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Malcolm X Debates Evie Rich (1961) - This is Deep


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23 hours ago, Troy said:

 

On 12/5/2018 at 7:59 AM, Cynique said:

The traits that constitute integrity are universal and constant

 

No, this is certainly not true. The very fact that we are so often in disagreement about what constitutes integrity should be proof enough

Yes it is true it's called mores or morals. 

Which are universal for any given culture and and time. However you can't compare across cultures and temporally it can break down over time. 

31 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:

We need to define OUR OWN codes of morality.

You have your own code of what you consider ethical. We clearly inhabit different world's. 

I think you and Troy are confusing a masculine perspective with domination

34 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:

We need to define OUR OWN codes of morality.

You have your own code of what you consider ethical. We clearly inhabit different world's. 

I think you and Troy are confusing a masculine perspective with domination

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@Pioneer1 I have to comment on what you said here because frankly, this was a bad example:

 

"I'm sure you remember that in the older days some of our grandmothers and great grandmother's were being married BY THEIR FATHERS to older men at 15 and 16 years of age!
I don't advocate that, however from their perspective I'm sure they were looking out for their and their children's interests by trying to pair them with men they thought would take care of them."

 

These practices happen in dark nations today and in all cases it's sad. When a parent makes a child marry someone to achieve a certain position or higher standard of living they are not looking out for the child's interest. They are looking out for their own and though this exists throughout our world, it's terrible culture. In some cultures they practice bride kidnapping which is just as deplorable. White people came into their land and kidnapped and raped these people's wives and they adapted it as culture. Same thing with Africa. Many of these "traditions" were created out of being tormented by white people. Yet we celebrate these things and refer to these things as positive culture, which it is not. White publications point out how backwards these things are as if they are so advanced, but fail to mention the existence of white people are the reason many of these "traditions" exist in the first place. Because their ancestors and them have had and still have a hell of a time raping our people and killing us off. I love my African identity - don't get me wrong. But I can't cosign bs. As a people, we must not.

 

Arranged marriages destroy lives and many of these women actually commit suicide and become exposed to the most diseases. It's a form of slavery and it should not be our way. Do we have to become chattel slaves again before we learn that slavery is wrong, on all fronts?

 

@DelanoThe Black woman is the most unprotected woman on the planet, but not due to the Black man not protecting her to his best ability individually. The problem is systemic in that there is a system put in place to keep us powerless. And do I blame the Black man? Absolutely! One hundred percent. Its only because I see the Black man as a god, which means we don't have the luxury of excuses. But our collective behavior is low vibration. And we need to vibrate higher and become effectively more organized, unified and militant in our behavior. But today, our behavior collectively, is the opposite of militant.

 

We've become used to mediocrity and the men always are supposed to lead. But where are we leading our women too? We are messing up. If you are talking about protecting the Black women to the best of our ability - collectively, then the Black man has not only failed the Black woman, but he has failed his race, the kids and hope for our future. And I put everything that's wrong with Black people on the shoulder and back of the Black man. It's our job to repair what we have allowed to become destroyed. And if we don't do that, who the hell are we not to accept accountability, even if that means our own extinction, from which it appears, we will be the biggest participants of.

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Del

 

Yes it is true it's called mores or morals.

Which are universal for any given culture and and time. However you can't compare across cultures and temporally it can break down over time.


Mores and morals are NOT "universal" across cultures.
Different cultures have different ethical and moral codes.

Hell, even the SAME culture often will change their morals over time as they advance or decline.
Homosexuality was once illegal and condemned in Western culture, now it's generally accepted.

 

 


You have your own code of what you consider ethical. We clearly inhabit different world's.


You're absolutely right about this.
As you said I have my OWN code, and you don't. You seem to be using SOMEONE ELSE'S code for your ethics instead of using the brain that The Supreme Being gave you to define your own ethics.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Nubian

As I said earlier, I don't advocate for arranged marriages or marrying girls off to older men, it was more of an attempt to put things into historic perspective; however look at the people who come from those nations and compare the stability and productivity of THEIR families to the stability and productivity of the average AfroAmerican family.

Do we have any room to criticize them and how they are doing things?

Since integration AfroAmericans collectively have ATTEMPTED to model our family structure after the Caucasian families we see around us hoping it will work for us the same way it has worked for them. It's only led to 50 years of failure, broken families, and dyfunction.

You can criticize arranged marriage and the suppression of women in African cultures all day long but African families are in a heck of a lot better shape that most Black American families.
Their divorce rate is much lower, their households make more money, and the children function better in school than the average AfroAmerican family.


The nuclear family structure CLEARLY doesn't work for us.
I personally think was as a people need to sit down and intelligently design a brand new family structure specific to our people and our unique circumstance here in America.

 

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For the record, most Black men I know are good dads, they support their wives and children, they protect their families and most of the Black mothers I know personally strive to be the best mothers they know how to be. In the age of us waking up, of course they are not perfect parents, but they love their children and do their best. As a whole, my opinion of Black people is that we are unique, highly intelligent (in our own special way), have the best genes and the most soul out of anyone else.

 

I don't buy the b.s. narrative that Black men are too effeminate or that Black women are thots and other bad words. But these people have an agenda and they have mastered the ability to make us turn on ourselves. The solution is simple.

 

If you go to any ghetto on the planet, you will see that the crime rate is high and the property value is low. However, take any borough in NYC; the properties are valued at about 150k and up. However, if you change the mindset of those who inhabit these areas, the property values would shoot to the millions of dollars. If our thinking changes to a certain extent, we will have already increased our wealth without doing anything else.

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@Pioneer1 I disagree implicitly with all you have said brother. Most African families aim to be American families or some other European nation at the end of the day. Yes, there are wealthy Africans but their wealth does not compare to ours. You are referring to less than 1 percent of African wealth.

 

You pointed out their divorce rate is low. Perhaps the divorce rate would be lower if a woman knew her penalty for divorcing her mate was death. Enough said on that patriarchal system.

 

You said their households make more money. This is fiction. I would love to know where you got this information from. Most countries in Africa are third world countries and our brothers and sisters over there are adamant about us "coming home" to help them build. Slavery hurt Africa in the worst way imaginable and they have never recovered from that poor decision of their corrupt governments.

 

Finally, you said they outperform us in school. This is part is true. We have the highest dropout rates and we celebrate behavior that keeps us from excelling as a collective. African kids are more ambitious about learning than our kids and retain much more information and this needs to be addressed more heavily in the Diaspora. American Black kids reject knowledge while other races of children are thirsty for it. We also lack the discipline that exists within African societies. The sad part is that our children are super smart and intelligent but there is a problem embedded deep within our social structure that produces poor results.

 

I don't say these things to put my African brothers and sisters down because they are me, but let's not be influenced by things that are propagandized and totally false information.

 

As far as following the European model, the only thing I disagree with is doing things in the name of their god or jesus, which is a fictitious and mythical character that was stolen from our history books, ironically, because Egyptian mythology actually makes sense, unlike Greek mythology which is dumb in my opinion. If white people are saying that forced marriages are wrong then I can't argue with that perspective. If they think it's shameful that people are setting their brothers and sisters on fire and exhibiting cannibal behavior, I won't argue with that either.

 

I love Africa and I dream of going back home someday, to the motherland. However, wrong is wrong and right is right. We know enough to call out the bs and we should. We need to stop praising tribal behavior and end the fascination of primitive rituals and cultures that keeps our people the most far behind on this planet. I'm for the ascension of the Black race. I'm for African empowerment. I will not cosign backwards behavior, simply because I love home.

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20 hours ago, Delano said:

So protecting Black Girls from a Black Minister is a non-event. Yet Black Men protect women?

 

Yes, because ALL Black Men are not defined by the actions of an individual or group that you dislike Del

 

14 hours ago, Delano said:

Yes it is true it's called mores or morals. 

Which are universal for any given culture and and time

 

No, they are not. Look at how divided the American culture is and aways has been. NOTHING is "universal" when it comes to people.

 

14 hours ago, Delano said:

I think you and Troy are confusing a masculine perspective with domination

 

You seem to know a lot more about the feminine perspective. Stick with that.

 

And stop grouping everone who disagrees with you in the same buckets. It shows you are not reading and understanding what is being written and more ficused on winning.

 

5 hours ago, NubianFellow said:

Arranged marriages destroy lives and many of these women

 

I'm not so eager to say this is true. It is a practice that many cultures follow for a far longer period of time. Than we have practiced our form of mate selection based upon superficial things like physical attractiveness. Given our abysmal rates of successful marriages, Americans really should be quiet.

 

Most of the Brothers i know, know their children and raise them. But this sample set is very biased, as is ours im sure. We simply don't surround ourselves with Brothers would not take care of their children

 

5 hours ago, NubianFellow said:

...the Black man not protecting her to his best ability individually. The problem is systemic in that there is a system put in place to keep us powerless.

 

'Nuff said.

 

You can condemn one gender for a problem neither gender is addressing very well. We are FAR too dependent on those who have created the hostile environment we live in -- their media and businesses.

 

15 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

We need to define OUR OWN codes of morality.

 

This would be ideal, but it can never happen in system were the acquisition of wealth is the primary objective. This makes people too focused on themselves rather than yourselves collectively. 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Troy said:
17 hours ago, Delano said:

Yes it is true it's called mores or morals. 

Which are universal for any given culture and and time

 

No, they are not. Look at how divided the American culture is and aways has been. NOTHING is "universal" when it comes to people.

 

@Troy Give an example of how the word "integrity" has been corrupted.  The definition of the word has not changed. There are enough words out there to describe specific traits and this makes it unnecessary to distort the meaning of one word and apply it to something or someone that doesn't fit its definition. The meanings of certain words are intrinsic. And there are things that are universal when it comes to people!  A smile  and laughter indicate the same thing universally, and so does frowning and crying. Verbal communication via language is also universal as is walking up right.    

 

This disagreement between you and me, represents the tone of this whole thread because each poster sees the world through their own lens. All opinions are fixed and one person's truth is another's delusion  Black folks seem forever destined to be at odds and this is because they are rarely in control of their environment be it physical or political and this makes it difficult to formulate solutions except in the sphere of their skulls.  Such is life.

 

 

  

 

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@Cynique I would not judge the the future of Black folks inability to exert control over the environment based upon this thread or our disagreement. 

 

I'm definitely open to changing my opinion as a result of what I've read on these forums and have done so. 

 

52 minutes ago, Cynique said:

@Troy Give an example of how the word "integrity" has been corrupted.  The definition of the word has not changed.

 

Allow me to clarify: I'm not saying  -- nor did I ever say -- that the definition of "integrity" has changed or has been corrupted.  What I am saying is that what constitutes integrity is a function of culture and time. 

 

200 years ago owning another human being was a sign of success and did not impinge one's integrity at all.  It was perfectly acceptable to impregnate your slave and sell off your own children. Of course today most people would this repugnant.

 

Surely, you understanding the distinction I'm making.

 

I tend not to judge people based upon their cultural  -- regardless of what I think about it personally.  The only time I have an issue with this is if they try to shove their value systems onto me.

 

The problem we have is that ALL of our values were stripped away from us when we were enslaved. Many of us reject the value system thrust upon us by our oppressor, but we have not clue what to replace it with. SO we either up inventing something out of whole cloth (like Kwanzaa), embrace the value system of the oppressor, or trying to rediscover an ancient African culture.  

 

The other problem that we have, one which has gotten FAR worse over the last 50 years, is the fact that were have rapidly lost all of the platforms that we once owned that could possibly help define a Black culture.  The vacuous majority culture taking it's place is doing us FAR more harm than good.  

 

This is why I can't watch TV, have deleted my Facebook account, and find adult Black people doing a Wakanda salute depressing.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Cynique said:

Black folks seem forever destined to be at odds and this is because they are rarely in control of their environment be it physical or political and this makes it difficult to formulate solutions except in the sphere of their skulls.  Such is life.

I Love your Mind. 

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About Black people destined to be at odds with each other, I think that in the context of discussion, there is nothing wrong with having different viewpoints. It doesn't mean Black people are at odds if discussion is happening. This is how we arrive to the most effective solutions. Viewpoints change throughout our lives. If I was having this conversation a few years ago or perhaps maybe even a year ago, my opinions could be a lot different than the opinions I possess now. I actually appreciate when I don't see eye to eye with my people because it means that I will either learn something or educate someone or perhaps both.

 

Besides, without reasonable discourse, how would we agree on which point of view is the correct one?

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4 hours ago, Troy said:

And stop grouping everone who disagrees with you in the same buckets. It shows you are not reading and understanding what is being written and more ficused on winning

Sorry Nubian this is addressed to Troy and Pioneer. 

How's that @Troy

 

1 hour ago, Troy said:

@Cynique I would not judge the the future of Black folks inability to exert control over the environment based upon this thread or our disagreement

I would and said so. There's an inability to listen to other viewpoints. Acknowledgement and agreement need not be linked. 

35 minutes ago, NubianFellow said:

Besides, without reasonable discourse, how would we agree on which point of view is the correct one?

Pov is generally an opinion. Opinions can be misinformed but are not wrong. 

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5 hours ago, Troy said:

m not so eager to say this is true. It is a practice that many cultures follow for a far longer period of time.

How would you know, @Troy ? Are you a woman having your agency snatched? 

 

Your statement here is similar  to Kanye’s “400 years Slavery was a choice.”  

 

Longevity doesn’t make it right...and definitely not right when old ass men are marrying children.  :rolleyes:

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@Mel Hopkins Absolutely and without a doubt on the arranged marriages. I have family from parts of Africa and this is a big problem there. The girls are thrown into marriage before they are able to finish their childhood and this causes a lot of depression and even suicide. It is also the cause of the spread of many diseases, such as a case where a "Hyena" (a man who is requested to have sex with little girls to bring them into adulthood) has infected his victims with AIDS and when asked about it, he replied that it was tradition. I was so disgusted at this. He did finally face charges once western nations put pressure on the incident after a journalist bought the story to light.

 

https://tv.nubianplanet.com/watch/sexual-cleansing-custom-in-malawi-on-spotlight-following-039-hyena-039-s-039-arrest_qLCmIeBGwWKbyhp.html

 

Some things are just not right regardless of tradition or beliefs and there is no way to justify what we describe legally as child abuse in this country. Many of the traditions and beliefs of various societies in Africa should be viewed as history and left behind.

 

 

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15 minutes ago, NubianFellow said:

Many of the traditions and beliefs of various societies in Africa should be viewed as history and left behind.

 

@NubianFellow I’m in agreement.  Sometimes, I wonder if those traditions are true African or from the Colonized African.  There have been so many perverted folks who have enter the African countries with their “bibles” ... it makes me wonder how people who once lived in nature - turned on what’s natural. <-[The latter thought came from watching a video of the  “Prince of Wales” in Ghana and a group were performing a dance around him... One commenter said, “those dancers as graceful as they birds they’re imitating.” They were! They looked like birds in their movement. 

 

 I cried because - I had asked the Universe to show me how our ancestors were before all colonizing and pillaging Then when I saw those dancers everything I had studied made sense- from how we hunted, how we raise crops - to how we lived. I believe it was all in accordance with nature.  

 

So sad to read this about “Hyena” - it breaks my heart that these young lives are cut short and genocide ensues.  

 

While men can impregnate many women in a year - a women can only have one child maybe two in that same year. Impregnate a child give her a disease and we lose our future.  

 

 I hope Africans and Africans in the diaspora can find the way back to our true roots. 

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9 hours ago, Troy said:

Allow me to clarify: I'm not saying  -- nor did I ever say -- that the definition of "integrity" has changed or has been corrupted.  What I am saying is that what constitutes integrity is a function of culture and time. 

 

200 years ago owning another human being was a sign of success and did not impinge one's integrity at all.  It was perfectly acceptable to impregnate your slave and sell off your own children. Of course today most people would this repugnant.

 

Surely, you understanding the distinction I'm making.

 

 

@Troy Repugnant behavior meant the same thing during slavery as it does now. That's why the Civil War was fought.  Northerners thought slavery was repugnant, and slaveholders did not use the word repugnant to describe slavery  because they would have to admit how owning slaves  tainted their integrity,  -  not because back then repugnant  and integrity meant something different.  You expect me to see where you're coming from, so you should do likewise, when you implore me to acknowledge the distinction you are making. Words are something we always clash about so, i'll just leave it at that. 

   

@ all of you who refuted my remark about black folks always being at odds: I hate to keep bringing up what it is that inspires my cynicism about black folks always being at odds, but how long i've been around is what influences my reason for saying this.  The dialogue on this thread is one that i have been hearing for over 50 years and is a conversation that has changed very little. So pardon me if i'm not impressed with this exchange of ideas as being a sign of better things to come.   What this thread mostly amounted to was a typical conversation between 4 black men shooting the breeze about a perennial subject they never tire of.  What can always be distilled from these conversations is a yearning for black unity, the lack of which can conceivably be attributed to blacks always being at odds. But, carry on.  Doing so is probably therapeutic.   

 

5 hours ago, Mel Hopkins said:
6 hours ago, NubianFellow said:

Many of the traditions and beliefs of various societies in Africa should be viewed as history and left behind.

 

@NubianFellow I’m in agreement.  Sometimes, I wonder if those traditions are true African or from the Colonized African.  There have been so many perverted folks who have enter the African countries with their “bibles” ... it makes me wonder how people who once lived in nature - turned on what’s natural

I also agree.  I have always thought the African diaspora in American cobbled together what they wanted to emulate about the Motherland. We should do what comes natural to us in this country, and simply defer  to what our DNA instinctively spawns.     

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@Cynique It's interesting you say that because I have been looking for this NBC special about slavery that came on and I didn't get a chance to watch the whole thing. But the part I saw did describe men who called themselves slave masters would train the slaves to behave like barbarians. Many were raised as children to become savages. They would have them kill and fight each other, or whatever they chose for their own entertainment or amusement, and when they were done with them they took them back to Africa. These were people who probably started civilizations in coming years built on these particular experiences they went through. I can imagine the practices they and their children would dream up from this starting point, so it makes you wonder.

 

In Central Asia there is a country called Kyrgyzstan where the people were once terrorized by enemies who would kidnap and rape their wives and make them new wives. Astonishingly enough, the people adopted this behavior eventually as tradition and to this day they suffer a crisis in which they kidnap wives as custom. Many of the women suffer from great depression and sometimes kill themselves because they could have been planning on going to school or starting their futures, which become ruined when they get kidnapped and are forced by their own families to marry the men who kidnapped them. It's customary. 

 

When people are terrorized throughout history, it seems, they adopt the behavior of the people who mistreated them or their ancestors. We do it in the US and call it "keeping it real." In Africa, if you steal something, you could have your arms or legs cut off in the Congo. These are the same people who endured the wrath of Leopold who cut off the limbs of children merely to impress his soldiers in which his small army is rumored to have killed over 10 million of the native people.

 

So I definitely agree about them being influenced by outsiders. This seems to follow historically similar behavior patterns.

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@Cynique we'll have agree to disagree. you don't believe in moral relativism. I do.

 

@Mel Hopkins see arranged marriages as taking away the womans agency, but using your reasoning the mans agency is being taken away too. I actually know people, you probably do too, whose marriages were arranged. They are happier than all the divorced people who picked their mates.

 

The obsessive belief that the way Europeans do things is the right way is also disappointing -- especially when you look at our abysmal divorce rates. 

 

The failure to even consider that arranged marriages might have benefits or even be superior is narrow minded but typical of Americans who believe everything they do is best, while lagging the world in education...

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1 hour ago, Troy said:

we'll have agree to disagree. you don't believe in moral relativism. I do.

We are coming from 2 different places.  i am talking about semantics, and you are talking about sociology.  i can embrace word purity without rejecting moral relativism.  

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6 hours ago, Troy said:

The obsessive belief that the way Europeans do things is the right way is also disappointing -- especially when you look at our abysmal divorce rates. 

 

The failure to even consider that arranged marriages might have benefits or even be superior is narrow minded but typical of Americans who believe everything they do is best, while lagging the world in education...

@Troy  

Here in the U.S. “arranged marriage” are consensual. Maybe “arranged selection” is a better description. 

 

While it’s debatable whether anyone thinks europeans are correct about marriage - we still have US code of common laws based on English law.

 

Marriage is a legal and binding contract between two people.  Before entering into the agreement, the two have to meet certain criteria. In addition to being of age of consent, the party can’t be coerced ; there has to be mutual consent AND of course they have to qualify for the marriage law itself. (It was just a few years ago same-sex marriage was outlawed)

 

Any legal marriage here in the U.S. wasn’t arranged but rather the couple were asked to decide from a smaller pool of candidates.  

 

The families made an effort to find suitable mates to decide upon.  The two always had the right to reject - especially if they decided on someone outside of the parameters.  

 

Most U.S. marriages occur in a similar fashion, with two people meeting within their social or professional groups.  Many couples still meet each other’s family for approval. 

 

I assumed you were referring to forced marriage which is not legally binding in the U.S. 

 

BTW, whether marriage or being independent determines happiness is purely subjective. 

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Im not in favor of forcing people to get married. Nor am i in favor of old nen infecting young girls with AIDs. One is taking another's freedom and the other is violent. In general, im against both of these things.

 

Of the two arranged marriages I'm thinking one took place in America and the other took place in India. I'm not versed in all the rules both couples were happy. Both guys had professional jobs in financial services.

 

No need to womansplain marriage, i went through the process ;-)

 

 

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1 hour ago, Troy said:

I'm not versed in all the rules both couples were happy.

@Troy I am - thanks to my mother,  oldest daughter and most surprising from when I worked as an international flight attendant.

 

Depending on the caste -those are consensual marriages where  the arrangment is more like a “bake sale”. In one case I know of, they can choose from a variety of people from the same town. (I think it’s weird because these folks have to be distant cousins.) The older sister has to marry first - then the next sister gets to pick. If the older sister is “fat” the younger sister gets to be single for a lot longer... I also know of couples who married outside of their caste and ethnicity too.  

 

Glad you cleared up you’re against forced marriages.  I was giving you the side eye over here. 😊

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Nubian

Brother you make many good and valid points, however most of them are IRRELEVANT in relationship to the point I'm making.
Cannibalism and whether or not we should adopt ancient African traditions have little to nothing to do with MY POINT that we should judge a man by a balance of his ENTIRE life's work instead of condemning him simply for his infrequent episodes of misconduct.

Also, although I don't advocate it as the most ideal system I wouldn't entirely dismiss the idea of arranged marriage.
Sometimes your parents and elders know YOU better than you know yourself in your youthful ignorance and immaturity and thus they may know more about what and who is best for you in the long run.

Many times I've had older  men in my family warn me about the character of certain females I was involved with that I later found they were right on point because they were wise enough and had been around long enough to KNOW better than I had.

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On 12/5/2018 at 9:03 PM, Pioneer1 said:

I seriously doubt a subject like that would be brought to my or any other customer's attention unless that contractor's competitors or enemies were trying to launch a smear campaign against them.

 

No!!!-- @Pioneer1 LOL, I'm screaming now! Listen, there is such a thing as grown men forcing themselves on teenage girls! It has happened. I am asking you about 'if that were your own teenage daughter'. It doesn't matter if someone tried to launch a smear or hate campaign against 'your contractor'. I'm asking you, 'What if it was true and it was YOUR TEENAGE DAUGHTER'. You are diverting my question. 

 

 

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6 minutes ago, Chevdove said:

 

No!!!-- @Pioneer1 LOL, I'm screaming now! Listen, there is such a thing as grown men forcing themselves on teenage girls! It has happened. I am asking you about 'if that were your own teenage daughter'. It doesn't matter if someone tried to launch a smear or hate campaign against 'your contractor'. I'm asking you, 'What if it was true and it was YOUR TEENAGE DAUGHTER'. You are diverting my question. 

 

 

 

Well stop screaming...lol.
Perhaps I answered too quickly and didn't grasp the full meaning of your question so I will RE-answer it.

If that man.....or any man....sexually FORCES himself on my teenaged daughter I would seriously injure or kill that man.

Does that answer your question?



 

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On 12/5/2018 at 9:03 PM, Pioneer1 said:

If he was good enough at his job and wealthy enough, depending on my daughter's age I just MIGHT consider whether or not he'd make a good HUSBAND and PROVIDER for my daughter!

 

OMG! Her age!? A TEENAGER! Okay let's see here . . . 13 or 14 or 15 or 16 or 17 or 18 or 19 . . . Let me see here . . . what was I doing when I was 13 . . . 19. 

At 13, I was still playing with toys and I was not even interested in boys. I was i MIddle School, 7th grade going to 8th grade. a total child. . . . At the age of SWEET 16 I was a senior in high school and at that time, I could not even imagine a grown man forcing himself on me!!! OH WAIT A MINUTE . . . THAT DID ALMOST HAPPEN with my high school History teacher . . . I begged him to stop . . . and he did. I was a complete Virgin at the time. WOW to think I could have been forced into a marriage or motherhood at that time. . .  @Pioneer1 You would allow your own daughter to be married as a teenager!!!? No way!

 

  

4 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:

Well stop screaming...lol.
Perhaps I answered too quickly and didn't grasp the full meaning of your question so I will RE-answer it.

If that man.....or any man....sexually FORCES himself on my teenaged daughter I would seriously injure or kill that man.

Does that answer your question?

 

LOL! Yes! You responded while I was typing the previous response! LOL. I didn't realize you were on!

 

THANK YOU! 

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Chev

:P Naaaaah Alice honey, you aren't going to take me down THAT rabbit hole......LOL.

I'm going to focus on MY POINT that Elijah Muhammad and the Lost Found Nation of Islam was one of the most effective forces in reforming and advancing the socio-economnic status of the masses of poor Black America in the 20th century and his personal indiscretions will not change nor tarnish that fact.

 

All this about discussion about which age is the most appropriate for marriage and how soon should a female have sex and puberty and menstration and all of that.....I'm not going there.


Just like I told our brother Nubian as he tries to engage me over the relevance of African traditions, I'm not going there.

I'll sit back and observe, but don't expect me to actively participate.

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On 12/6/2018 at 7:13 AM, NubianFellow said:

he Black woman is the most unprotected woman on the planet, but not due to the Black man not protecting her to his best ability individually. The problem is systemic in that there is a system put in place to keep us powerless. And do I blame the Black man? Absolutely! One hundred percent. Its only because I see the Black man as a god, which means we don't have the luxury of excuses. . . . 

 

We've become used to mediocrity and the men always are supposed to lead. . . . 

 

WOW! I realize this response was directed to Delano, but I would like to respond.  NO ONE SHOULD HAVE THE LUXURY OF EXCUSES.

Women can't be leader!? Women can't be leaders that should also be held responsible for good as well as bade actions!?

 

On 12/6/2018 at 7:13 AM, NubianFellow said:

If you are talking about protecting the Black women to the best of our ability - collectively, then the Black man has not only failed the Black woman, but he has failed his race, the kids and hope for our future. And I put everything that's wrong with Black people on the shoulder and back of the Black man. It's our job to repair what we have allowed to become destroyed. And if we don't do that, who the hell are we not to accept accountability, even if that means our own extinction, from which it appears, we will be the biggest participants of.

 

Thank God for America then, because my children were forcibly taken away from me byway of A BLACK WOMAN JUDGE and due to many BLACK WOMEN SOCIAL SERVICE WORKERS. This BLACK WOMAN judge broke up a Black FAmily because she hates BLACK MEN. She hated me because I was married and I had to get media to expose her. Others have stated the same about her. All of these women that assisted in a cover up, were NOT MARRIED or had NO CHILDREN or NO SONS. This judges mother had her and her sister out of wedlock and they have been made to HATE THEIR FATHER, a BLACK MAN. This GENDER STRUGGLE between Black people needs to stop. This issue happened way back in time, in Africa, byway of White Supremacist Movement. . . in ancient times. So, no, I don't really 'give thanks to America' because this judge was selected to be a judge in FAMILY COURT by Americans!!! She was selected by the vote, even though she had no husband, never been married, and she had no children. Yes, as in ancient times, WOMEN SHOULD BE LEADERS, but they should also be held accountable for our plight today. Otherwise, we will never be free. 

 

 

Pioneer

 

 

13 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:

I'm going to focus on MY POINT that Elijah Muhammad and the Lost Found Nation of Islam was one of the most effective forces in reforming and advancing the socio-economnic status of the masses of poor Black America in the 20th century and his personal indiscretions will not change nor tarnish that fact.
 

All this about discussion about which age is the most appropriate for marriage and how soon should a female have sex and puberty and menstration and all of that.....I'm not going there.

 

@Pioneer1 Okay. I will respect that. But as for others, I hope they do go down 'that rabbit hole' cause they may find that there is a bottom to it.

And, that Movement did nothing for me. I sat at the table and studied with an Islamic man and he did not agree with that man you support. That nation is divided today, because that leader had sex with teenage girls and that is a serious problem. So, I will leave off of this topic with you, but I will continue.

 

A CHILD SHOULD NOT BE FORCED TO HAVE SEX WITH A GROWN ASS MAN!

 

 

 

On 12/6/2018 at 12:35 PM, Troy said:

You can condemn one gender for a problem neither gender is addressing very well. We are FAR too dependent on those who have created the hostile environment we live in -- their media and businesses.

 

Ah well!!! There you go!!! THANK YOU @Troy

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1 hour ago, Pioneer1 said:

I'm going to focus on MY POINT that Elijah Muhammad and the Lost Found Nation of Islam was one of the most effective forces in reforming and advancing the socio-economnic status of the masses of poor Black America in the 20th century and his personal indiscretions will not change nor tarnish that fact.

Tell me. if the NOI was so great why weren't you motivated to join it?  Why did you, instead, remain a member of the vast majority of black Americans, - millions and millions of people who this provincial organization had no influence on.  You don't even exhibit any signs that your affinity for the NOI made you an exemplary non-Muslim.  You are, instead,  someone who spends his time scraping the bottom of the barrel looking for excuses for lechers, and proselytizing pseudo African concepts that originate in the jungle of your imagination. Specifically, what major socio-economic change can you point to today that  can be attributed to this minor little sect this is a blip in the black radar  and was headed up by a religious charlatan  who thought he was entitled to sleep with and impregnate innocent young girls and who arranged the murder of his most eloquent and devoted spokesman?

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On ‎12‎/‎7‎/‎2018 at 2:10 PM, Cynique said:

Tell me. if the NOI was so great why weren't you motivated to join it?  Why did you, instead, remain a member of the vast majority of black Americans, - millions and millions of people who this provincial organization had no influence on.  You don't even exhibit any signs that your affinity for the NOI made you an exemplary non-Muslim.  You are, instead,  someone who spends his time scraping the bottom of the barrel looking for excuses for lechers, and proselytizing pseudo African concepts that originate in the jungle of your imagination. Specifically, what major socio-economic change can you point to today that  can be attributed to this minor little sect this is a blip in the black radar  and was headed up by a religious charlatan  who thought he was entitled to sleep with and impregnate innocent young girls and who arranged the murder of his most eloquent and devoted spokesman?

 


I'll tell you why.....right AFTER you tell me why if Malik (whom you still call "Malcolm")   "told it like it was" and was the example of a real man who reminded you of a father figure then why the hell didn't YOU join the movement so that you could either MEET a man like that or support it simply to encourage them to keep producing more men like that.

 

Don't wait 50 years later when Malik has gone off the scene to start praising him as a real "man's man".
You had your opportunity to do it when he was alive.

The only reason you CLAIM to respect and admire him now is because he's gone and not on this site calling you out on your hypocrisy.


 


As to your other question.......

 


Besides the man you CLAIM to admire so much, Elijah and the NOI produced:

Muhammad Ali one of the world's greatest boxers
Naim Akbar one of the world's greatest AfroAmerican psychologists
Kareem Adul Jabbar one of the world's greatest basketball players
Minister Louis Farrakhan who in 1995 organized the largest demonstration ever to be held in Washington D.C.


The Black Panthers came out of the Nation of Islam

The fact that so many Black people call eachother "brother" and "sister" today is as a result of the Nation of Islam.

The fact that so many Black people call eachother "Black" today instead of "colored" or "Negro" is as a result of the influence of the Nation of Islam

Much of Rap and Hiphop and artists like the Wu Tang Clan, Ice Cube, and Public Enemy are a product of those who've accepted the teachings of the Nation of Islam.

Ungrateful woman......
You need to STOP getting it twisted and recognize that it was ELIJAH MUHAMMAD and his organization who cleaned up the man you CLAIM you admire today.....stopped him from being a pimp, drug dealer, and abuser of women and helped make him the man the world remembers today.


If you wanna start condemning organizations that abuse young children, take your ass to the nearest Catholic church and START THERE and perhaps you may have just a little more credibility with me.

 

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1 minute ago, Delano said:

Based on various chauvinistic and misogynistic statements made by the male members. I am proud to be seen as being more supportive to the women. You have offered proof that erodes your claim of protecting black women. 

 


.....just as long as you don't confuse SUPPORTING Black women with actually PROTECTING them.

People in distress need a police officer not a damn cheerleader, lol.

 

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On 12/1/2018 at 2:02 PM, Mel Hopkins said:

 

@Troy

I don't recall @Delano speaking for me or @Cynique ...   So I didn't miss anything.

 

What I do recall is a thread started by Delano   and his sharing an opinion on the topic. 

It was here : when you asked "

 

@Mel Hopkins do you also buy into @Delano's unsubstantiated belief that black men dont respect black women? "

 

Instead of asking my opinion on the topic, here you ask me if I buy into Delano's belief. 

 

Since you're tone deaf on the topic, this is how you attempted to take away my agency -

 

While we're on the topic of the agency - why are you implying that Delano's is speaking for women?   Isn't it possible that he also believe that black men don't protect or respect black women?   This is exactly what Malcolm X said in that video clip.  I didn't think Malcolm X was speaking for women - he simply made an observation that he wanted men to correct. 

 

On 12/3/2018 at 1:43 AM, Pioneer1 said:


I don't give a shit IF he banged 10,000 young secretaries and was smiling to himself while I was doing it!

...that's between him-them-and The Supreme Being who is the Ultimate Judge.

When no one else gave a damn about helping Black men...HE DID.
For over 40 years!

 

On 12/4/2018 at 9:25 AM, Mel Hopkins said:

 

 OMG... I can’t believe anyone would think it’s ok to use young women jack up their lives and let them raise up “bastard” children in a religious sect -because they were the top seller of  some bean pies. 

 

I Just can’

 

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On 12/8/2018 at 4:42 AM, Chevdove said:
On 12/6/2018 at 11:13 PM, NubianFellow said:

We've become used to mediocrity and the men always are supposed to lead. . . . 

 

WOW! I realize this response was directed to Delano, but I would like to respond.  NO ONE SHOULD HAVE THE LUXURY OF EXCUSES.

Women can't be leader!? Women can't be leaders that should also be held responsible for good as well as bade actions!?

 

24 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:

.just as long as you don't confuse SUPPORTING Black women with actually PROTECTING them.

Why not ask  the women their perspective? 

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51 minutes ago, Delano said:

 

Why not ask  the women their perspective? 


Since YOU seem to be their designated spokesman, if I had any questions for them I'd probably just ask YOU....lol.
 

 

BTW.........

 


Troy and Del

A little bit of information you may find interesting.

Since you both grew up Uptown in the 70s you DO realize that many of the rappers like Jay Z, Nas, and Poor Righteous Teachers as well as many others belong to a Nation of Islam splinter group known as "the nation of gods and earths"  or "Five Percenters" right?

This group was started back in the 60s in Harlem when one of Elijah Muhammad's ministers Clarence 13X was put out of the Nation of Islam and decided to start his own organization using much of the Nation of Islam's teachings but with fewer restrictions.
It became really popular with many of the young people in the streets and it heavily influenced rap music.

Erykah Badu and the Wu Tang Clan also are adherents to the Five Percent Nation.

They often call eachother "god" and "cipher".
 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Pioneer1 said:

A little bit of information you may find interesting.

Do you know why Professor Grif was kicked out of PE?

1 hour ago, Pioneer1 said:
1 hour ago, Delano said:

 

Why not ask  the women their perspective? 


Since YOU seem to be their designated spokesman, if I had any questions for them I'd probably just ask YOU....lol

You are too smart for me to debate. 

1 hour ago, Pioneer1 said:


Since you both grew up Uptown in the 70s you DO realize that many of the rappers like Jay Z, 

Who told you a self acknowledged drug dealer was a 5%. Do you know why they are called 5 percenters?

1 hour ago, Pioneer1 said:


They often call eachother "god" and "cipher".

What's your source. 

I never heard any called cipher growing up. Do you know what it means? 

 

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5 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

'll tell you why.....right AFTER you tell me why if Malik (whom you still call "Malcolm")   "told it like it was" and was the example of a real man who reminded you of a father figure then why the hell didn't YOU join the movement so that you could either MEET a man like that or support it simply to encourage them to keep producing more men like that.

Take this straw man argument and shove it. I never said Malcolm, who was only  8 years my senior, was a father figure to me!  That's your distorted BS, portraying me as a being some awe struck youngster because i appreciated him telling it like it was  when it came to white treachery, something i made clear was nothing new to me because i'd heard my father say it all before! Your whole concocted scenario is, as usual, off kilter. You seem to think that i just had some kind of an epiphany about Malcolm X and that my opinion of him changed from what it has always been. i was never impressed by how he was duped by Elijah Muhammad and how he swallowed that silly story about how some black scientist created white men.   He was never anyone i was interested in becoming a follower of, because his vision of an all-black  state was a pie in the sky dream  and all of his revolutionary rhetoric was wishful thinking.  I still call him Malcolm X just like everybody else because that's who he was to me.  His  adopted name Malik is just trivia. Malcolm X was an articulate charismatic figure during the black struggle, but not someone i idolized.  He was no more manly than a  lot of other black men who were civil rights activists. My perspective of him is the same as it has always been.  And i am not a child abuse crsader  but i am a truth teller and nobody can deny the facts about Elijah Muhammad being a lecherous child molester. And the reason i never considered joining the NOI was that nothing about its leader and its stringent, dreary lifestyle appealed to me.  So your rebuttal is a crock of crap. You just made a ranting fool of yourself. 

 

5 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

Don't wait 50 years later when Malik has gone off the scene to start praising him as a real "man's man".
You had your opportunity to do it when he was alive.

The only reason you CLAIM to respect and admire him now is because he's gone and not on this site calling you out on your hypocrisy.

Oh, puleeze.   I didn't wait 50 years to start praising Malcolm.  i did gave him his props when he was alive.   I said that back then i appreciated him reprimanding white people.  You don't know whether you are coming or going; drowning in your false equivalency arguments. And when did i call him a "real man's man"?? Once  again you are misrepresenting me!  What i actually said was that i would be arguing with him if he was alive today, and would sarcastically imply that the only men Muslim women needed to be protected from was chauvinistic Muslim men. Hypocrisy, hell.   

 

As for you treatise about Elijah Muhammad and the black Muslims having more impact on black America than any other organization, it's just a bunch of half-truths and exaggerations by someone desperate to defend his position.  NOI's impact is no greater than any other civil rights or literary or fraternal or musical  movement in the black spectrum. And today the NOI is just a residue of the past.  BTW, i don't really give a damn why you didn't join the Muslims.  Who cares?????    Yawn. 

 

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Del

Do you know why Professor Grif was kicked out of PE?


According to what he's said it was because Chuck and some others were pressured into kicking him out over alleged anti-semitic remarks he made while in Europe.

 


 

Who told you a self acknowledged drug dealer was a 5%. Do you know why they are called 5 percenters?


Lol.....
That MUST be a rhetorical question.
Why in the world would I tell you about an organization I didn't know about myself????

Jay-Z repeatedly refers to himself as "god" and "cipher" in his songs.
And there are many who claim the Five Percent who also sell drugs, smoke weed, and steal.
They are called "POOR Righteous Teachers" because poor doesn't just mean financially poor but also a term used for empathy.




What's your source. 

I never heard any called cipher growing up. Do you know what it means?
Because they would stand around in circles (cipher = 0) and recite the Nation of Islam lessons.




Cynique

 

As for you treatise about Elijah Muhammad and the black Muslims having more impact on black America than any other organization,

 

I never said that.
Lol, you really need to stop yawning and pay attention.

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15 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

If you wanna start condemning organizations that abuse young children, take your ass to the nearest Catholic church and START THERE

 

Ouch!

 

14 hours ago, Delano said:

Based on various chauvinistic and misogynistic statements made by the male members.

 

Spare us the self congratulatory hyperbole and the gross offensive generalization.

 

@Delano you really seem to be bending over backwards to gain the approval of women, even going so far as hurl harsher criticism, than necessary, at the men here in order to gain the approval of the women here. 

 

 

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15 hours ago, Delano said:

Why not ask  the women their perspective? 

 

@Delano Thank Del!

 

14 hours ago, Delano said:

Who told you a self acknowledged drug dealer was a 5%. Do you know why they are called 5 percenters?

 

Wow! This a hot debate going on, and I have been wondering about some of these same questions! I have heard about 5 percenters and Clarence X and etc. but never could understand completely. 

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6 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

Because they would stand around in circles (cipher = 0) and recite the Nation of Islam lessons.

 

Wow. I never knew this. Thanks. Who is Professor Grif!?

 

1 hour ago, Troy said:

you really seem to be bending over backwards to gain the approval of women, even going so far as hurl harsher criticism, than necessary, at the men here in order to gain the approval of the women here. 

 

@Troy As for me, I just want to be appreciated for the good that I do for our people, humanity, as a whole. I don't care for being idolized just because of my gender. 

@Cynique mentioned in another thread her position as 'an ICONOCLAST'; that's me too. I don't want to be idolized just because 'I am a Black Woman'; I want to earn my respect. 

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@Pioneer1 Your  examples didn't live up to your ongoing NOI hyperbole.  Kareem Abdul JAbbar was not a product of the NOI.  The NOI had no influence on Cassius Clay being a skilled boxer. Black Christian Churches and fraternal organization have always referred to fellow members as brother and sister. Hip-Hop would've come into its own without the NOI. Black Panthers are who popularized the term black is beautiful or did referring to negroes as the black man originate with the NOI. The Million Man March was nothing but a gathering which had no trickle down effect when it came to improving the plight of black men. 

 

18 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

Lol, you really need to stop yawning and pay attention.

Better i yawn, than barf which is really what your nauseating blather induces.  

On 12/9/2018 at 6:06 PM, Pioneer1 said:

If you wanna start condemning organizations that abuse young children, take your ass to the nearest Catholic church and START THERE and perhaps you may have just a little more credibility with me.

 

 Having credibility with you is not a goal i have set for myself.  It would be a step backward.  There's nothing more to  say about the Catholic Church's history of child abuse that hasn't already been said by Catholics and others.  I put Catholic priests in the same category as Elijah Muhammad, and it goes without saying that they are also lecherous predators. 2 wrongs don't make a right, Dummy. 

 

11 hours ago, Chevdove said:

Cynique mentioned in another thread her position as 'an ICONOCLAST'; that's me too. I don't want to be idolized just because 'I am a Black Woman'; I want to earn my respect

@Chevdove  that's pretty much what the situation currently is. LOL Black men are not into idolizing their women, and we sure have earn their respect, something which often amounts to just conceding to them.  At this point i don't have any expectations.  Black men have to earn my respect before i value theirs. And this varies from situation to situation... 

 

 

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8 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

Jay-Z repeatedly refers to himself as "god" and "cipher" in his songs.

What do you think he means?

So PE is influenced by NOI but dropped Grif for his statement, okay. 

8 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

And there are many who claim the Five Percent who also sell drugs, smoke weed, and steal.

What do you think? 

3 hours ago, Troy said:

 

@Delano you really seem to be bending over backwards to gain the approval of women, even going so far as hurl harsher criticism, than necessary, at the men here in order to gain the approval of the women here

 

1 hour ago, Chevdove said:
17 hours ago, Delano said:

Why not ask  the women their perspective? 

 

@Delano Thank Del!

 

8 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

Jay-Z repeatedly refers to himself as "god" and "cipher" in his songs.

For rappers it's a bunch of rappers on a circle trading rhymes. So using a word in a different context makes him influenced by Islam. Really

If you had said Lord Lamar was influenced I would have thought you knew what you were talking about. Or even Mos Def. 

 

The 5% used to have a table and sell magazines mish wack incense and essence oils. I bought it all. What about you or is your experience second hand, hearsay or from a search engine. 

The 5% of the Nation that is not asleep. @Chevdove

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On 12/3/2018 at 1:43 AM, Pioneer1 said:


I don't give a shit IF he banged 10,000 young secretaries and was smiling to himself while I was doing it!

@Troy what was your response to this statement. 

On 12/5/2018 at 2:02 PM, Troy said:

 

In terms of telling others what their position should be we all do this to a certain extent including you.  You were involved in the fruitless effort to help Pioneer understand the "help" and "assist." If you were not trying to tell Pioneer what to think, what were you trying to do? (Not sure why I bothered to ask that question you will not answer it... )

@Pioneer1 do you think I was telling you what to think. 

The same thing I attempted with  you and global warming. Presenting both sides and asking you to think about it.

In this example I have changed my mind there's a slight difference between the two words. 

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@Delano I'll extend you the courtesy of actually answering your question, a courtesy you rarely extend to me.

 

1st, I'm not going to react to a statement out of context.  That is for places like Twitter.

 

2nd go back and read the entire conversation there you can actually read my response.

 

Finally, think. Stop generalizing and stop jumping to conclusions about situtations you can't possibly know, understand, and even prove like MLK's sexuality. What you are doing is no different than gossiping... 

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19 hours ago, Cynique said:

Black men have to earn my respect before i value theirs. And this varies from situation to situation... 

 

@Cynique LOL I agree. 

 

 

And, I do not want to be idolized and have no intention of idolizing any man.

 

@Delano WOW! Thanks! Very informative link! 

 

https://www.thedailybeast.com/word-is-bond-an-ex-con-explains-the-5-percenters

 

I've learned a lot today.  From this article, it seems that this 5 Percenters group stems from prison!? 

That is kind of depressing too, in that all of this rhetoric comes from mostly Blacks who are stuck under the American prison system. They are stuck under the Slave Master, and all the while trying to come to terms with their existence. 

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