finds enough nerve to challenge you which is occasionally....lol.    You'd be argumentative and nit-pickish finding every fault you can to criticize HIS strong stances and well defined social perspective -especially when it comes to gender relations in the AfroAmerican community- like you do ours.

So atleast you're now finally admitting that you really WOULD treat him the same, but only because I forced you to.....lol.

I take pride in bringing out the BEST in you Cynique....lol.



 

 

 

 

 




Mel

 

And that’s what makes Malcolm X , the man.  He didn’t say muslim women he said BLACK Women ...it was unconditional protection.


He may be THE man but he wouldn't be YOUR man unless you accepted and respected his authority as your protector.
But be aware that his protection requires a level of submission on your part, lol.

 

If you want  UNCONDITIONAL protection, you don't need brother Malik Shabazz or any other Black man with sense.
You need a damn ROTWIELER.....lol.

Image result for rottweiler

 

 

 

 

I speak from experience. I met a black man to pick up tickets for an event. Never laid eyes on him before that moment... As we’re doing an exchange - a cab hit the curb and was heading for us on the sidewalk. Dude jumped in front of me ..to body block. The cab stopped on the curb and recovered, thank goodness. But that man put me in a safe place. That’s a man who protects a woman, any woman. That’s a Malcolm X kinda man.


Are you serious?

That's just a natural human....or atleast human male.....reaction.
Do you seriously think that same man would escort you through the streets of SouthWest Atlanta, West End, or Bankhead with the same thoughtless courage?

 

 

 


 

Yes! Now if he started talking that nonsense it would be a wrap. #ByeMalcolm . I have no patience for Islam and roman-catholicism.


I know, you want to have your cake and eat it too.

You want a damn fool.....lol.

Someone willing to protect and put his life on the line for you unconditionally without YOU having to take any responsibility for your behavior whatsoever.
 

 


And for the record........

 

A man need not be religious just to expect feminitity and proper behavior in public from the women in his community.

Does she have to walk around covered from head to toe in a blanket with a hole in it for one eye to peak through?
No.
But I and most of the INTELLIGENT AfroAmerican men I know expect women to naturally carry themselves a certain way.


Let's go beyond Black and White.....
Go to downtown Atlanta and look at the East Asian, Indian, and Latina women you see walking around.
Except for the Latinas....most of them are NOT Muslim or Catholic yet watch how THEY conduct themselves.
Do you see them cussing every other word?
Do you se them staring at eachother with evil and dirty looks as if they're waiting on any type of disrespect to give them an excuse to react violently?
Do you see them cussing at their children, snatching them around, or letting them run in and out of the street unattended?

See, these women ACT differently....which is why they're TREATED differently by their men!

The gender roles you mentioned seeing in Dubai exist because of how BOTH the men and women behave, not just the men.

You know good and dog-gone well the women in Dubai don't act like most of the women you see in Atlanta and other urban areas of the United States....yet you wanna sit up there and ask why don't the men treat them the same as the men in Dubai treat their women.

 

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11 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

How are you, I haven't heard from you in a while.

 

@Pioneer1 Hey! I'm doing fine. Thank you!

I've been sick with Bronchitis.

11 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

Perhaps you were away because you were so influenced by our exchanges that it forced you to do further research on the true history and etymology of biblical stories and myths?

 

LOL! 

You need to stop! I've been procrastinating a little, but you forced me to relook at some terms, and that is good! It only reinforced what I already researched. But I am very glad you did. Also, I think I've been sidetracking too, and gossiping. 

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2 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

Del -whenever he finds enough nerve to challenge you which is occasionally....

Check this, I used to say Pioneer made a good point or his statement is logically consistent. Note I haven't said that recently. 

Never let the facts get in the way of a good story, Rever end Pioneer. 

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@Mel Hopkins, I pretty certain I did not put the condition of "muslim" when I gave Malcolm as an example of protecting Black women which was what was asked.  In any case that was not my intent.  Besides no single Black man can protect all Black women.  That would require a collective effort.

 

But to your point of protecting Black women I was thinking from the perspective of the individuals.  But if you want to say that as a group Black women are unprotected sure I see your point now.  Black men are largely unprotected as well.  Neither can protect the other unless they can protect themselves, when I argue we can't.

 

Our businesses struggle more than they should because we largely don't look out for them.  We say how much faster and cheaper Amazon is -- ignoring their benefits and without investing in our own businesses. 

 

I have support, but not nearly enough to make me immune to Google, Amazon and social media.  What support I do have is the only reason I'm here after 20 years but the next 20 are FAR from guaranteed, if our people chase then embrace shiny object white folks dangle in front of us whether it is AOL, Myspace, Facebook,... then that is all we will have.

 

6 hours ago, Mel Hopkins said:

#ByeMalcolm

 

Dag! LOL.  No Islam is not for everyone.  But they, as a group, protect their women.  I also wonder not so cavalierly dismiss the NOI as misogynist -- mainstream american culture is far more misogynist.  On of my favorite speakers is Dr Minister Ava Muhammad.  Sh ios a power sister, but you read about here in Essence...

 

 

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19 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

o what is your point?


My point WAS you WERE playing "three card molly" with your phony support of strong protective Black males.....until I called it out and exposed the hypocrisy.

 

You said,
"As soon as i heard Malcolm's resonate voice on the video, telling it like it was in response to the shrill, high-pitched enunciations of Evie, the years fell away"


So when I've said in the past that AfroAmerican men need to protect their community you and Mel claim I'm being hyperbolic and you even go as far as to demand some examples of my standing up for or protecting Black women.  But when Malcolm says the very same thing I've been saying off and on on this site for years.....all of a sudden he's "telling it like it is" ((finger snap)).

Gimme a break.....

At one point you were even comparing the brother to your daddy and started reminiscing, lol.

@Pioneer1You need to go somewhere and sit down. Nothing you say applies to me or proves the point you are attempting to make.  You are seeing what you want to see in a desperate hope to elevate yourself and discredit my ongoing dismissals of your opinions.  Show me where i posted anything other than indifferent  expectations  when it came to black men defending black women or where i reacted in any way other than to proudly proclaim how sistas had each other's backs! You must have me mixed up with Mel or Chevedove. The first Malcolm video inspired my post about past memories and had nothing to do with black men protecting their women.  My reminiscing was in regard  to Malcolm telling it like it is was when it came to white people, not  black men protecting black women. i didn't comment on the second video because i didn't watch it but relied on Mel's assessment.

 

Of course, however,  Malcolm has always told it like it is and for you to compare yourself to him is ludicrous. Your favorite subject is  black women's hair and their attempts to lighten their skin and the same ol  drivel about the sexual prowess of black men who you advise should pick and choose who they will try not to run away from when danger threatens.  Then you try to portray me as "starry eyed" because I accurately described Malcolm's voice as resonate, something the contrasting squeal of Evie enhanced,   I have always liked Malcolm and given him his props, and disliked Farrakhan for being complicit in his murder but as I said, back in the day, he wasn't saying anything i hadn't heard before from my father. So stop taking bows as if you have busted me.  You ain't done nothing but reveal how much you yearn to be a winner.  Try a little harder, LOSER.    

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8 hours ago, Troy said:

pretty certain I did not put the condition of "muslim" when I gave Malcolm as an example of protecting Black women which was what was asked. 

@Troy  

 

 
@Troy  read your post and you will see where you mentioned the possessive “Their women” and Malcolm protects Betty... “
 
Malcolm X said in that clip BLACK WOMEN.. in that clip Malcolm expresses unconditional protection and RESPECT for Black Women ....  
9 hours ago, Troy said:

I also wonder not so cavalierly dismiss the NOI as misogynist -- mainstream american culture is far more misogynist.

 

@Troy BOTH  institutions and systems are misogynistic ... but America has laws to correct and protect women to make existence equitable and equal.

 

There have been no updates to the quran.  

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10 hours ago, Troy said:

Neither can protect the other unless they can protect themselves, when I argue we can't.

A female a protects her child in the animal kingdom. So I am going to disagree with you. 

I have seen more black women than black men protect and comfort black boys. 

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3 hours ago, Delano said:

A female a protects her child in the animal kingdom. So I am going to disagree with you. 

I have seen more black women than black men protect and comfort black boys. 


Lol.......

I call you Mr. Reliable.
Because you can always be counted on to take the sides of the women in almost any argument on almost any issue.

 

But maybe you're on to something.

Perhaps you seeing more Black women (attempting) to defend Black boys explains why so many Black men are unwilling or unable to collectively and PROPERLY defend Black women today.
Look at the examples they had growing up.

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Well I'm not Muslim @Mel Hopkins and have no intentions on joining the NOI, so my defense of them can only go so far, as I have limited knowledge of them. 

 

I never got the impression the NOI only protected "their" Black women to the exclusion of other black women.  In any event, Black people of all genders and even class are all largely unprotected in American culture.  It is one reason why young people join gangs or frats/sororities.   Now we debate who is the  MOST unprotected, but it makes little sense given we are all in the same boat. 

 

2 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:

Because you can always be counted on to take the sides of the women in almost any argument on almost any issue.

 

I made this observation too, but I also realize masculinity falls on a spectrum and some guys will think more like a woman than others.

 

There is a notion, which I reject, that suggests that there are no inherent differences between men and women (other than our sex organs). I think the failure to knowledge, understand, and embrace these differences has caused a lot of confusion in our culture.

 

Again we all fall on a spectrum so while the average man is taller than the average woman there are plenty of woman who are taller than men. Likewise there guys who think more like a woman than some women.

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23 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

I'm sorry to hear that.

 

@Pioneer1 Thank you. I am trying to get better. It's a long road. I'm on my way back to Florida for awhile and maybe the warm weather will help.

It's cold where I am now, in Maryland.

 

23 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

Are you eating or drinking anything like milk, cheese, or chocolate?

 

Milk--no

chees--no

chocolate . . . I'm pleading the 5th. lol!

 

6 hours ago, Delano said:

Who protected the women from the Honourable Elijah Mohammed? 

 

LOL... NOw, that's interesting.

 

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6 hours ago, Delano said:

 

Who protected the women from the Honourable Elijah Mohammed

 

I don't know what you mean?

 

6 hours ago, Delano said:

So when I agree on a position that you don't, (Pioneer and Troy) have I think like a woman.

 

No, but i was cosigning @Pioneer1's observation that you always side with the women on these debates -- even going so far as talking lead in exchanges.

 

Recall when i asked you how @Mel Hopkinsthought about an issue recently. I did that because you were speaking for women in the conversation. Mel came in late and completely missed what I was doing and accused me of taking away her agency when i was actually emphasizing the fact that you had no problem speaking for women.

 

Also i was not making a value judgment about your ability to think like a woman. Are you? Some women may find that trait appealing.

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1 hour ago, Troy said:

I did that because you were speaking for women in the conversation. Mel came in late and completely missed what I was doing and accused me of taking away her agency when i was actually emphasizing the fact that you had no problem speaking for women.

 

@Troy

I don't recall @Delano speaking for me or @Cynique ...   So I didn't miss anything.

 

What I do recall is a thread started by Delano   and his sharing an opinion on the topic. 

It was here : when you asked "

 

@Mel Hopkins do you also buy into @Delano's unsubstantiated belief that black men dont respect black women? "

 

Instead of asking my opinion on the topic, here you ask me if I buy into Delano's belief. 

 

Since you're tone deaf on the topic, this is how you attempted to take away my agency -

 

While we're on the topic of the agency - why are you implying that Delano's is speaking for women?   Isn't it possible that he also believe that black men don't protect or respect black women?   This is exactly what Malcolm X said in that video clip.  I didn't think Malcolm X was speaking for women - he simply made an observation that he wanted men to correct. 

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4 minutes ago, Mel Hopkins said:

why are you implying that Delano's is speaking for women?   Isn't it possible that he also believe that black men don't protect or respect black women?  

 

Because he is. Inorder to make that statements he made he had to be speaking on behalf of women.

 

He obviously does not believe men do not protect women, because this is what he has said.

 

Malcolm was also speaking for women.

 

Look, if you want men to protect you at some point men will have to speak for you.  You cant have it both ways.  If you are so fixated on agency then you better be prepared to take care of yourself (not you specifically, but Black women in general).

 

What @Mel Hopkins are YOU saying (of course anyone may answer)  when you say Black men don't protect Black women? What are we collectively not doing that we should be doing?

 

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32 minutes ago, Troy said:

Look, if you want men to protect you at some point men will have to speak for you.

 

@Troy , You don't have to speak for someone you're protecting.  I've protected my children all their lives but when they were old enough to speak for themselves - I referred to them, I spoke about them but NEVER FOR THEM. I respect them too much.    @Delano also mentioned respect for women.   Do you respect women?  

32 minutes ago, Troy said:

What are we collectively not doing that we should be doing?


I've already answered this in the invisible black males thread.

 

32 minutes ago, Troy said:

If you are so fixated on agency then you better be prepared to take care of yourself (not you specifically, but Black women in general).


Black women ARE caring for themselves.

 

"Natalie Hopkinson, a professor at Howard University, summed it up.

“A lot of black men are just not hearing what black women are saying because they are too busy complaining about their own situation,” she said. “When it comes to really supporting black women, nobody has our back but us.”"


Black women have moved on.  

BUT it would do well to remember, when black women march in the streets because black men are being gunned down - a black man's agency is left intact (Well at least the one's still breathing).  Black women are willing to speak truth to power regarding  state-sanctioned murders and then we vote our interest. Now we black women are holding  seats at all levels of government - except executive office (soon come).    Like I've written before - black women give birth to black boys who grow up into black men - so maybe we protect black men because we have a larger stake in their survival. 

 

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22 minutes ago, Mel Hopkins said:

I've protected my children all their lives but when they were old enough to speak for themselves

 

I feel l like you are mincing words to make a point, sort of like the "help versus assist

 

The implication is that once your kid reached a certain age they became independent and no longer need your protection. Are Black women the same? Do they ever reach a point when they no longer need protection from men? If not why not? What makes them different than your daughters?

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3 hours ago, Troy said:

Look, if you want men to protect you at some point men will have to speak for you

I have said I am not speaking for women. I have said ask women what they think. Mel said she didn't feel I was speaking for women. 

 

I can't believe you said that Troy. 

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10 hours ago, Troy said:

feel l like you are mincing words to make a point, sort of like the "help versus assist

 

The implication is that once your kid reached a certain age they became independent and no longer need your protection. Are Black women the same? Do they ever reach a point when they no longer need protection from men? If not why not? What makes them different than your daughters?

@Troy While that may be your perception; connotation of the word “for” is dependent on its context.

 

Since, I spent good part of my career disseminating news to the masses, I know what words can be used interchangeably and what words change the context of the story.  

 

Speaking “for” someone in this context means they are unable. Speaking on behalf indicates support.  Support is the crux of this thesis.

 

Still, I’m not sure why you believe it’s necessary to infantilize black women in an effort to support or protect them.  

 

This is why respect is an important component to protection. 

 

Most black women respect black men and that’s why they’re willing to protect them without diminishing their standing. 

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6 hours ago, Mel Hopkins said:

why you believe it’s necessary to infantilize black women

 

I'm doing no such thing.  You are taking it that way for some reason.  I assume you are not questioning my respect for Black women.  If you are I'll let me behavior and record speak for itself.  If you mean in general, again. I disagree.

 

Again, @Delano  use YOUR words and tell me what you mean.   I watched the video but you need to explain what you are talking about for the sake of clarity of nothing else.

 

You tell me to ask, but when I do you rarely answer.  You speak for others but lately, not for yourself.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Troy you think Black Men  protect Black Women. Mel and Cynique don't agree with you. 

 

You think I am speaking for the women. Yet both Mel and myself say we are not.

 

 

 

I thought it was common knowledge that Elijah Muhammed fathered children with his teenage secretaries. 

 

Delano :

Who will protect Black Women from the Honourable Elijah Muhammed 

 

Troy: 

I don't know what you mean? 

 

Malcolm X:

I was told by Elijah Muhammed's son that his father had children with his teenage secretaries. So I left and was threatened. 

 

Women were being taken advantage of in the NOI by the founder .

It was common knowledge. And when Malcolm X said he was leaving the NOI, he was threatened. So no one in the NOI including Muhammad's son was strong enough to confront him about his sexual activities. 

 

I didn't think that needed any explanation. The founder of any organisation having sex with teenagers that he is not married to is a big problem. So in my head women and especially young women are not safe. When their leader is preying not praying. 

 

Let me know if any of that is incomprehensible to either @Troy @Pioneer1 or@NubianFellow

 

I am awaiting your responses. 

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Del
 

Let me know if any of that is incomprehensible to either @Troy @Pioneer1 or@NubianFellow

I am awaiting your responses.


My response:

 

Elijah Muhammad was one of the greatest Black men to have been born in the United States.

I don't give a shit IF he banged 10,000 young secretaries and was smiling to himself while he was doing it!

...that's between him-them-and The Supreme Being who is the Ultimate Judge.

When no one else gave a damn about helping Black men...HE DID.
For over 40 years!


I don't agree with everything Elijah Muhammad said or did, but as far as I'm concerned the GOOD he's done for Black America outweighs the bad.
That's my man.

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11 hours ago, Delano said:

Troy you think Black Men  protect Black Women. Mel and Cynique don't agree with you. 

 

Again you are speaking for both Mel and Cynique.  @Mel Hopkins gave us a beautiful anecdote about a Brother who stepped in front of a speeding car to protect her. On an individual level, many Brothers will lay down their lives to protect women. Why you reject this is beyond me.  I can only suspect this is not something you would do and you are projecting.

 

On a collective level however I'm inclined to agree.  But I don't think Black men are any more protected than Black women.  Indeed on a number of levels from incarceration rates, to educational attainment, to life expectancy one could make a strong case that Black men are LESS protected that Black women.  The bottom line is that we can all do a better job of protecting each other.

 

11 hours ago, Delano said:

You think I am speaking for the women. Yet both Mel and myself say we are not.

  

There you go speaking for the Mel again -- allow her to retain her agency please 😉 

 

Again, yes, you continually speak for them.  I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with that, because I think you are trying to be supportive of them. The issue I have is your dismissal of the male perspective, while you are doing it.

 

11 hours ago, Delano said:

The founder of any organisation having sex with teenagers that he is not married to is a big problem. So in my head women and especially young women are not safe. When their leader is preying not praying. 

 

So says you Del.  You are not in the NOI, you do know know the circumstances, you don't know their code of behavior.  It is presumptuous of you to arrive at a conclusion based upon so little knowledge.  The NOI are their own group and they handle their business the way they -- not you -- see fit.  Besides, five minutes ago you were calling Malcolm X a pimp.  

 

Do you really expect me to say that the NOI does not protect their women simply because of what you think about the behavior of one man who died over 40 years ago? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Discovering that Elijah Muhammad had a harem of young girls, many of whom he impregnated, was what drove Malcolm to leave the NOI and start his own sect. I personally knew a girl in my hometown who was fathered by Elijah Muhammad and was later adopted by a local minister of the Church of God and Christ, and his wife. Also, according to Malcolm's biography by Alex Haley, Malcolm was a pimp in his days before he went to prison and converted to Islam. Of course, Alex has proved to not always tell the truth in his books. Recently there have been reports that in 2010 Farrakhan became interested in Scientology and began to explore its concepts and encourage followers  to study the disciplines of Dianetics in order to become coverts and learn the "auditing" procedures utilized to recruit  and monitor others.   i also read where Farrakhan has converted to Christianity, accepting Jesus Christ as his savior.  

 

I read about the Muslims and Dianetics in Wikipedia, which of course, draws criticism from certain people on this board.  But i have always found well researched information there, and since the living people and the heirs of the dead people it profiles have an option to challenge and correct information about themselves or their works, i assume that what i read there is as good a source as any for information.  

 

As far as what i believe about black men automatically defending their women, i don't think doing so is a priority of theirs or something they do as a custom. Individual ones may do so in the course of protecting their families, the same way they would do if it came to their car or any property they valued.  It's not something i dwell on. i remember a while back when one night my husband and i were awakened by a noise that made him wonder if someone was trying to break in.  He immediately got up with the intention to go down stairs and see.  i protested, asking him what did he think he could do?  He continued out the room, saying he didn't know but would think of something when he got there. While i had my hand on the phone, i think he grabbed  an object before he made it down the stairs where it proved to be a false alarm.  So i guess "situational ethics" can trigger impulses. 😏   

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11 hours ago, Delano said:

@Pioneer1 that was Elijah Muhammed's rational. The good out weighs the bad. 

 

Ofcourse!

And that's how men ARE to be evaluated!

You're supposed to use REASON and LOGIC and take a wholistic approach in determining someone's value to their community and not make snap judgements based on emotion or contemporary moral standards.

 

Now you're going to ignore all of the good that man did for Black America and for Black men in particular and label him "predator" just because he's accused of having sex with girls.


Come on man.

See this is one of the reasons I said you can be counted on to take the sides of the women.
Because that's how women think.
They tend to base a man's entire worth....not on all of his accomplishments together....but on who he had sex with .


"Sure he came up with the cure for cancer, the cure for AIDS, and he prevented World War 3 and saved millions of lives....but I still don't like him."

Why not?

:angry:"Because he CHEATED ON ME!!!"



A man can do all types of good and his wife will STILL be ready to put honey on his windshield or burn his clothes because he had sex with someone else besides her, lol.

Not saying that cheating on your wife or sex with young ladies you're not married to is ok to do....but hell....put things into perspective when you're dealing with a person.


Like Troy said, it's an INTERNAL issue that people inside that organization must grapple with.
One of the reasons Malcolm strongly reacted to the accusations against Elijah Muhammad was because he thought Elijah was divine....sent by God.
If a man you thought was divine commits what you think is a sinful act.....it often times ignites a moral crisis in your psyche.

That's what religion tends to do.
I don't have the same problem because I believe Elijah Muhammad was a human being who could and did make mistakes.

If they came out tomorrow with some shit on Marcus Garvey it wouldn't phase me one bit because IF I believed it....I'd say the good he did for AfroAmericans far outweighted that bad.

Again, when I evaluate people I take ALL of their accomplishments (that I know about) into consideration, and not just the bad or most condemning.

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On ‎12‎/‎1‎/‎2018 at 9:48 PM, Delano said:

The founder of any organisation having sex with teenagers that he is not married to is a big problem. So in my head women and especially young women are not safe. When their leader is preying not praying. 

 

Wow

On ‎12‎/‎2‎/‎2018 at 10:09 AM, Troy said:

The bottom line is that we can all do a better job of protecting each other.

 

Yes.

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Is it asking too much for women to expect men to have good character and integrity? There's no excuse for accomplished husbands choosing to let their penises supplant their brains especially since no man cherishes an accomplished wife who engages in promiscuous behavior. An extra-marital affair can be forgiven but ongoing perversion and predatory harassment are not cancelled out by public acclaim. Bill Clinton will always be condemned for his shenanigans with Monica Lewinsky, and Donald Trump for his lewd behavior in spite of both having achieved the office of the presidency; and rightfully so.   Esteemed married men should be role models worthy of being emulated, not sneaky pussy-mongers. There have to be standards. And it's perfect;y legitimate for a woman to not like a renowned man who was unfaithful to her, something he would likewise resent if she cheated on him.  (Anybody who criticizes such a woman is totally lacking in insight.)  Unfortunately, the double standard is alive and well as ego-centric men routinely meander through life adhering to the "don't do as i do, do as i say do" code. 

 

Elijah Muhammad was an unscrupulous lecher and nothing can erase that blot from the meager contributions he made to the world-at-large.  Yes, "doggish" tendencies are in a man's DNA but for a husband to have the discipline and good judgment and moral compass to rise above lust by considering its negative possibilities, is an accomplishment that truly inspires admiration.  Of course, people are free to behave anyway they want, but they shouldn't demand to be respected when their indiscretions come to light. 

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6 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

You're supposed to use REASON and LOGIC and take a wholistic approach in determining someone's value to their community and not make snap judgements based on emotion or contemporary moral standards.

 

6 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

put things into perspective when you're dealing with a person.

 

On 12/3/2018 at 1:43 AM, Pioneer1 said:

I don't give a shit IF he banged 10,000 young secretaries and was smiling to himself while I was doing it!

 

On 12/3/2018 at 2:09 AM, Troy said:

So says you Del.  You are not in the NOI, you do know know the circumstances, you don't know their code of behavior.  It is presumptuous of you to arrive at a conclusion based upon so little knowledge.

 

On 12/3/2018 at 2:09 AM, Troy said:

Besides, five minutes ago you were calling Malcolm X a pimp.  

I no longer try to win arguments here or try to change anyone's position. 

 

I post a link and later I state my position and I ask questions. I also don't define what your position is or should be.

 

I think our respective positions are clear. I don't have a masculine or feminine perspective.

 

With the exception of Bill Cosby I think about an issue. I also will do a quick search about the issue. 

 

I think the Viola Davis thread is a perfect example of my approach. I wasn't any side. And I was able to answer the question that was posed by Mel.

 

Live and learn or not.

4 hours ago, Cynique said:

Is it asking too much for women to expect men to have good character and integrity

The comments have already answered this. 

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5 hours ago, Cynique said:

  Of course, people are free to behave anyway they want, but they shouldn't demand to be respected when their indiscretions come to light. 

 

Let the church say “Amen”...

 

@Cynique I’m so glad you posted this! Thank You!  I’m  beyond finished with this thread especially after reading that “let boys be boys” sentiment. 

 

 OMG... I can’t believe anyone would think it’s ok to use young women jack up their lives and let them raise up “bastard” children in a religious sect -because they were the top seller of  some bean pies. 

 

I Just can’t. 

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Is it asking too much for women to expect men to have good character and integrity?


Yes, because depending on the woman asking...THEIR idea of "character" and "intergrity" may be perverted by contemporary society.

A man's over all WORKS are the clearest examples of his character and integrity, not who he's having sex with.

If pay a contractor to build a house for me, the last thing I'm concerned about is how that man (or woman) has slept with last night, whether or not he cheated on his wife, or whether or not he's a virgin who masturbates 10 times a week.
All of that is IRRELEVANT to me.

I want to know can he do the job I hired him to do and HOW WELL will he do it.

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9 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

If pay a contractor to build a house for me, the last thing I'm concerned about is how that man (or woman) has slept with last night, whether or not he cheated on his wife, or whether or not he's a virgin who masturbates 10 times a week.
All of that is IRRELEVANT to me.

All well and good as long as the man in question doesn't think that just because he has a skill or has done something famous that this gives him a license to be a philanderer if he's married, or a perverted sexual predator if he's single,  or any these combination of these offenses.  What we're talking about is behavior in a personal relationship between a man and woman, not you and an auto mechanic. The point is that men should not think they deserve blind respect just because they have expertise in some area.      

 

And, once again, until a man can tolerate promiscuous behavior in his significant other who has a talent or skill, then he needs to stfu.  The traits that constitute integrity are universal and constant, and will always be about doing the honorable thing - except to a slippery creep like you, apparently.   

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On 12/3/2018 at 4:28 PM, Delano said:

I no longer try to win arguments here or try to change anyone's position. 

 

Yeah @Delano you spend too much time trying to "win" arguments.  So you aren't always forthright, for fear it will weaken you argument.  This is the reason you rarely answer direct questions that I pose for fear it will weaken you case.  @Pioneer1 always answer questions.  He is not so much concerned about winning -- thought he can be less rigid and more willing to change his position with new and better information 😉

 

Often Del there is no winning position -- just differences of opinions on subjective matters.

 

On 12/3/2018 at 4:28 PM, Delano said:

I post a link and later I state my position and I ask questions. I also don't define what your position is or should be.

 

In terms of telling others what their position should be we all do this to a certain extent including you.  You were involved in the fruitless effort to help Pioneer understand the "help" and "assist." If you were not trying to tell Pioneer what to think, what were you trying to do? (Not sure why I bothered to ask that question you will not answer it... )

 

5 hours ago, Cynique said:

The traits that constitute integrity are universal and constant

 

No, this is certainly not true. The very fact that we are so often in disagreement about what constitutes integrity should be proof enough.  We often don't have enough information to make the determination about who has integrity. We can about the integrity about of specific behaviors of people, but assessing the whole person is much more difficult and well can reasonably disagree.

 

Neil Degrasse Tyson I heard recently has been caught up in #MeToo.  He seemed like a nice guy until we learned more about him...

 

It was considered perfectly reasonable to prevent women from voting until less than 100 years ago. It was concerned a bad thing to kill a baby, now it is considered a woman's right (not a man's).  It still is perfectly legal to marry your 16 year old cousin in some jurisdictions while many people find that gross

 

There will never be universal traits for anything relating to human beings. These are culturally defined and cultures change over time.

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3 hours ago, Troy said:

No, this is certainly not true. The very fact that we are so often in disagreement about what constitutes integrity should be proof enough.  We o

i meant the definition of the word is constant.  Has  it changed?  If people don't conform to that definition for whatever reason that doesn't mean the meaning of the word has changed.  It just means that the word doesn't apply to that person and another word should be used  in reference to that person. i could make the argument that a woman who is described as being "short" in stature doesn't change the meaning of the word "short" just because she puts on high heel shoes and becomes tall.  Integrity means being honest.  So if a woman is honest about her reason for wanting an abortion,  her integrity is in tact because she is not being a deceitful liar.   

 

@Troy  On November 30th on another post you said to Pioneer:  "As far as this trivial debate about the your failure to recognize that Help and Assist are synonymous is nothing more than that - trivial.  What I find surprising is that after all these years you will never change your stance on any issue -- even when you are demonstrably wrong, like now.The question you really be considering is why?  Why are you so rigid?" 

On December 4th  you said to Del:   "Pioneer always answer questions.  He is not so much concerned about winning -- thought he can be less rigid and more willing to change his position with new and better information..."  @TroyThe word "integrity" certainly wouldn't apply to your 2 different opinions.  I think "inconsistency" would be the appropriate word to define your waffling,  or maybe even "expediency" since you decided to side with Pioneer when disagreeing with Del.  🤨    

 

 

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Troy comprehension is key. I haven't argued any points. I have stated my opinion ask other members what they thought without imputing motive.

 

Let me remind you that you said I was speaking for Mel. I  didn't think so, and asked her she said no. So you may not be objective. 

 

You asked what I meant and I clearly demonstrated what I meant. And then you responded like I personally insulted you. 

 

That is how Elijah Muhammed is referred to by the NOI or is that also news to you. 

 

Cynique gave first hand evidence. Yet you wonder about the veracity of my statements. 

 

Lately you seem to not notice or acknowledge when I answer your questions.  At one point Cynique had to point out to you that I had answered your question. 

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On 12/3/2018 at 5:25 PM, Mel Hopkins said:

OMG... I can’t believe anyone would think it’s ok to use young women jack up their lives and let them raise up “bastard” children in a religious sect -because they were the top seller of  some bean pies. 

 

I Just can’t. 

 

yeah, that is too much for me.

 

23 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

I want to know can he do the job I hired him to do and HOW WELL will he do it.

 

@Pioneer1 But, if that man was banging young girls and you had a young daughter, you expect me to believe that you would  have no problem letting that contractor work on your house around your daughter in your absence? So, it wouldn't matter if he was banging your young daughter, --along with other young girls--just that he did a good job as a contractor working on your house?

 

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17 hours ago, Troy said:

Yeah @Delano you spend too much time trying to "win" arguments.

I  was going to respond, but I don't know what you are trying to say. 

On 12/3/2018 at 1:43 AM, Pioneer1 said:


I don't give a shit IF he banged 10,000 young secretaries and was smiling to himself while I was doing it!

So protecting Black Girls from a Black Minister is a non-event. Yet Black Men protect women?

 

@Troy and @Pioneer1 if that's the male perspective than I am embarrassed at our manhood. 

 

I have thought that each of us represents a segment of the Black Population. The lack of response from @Troy and @NubianFellow tells me that unity is not possible. Since respect ,empathy and the ability to simply hear and feel someone's experiencial pain is missing. 

 

I don't have to try and win arguments. 

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Chev

 

So, it wouldn't matter if he was banging your young daughter, --along with other young girls--just that he did a good job as a contractor working on your house?


Great question.

Yes, his behavior as it relates to my daughter WOULD be a concern of mine....it it were brought up.

I seriously doubt a subject like that would be brought to my or any other customer's attention unless that contractor's competitors or enemies were trying to launch a smear campaign against them.

However, even with all of that......

If he was good enough at his job and wealthy enough, depending on my daughter's age I just MIGHT consider whether or not he'd make a good HUSBAND and PROVIDER for my daughter!

In the old days, men actually LOOKED to marry their daughters to successful accomplished men with the understanding that they liked sex and would be having sex with them.

I'm sure you remember that in the older days some of our grandmothers and great grandmother's were being married BY THEIR FATHERS to older men at 15 and 16 years of age!
I don't advocate that, however from their perspective I'm sure they were looking out for their and their children's interests by trying to pair them with men they thought would take care of them.


We all must understand something.....

In historic Caucasian society sexhas been condemned as nasty and filthy and the worse thing you can do to a person; which is some of the worst insults revolve around giving peope the finger and saying "f-you".
This is why historically they have had so many sexually dysfunctional societies.


We need to define OUR OWN codes of morality.


 

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