JakeFromNY

No, most people born in the modern era don't hate black people just because they're black people. Some yes, born in white supremacist families, but vast majority don't. But some definitely will build up stereotyping and prejudice based on personal experience, like getting robbed, stolen, their business looted, starting fights, getting jumped, some of these I personally experienced as well. Just saying it goes both ways.

https://nypost.com/2023/09/27/philadelphia-looters-strike-apple-lululemon-stores-unrelated-to-eddie-irizarry-protests/ First hand witnessing these types of behavior does not help. These are not just anecdotal, my local mall had a couple shootings in the past couple years linked to black gang or "beef". They are likely going to go out of business because they were already struggling and now have an image as a dangerous place. I went to a carnival with my family in August this year, a large group of black youth almost started a group fight and over 30 policemen were called on the scene to stop them as about 10 on the scene already wasn't enough. The carnival almost shut down. Some of these youths literally ran past my children, could've knocked them down if they were closer. I'm sure you have experienced unwarranted racism as well but it is not like all racism came out of thin air.

Here you go frankster. You don't have to response to this. I don't want to debate anymore which was not my intention to begin with and it is especially tiring having exchanges with you with all these when did I say this? When did I said that? No, please don't. Thank you. 60% does seem inflated and I even said already "I can agree that these statistics are not perfect and can get skewed based on certain factors". But even that FBI report shows arrests for around 52% of all murders and robbery and 31-33% for aggravated assault and other assault. This report from Office of Justice Programs (a part of DOJ) indicate similar rates as the FBI. Could these numbers be skewed a bit? Yes. Do I believe the numbers are still disproportionately high towards the blacks? Yes. Please let's not debate further, I'm just answering your question about the numbers I believe in. Although he certainly came here to bash, not everything said by him and others that believe in the high rate were not without merit. I said demonized because strong words were said about the white people like in the quotes I provided before and after I joined the discussion as well as some hostility towards me starting to build up. I think I overstayed my welcome. Points made by you, Jeffr, frankster well taken, don't need to try to convince me further. I won't either.

Labeling an entire group of people to be "killers, thieves, having evil intent, enslavers" is a serious and dangerous rhetoric, on par with claiming another race to be superior to everyone else. Are there bad people in every race? Definitely, but you need to be clear that you are referring to a relatively small group of bad people otherwise you are just expressing hate and the majority of people that are not hateful (all races) will not take you seriously.

Not sure if this was directed at me or others but if so, here is my "proof" as my defense. Please don't feel offended by the quotes, I'm just defending myself. Demonize definition: to portray (someone or something) as evil or as worthy of contempt or blame. Below are some of the quotes from other posters within this thread. I'll try to be fair as well, some came here not to discuss but bash but some also came with legit points IMO. Emotions often took over from both sides but you have to take responsibility of the statements you make, especially blanket statements about entire group. Also, if you make a negative statement about another group based on personal opinion or hate, I would consider that demonizing, once again the definition "portray (someone or something) as evil or as worthy of contempt or blame". Please don't say "oh you are claiming blacks commit more violent crimes than other groups and that is also demonizing!" as that is backed up by statistics and the whole point of this discussion and not my opinion. "White people: *Maim, rape, kill, torture, deceive every nation they land in and then settle quietly in colonies* " "White people: *Steal land, air, water, food, gold, etc* *hoards everything for themselves* " "That's because you Neanderthals are to blame!" "Neanderthals writing Egyptian script! HILARIOUS!!!" "Of Course you don't.....your conscience will reveal your lying hypocrisy. " "Propaganda to malign Blacks so as to assuage the conscience of those of evil intent..." "Another step in the dehumanization of Black peoples.... " "...Racist whites who refuse to recognize that they are socialize to make judgements based on color..." "...a leech that can't be trusted and will suck your blood if given the chance." "...there has been a guy who decided to kill his whole family...I can only imagine what happens in the trailer parks," Ok, if you claim the statistics/news/articles/books and whatever outlet that claim these numbers to be fake (blacks committing more violent crimes than other groups), you also cannot tell me to look at other statistics/news/articles/books that favorably support your view. If you are willing to meet in the middle, that is a different story but if you still say oh blacks don't commit more violent crimes than other groups, then I guess there is nothing further to discuss. What else can I say if I keep hearing my sources are true and other sources are fake? Upstate NY. Not from NYC like most would've guessed. All in all, after reading more of the posts made by the original poster in other threads, I agree the original poster's intent was not to discuss but to bash. Therefore I'll stop commenting on this thread further. Although we had some slightly heated moments, which is understandable when discussing topics related to race, I think there were some benefits as well where we were able to give different views on the issue and arguments and counter arguments of the causes. It was a bit of bummer that we could not discuss more ideas about the solution but I can understand the sentiment when a non black comes in here and also want to discuss about the solution. To be honest, my main purpose for commenting here was not to discuss about the solution together, I was more curious about the black views of the issue and their proposal of the solution if there was any. Admittedly, I too was caught up a bit defending my race when I perceived most of the blame went to my race. Anyway, I do hope whoever that run into this thread leave a bit more informed.

I do want to let you know the purpose of me coming to this forum was not to try to win an argument or insult the black community. I was genuinely curious about the views and proposed solutions from the black community, especially more mature and intelligent members.

Although I question white people committing more crimes overall per capita which does not seem to be the case based on the statistics I saw, I can agree that these statistics are not perfect and can get skewed based on certain factors. I can definitely agree on lowering overall crime will benefit everyone but at the same time worried about stricter laws (if we go with this route) creating more grief and more inequality/racial issues (perceived or not). Seems to be vicious circle sometimes. As for "McDonald's is making an extra 50 cents to a dollar", no I didn't say the extra 50 cents will cause inflation issues. You said livable wages, extra 50 cents especially in urban areas is not livable wage as you can probably agree. Paying unskilled workers livable wage, such 25-35 dollars an hours will cause inflation I think and arguably deter certain people to become more skilled.

No I'm not coming up with these things off the top of my head. Human behavior and anthropology is my personal interest. And attributing higher rate of absent father due to things like incarceration rate, getting killed due gang activity or other crime, health problems due to life choices, largely cannot feel sympathy for. But of course getting rid of the causes would be helpful and ties back to swaying young black men from making bad choices.

I believe you but this is just one example, just like how you pointed out that one black engineer that did not work out. Once again the point is not about what black people can and cannot accomplish, I have seen plenty of talented and hard working black people. My point was and still is how to sway young black men from committing disproportionately high numbers of violent crimes. I can present links to the FBI statistics, other statistics, relatively recent news articles and so forth but will that do any good when you will just say black crimes are reported/investigated/prosecuted more? I just didn't want to waste time on that front.

Didn't like them and they offended you but didn't read them? Anyway "I presented a bunch such inspecting the success of other discriminated groups, helping to get young black people desirable skills, encouraging them to have kids when they are more financially secure, ensuring they have an active father in their lives, and more but all of that just offended you more and back to how it is white people's fault. I never said the system and white people are perfect, but is that the only excuse? The black community is not strong enough to improve on its own unless influenced by other communities? That was the whole point of inspecting the success of other discriminated groups who still managed to be successful." in response to "Essentially what you're doing is gaslighting and you had no intentions on coming up with any kind of solutions for our community as well as yours which by the way could use some attention as well. So with that I hope you don't comment anymore that would be great and I hope you going fine solutions for your own community and then come back and tell us how you figured it out and how it's going and what we can do to fix ours. Until then... Good Day Sir!!!"

Did you miss the part about having hired other black engineers? Did you assume just 1? No, just 1 did not work out but others did work out and as mentioned, highly respected and paid. And read the next post about the solutions I posted. But you did not like them and they offended you. But denying FBI statistic are facts?

I presented a bunch such inspecting the success of other discriminated groups, helping to get young black people desirable skills, encouraging them to have kids when they are more financially secure, ensuring they have an active father in their lives, and more but all of that just offended you more and back to how it is white people's fault. I never said the system and white people are perfect, but is that the only excuse? The black community is not strong enough to improve on its own unless influenced by other communities? That was the whole point of inspecting the success of other discriminated groups who still managed to be successful.

You and others just demonize and ridicule anyone that try to come here have a real discussion. Calling white people family killing demons who make black people shoot other people is not presenting facts and eloquence.

You talk like you know all about me. I'm a software engineer manager at a software firm. I have hired and worked with a few black engineers. And yes there are relatively few black engineers but my company and I hire based on merit and not skin color. A few them are very highly respected and paid based on their merit! On the other hand, we had a black engineer who did not perform well, skipped work often but we gave him every chance to improve, for over two years. It ended up not working out and our company lost over 300k which included salary and benefits. We are short on quality engineers, we are willing to hire black engineers and compensate them well in a heart beat if they qualify! I have a friend who is a professor in Stony Brook and another a post doctoral in Yale and they tell me how much the board lowers the acceptance standard for black students especially black female students and how much more strict it is for white and Asian students, especially the Asian students. I didn't even want to mention this part since this is discrimination in itself. Not getting paid fairly? These companies are out to make money and making money is their number 1 goal. And making money means hiring talented people. If more black people have the desirable skills you couldn't stop these companies from wanting to hire them and pay them well. You cannot just demand higher payment without the necessary skills otherwise we will continue to run into the inflation crisis we are actually in now. Third hand stories about Asian friends? No it is not like I'm reading off a news article. I know them personally and are very close and have seen the aftermath first hand. You talk like every race especially the white race hate the blacks and are out to oppress them and undermine them but in my personal life and professional life, I have very rarely seen them and practically zero in my professional life. If anything, I have seen people going out of they way to be acceptable (some in part in fear of getting labeled racist). Do people people that discriminate openly and secretly exist? Of course, just like black people that openly and secretly hate other races. And who said white crime rates are zero? Who was gaslighting? Mentioning other groups who are/were also discriminated but are now very successful and wondering about their method of success is gaslighting? It seems like you only want to hear what you want to hear and if anything else, you are quick to be offended. No matter what mental gymnastics you try to use, the fact remains young black men commit more violent crimes by wide margin and that was the focus of this topic. And if you just label this as fake statistics, no further discussions can be done with you.

We are going in circles here. Can't continue the conversation. You started off as acknowledging the problem, then quickly became full on blame game. We are talking about young black men committing the most violent crimes backed up by FBI statistics and all you did was blame the white men and other minorities, totally ignoring the reason for their success, giving them zero credit. And we are at a point where you are labeling white people as family killing demons that are forcing black men to use their guns to kill people, really? If anyone else want to discuss about a practical solution that does not involve telling me it is everyone else's fault, please let me know,

Once again, not important to the main focus here but this a distorted view. Everyone copies everyone. Who invented jeans, sneakers? modern suit? Baseball cap? Are you copying whites for using this computer who invented computers? Or using an iPhone? Gucci bags? Starting to sound ridiculous right? And black people with respectable achievements and abilities are celebrated and loved around the world. Like you mentioned, Neil deGrasse Tyson, Obama, Martin Luther King Jr., Thomas Sowell, athletes like Michael Jordan, Lebron, Kobe, Tiger Woods, singers like Michael Jackson, Mariah Carey, Stevie Wonders, and so on and so on. For content of their character and not color. I'm trying to show a mutual respect and empathy here but you are sounding more bitter and bitter as we exchange. A lot of non blacks are really trying to get along, find a solution and even getting called woke, PC, left, or whatever else.

If more black men were like you, I don't think we would be having this conversation, and reputation of the black community on par with any other "model minority" (although I don't even like the term). I do believe more people judge based on the content of the character rather than color but at the same time, stereotyping exists for a reason. It is rough road but one must be willing the tread it if they expect things to get better. Once again, not a blame but a rebuttal. I mentioned I have a lot of Asian friends since the grade school years. Many of their parents owned stores in the predominantly black neighborhoods. Some got along with the black customers well, even became friends. Other parents got robbed, things stolen, held to a gun point, called racial slurs, physically attacked, pretty much every horrible thing one human can to do another. You cannot expect the latter to have good impressions and love the black community unconditionally, it goes both ways.

Those acts are from many decades ago. Once again blame game aside, what can blacks do to get out of this, in particular for the young black men arguably committing disproportionately high number of violent crimes? Are the current working age black adults willing to work 14-16 hours a day to save enough to buy a business or a house outright if they can't get a loan? Or at least enough to move to a better neighborhood and get off welfare and provide more to the children even if means working to your bones like other ethnic groups have done? Or are you saying their is no hope and need to resign to the fate unless the government/institutions are willing to give out loans without any background check (this is not a viable solution whether you or I like it or not)? So far you have shown me many potential causes which I already mostly know and can sympathize with but near zero potential solutions. No disrespect and although important in the big picture, the focus was not history lessons in every discussion, more about finding solutions.

What do you think is the cause for these others groups being able to get loans while blacks can not? Could it be the reputation built up over many years? In another word "credit"? Or blacks getting discriminated purely for being black and no other reasons? It seems the Jews and Chinese received pretty harsh discrimination as well. Antisemitism in general, systematic exclusion of the Jews in the white-collar profession which forced them to seek professions in areas the whites cared less about at the time such as textile/garment industry, film industry (eventually Hollywood), banking because for centuries, Jews were excluded from professional guilds and denied the right to own land, forcing them to work as merchants and financiers (more historic than limited to the states). One can argue Jews were the most discriminated people in history (don't think I need to give examples here). As for the Chinese, The Naturalization Act of 1870, which extended citizenship rights to African Americans but barred Chinese from naturalization on the grounds that they and other Asians could not be assimilated into American society. The Chinese Exclusion Act of 1882, the first law to racially exclude persons and leave them intentionally unprotected by law. Japanese Internment Camps of WW2 (not Chinese but Asians). Asiatic Barred Zone Act of 1917 which aimed to raise taxes on adult immigrants and discourage Asian immigrants further. Rest are more anecdotal but I have many Asian friends since the grade school years and I saw their parents come to the states near penniless, worked literally every day 14-16 hours a day, saved enough to start their own business and succeed. Another parents, similar background, worked under a white business owner for many years, built a trust with the white owner therefore the white owner sold the business to them for monthly payment for the next 10 years. They eventually paid off the loan, the business became theirs, very successful but still working very hard. Above are just giving some examples, and I'm sure someone can dissect my above examples and argue how blacks were discriminated more and some of it could even have strong basis, but at the same time, others can say this is all subjective and then we go back to the blame game. The end result however it seems is these two groups are in much better place socioeconomically and I don't think it came from the society all of sudden liking these groups more. Once again, I'm not trying to get into the blame game, more of a counter argument. Would you agree people tend to perform better if there is nothing to blame or choose not to blame and just focus on improving? Is there anything we can learn from these two groups? Let's say blacks did/are getting discriminated more and there is nothing we can do about that part, what do you think needs to be done then?

The statistics on welfare seems debatable, some saying blacks receive more per capita while others saying numbers are skewed to make it look like black are receiving more than they are. This could be a big topic on it's own but this aside, what about encouraging young black women and men to have kids later in life? When they are more financially secure? Wouldn't this help to rely less on welfare? This sort of links back to my earlier post about encouraging young people to get skills that are desirable in society.

Thank you. I agree that racism is a complex issue and not a fault of a single group (group as in not just different races but leaders, politicians, the wealthy, the poor, etc) but focusing on the violent crimes in the U.S. by young black men, what are some of the solutions the intelligent black people are proposing? I understand other races commit crimes too but for the sake of focus, I would like to stay on topic of young black men. I know this has been said before, but having an active father in their lives, better role models, higher education, I think would get them there. How can we help to push them towards this direction? Should the prominent black leaders, celebrities, and athletes preach these more? I do think prominent figures in the black community would have stronger influence. FYI, I'm a conservative who shares a lot of views of Thomas Sowell. He said something along the line of if you have the skills that are desirable in society, such as economical skills (running a successful business for example) or technical skills (engineers, scientists, doctors) and if there are enough in the group with these skills, eventually, the group cannot be held back even if others try to. The examples he gave are the Jews and the Chinese in the US and Chinese minority in Malaysia. Another group I can think of are Indian minorities in African countries.

I'm a believer of the nurture side in nature vs nurture. But how can things improve if we don't admit there is a problem? Seems like the majority (not all) of the black community believes there is nothing wrong with the black community and all the problems are caused by outside forces. Even in this thread you have people believing the FBI crime statistics are fake yet using the FBI statistics to prove other points. 4 pages of mostly denial and finger pointing. Going back to the original point. So is the consensus (at least in this thread) is the black people, especially the young black men don't commit more violent crimes? The statistics are fake? Cities like Detroit, Baltimore, Chicago are not that dangerous? All those news are skewed? Nothing more to discuss or try improve?