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Why Those with Moral Convictions Can Reject Science and Facts


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I listen to podcasts far more often than watch TV or read books.   The Hidden Brain podcast is one I listen to regularly.

 

This program (embedded below) made me think our discussion forum and why people believe what they believe despite strong evidence to the counter.  More importantly, the program provides a compelling (at least to me) theory on why expert knowledge and facts that conflict with one's opinion doesn't lead to a change in one's opinion.

 

I've seen it countless time here and it is fascinating, for it is not intuitive to someone like me.  For example if someone, like @daniellegfny, presents me with data that reveals Covid-19 is the 3rd leading cause of death in this country and in the next sentence write that there really is nothing to worry about and the government is over reacting.  The only thing I can conclude is the person is stupid, ignorant, or lying. But there is a more nuanced answer.

 

The person truly believes they are right, because of some moral conviction.  In other words, there is something morally at stake here that overrides reality.  In the case of many Covid deniers the thing being protected is personal liberty.

 

We can not allow the government to make us wear masks, force us to get vaccinated, prevent us from buying guns to protect families. This obvious, right?  Anyone who does not agree is clearly less moral than we are.  Indeed, we are protecting their rights just as much as we are protecting our own.

 

One some level I already understood this phenomenon.  For example, I rarely waste my time debated religious people about their moral convictions.  It is a complete waste of time, because their beliefs are not based on anything other than faith.  @Gibran mentioned recently, in effect, that we need to leave the worshipping of that blond haired blue eyed Jesus behind. There are those of us who reject the notion that Jesus had to be Black -- some of us are even Black! History does not matter; it is a moral conviction, so everything is simply wrong. 

 

People will engage in "mental gymnastics" in order to hold up moral beliefs that fly in the face of reality.  This is the incubator of conspiracy theories. People with strong moral convictions are primed to believe in them and social media has enabled conspiracy theories to be targeted, with laser-like precision, to those most susceptible to them them (one of many reason I don't consume information from social media).

 

This has hurt our nation for today facts truly do not matter!  President Trump can say anything and great numbers of people will believe him.  These people are not all stupid, or evil, or racist.  Obviously some are, but they are a relatively small percentage

 

We have to have to teach our population to think critically.  

 

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Don't discount the power of suspicion..............

Come on Troy, you know this government and the media has a well known and well documented history of LYING to the public about things both great and small.
A healthy suspicion is warranted.

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Who you telling? @Pioneer1 I know the American government spent a large portion of its existence engaging in genocide, the enslavement of Black people, and countless other horrors domestically and abroad.

 

Suspicion is warranted -- needed when these devils are concerned, but why argue with climatologists about the causes of climate change or whether or not the planet is flat?  Shoot you don't even have to go into outer space to know that the planet is not flat a clever person can not only determine the the earth must be round but they could come up with a clever way of calculating a goo approximation on the earth circumference,

 

Since people argue these facts .. though I'd be hard pressed to come up with a moral excuse to defend the position of flat-earthers.

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Well, I can tell you that Climate Change is more of a Caucasian argument than that of AfroAmericans.

 

The ecology and climate change ARE important issues, but most Black people around the planet are so focused on SURVIVING and getting their basic needs met they don't have time or money to travel to the North Pole to measure how much ice has melted.
 

White folks can afford to argue this because they have too much money and free time.


Like that angry white girl from from Sweden.....Greta....who stood up at the UN crying and shaking over the environment.

 

 

Infact, I got into an argument with a White woman and a bunch of other people who tried to come to her rescue over some damn DUCKS a couple nights ago during a local townhall meeting about politics and what to ask Kamala Harris when she comes back this week.
 

It was during the question and answer period and she wanted to take up 30 or 40 minutes "demanding" that we address her concerns about Canadian ducks drinking water from polluted lakes in Michigan.


Who cares about Covid 19
Who cares about police brutality.
Who cares about jobs.
Who cares about the Black children in Flint and what kind of water they're drinking
....let's talk about some ducks in a lake and what kind of water THEY'RE drinking!


Man we all got into it and we almost ended up going to the parking lot!

 

Here's a middle aged Caucasian woman with plenty of money, plenty of time on her hands, a nice  big home, and probably no husband (not there atleast...unless he was hiding from all the action), with nothing better to do than devote her life to squeezing into tight jeans and driving to events to raise hell about some ducks in a lake!

image.jpeg.1d8e3e60a877a8fcba0e5729b8c41823.jpeg
 

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Oh my! Those helpless ducks! Someone has to fight for them! My heart goes out to that brave women willing to stand up to the likes of @Pioneer1 and advocate for those poor creatures. 

 

Again, protecting defenseless animals is the right thing to do -- all other priorities like the poor, the clmate  e damped.

 

 

 

 

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21 hours ago, Troy said:

This has hurt our nation for today facts truly do not matter!  President Trump can say anything and great numbers of people will believe him.  These people are not all stupid, or evil, or racist.  Obviously some are, but they are a relatively small percentage

You are misguided and your argument is flawed. Your sources and interpretation are being rejected not facts or science. Trump did have the first US space launch with American Astronauts on US soil by moral convictions solely. 
 

Proper moral conviction leads to the best application of science. I am sorry you have not had the experience to open you up to the possibility that your sources are wrong. 

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@daniellegfny, look I understand you are a strong trump supporter, but I'm not going to go back and forth with you about whether he what he says is factual or not.   You chose to believe him and that your prerogative.  I know it is hard to continue to support him and hold in you head the fact that a lot of what his provably false.

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4 minutes ago, Troy said:

I know it is hard to continue to support him and hold in you head the fact that a lot of what his provably false.

No your assumption are incorrect.

We just got a third seat on the Supreme Court 

We are energy Independant 

I am thoroughly satisfied with his performance. 

I would be disappointed with a lot of the Republicans who is a drop out or flipped out I am very satisfied that Trump has remain stable fighter and he’s enthusiastic about America

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On 10/28/2020 at 6:46 AM, Troy said:

For example, I rarely waste my time debated religious people about their moral convictions.  It is a complete waste of time, because their beliefs are not based on anything other than faith

All beliefs are based on faith. And opinions are never wrong they, but they can be misinformed.

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You are playing loose with the definition of words and context my friend.

 

Faith for religious people is based upon relgious doctrine as opposed to proof. Proof the world is billions of years old rather than 6K years old is of no consequence. When one's belief is based solely upon faith.

 

Opinions can certainly be wrong particularly when misinformed. If you believe the world is 6K years old you are wrong.

 

 

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10 hours ago, Troy said:

Opinions can certainly be wrong particularly when misinformed.

I try to keep an open mind and consider that the other person could be correct and i could be mistaken. You are clearly wrong on at least one point. I will attempt to show you one instance. If you choose you can generalise from the particular to the general. Then you will be able to apply this globally. This is an instance of using both deductive and inductive logic.

Here is an opinion. Chocolate Ice Cream is better than vanilla.

Two things to note. Firstly an opinion is not a fact although it may be a factual statement. Secondly this doesn't apply if you aren't interested or concerned about making logical statements.

Bonus point knowing etymology also helps.

10 hours ago, Troy said:

You are playing loose with the definition of words and context my friend.

You believe you are making a factual statement and not expressing your personal opinion. Hence you are wrong. 

Do you realise that all of science could be a fiction? Just answer no so I can educate you. Or become incensed and or dismissive because you have more experience with mathematics and engineering than I do .Or be open to  possibility having a different perspective on life science and knowledge. The other option is dismiss my statement as absurb.

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10 hours ago, Troy said:

ed. If you believe the world is 6K years old you are wrong.

I don’t know anyone who believes the world is 6000 years old. There’s nothing in the Bible which says so.

At the very least it’s 6000 years and a day 🌍😂🤣


A guy is visiting a museum and he sees a dinosaur's skeleton.

Curious about it, he asks the guard next to it:

\- Excuse me, sir. How old is this dinosaur?

\- It is 65 million years, 4 months and 13 days old.

Amazed by his answer, he says:

\- Wow!, How can you be so precise about it?

\- Well, when I first started working here, they told me it was 65 million years old... and that was 4 months and 13 days ago.

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Del

Here is an opinion. Chocolate Ice Cream is better than vanilla.

 

It's also a FACTUAL statement.

 

 


Daniel


I don’t know anyone who believes the world is 6000 years old. There’s nothing in the Bible which says so.

 

Well I do!

I believe the EARTH is billions of years old, but the "world" is only around 6,000 years old.
This "world" is the Caucasian's (Adamic) world....and he is only about 6,000 years old.
 

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Troy


The person truly believes they are right, because of some moral conviction.  In other words, there is something morally at stake here that overrides reality.  In the case of many Covid deniers the thing being protected is personal liberty.

 

We can not allow the government to make us wear masks, force us to get vaccinated, prevent us from buying guns to protect families. This obvious, right?  Anyone who does not agree is clearly less moral than we are.  Indeed, we are protecting their rights just as much as we are protecting our own.

 

One some level I already understood this phenomenon.  For example, I rarely waste my time debated religious people about their moral convictions. 

 

Don't confuse BRAINWASHING with moral convictions.

 

Most of the people who follow Trump and those who were aggressively right-wing even before he came in office aren't "moral" people.  They are brainwashed extremists.

Most of these gun toting warmongering racists you see ranting and raving over wearing masks don't even believe in God let alone "morals".  
They are racist hypocrites.

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16 hours ago, Delano said:

Here is an opinion. Chocolate Ice Cream is better than vanilla

 

Again context is everything. What is the opinion based upon taste, number if calories, health benefits, what?

 

16 hours ago, Delano said:

Do you realise that all of science could be a fiction?

 

Does science encompass all of reality? Is reality a fiction to you? In any event, I don't understand your well enough to answer it.

 

16 hours ago, daniellegfny said:

I don’t know anyone who believes the world is 6000 years old.

 

So then it can't possibly be true huh? I dated a woman who believed this. You can read about people who believe this. 

 

16 hours ago, daniellegfny said:

It is 65 million years, 4 months and 13 days old

 

Mr. Strawman no one with a brain would age anything that old with that level of precision. Your baseless arguement is not worth the energy to refute.

 

16 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:

Don't confuse BRAINWASHING with moral convictions.

 

The convictions are moral to the ones holding them. People have different moral values. Those who hold differing moral values see each other as wrong.

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Troy


The convictions are moral to the ones holding them. People have different moral values. Those who hold differing moral values see each other as wrong.

 

You know what, I stand corrected!

White Supremacy is a RELIGION so yes, their racist political principles ARE moral convictions because racism is their morals.
 

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opinion- 

NOUN

  • 1A view or judgement formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge.

    ‘that, in my opinion, is right’
    More example sentences
    Synonyms
    1. 1.1mass noun The beliefs or views of a group or majority of people.
       
      ‘the changing climate of opinion’
      More example sentences
    2. 1.2An estimation of the quality or worth of someone or something.
       

    3. fact-

      NOUN

      1A thing that is known or proved to be true.
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