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Gotcha. Being civilized means giving up total freedom in exchange for liberties. I still like the water & ice analogy because of the latitude between freedom & liberty within civilization. Otherwise, a human can live away from civilization & be totally free to do whatever they desire.😎

Humans cannot be totally free like animals because humans are far more destructive. As a result of our ability to get out of hand, humans impose limitations on themselves in order to function as a civilization.😎

For somebody who poo-poos abstract thinking, in seeking to differentiate between "freedom" and "liberty", Pioneer has stumbled into abstract territory and landed in a place that is replete with semantic overtones. "Freedom" and "liberty" are intangible concepts that have to be condensed into words in order to facilitate a definition. My approach to this subject is a broad metaphoric one, and involves comparing freedom and liberty to ice and water, suggesting that they are 2 conditions that are different versions of the same thing. One tends to be passive, the other active; freedom being subjective, and liberty being objective. Inasmuch as water can become frozen and ice can thaw, the axiom about "the same fire that melts wax, makes steel hard" comes to mind... Just depends on the circumstances. During the Civil Rights struggle, a favorite rallying cry to those in the trenches fighting for equal rights was to remind that "freedom ain't free". And whose more entitled to make the statement than those who fought for it?