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Malcolm X Debates Evie Rich (1961) - This is Deep


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7 hours ago, Delano said:

@Troy what was your response to this statement. 

@Pioneer1 do you think I was telling you what to think. 

The same thing I attempted with  you and global warming. Presenting both sides and asking you to think about it.

In this example I have changed my mind there's a slight difference between the two words. 

 

Let me make a correction on that statement you quoted that I didn't notice until you quoted it:

I meant to write if he were banging them and HE were smiling, not if I were smiling.

Other than that, my statement still stands.

As long as they were above puberty and he didn't physically force himself on them, he's not a monster in my opinion.

Would I have done it? No
Do I think it was inappropriate? Maybe

However like I said, I judge a man on the wealth of his deeds not on bits and snippets and again, as far as I'm concerned his sexual behavior was between him, them, Sister Clara Muhammad, and The Supreme Being Who will be his ultimate Judge.

Stop thinking like your oppressor who believes that having sex with someone is the worst thing in the world.
They'll go to a nation and slaughter THOUSANDS of people....men, women, and children with weapons.....and get called a "hero".
But if that same person instead decided to grab someone and f*ck them instead of killing them, they would be called the worst of scum.
Why?
Because SEX is the "orignal sin" in the Caucasian psyche......not violence.
Which is why graphic violence is allowed on U.S. televison but nudity isn't.

Stop thinking like your oppressor Del.

A man who has sex a lot of indiscriminate sex isn't the worst person in the world.

 

 

 

Chev

Professor Griff was a member of the 80s/90s rap group Public Enemy.
 

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Elijah Muhammed raped teenage Black Girls. 

 

Pioneer doesn't care.

Troy doesn't believe it.

Nubian is silent.

 

I take the women's side. 

 

And the gentlemen side with a rapist. 

4 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

Stop thinking like your oppressor Del.
A man who has sex a lot of indiscriminate sex isn't the worst person in the world.

 

I can't defend a man who is a serial rapist.  

 

6 hours ago, Troy said:

elano I'll extend you the courtesy of actually answering your question, a courtesy you rarely extend to me.

 

1st, I'm not going to react to a statement out of context.  That is for places like Twitter.

 

2nd go back and read the entire conversation there you can actually read my response.

Great answer. 

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6 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

Stop thinking like your oppressor who believes that having sex with someone is the worst thing in the world.
They'll go to a nation and slaughter THOUSANDS of people....men, women, and children with weapons.....and get called a "hero".
But if that same person instead decided to grab someone and f*ck them instead of killing them, they would be called the worst of scum.
Why?

@Pioneer1 What a ridiculous statement.  Where do you get the idea that white people think having sex is the worst thing in the world?? Whites didn't praise their conquerors for pillaging  or condemn them for rape, They just ignored both of these atrocities. I guess you think white slave masters should be given a thumb's up because  what they were doing to their black female slaves was merciful.  SMH

 

This issue is not about race. It is about a female of any age and color having a right to not  be sexually taken advantage of by a  horny pussy monger. Many girls reach puberty at 12, so  according to your standards, this makes them sexually "eligible " for the lust of predators, an attitude which also includes your thinking that black people are more prone to indulge in wanton sex and this is something to boast about.  Even in the animal kingdom, the female of the species selects a mate from all the males trying to impress her, and her choice is the one she discerns would be a good sire for her offspring. But not in your world where it's OK for black folks to just indiscriminately indulge their insatiable desire to copulate because this and the resulting babies are what comes natural to them. 

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57 minutes ago, Cynique said:

This issue is not about race. It is about a female of any age and color having a right to not  be sexually taken advantage of by a  horny pussy monger.

If I follow Pioneer's logic then if you are a leader your followers should give you access to their children. 

What if it were teenage boys. Would your position change. @Pioneer1

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Hey @Cynique i seem to recall you saying you knew one of the offspring of Elijah Muhammad's children. Do you have any insight on her take of the whole situation?

 

While Del was obviously there, I'd like to get another perspective. 

 

@Delano here again you are jumping to conclusions and passing judgement. I said i have no idea what happened, so I'm not prepared to condemn anyone, or the entire NOI, based upon what YOU say.

 

You whimsically, and without a shred of evidence, say MLK had sex with men. You then expect your Brothers to assess his legacy on your imagination. 

 

Keep on spreading gossip, just don't expect me to feed into it.

 

I guess you've already condemned Neil deGrasse Tyson huh?

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2 hours ago, Troy said:

@Delano here again you are jumping to conclusions and passing judgement. I said i have no idea what happened

What judgement. Please post the judgement I made about homosexuality. 

@Troy

Anyone else feel free since I don't believe I made a judgement or even a statement that could be perceived as such. 

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6 hours ago, Troy said:

Hey @Cynique i seem to recall you saying you knew one of the offspring of Elijah Muhammad's children. Do you have any insight on her take of the whole situation?

 Well, we were acquaintances,  not friends since we did not run in the same circles because she was, as we used to call them, "sanctified", a member of the Church of God in Christ which back then forbade its women to wear lipstick, and frowned on drinking and smoking and dancing and playing cards. So her life was pretty much what it would've been had she been raised as a member of the NOI.  Her name was Beatrice and she was an attractive girl and a choir soloist with a beautiful singing voice and a pleasant personality and was cherished by the congregation of her father's church.  But her life took a detour when she was not only whispered about for being a daughter of Elijah Muhammad, - something that didn't come out until we were in our 20s when  the black Muslims had become well known -  but for what happened later when she again became the subject of more gossip after she was left "standing at the altar" in her white wedding gown because the groom never showed up for the rumored reason of being gay. She never wed and became an evangelist and died young, in her early 50s. i have no idea how she felt about the circumstances of her birth but she did have kind, loving adopted parents.  There were a lot of little interesting back stories and skeletons in the closet  among the black population in the small town where i grew up...  

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19 hours ago, Cynique said:

Many girls reach puberty at 12, so  according to your standards, this makes them sexually "eligible " for the lust of predators, an attitude which also includes your thinking that black people are more prone to indulge in wanton sex and this is something to boast about.

 

Yeah, after puberty is 12 or 13 -- a Child!

 

On 12/11/2018 at 9:21 AM, Pioneer1 said:

As long as they were above puberty and he didn't physically force himself on them, he's not a monster in my opinion.

 

@Pioneer1 This is horrible. A man saying that 'he didn't force himself on a 12 year old' -- AND WHAT IN THE HELL COULD SHE SAY TO DEFEND HERSELF AGAINST A GROWN ASS MAN, SAYING THAT SHE WOULD HAVE AGREED!?

 

This makes me sick.

 

I don't think the age of consent is 12, 13, 14 or even 15 and ?

On 12/11/2018 at 9:21 AM, Pioneer1 said:

However like I said, I judge a man on the wealth of his deeds not on bits and snippets and again, as far as I'm concerned his sexual behavior was between him, them, Sister Clara Muhammad, and The Supreme Being Who will be his ultimate Judge.

 

His wealth of deeds is about him having sex with teenage girls. That's where the buck should have stopped...he should have been confronted by Sister Clara Muhammad, and the government. That is what the Supreme Being did, give governments a chance to intervene and do their job! 

On 12/11/2018 at 9:21 AM, Pioneer1 said:

Stop thinking like your oppressor who believes that having sex with someone is the worst thing in the world.

 

Having sex with a child can be deemed the worst thing in the world!

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19 hours ago, Delano said:

If I follow Pioneer's logic then if you are a leader your followers should give you access to their children. 

What if it were teenage boys. Would your position change. @Pioneer1

 

More LIES and garbage.

Just like you've lied on Martin Luther King and couldn't back it up when challenged to do so.
Lied on Malik Shabazz and couldn't back it up when challenged.
I challenge you to back up the lie you just told on me.

My position isn't the one that needs to change because I'm not the one constantly churning out lies in order to slander and defame.



 

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Chev
 

Quote

 


 

Yeah, after puberty is 12 or 13 -- a Child!

 

 

@Pioneer1 This is horrible. A man saying that 'he didn't force himself on a 12 year old' -- AND WHAT IN THE HELL COULD SHE SAY TO DEFEND HERSELF AGAINST A GROWN ASS MAN, SAYING THAT SHE WOULD HAVE AGREED!?

 

This makes me sick.

 

I don't think the age of consent is 12, 13, 14 or even 15 and ?
 

His wealth of deeds is about him having sex with teenage girls. That's where the buck should have stopped...he should have been confronted by Sister Clara Muhammad, and the government. That is what the Supreme Being did, give governments a chance to intervene and do their job! 

 

Having sex with a child can be deemed the worst thing in the world!

 

 

???????

 

Not sure where all this talk of "12" and "13" year old girls is coming from........


What I've heard for years was that Elijah slept with his "young secretaries" and some of them were teenagers but I haven't heard any specific ages.

Since this discussion I've actually tried to look up the ages of these girls/young ladies he allegedly had affairs with and I couldn't find any specific ages .
 

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3 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

Not sure where all this talk of "12" and "13" year old girls is coming from........

YOU are who brought up the subject of puberty being what transforms a female into a sex object.  This subject is not only about Elijah Muhammad but about your philosophy in general when it comes to male entitlement.

 

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1 hour ago, Cynique said:

YOU are who brought up the subject of puberty being what transforms a female into a sex object.  This subject is not only about Elijah Muhammad but about your philosophy in general when it comes to male entitlement.

 


Oh?

Well if I said that then PLEASE provide a quote from me actually saying this.

Last time I checked the only thing I said that came remotely close to this is when I said as long as the females are ABOVE puberty then.... (not that it's OK even then if you're already married to someone because I don't advocate adultery).......I don't give a damn.
Those affairs would be between them and his wife, not us.

I won't tolerate pedophilia in society but I WILL tolerate adultery although I don't like it because although it's immoral (in my opinion) it's not AS immoral and harmful.
Speaking of which......

Why is it all about "male entitlement"?

 

Incase you've been living under a ROCK (where squirmish creatures like you often dwell....lol) for the past 20 years, you'll notice that the vast majority of cases involving adults taking advantage of those too young for them have actually been WOMEN.

Female teachers who can't seem to help themselves and end up sleeping with the boys they're suppose to be teaching!

Society started off feeling sorry for these maniacs but it's gotten so bad now and so many teachers are sleeping with these boys that judges are being FORCED by society to give these women prison time.



 

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6 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

More LIES and garbage.

Just like you've lied on Martin Luther King and couldn't back it up when challenged to do so.
Lied on Malik Shabazz and couldn't back it up when challenged.

I am posing questions. In case it wasn't clear. Malcolm and Martin sex life is conjecture and even if it was true it doesn't change how I see them. That was the question. So now I have answered my own question. 

 

Instead of assuming I am slandering Martin and Malcolm you could have asked. No you prefer not asking the person their views.

@Troy

@Pioneer1

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6 minutes ago, Delano said:

I am posing questions. In case it wasn't clear. Malcolm and Martin sex life is conjecture and even if it was true it doesn't change how I see them. That was the question. So now I have answered my own question. 

 

Instead of assuming I am slandering Martin and Malcolm you could have asked. No you prefer not asking the person their views.

@Troy

@Pioneer1

 

The problem is you are presenting declarations IN the questions you're asking.
 

You've already declared.....as if it were established truth.....that King was having affairs with men and then proceeded from there to question what affect it had on his legacy.

But it hasn't even been proven NOR has any evidence been presented by you or anyone else that King indeed WAS having sexual relations with me.

You shouldn't ask questions based on false pretenses.

 

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1 hour ago, Pioneer1 said:

Well if I said that then PLEASE provide a quote from me actually saying this.

 

7 hours ago, Chevdove said:
On 12/11/2018 at 8:21 AM, Pioneer1 said:

As long as they were above puberty and he didn't physically force himself on them, he's not a monster in my opinion.

@Pioneer1 That's is what you wrote. So, in your opinion, once puberty kicks in, a female is fair game for any man seeking sex, no matter what her age is.

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41 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:

The problem is you are presenting declarations IN the questions you're asking

A question is the opposite of a declarative statement. 

 

Here's a gramma lesson Son.

Four Types of Sentences and the Effect of Punctuation

Types of Sentences and Punctuation

When students learn to write, they begin by learning about the four types of sentences and the role punctuation plays in determining and creating those different sentence types.

What Are the Four Types of Sentences?

  • Declarative sentence
  • Imperative sentence
  • Interrogative sentence
  • Exclamatory sentence

And there are only three punctuation marks with which to end a sentence:

  • Period
  • Question mark
  • Exclamation point

Using different types of sentences and punctuation, students can vary the tone of their writing assignments and express a variety of thoughts and emotions.

What is a declarative sentence?

A declarative sentencesimply makes a statement or expresses an opinion. In other words, it makes a declaration. This kind of sentence ends with a period.

Examples of this sentence type:

“I want to be a good writer.”  (makes a statement)

“My friend is a really good writer.” (expresses an opinion)

What is an imperative sentence?

An imperative sentencegives a command or makes a request. It usually ends with a period but can, under certain circumstances, end with  an exclamation point.

Examples of this sentence type:

“Please sit down.”

“I need you to sit down now!”

What is an interrogative sentence?

An interrogative sentenceasks a question. This type of sentence often begins with who, what, where, when, why, how, or do, and it ends with a question mark.

Examples of this sentence type:

“When are you going to turn in your writing assignment?”

“Do you know what the weather will be tomorrow?”

What is an exclamatory sentence?

An exclamatory sentence is a sentence that expresses great emotion such as excitement, surprise, happiness and anger, and ends with an exclamation point.

Examples of this sentence type:

“It is too dangerous to climb that mountain!”

“I got an A on my book report!”

Learning about the different types of sentences and punctuation will help students become better writers by enabling them to convey various types of information and emotion in their writing.

 

47 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:


You shouldn't ask questions based on false pretenses.

 

A question is an inquiry and as such has no pretense.  The exception is a court of law. 

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On 12/3/2018 at 1:43 AM, Pioneer1 said:

Del
 

Let me know if any of that is incomprehensible to either @Troy @Pioneer1 or@NubianFellow

I am awaiting your responses.


My response:

 

Elijah Muhammad was one of the greatest Black men to have been born in the United States.

I don't give a shit IF he banged 10,000 young secretaries and was smiling to himself while he was doing it!

...that's between him-them-and The Supreme Being who is the Ultimate Judge.

When no one else gave a damn about helping Black men...HE DID.
For over 40 years!


I don't agree with everything Elijah Muhammad said or did, but as far as I'm concerned the GOOD he's done for Black America outweighs the bad.
That's my man.

@NubianFellow

@Troy

can you comment on this statement. 

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Cynique
 

That's is what you wrote. So, in your opinion, once puberty kicks in, a female is fair game for any man seeking sex, no matter what her age is.


Instead of GIVING me my opinion, why don't you just accept it as it is written?

Now I know COMPREHENSION isn't your strongest selling point, but try to stay with me here.....lol.


You said:


 

Quote

YOU are who brought up the subject of puberty being what transforms a female into a sex object. This subject is not only about Elijah Muhammad but about your philosophy in general when it comes to male entitlement.


And I'm asking again, IF I said that then PLEASE provide a quote of me saying it!

Again, last time I checked the only thing I said that came remotely close to this is when I said as long as the females are ABOVE puberty then.....(and it's still not necessarily OK if you're already married to someone)....I don't give a damn. Those affairs are between them and his wife, not us.

Now do you have a quote of what you accuse me of or not?

I don't need your interpretation or discernment.....I needs a QUOTE.

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12 hours ago, Chevdove said:

This makes me sick.

 

I don't think the age of consent is 12, 13, 14 or even 15 and ?

 

You know 14, 13 and 12 year old girls can get married in this country today. For MOST of human existence girls this young had children. 

 

The age of consent is not some universal fixed number. 

 

While i dont think a 21 year old should get married. I do agree with Pioneer that there are far worse things that can, and have happened.

 

Let's keep things in perspective 

 

 

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@TroyCould you be more specific about where 13, 14, 15 year old girls can get married?  Speaking of keeping things in perspective, we are are talking about single young girls being taken advantage of by  sexual predators, not teen-age marriage via parental consent, 

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@Cynique I pulled in the entire quote i was reacting to. The issue of age of consent was raised and this what I was reacting to in my remarks.

 

Hopefully i don't have to express my distain for men raping girls this age. 

 

13 hours ago, Chevdove said:

Yeah, after puberty is 12 or 13 -- a Child!

 

On 12/11/2018 at 9:21 AM, Pioneer1 said:

As long as they were above puberty and he didn't physically force himself on them, he's not a monster in my opinion.

 

@Pioneer1 This is horrible. A man saying that 'he didn't force himself on a 12 year old' -- AND WHAT IN THE HELL COULD SHE SAY TO DEFEND HERSELF AGAINST A GROWN ASS MAN, SAYING THAT SHE WOULD HAVE AGREED!?

 

This makes me sick.

 

I don't think the age of consent is 12, 13, 14 or even 15 and ?

 

As far as the laws regarding marriage you can start at wikipedia https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_marriage_in_the_United_States and research the primary sources from there... but you already know how to do this.

 

You also know about men like Jerry Lee Lewis marrying a 13 year old girl...

 

Again this is nothing new. Now the issue of rape is a whole different conversation one which you all know much more about than i do.

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2 hours ago, Troy said:

Let's keep things in perspective 

 

@Troy Keeping things in perspective-- a 12 year old who can reach puberty would be in the 6th grade, that is Elementary School [or MIddle School first year]. To think that a 6th grade child could get married today in the States seems horrible to me, but can you give me an example?

 

I am speaking regarding 'the age of consent', whether in terms of sex or marriage, seems awful. 

IF a child is raped that is human sacrifice IMO and to rate this against 'far worse things that others have suffered' doesn't seem right

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33 minutes ago, Chevdove said:

am speaking regarding 'the age of consent', whether in terms of sex or marriage, seems awful

 

It is awful but some don’t care if it destroys some girl’s life - or her offspring’s life with that man if he’s a “great” by some arbitary standard.  

 

Mainstream media shows that this is the general consensus of the public.  Girls are consumables like sunday dinner offered to “feed” men of  alleged stature. 

 

I do appreciate @Pioneer1 and @Troy being so forthcoming with their position on girls and women.  

 

This should allow them to see how and why feminism has gain strength among women in general but especially black women.  We have to demand equal protection under the law for all aspects or our lives.  Women must protect ourselves financially, spiritually, economically, politically, and physically. 

 

But here’s a perspective to consider, @Troy  and others;  same-sex marriage is legal in this country now.  

 

There are quite a few older men that have had their eyes on tenderoni boys.  And while it is illegal to rape - (although we probably know some men who were raped when they were boys)  these men can now marry boys once they reach puberty too!

 

It really doesn’t matter if these boys want to consent to sex with a man.

 

In fact, these boys may not even know their sexual orientation yet. They weren’t thinking about sex - they were too busy being children.

 

You know, like the 10, 11,12, 13 year old girls who’ve reached puberty and still play with toys, enjoy learning and playing sports , that Pioneer seems to think are fair game.

 

It doesn’t matter what these boys were doing as kids, because those same state’s age-of-consent laws for marriage now also applies to boys.  So now we have boys setting up house with grown men - because it’s legal and shouldn’t have any bearing on the man’s position - if he’s doing great things. 😏

 

<smirking face>

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30 minutes ago, Mel Hopkins said:

There are quite a few older men that have had their eyes on tenderoni boys.  And while it is illegal to rape - (although we probably know some men who were raped when they were boys)  these men can now marry boys once they reach puberty too!

 

@Mel Hopkins LOL!!!!!!!!!!!! BRING IT!!!!! 

 

Now I can sleep..... If I can stop laughing...

 

Really, this ain't funny ... but yeah, how bout it? 

 

"It doesn’t matter what these boys were doing as kids, because those same state’s age-of-consent laws for marriage now also applies to boys.  So now we have boys setting up house with grown men - because it’s legal and shouldn’t have any bearing on the man’s position - if he’s doing great things."

 

I'm just trying to imagine one these fellas or perhpas 'a brotha' from the NOI all dressed up in a tux and in attendance of a wedding of a 6th grade boy being married to a grown man....

 

FAIR GAME????

 

 

3 hours ago, Troy said:

You also know about men like Jerry Lee Lewis marrying a 13 year old girl...

 

@Troy I googled. Funny you would mention this, but did you read the reaction when this secret was let out and how the crowd went crazy on him!? He was completely BLACKLISTED when he returned from London back to the States for years. And I can't figure out how he was not prosecuted? At any rate, the laws today set the age of consent and, he surely would have been in trouble today. 

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8 hours ago, Chevdove said:

To think that a 6th grade child could get married today in the States seems horrible to me, but can you give me an example?

 

I think it is messed up too. Follow up on the link i shared with cynique for more info.

 

6 hours ago, Mel Hopkins said:

I do appreciate @Pioneer1 and @Troy being so forthcoming with their position on girls and women.  

 

Here we go  again... @Mel Hopkins did you miss my statement that i dont think anyone should get married before 21.

 

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2 hours ago, Troy said:

Follow up on the link i shared with cynique for more info.

 

@Troy I posted last night and googled Jerry Lee Lewis, or did I miss another example that you linked?

 

As I did say, the laws today shows that he would have been in a lot of trouble today and this shows that the world did not accept his actions as being acceptable in the least.

It seems obvious that because he became wealthy and famous, the parents of the 13-year-old Myra sacrificed theire daughter for the money, but the masses in both London and the US freaked out! So, the perspective then and now, is that this is completely unacceptable.

 

She even became pregnant and had a son that died by drowning and then she had a daughter that not much is mentioned about. I think this too, has to deal with her being too young and also, they were 'second cousins' and the likelihood of birth defects is kind of hight when it comes to this issue! 

 

So then, if the White world responded as they did against Jerry Lee Lewis for doing this awful thing, then the subject of the leader of the NOI should become obvious in that he too should have been confronted in his actions. Most of all, Black girls don't get the financial compensation for that kind of predatory action coming from Black men or in the past, slave masters. 

 

Let me tell you, I taught Middle School, and the young Black girls 'pop out' meaning, they develop more curves, breast, and etc. much more than the young white girls and were scrutinized negatively much more that the young white girls, nevertheless, they are still so young and they act so innocent, both the white girls and the black girls and etc. The Black female teachers all agreed that the young black girls were being treated wrong in terms of calling their parents and sending them home for not dressing approprately. It was completely obvious. The young white girls wore their skirts extremely short and were never sent home, but the black girls were shamed and sent home! Black girls seem to be treated as if they are grown women, loose women' but the white young girls are treated correctly, like little girls. It is ridiculous. I think it is a conditioning that not only comes from White racism, but many Black people feed into this issue negatively too. 

 

On 12/12/2018 at 11:08 AM, Pioneer1 said:

Not sure where all this talk of "12" and "13" year old girls is coming from........
What I've heard for years was that Elijah slept with his "young secretaries" and some of them were teenagers but I haven't heard any specific ages.
Since this discussion I've actually tried to look up the ages of these girls/young ladies he allegedly had affairs with and I couldn't find any specific ages .

 

@Pioneer1 You mentioned 'puberty'. That begins at the age of about 12 for many females.

Yes, I wouldn't think that the teenagers were as young as 12 or 13, but nevertheless, thankfully, some of the NOI followers responded and did not go along with his actions, but I don't think it was adequate enough based on what happened to Malcolm X [ie Malik]. I didn't know his name was Malik. 

 

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Chedove, the laws vary by jurisdiction but there are states where a 3 can get married under certain circumstances.  One condition usually required is permission of the parents.

 

Yes, Black girls  (women, men, boys, institutions) are treated worse than white girls.  This is America... 

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48 minutes ago, Troy said:

Chedove, the laws vary by jurisdiction but there are states where a 3 can get married under certain circumstances.  One condition usually required is permission of the parents.

 

@Troy I googled last night, and I think the laws have changed. I only saw, Mexico as being the one country that might allow someone that young to marry but they say it is complicated and based on other issues. I think the US has changed that stance a while back. just like the law of 'smoking cigarettes' or 'drinking alcohol', the government has taken the decision out of the parents jurisdiction and preside over these laws, thank God! Because I think Myra was exploited for all that money! Anyway, here are some references that I saw last night:

 

THE AGE OF CONSENT:

ALABAMA

16

Alabama statutory rape law is violated when an individual over age 18 (or 16 or older if the victim is at least 2 years younger than the offender) engages in sexual intercourse with a person over the age of 12 and under age 16.

 

The Alabama Age of Consent is 16 years old. In the United States, the age of consent is the minimum age at which an individual is considered legally old enough to consent to participation in sexual activity. Individuals aged 15 or younger in Alabama are not legally able to consent to sexual activity, and such activity may result in prosecution for statutory rape.

https://www.ageofconsent.net/states/alabama

 

VIRGINIA

18 years old

In Virginia, the age of consent is 18 years old. At that age, a person may legally

consent to sex with any other adult, regardless of the age difference between them. 

https://www.legalmatch.com/law-library/article/virginia-age-of-consent-lawyers.html

 

NEW YORK

17 years old

In New York, the age of consent for sex is 17 years old. This applies to men and

women, and applies to both heterosexual and homosexual conduct. However,

as in many other states, New York has allowances for minors who are below the

age of consent but are close to the same age.

https://www.legalmatch.com/law-library/article/new-york-age-of-consent-lawyers.html

 

 

GEORGIA

16

In Georgia, the age of consent to engage in sex is 16. However, there can be

no conviction for statutory rape in Georgia based only on the unsupported

testimony of the victim. There must be some additional evidence

https://www.legalmatch.com/law-library/article/georgia-age-of-consent-lawyers.html

 

16

RICHMOND — Only adults can get married in Virginia, according to a new law replacing policies

that made it possible for a girl 13 or younger to marry if she had parental consent and was pregnant.

The law, which took effect Friday, sets the minimum marriage age at18, or 16 if a child is emancipated by court order.Jul 3, 2016

https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&authuser=0&ei=lQsSXOQn0O3mAs_5KA&q=legal+age+to+marry+in+va&oq=legal+age+to+ma&gs_l=psy-ab.1.2.0l10.26706.33402..38292...0.0..1.114.2469.36j1......0....1..gws-wiz.....0..0i71j0i67j0i131.awKGNWvoX4Q

 

If you want to get married without parental consent, you need to be at least 18 years old in 48 of the

50 states in the United States. ... Parental consent is needed in Alabama and Utah at age 14, and in Nebraska

and Oregon, the age is 17. The ages for males and females to marry differs in some states.

https://family-law.freeadvice.com/family-law/marriage/parental-consent.htm

 

 

48 minutes ago, Troy said:

Yes, Black girls  (women, men, boys, institutions) are treated worse than white girls.  This is America...

 

Truth, but I still want to emphasize though, even if a White young girl or female in general has become the victim of rape, then that is horrible and it is a terrible act of human violation.  

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Cynique


THIS IS WHAT YOU SAID. How does this differ from what i said you implied.


Well for one thing, the WORDS are different.

I said: "
As long as they were above puberty and he didn't physically force himself on them"

YOU said: "YOU are who brought up the subject of puberty being what transforms a female into a sex object."

 

These are two TOTALLY different positions about when a female is ready for sex.
-One is at the onset of puberty....which was YOUR accusatory statement.
-The other is above or after the processes of puberty....which is my ACTUAL statement.


 

 

 


Mel

 

This should allow them to see how and why feminism has gain strength among women in general but especially black women. We have to demand equal protection under the law for all aspects or our lives. Women must protect ourselves financially, spiritually, economically, politically, and physically.


I already KNOW atleast some of the reasons why feminism has gained strength among many Black women.

Number one, it's driven by the anger and hatred many AfroAmerican women have towards AfroAmerican men AS WELL as the ignorance many AfroAmerican women have about their own sexuality and African  sexuality in general.

Further, they see aligning themselves with Caucasian feminists as an opportunity to gain economic and political influence and power without realizing the tremendous toll it will take not only on them but the lives of future generations who will end up psychologically damaged and morally confused from their unwise alliances.







You know, like the 10, 11,12, 13 year old girls who’ve reached puberty and still play with toys, enjoy learning and playing sports , that Pioneer seems to think are fair game.


This is an outright lie!
No basis of truth to this whatsoever.

I'm not suprised at Cynique making up statements and pinning them on me because she get's desperate from time to time and can't help herself.
I was but am NO LONGER suprised that Del would make up false statements....given his behavior these past few days.
But as good at you are at arguing established points and using a person's actual words against them during disagreement, I must admit I'm suprised you felt a need to MAKE UP statements and accuse me of them.

I challenge you to find any quote of me saying this.

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On 12/12/2018 at 8:46 PM, Cynique said:
On 12/12/2018 at 4:03 PM, Cynique said:

"As long as they were above puberty and he didn't physically force himself on them, he's not a monster in my opinion."

 

@Pioneer1The above italicized sentence in quotes is exactly and completely what you wrote.   i don't have to read between the lines or imagine what you are implying.  Your words speak for themselves in spite of your devious attempt to do damage control. 

1 hour ago, Pioneer1 said:

Which is all the more reason you should focus on what I actually write and take it for what it is instead of trying to discern what I'm "really implying between the lines in coded langage".

You can try and wiggle out of what you wrote and omit parts of it, but all your convoluted rebuttal proves is how you are so invested in your need to be right that truth becomes the nemesis of your ego. Your transparency betrays you and all of your subterfuge  fails miserably when it come to your trying to defuse your words. If you didn't think what you wrote debased you then you wouldn't be trying so desperately to sanitize your opinion.The fact that you misspelled "language" is a subliminal clue not a coded signal.  

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23 minutes ago, Cynique said:

 

@Pioneer1The above italicized sentence in quotes is exactly and completely what you wrote.   i don't have to read between the lines or imagine what you are implying.  Your words speak for themselves in spite of your devious attempt to do damage control. 

 

 


The only "damage" that needs to be controlled is the damage that has been done to your already compromised brain power.
And trying to control IT from further damage is above my pay grade.

 

You lied on me.....plain and simple.
Just like Del and Mel have done in this thread although perhaps for different reasons.

You know you can't win an argument with me based on the FACTS of what I wrote so you had to make up outrageous and inflammatory statements and try and PIN them on me.  When I expose the fact that those statements didn't come from me and challenge you to prove otherwise, you THEN resort to Woman-splaining and trying to tell me what I'm "implying" or RE-interpreting what I clearly said to give it another meaning to justify your argument.
All done in an attempt to demonize me and my position and make yourself look morally superior.

My words are my words and they stand as they are, they need no extra interpretation or intervention from you.

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Grasping at straws.  I've never 

2 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:

You lied on me.....plain and simple.
Just like Del and Mel have done in this thread although perhaps for different reasons.

That's a lie. You think that simply contradicting the truth about yourself will dispel it.  I quoted you exactly.  But your personality disorder traps you in denial. Accusing everybody of lying about you says more about you than them. Delusion is the glue that holds you together. Without it you'd have a mental meltdown.  

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15 minutes ago, Cynique said:

Grasping at straws.  I've never 

That's a lie. You think that simply contradicting the truth about yourself will dispel it.  I quoted you exactly.  But your personality disorder traps you in denial. Accusing everybody of lying about you says more about you than them. Delusion is the glue that holds you together. Without it you'd have a mental meltdown.  


You quoted me exactly only AFTER lying on me.

When demanded proof of your claims you quoted my words but then CLAIMED that they actually meant something else other than what I said they did.

You CLAIMED that I "implied" puberty itself makes one ready for sex.
I actually said as long as they are ABOVE puberty it may or may not be ok but I don't give a damn.
Even when forced to quote me you tried to RE-interpret what I said.

 

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Being "above puberty" gives you no leeway inasmuch as puberty commonly begins at about 12.  In my response to your denial, i did not interpret what you said.  i just ignored your bogus rationale  You just cannot deal with reality when it comes to yourself.  You're a waste of time.  

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5 minutes ago, Cynique said:

Being "above puberty" gives you no leeway inasmuch as puberty commonly begins at about 12.  In my response to your denial, i did not interpret what you said.  i just ignored your bogus rationale  You just cannot deal with reality when it comes to yourself.  You're a waste of time.  


It doesn't matter when puberty "begins".

ABOVE puberty means what I just said....ABOVE/BEYOND/AFTER the process of puberty!

Who in the hell have YOU met who finished puberty at 12, 13, or even 14??????

You're not ABOVE puberty in those ages, you're IN puberty.



See, you really need to bring an end to your campaign of lying and attempts at mischaracterization.

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2 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

who in the hell have YOU met who finished puberty at 12, 13, or even 14??????

Me, and my 2 daughters among many others.

              

                (1)  puberty:  the period during which adolescents reach sexual maturity and become capable of reproduction: 

                (2) puberty:  In humans, puberty occurs at the onset of adolescence, between the ages of about 11 and 14 in girls and 13 and 16 in boys.

 

The subject under discussion was child predators. That's the context in which you made your statement.  Above the age of puberty does not exempt teen-aged minors from being preyed on by these molesters.     

 

 

 

 

 

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18 hours ago, Chevdove said:

Troy I googled last night, and I think the laws have changed. I only saw, Mexico as being the one country that might allow someone that young to marry but they say it is complicated and based on other issues

 

This is simply not true Chevdove. Here us another site you xan check out. https://family.findlaw.com/marriage/state-by-state-marriage-age-of-consent-laws.html you'll see California, for example, has no minimum age for marriage.

 

But my MAIN point was the fact that for most human history (incluing this country)  14 year girls olds engaged in sex with older people. 

 

What im saying is that we can not place our morals on others. Just because you and I  might find something reprehesible, does not mean it is. We can call it pedophila and rape others call it love.

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1 hour ago, Troy said:

What im saying is that we can not place our morals on others. Just because you and I  might find something reprehesible, does not mean it is. We can call it pedophila and rape others call it love.

 

@Troy  I read what you wrote about California. Wow! But did you read my references? I was under the understanding that this issue was still based on parental consent.

Based on most of the laws in the US, I would believe that this has become an issue of a long process of looking at experiences of these 14 year old and younger children. 

I think it now has become an issue about DATA and not 'placing morals on others'. It seems to be a governmental issue, meaning the government has taken control due to what has happened in the past with such things as 'child labor' and etc. I'm sure there are still children being forced to work in sweat shops today, but it is not an issue of morals after so many hundreds of years of observation. It is not an issue of my belief anymore. Pedophilia is well defined, rape is well defined. 

 

The example you posed about Jerry lee lewis, you don't think that the massive response is suitable enough to show how the world views this issue, and since then, how the government has repsonded?

 

Troy What about @Mel Hopkins statement; you would not have a problem with a boy in the 6 grade getting married to an adult male? You would call that love?

12 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

I said: "As long as they were above puberty and he didn't physically force himself on them"

 

@Pioneer1 Yes. thank you Pioneer, for emphasizing what your main focus has been on!!!

 

I can see that for you and perhaps other men, your idea of 'physically forcing himself on a girl above puberty' seems okay. But I think that as a woman, especially due to being in a position where a man is 'sweet talking' and trying to take it to that next levely, we woman see from another point-of-view'. 

I think it may be, as the saying goes, 'men are from mars and women are from venus'.

As a woman, I know that a lot of girls are tricked into going to the next level and have been railroaded, but men perhaps here these stories and still think and believe the man's view in that the girl consented.

 

That is why I am so grateful for the laws about 'age of consent'! It helps, but on a little!!!!!

 

Side Story: I remember when I was in high school in California and I was mesmerized by this guy. He had already graduated but he was pursuing me hard. He was drafted into the football team in Stanford. So, I gave in to him and agreed to meet with him . . . during school hours. Our school was easy to walk off with any problems. So, I 'skipped school that day'. I walked home as he instructed. Then, I was SO HOPING that he did not come and knock on that door! . . . but he did! OMG! I couldn't believe it! I panicked. But, I decided--NOOOOO!!! And I thought if I let him know that I am here and I open the door and let him in, I will be . . . So, I tip toed all the way back to my parents bedroom and sat on the floor, behind their bed... and listened to him knocking, what seemed like forever! LOL! He knocked for about 30 minutes! Finally, he left! WHEW! Close call.

 

I was 16. Thank God for this country now, after slavery, and their age of consent. WHEW! I did not consent, but I'm sure he could have sweet talked me into . . . 

 

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12 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

I already KNOW atleast some of the reasons why feminism has gained strength among many Black women.

 

I know too, that many Black women have been hurt and abandoned. And, I believe for this reason, many of them have turned to other ways to gain that acknowledgement that they so deserve. This government has done so much damage to us. They have encouraged our gender conflicts because it gives them power over us.

@Pioneer1 

 

Number one, it's driven by the anger and hatred many AfroAmerican women have towards AfroAmerican men AS WELL as the ignorance many AfroAmerican women have about their own sexuality and African  sexuality in general.

Further, they see aligning themselves with Caucasian feminists as an opportunity to gain economic and political influence and power without realizing the tremendous toll it will take not only on them but the lives of future generations who will end up psychologically damaged and morally confused from their unwise alliances.

 

 

I agree.

 

Respect-Women-Quotes-images-6.jpg

 

 

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On 12/13/2018 at 9:08 AM, Troy said:

Here we go  again... @Mel Hopkins did you miss my statement that i dont think anyone should get married before 21.

 

@Troy what you “think” and the tacit support you seem to offer others who practice child rape and child-marriage  sends a conflicting message. 

 

So let me be very clear. 

 

Both parties need to be of the age of consent to enter into marriage.  In some states this is not the case which mean a guardian must sign for a minor. That is considered a FORCED marriage.

 

Both parties must be able to consent to engage in sex. This applies to  both singles and married couples .  A husband can’t force a wife to have sex and vice-versa. If this occurs it’s rape.

 

 Anyone under the age of consent is considered an “infant” in legal terms or minor in lay terms.   Infants cannot consent to anything.  

 

A guardian or a parent can’t consent to sex for a child in any state in the U.S.A 

further it is ILLEGAL to have sex with anyone 13 or younger.

 

It’s not love to force their selves  or commit an illegal act against a child.  

 

@Pioneer1 where’s the lie? 

 

”Above puberty” was your cut off point. 

 

Most girls are “ABOVE” puberty by 12...in many cases 10-years-old.   It is only force if an adult man is having sex with a girl who is “ABOVE” puberty.  

 

Maybe you might want to include an age to clarify what you consider above puberty. Children UNDER the Age of Consent, in most cases, are “ABOVE puberty

 

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Pioneer repeatedly accused me of lying when it came to his position on sex between adult males and young females. This is how it went down: He said "As long as they were above puberty and he didn't physically force himself on them, he's not a monster in my opinion."  In another exchange between us, I reminded: "So in your opinion once puberty kicks in a female is fair game for any man seeking sex, no mater what her age is."  Later i said to him: YOU are who brought up the subject of puberty being what transforms a female into a sex object. This subject is not only about Elijah Muhammad but about your philosophy in general when it comes to male entitlement". This was his  response: "the only thing I said that came remotely close to this is when I said as long as the females are ABOVE puberty then.....(and it's still not necessarily OK if you're already married to someone)....I don't give a damn. Those affairs are between them and his wife, not us."  What he calls "lies", i call "implications".  Bottom line;  he left himself open for my interpretations. When a person tells you his opinion - believe him!  Pioneer's confusion about the duration of puberty also didn't help his case.  So he and i remain at an impasse - as usual.

 

                (1)  puberty:  the period during which adolescents reach sexual maturity and become capable of reproduction: 

                (2) puberty:  In humans, puberty occurs at the onset of adolescence, between the ages of about 11 and 14 in girls and 13 and 16 in boys.

 

Pioneer also accused Mel of lying about him.  

2 hours ago, Mel Hopkins said:

@Pioneer1where’s the lie? 

 

”Above puberty” was your cut off point. 

 

Most girls are “ABOVE” puberty by 12...in many cases 10-years-old.   It is only force if an adult man is having sex with a girl who is “ABOVE” puberty.  

 

Maybe you might want to include an age to clarify what you consider above puberty. Children UNDER the Age of Consent, in most cases, are “ABOVE puberty."

 

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On 12/14/2018 at 8:47 AM, Chevdove said:

Troy What about @Mel Hopkins statement; you would not have a problem with a boy in the 6 grade getting married to an adult male? You would call that love?

 

You obviously missed my statement that I do not think ANYONE should get married before 21 today. Why do you think anyone here is advocating for a 6th grade boy to marry an adult male -- where are you getting this; certainly not from me.

 

23 hours ago, Mel Hopkins said:

the tacit support you seem to offer others who practice child rape

 

Come on people I'm not advocating or supporting anyone raping ANYONE sheesh!  This is NOT a case of my miscommunication or my part either -- can we get past this point?  It is not one of contention.

 

Mel you obviously know more about why people have sex than I.  I was just stating the fact that it is indeed legal for a 14-year-old to get married (under a variety of conditions) and for most of the time human have been on earth 14 girls have been engaing in sex and making babies.  YOu can call this forced or rape that is up to you. I'm not making any value judgments.  I'll let you do that. Just stop accusing me of advocating for rape.

 

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45 minutes ago, Troy said:

Mel you obviously know more about why people have sex than I.  I was just stating the fact that it is indeed legal for a 14-year-old to get married (under a variety of conditions) and for most of the time human have been on earth 14 girls have been engaing in sex and making babies.  YOu can call this forced or rape that is up to you. I'm not making any value judgments.  I'll let you do that. Just stop accusing me of advocating for rape.

 

I know when sex is ILLEGAL -something that seems to escape you...

 

Oddly, you say you know how long 14 year old girls have been having  sex and giving birth ... which is why it appears you are making a value judgment - since you conveniently left out of this equation adult men forcing themselves on children. 

 

Now, if I missed you condeming that behavior; your values are on full display.  

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On 12/16/2018 at 4:37 AM, Troy said:

 -- can we get past this point?  It is not one of contention

Clearly it is. And this is interesting. If something isn't a problem for you that doesn't automatically make it cool for someone else. This is a dynamic that seems to elude you. And make you appear to lack empathy. 

On 12/16/2018 at 5:21 AM, Mel Hopkins said:

 

Now, if I missed you condeming that behavior; your values are on full display.  

You don't see this do you, @Troy ?

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Cynique

Me, and my 2 daughters among many others.

(1) puberty: the period during which adolescents reach sexual maturity and become capable of reproduction:

(2) puberty: In humans, puberty occurs at the onset of adolescence, between the ages of about 11 and 14 in girls and 13 and 16 in boys.

Like I said, COMPREHENSION isn't your strong point.....lol.

That definition.....which looks to be based on Caucasian children and their average development...claims that puberty OCCURS AT THE ONSET...between the ages of 11-14 for girls.
It didn't say it ENDED.
It BEGINS or OCCURS between those ages; and from that age forward girls continue to develop until around 17-20 when they are usually physically mature.



The subject under discussion was child predators. That's the context in which you made your statement. Above the age of puberty does not exempt teen-aged minors from being preyed on by these molesters.

Correction-
YOU, DEL, AND MEL are focused on child predators.
That's not MY focus, nor was it the original subject of the thread.
The original subject was Malik Shabazz's debate with Evie Rich and MY focus was my defense (and continual defense I don't give a damn what YOU THREE say about him ) of the HONORABLE Elijah Muhammad.




Troy

 

You obviously missed my statement that I do not think ANYONE should get married before 21 today.


Although I think 18 or 19 is a good age to start having sex, for something as serious as MARRIAGE I'd push the age even higher than 21!

I don't see why anyone who lives in THIS society where males and females have so much access to eachother would limit themselves and tie themselves down in their 20s.
It makes no sense because you pretty much know that over 70% of the marriages are going to end in divorce (or murder) by the time they are 30 because they no longer love eachother and have found someone else.


Dr. Frances Cress Welsing who was a noted AfroAmerican psychologist actually said she didn't think AfroAmericans should get married and have children UNTIL they were in their 30s!


As far as what you and Mel are discussing.........

She seems to be confusing LEGALITY with MORALITY.
In otherwords, because the MODERN LEGISLATION comes up with some arbitrary age for sexual activity or adulthood.....that makes it right or wrong in her book.

The LAW decides what's "right" or "wrong" for her.

The problem with this type of thinking is if we use that standard...going back 200 years ago teaching a Black person how to read would be WRONG and she'd be arguing just as hard against it simply because the LAW says it is wrong.


This is why I keep saying AfroAmericans need our own moral and ethical code that we can all agree on and RARELY CHANGES in order to provide stability and avoid arguments like this.

In most other cultures....whether we agreee with it or not...atleast both the men and women are on the same page and agree when it's time for marriage and there is very little arguing and accusations among them.

 

 

 

 


Chev

 

But I think that as a woman, especially due to being in a position where a man is 'sweet talking' and trying to take it to that next levely, we woman see from another point-of-view'.

I think it may be, as the saying goes, 'men are from mars and women are from venus'.

As a woman, I know that a lot of girls are tricked into going to the next level and have been railroaded, but men perhaps here these stories and still think and believe the man's view in that the girl consented.


Come on now Chev.
Are we supposed to believe that women DO NOT like sex or want it?

In most of my experiences and observations if a woman LET'S a man "sweet talk" her into having sex, it's because she wanted him in the first place and ALLOWED him into her heart.

Perhaps what you're calling a woman being tricked is REALLY a woman lowering her defenses for a man she actually finds attractive enough to sleep with.


 

I know too, that many Black women have been hurt and abandoned. And, I believe for this reason, many of them have turned to other ways to gain that acknowledgement that they so deserve. This government has done so much damage to us. They have encouraged our gender conflicts because it gives them power over us


Exactly!
And that's the point I've been trying to make over and over again.

 

 

 

 

 

Mel
 

where’s the lie?

Most girls are "ABOVE" puberty by 12...in many cases 10-years-old. It is only force if an adult man is having sex with a girl who is "ABOVE" puberty.
 

Well THAT'S one of them right there....lol.

Most girls are NOT above puberty at 12 and definately not at 10.
Not HUMAN girls....maybe cats, horses, or zebras.....but not human females.

Infact, in most places around the world girls don't even START puberty until aroun 13.


But the FIRST lie you told was:
"You know, like the 10, 11,12, 13 year old girls who’ve reached puberty and still play with toys, enjoy learning and playing sports , that Pioneer seems to think are fair game. "

Again, can you find any quotes of me claiming that girls at this age are "fair game" or available for ANY sort of sexual contact??????
I don't recall ever making a statement like that or even coming close.

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21 hours ago, Mel Hopkins said:

I know when sex is ILLEGAL -something that seems to escape you...

 

Legal?  What is legal is purely arbitrary.  I was not legal for Black people to read in this country not very long ago.  

 

21 hours ago, Mel Hopkins said:

Oddly, you say you know how long 14 year old girls have been having  sex and giving birth ... which is why it appears you are making a value judgment - since you conveniently left out of this equation adult men forcing themselves on children. 

 

The statement of a fact is not making a "value judgement" If I say it is raining outside that is an observation.  If I say it is a shitty day, because it is raining that is a value judgement -- people can disagree about vales, but not facts. 

 

21 hours ago, Mel Hopkins said:

Now, if I missed you condeming that behavior; your values are on full display.  

 

Honestly @Mel Hopkins, in this instance, it is your values that are on display. Again I have not expressed any values.  Indeed, I refuse to do so.  Now if you perceive my unwillingness to make a value judgement on behavior, that I don't fully understand and want to construe that as me being complicit in that behavior, that is up to you.

 

Surely you can appreciate that your belief of my values are probably less accurate than what I know about my own values. In fact, I would have thought my actual behavior would be a testament to those values. 

 

So no, I'm not going to condemn MLK or believe is legacy diminished because @Delano says he had an homosexual affair. Nor I'm not going to condemn the entire NOI because everyone is saying Elijah Muhammad raped a bunch of teenage girls 50 years ago.

 

Why I actually have to say rape is a bad thing  is beyond me....

 

18 hours ago, Delano said:

And make you appear to lacking in empathy. 

 

I'm glad you wrote "appear." The statement otherwise, on its face, is in accurate and borderline offense from someone who knows me.

 

1 hour ago, Pioneer1 said:

Although I think 18 or 19 is a good age to start having sex, for something as serious as MARRIAGE I'd push the age even higher than that, lol.

 

I agree. I stated 21 as a minimum, but I would say 30 is a good age to consider getting married today and it is what I would tell my daughters.

 

As far as sex, I think 18 is probably a bit young, but if you can die for your country in a war then for heaven's sake you should be allowed to have sex and buy a drink in bar.  In some municipalities you can neither get married (without parent consent) or order a beer in a restaurant if you are under 21 -- but you can do a tour of duty in IRAQ and get you head blow off at 18 -- go figure.

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