Tanny

Well, it's the same in white culture. My college roommate worked his ass off and got in to Harvard Med School. I fiddled around, took 8 years to get an education degree, and then became a house painter. I think what you're describing is the human condition, not a black issue specifically. But anyway, I do agree with the sentiment you are expressing about self responsibility. I don't see that as being incompatible with anything I've suggested. Should everyone try to better their situation? Yes. Should white society make some effort to repay some of the trillions of dollars of labor stolen from black people since the founding of the country? Yes again. Yes to both, that's my vote.

Hi Troy, I'm 66 going on 16. Not sure how that matches up with you guys.

Actually, I feel you are just too pessimistic. A great many white people would be generally sympathetic to the kind of proposals I've been sharing. This is especially true if they personally weren't the ones being taxed to make it happen. But then, I have to bow to the reality that these options have been available for a long time and never pursued. So you have a point too.

This would be true if we were talking level playing field. But that's never existed in America. Blacks have been systemically denied the resources necessary to educate themselves with their own institutions, in the way you seem to be implying. My suggestion has been to go to white people and ask them to return at least some of the money that's been stolen from blacks. Again, 20% of Americans own 90% of America's wealth. We still live in a plantation system, it's just become far more sophisticated than the old days.

I agree with all this. I'm just pointing to how many whites are going to think about the subject of reparations. They are going to think of it like a law suit where they have to settle and pay the claimant, but then the matter is settled. In the real world, any significant reparations would be a negotiation where both parties bring something to the table. Remember, the whites who would pay for reparations were not themselves slave owners or in most cases Jim Crow evil doers. Reparations are essentially a request that somebody pay for a crime they typically had nothing to do with. I'm only saying that any serious plan for reparations in some form will have to take these real world realities in to account in some manner. In the sixties it worked through a kind of good cop - bad cop situation. Malcolm X types expressed black anger, while Martin Luther King types extended the olive branch. Black anger today over police shootings and so on is entirely appropriate, but somebody is going to have to play the peace maker role too if reparations were ever to become a reality. I framed my proposal in the context of education because that's something most whites can support. An education voucher tends to shift the focus of reparations from "pay for your crimes!" to "let's educate the nation". In the first case whites are painted as villains, in the later they can see themselves playing the role of hero. My argument here is tactical, not moral.

I don't see how smart has anything to do with it. In America there have always been more whites than blacks. And that numerical advantage was used to create an economic system designed to steal black labor and Indian land. In both cases it wasn't because whites were smarter, it was because they had more people and more guns. If you took ANY population and denied them education and opportunity for centuries, then sure, there will be some in that population who essentially give up. That's not a black thing, that's a human thing. As example, there are plenty of poor whites who have given up and made peace with living on welfare in the trailer park.

Well, I'm white, so I'm going to leave discussion of complacency and stupidity in the Black community to others. I'm speaking to the stupidity of all of us in the 80%, white and black. It's not limited to poor people, or uneducated people. As example, on another site I'm talking with a philosophy professor with a PhD with a good job at a university. He's most likely in the 80% too. I also participate on a site for a professional academic philosophers organization, most of whom are white. They too seem content to compete over that last 10% of the economy, which is remarkable when you consider that they are paid to be masters of logic. Perhaps the word "stupidity" is too harsh. But what else should we call it when the majority of us allow a minority to hog almost the entire economy? You ask what the solution to all this is. If I had to guess, I'd say probably another financial crisis, one worse than the last one. I've been stupid on all this most of my life, it was the 2008 financial crisis that woke me up.

Pioneer, you make good points. In light of them I wish to edit my comments to read that Republicans will be poring fuel on the existing divisions between Blacks and Hispanics. I do think a shift is coming though. A great many Americans of all races don't yet realize that America is heading rapidly towards minority majority. And so thinking from the past still prevails. But at some point it's going to dawn on average black and brown folks that they can own this country if they work together. I predict the urge to dethrone whites will be strong enough to overcome the differences between blacks and browns. Until the over throw is complete, and then the differences may re-emerge. This may not be a peaceful process. There are a minority of whites who will resist with enthusiasm, including violence. They will be afraid that blacks and browns will do to them what whites have long done to blacks and browns. The idea that America is a white country is deeply rooted in white culture. Whatever happens the future is not going to be like the past. Whites will not continue to dominate while gradually extending rights and benefits to minorities, that model is coming to an end.

Here's an explanation for poverty in all of the races. - 1% of Americans own 40% of America's wealth. - 20% of Americans own 90% of America's wealth. 90%!! - 80% of Americans, you, me, and most everybody we've met, are competing for the last 10%. SOURCE: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/12/06/the-richest-1-percent-now-owns-more-of-the-countrys-wealth-than-at-any-time-in-the-past-50-years/?utm_term=.a2a20e2a9c80 That's all there is to it. There's plenty of money available in America. And a small number of people are hogging it. It's amazing how complacent we are about 20% of Americans owning 90% of America's wealth. You have to wonder how high that percentage would have to go before we took it seriously. 95%? 98%? 99.9%? The problem is not that rich people are evil, for most of them made their money in an entirely legal manner. The problem is that we the 80% are stupid. We have 80% of the votes. We have the power to do whatever we want. But we can't get our shit together, and spend most of our time arguing with each other over that last 10% of the economy. We are 21st century feudal serfs, by choice.

Here's the thing though. The Republicans are on their way, they just don't know it yet. I don't mean the mid-term elections, but the larger picture, the emergence of a minority majority nation. Trump is actually one of our allies as he goes out of his way to insult every minority he can find. Republicans will soon start trying to divide blacks from Hispanics because that will be the only way they can continue to rule. Watch out for that one. You read it here first. :-)

I cast my vote with Troy's comment.

Sorry, that was a good point. I hadn't thought of that, and I agree it would be an issue. But, any plan which is bold enough to be effective is going to have problems and not be agreeable to everybody. So we can't just toss out every plan with a problem unless we are willing to be happy with the status quo. Ok, thanks. What services do you propose to provide, how much will it cost roughly, and who pays? Rigging the system in favor of themselves. That's just what I'm proposing. In this case, blacks, with allies, rigging the system in favor of themselves, for a defined period. Remember, we are heading rapidly towards a minority majority nation where whites will no longer dominate as they have in the past. Again, this is just what I'm suggesting. If Black people want something, they should take it. They deserve it, and have the power to get it done. Agreed, ignorance is not a black problem. The economic system being rigged against blacks for hundreds of years is a black problem, and a white problem too, a problem of our entire society. Agree with this too. Again, see the stats in my first post. 20% of Americans own 90% of the wealth, and we the 80% are fighting with each other over that last 10%. If blacks prefer, we could forget about the historic crime committed against them which affects their situation to this day, and focus instead on shifting the wealth more generally from the 20% to the 80%. If blacks can make peace with that, I can too. This is surely true. But by this reasoning we shouldn't be giving new education funds to anybody, right? What I suggest more generally is, shifting the focus from problems to solutions. If we think we can, or think we can't, either way we're probably right.

Hi Troy, Do you mean free education for blacks, or free education for everybody? I like the Bernie Sanders free college for everybody paid for by the rich plan. I could vote for that no problem. But that doesn't really address the wealth gap between blacks and whites. Nor does it address all those for whom college is not the appropriate solution. It seems to me the economic game was rigged against blacks for hundreds of years, so if we want to talk about fairness and equality, it has to be rigged in blacks favor for awhile. Not forever, just until the wealth gap is erased. How to do that though? I see you guys are concerned about the quality of education currently available. It seems to me that problem is solved by giving blacks 60 billion dollars worth of vouchers, which they can then spend at whatever schools they feel are appropriate for them.

Great discussion guys, thanks for keeping the ball rolling. Ok, let's talk reparations for a bit then. A few questions... 1) What's the price tag on that? 2) Who pays? 3) How about American Indians? 4) If reparations were paid to your satisfaction, are blacks willing to then drop complaints against whites? I ask this because this is usually how such settlements work. The person being sued pays up on condition that that's the end of the dispute. I focused on the education angle because I think it's more sellable than reparations, and it creates allies in the education establishment. If blacks and educators were all on board, the Democratic Party probably will be too. That said, I'm for any plan which can actually be implemented, and which erases the wealth gap between blacks and whites.

Hi guys, Troy, good points. Yes, more money to serve more folks would be ideal, agreed. The $100,000 number is just a place to start a conversation. But we have to keep in mind that somebody is going to have to talk Congress in to hitting their rich buddies with a big tax, and so whatever the right number is there's a limit to what is doable. I also agree that colleges would likely boost rates. But let's look at it positively. The fact that the education establishment would benefit financially makes the powerful allies. If the plan included K-12 we'd have articulate allies in every little town all across America, teachers. Kalexander, thanks for responding. Let's be a bit more optimistic? What choice is there? Bernie Sanders made free college a big part of his campaign and he did really well. It's inevitable that the political pendulum will swing back to the left, and it looks like that starts this fall. I think what's needed is a big, bold, specific well thought out plan which can win lots of allies. I surely don't claim the plan I've outlined is the one true way perfect plan. It's just a vehicle for getting conversations started on this subject. I agree with the reparations idea generally, but feel tying it to education makes it much easier to sell. Also, please note the plan above has a specific target goal, erasing the wealth gap between blacks and whites in a _sustainable_ way. Thanks again for the replies. If you have friends who might be interested in this, hope you will invite them in. Whoops, I somehow bolded a paragraph above and can't undo it. Duh...