Frederick Douglass : Our Composite Nation - take a read

[richardmurray]

Frederick Douglass : Our Composite Nation - take a read 
Is the United States of America today, closer to the composite nation Frederick Douglass advocated and planned for? Douglass never said the USA would be a country of justice or equality but would be on the path. 

 

[ProfD]

21 hours ago, richardmurray said:

Is the United States of America today, closer to the composite nation Frederick Douglass advocated and planned for?

IMO, as a melting pot, the USA warts & all is the composite nation Frederick Douglass envisioned.

[richardmurray]

@ProfD

16 hours ago, ProfD said:

IMO, as a melting pot, the USA warts & all is the composite nation Frederick Douglass envisioned.

 

I concur 100% I will only add he envisioned plus worked very hard for.  I call frederick douglass a black integrationist but to be more honest, he was a zealous integrationist. 

You said warts and all, but that is part of what makes Frederick Douglass in my opinion, the most important black integrationist, over W.E.B. Dubois when younger who was alive with Douglass but most blacks cite as more important even though Dubois was financed by white jews  and douglass was not [douglass was financed by white abolitionists, whites who wanted to end black enslavement to whites but not white jews who wanted to use blacks for various fiscal or government reasons, which is why W.E.B> dubois when older was a staunch rematriate/back to africa ], MLK jr , douglas's spiritual son who has a federal holiday, or barack obama , douglass spiritual grandson who became the first, and currently only, black president. 

W.E.B. Dubois when younger+ MLK jr + Obama for me have one great failing in prose compared to Douglass , they don't honestly submit in their prose the ugliness of integration. Whereas Frederick Douglass in his composite nation speech essentially, admits integration in the future will be terrible or better f-ed up. He was alive, like WE.B. Dubois,  to see Jim Crow grow early in tremendous black bloodshed, but in composite nation he predicted Jim Crow would be a long thing, which it was 1865 to 1980 but he also admitted the far flung future will be bad, ala the post jim crow , 1980 to today. 

Whereas W.E.B. dubois when younger and MLK jr. and Obama or many, i argue most absent a count,  black integrationist mention opportunities and capabilities, Douglass  admitted the future will not be full of opportunity but only challenges. The black blame for black condition many black integrationist speak of Douglass doesn't go into. 

So I concur to you 100%. And largely because Douglass saw the white warts as much larger or more powerful or more entrapping than his consophies/ those who think alike or with him, during his lifetime or after.  

The neverending multicolored spaghetti in a pot, [the usa really isn't a melting pot, the integrationist goal is the melting pot, the condition from 1492 to today is a neverending flow of multicolored spaghetti in a pot to small ] is desired by Douglass not because it will be great for black people, but because it will be great for human individuals. That is also another key element in Douglass's prose that I find absent in W.E.B. DUbois when younger and MLK jr. and Barrack Obama. Douglass was booed by black people speaking the composite nation speech because he didn't lie about integrations reality. Black communal betterment against the non black isn't served by integration. Black segregationist [ Booker t washington or exodusters]  Black Nationalist [ Jean Jacques Dessalines or Nkrumah] Black rematriast [ Marcus Garvey ] strategies are all better suited for black communal betterment over black integration. Douglass didn't suggest the lie that W.E.B. Dubois when young, MLK jr, Obama suggest . The lie being integration is better for the black community, it isn't. IT is better for black individuals. But, Douglass's point was that far down the road, if all individuals can be in that positive composite environment, then the human community will be better. It is a delicate philosophical position. It isn't that Douglass is anti black, as much as Douglass sees all sub populaces in humanity needing to be harmed/lessened/weakened to get to where the USA can be good for any human being. I think he foresaw that one day, whites will have to face a big lose, white jews will have to face a big lose, men will have to face a big lose, because those populaces communal strength has to give way to a human communal strength. 

I don't favor implementing Douglass's philosophy, but I argue, while he is pro statian, very pro statin, he applies an honesty to the integration in the usa , that I don't really see in well known black people, but even among the fiscally common black integrationists. 

 

 

[ProfD]

2 hours ago, richardmurray said:

Douglass  admitted the future will not be full of opportunity but only challenges.

 I believe Douglass would be pleasantly surprised by the opportunities Black folks have been able to take advantage of despite the challenges under the system of racism white supremacy.

 

 

2 hours ago, richardmurray said:

The neverending multicolored spaghetti in a pot, [the usa really isn't a melting pot, the integrationist goal is the melting pot, the condition from 1492 to today is a neverending flow of multicolored spaghetti in a pot to small ]

Fair enough.

 

2 hours ago, richardmurray said:

...desired by Douglass not because it will be great for black people, but because it will be great for human individuals.

 

But, Douglass's point was that far down the road, if all individuals can be in that positive composite environment, then the human community will be better.

Douglass was looking at humanity in its entirety. He definitely wasn't wearing rose-colored glasses in his assessment of men.

 

 

2 hours ago, richardmurray said:

I don't favor implementing Douglass's philosophy, but I argue, while he is pro statian, very pro statin, he applies an honesty to the integration in the usa , that I don't really see in well known black people, but even among the fiscally common black integrationists. 

Douglass' philosophy & oratory has been used by many after him to varying degrees.

 

In the absence of a revolution to overthrow it, the biggest challenge especially for Black statesmen remains navigating the waters of racism white supremacy.

[richardmurray]

@ProfD 

3 hours ago, ProfD said:

 I believe Douglass would be pleasantly surprised by the opportunities Black folks have been able to take advantage of despite the challenges under the system of racism white supremacy.

 

i am certain he would be happy, he was happy at black individual financial success during his life. But would he be surprised at black financial individual success today? I don't think so at all. Again, the usa has always had circa 1492 to 2026 financially successful black individuals, meaning blacs who own businesses in a white dominated community, ala integration or why the usa has always been integrated. But in the colonial period the usa was born from or the usa itself, neither ever had a black populace that controlled or governed itself. Now in defense, Douglass and black integrationists goal isn't a black populace that is a community or governs itself, black integrationist goal by default is to have black individuals have opportunity in an integrated environment, which is what has been going on since 1865 in the usa. 

So I argue, douglass wouldn't be surprised cause nothing has elementally changed. Between 1865 and today no difference exist in terms of presence. Black elected officials, black business owners, white enemies of black people existed in 1865 and exist now in the united states of america. Now you can argue percentages, but Frederick Douglass whole point is that was inevitable. 

4 hours ago, ProfD said:

In the absence of a revolution to overthrow it, the biggest challenge especially for Black statesmen remains navigating the waters of racism white supremacy.

The subtlety that douglass had in comprehending the  integration he supported so few black integrationist after him  seem to comprehend. 

What you call a system of white supremacy douglass called the USA.  From douglass own language the challenge isn't dealing with white supremacy but dealing with whites. In that way, Douglass/ MLK jr/ Obama are like minded. I think W.E.B. Dubois when younger saw a system of white supremacy as you do, and when he was older , it showed how dysfunctional an black integrationist who then speaks of living in a system of white supremacy is. 

if you are black and embrace the usa today, then you are an integrationist.

I argue positive/engaged Black segregation for the majority of black people in the usa or just the majority of descended of enslaved, which is what the exodusters+ booker t washington wanted... is close to impossible today in the usa. The financial situation of the black populace/ the heritage in the usa in 2026 /the bureaucracy of the usa government/ the internal demographics [especially geographic displacement]of the black populace in the usa today, make positive black segregation like said folks wanted... very^INF  challenging. In very small groups you see examples of positive black segregation in the usa today, but none of that can be applied to the larger populace. 

Black nationalism is more challenging than Black segregation in the usa, for the majority, but black people/individuals or very small groups have always left the usa and made small examples outside the usa. 

Black rematriation/ black to africa is more challenging than black nationalism in the usa for the majority. But, black people/individuals or very small groups have always left the usa to africa and succeeded. 

So I said that to say, the majority black populace in the usa today is integrationist, and outside some radical event in the future, it will remain on that path, set by Douglass. 

But, what is black integration in the usa ? Black integration in the usa is black people living positively aside the non black. So Douglass correctly asserted the challenge for black integrationist  isn't navigating white supremacy, cause black integrationists have to oppose black supremacy, which is what douglass did,  the challenge for the black integrationist is navigating white people under the legal system of the usa, with all of its dysfunctions or white warts built over time, that will require and can be changed legally... in time.