@frankster With all of our discussion about Freedom and Restrictions.....let us not confuse Freedom with Liberty.

Although they're closely related, they are actually two separate concepts....lol

Brotha @Pioneer1 beat me to the punch in starting a separate thread about freedom.

Adding liberty to the mix ends the circular nature of the discussion in the Captain Traore thread.😁

Liberty is the freedom people have in civilized societies.😎

7 hours ago, ProfD said:

Adding liberty to the mix ends the circular nature of the discussion in the Captain Traore thread.😁

Or opens up a new theater.....lol.

16 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

@frankster With all of our discussion about Freedom and Restrictions.....let us not confuse Freedom with Liberty.

Although they're closely related, they are actually two separate concepts....lol

True....

The following is my definition of them....

Freedom is a Natural Inheritance or State...

Liberty is a form of Political Freedom granted by Societies to its members....

10 hours ago, ProfD said:

Brotha @Pioneer1 beat me to the punch in starting a separate thread about freedom.

cool

10 hours ago, ProfD said:

Adding liberty to the mix ends the circular nature of the discussion in the Captain Traore thread.😁

You mean someone being intellectually dishonest....by being ambiguous and switching up - that is not going to end

10 hours ago, ProfD said:

Liberty is the freedom people have in civilized societies.😎

true

frankster

31 minutes ago, frankster said:

Liberty is a form of Political Freedom granted by Societies to its members....

Interesting definition.

My definition of Liberty is the state of having few restrictions.
The fewer the restrictions....the more the Liberty.

So while I don't believe in "degrees of freedom", by that definition there can indeed be DEGREES OF LIBERTY.

34 minutes ago, frankster said:

You mean someone being intellectually dishonest....by being ambiguous and switching up - that is not going to end

Perhaps it is the detailed expression of ideas and their proper articulation rather than making broad sweeping generalizations and holding extreme beliefs.....that you are CONFUSING with "ambiguity" "switching up" and "dishonesty".

A fool will look at a Mayor, a Governor, and a President each occupying positions in Executive Office, and say:



"Ok, so which one is in charge?

I thought the President held the executive office, but now they're saying the Mayor holds the executive office.

And the other day on television somebody said they were running for the executive office of Governor!

Somebody is lying to us.
Somebody is being dishonest.
They are trying to switch it up and confuse us.
Everybody can't hold the same office!"


It's not that people are lying or being dishonest; it's that he doesn't have the intellect to understand the complexities of the U.S. political system....lol.

Instead of trying to engage in intelligent discussions above his grade, his ass needs to be slinging a rag at a carwash somewhere....lol.


My point?

The confusion that one may call "dishonesty" or "switching up" only ends when you are intelligent and analytical enough in thought to understand the ideas being presented to you.
At that point...it no longer confuses you or seems like deception and dishonesty because it makes sense to you now. 🌤️

......if you ever reach that point, lol.

Liberty is more formal. It's about Rights. But I don't think we should overstate the difference between Liberty and Freedom. Individuals want Rights - Liberties because they don't want to be constrained. Freedom is about the lack of constraints. And yet their are boundaries, limits, and order. These things prevent harm to self and others. They keep us from imposing on each other in pursuit of the freedoms that Liberties guarantee.

I think a deeper discussion might be about the kinds of Liberties and thus Freedoms a political and social order requires. Is noninterference from the government and other people the only thing that matters? What about the ability to choose to act on your thoughts, desires, and prerogatives as an individual. How do societies and the State undermine this pursuit? How are individuals legally and extra legally deprived of choice?

Keep in mind I'm using my own personal understandings and definitions of "freedom" and "liberty" because they are more absolute and less confusing than what you may find online or in some dictionary which may offer you 12 or 15 different definitions.

They are known as "compensatory definitions" meaning they make up for what's lacking or confusing.

For somebody who poo-poos abstract thinking, in seeking to differentiate between "freedom" and "liberty", Pioneer has stumbled into abstract territory and landed in a place that is replete with semantic overtones.

"Freedom" and "liberty" are intangible concepts that have to be condensed into words in order to facilitate a definition.

My approach to this subject is a broad metaphoric one, and involves comparing freedom and liberty to ice and water, suggesting that they are 2 conditions that are different versions of the same thing. One tends to be passive, the other active; freedom being subjective, and liberty being objective.

Inasmuch as water can become frozen and ice can thaw, the axiom about "the same fire that melts wax, makes steel hard" comes to mind... Just depends on the circumstances.

During the Civil Rights struggle, a favorite rallying cry to those in the trenches fighting for equal rights was to remind that "freedom ain't free".

And whose more entitled to make the statement than those who fought for it?

@aka Contrarian ..I dig your take on freedom & liberty. The water & ice analogy was perfect.😎

10 hours ago, ProfD said:

The water & ice analogy was perfect.😎

....not really.
It wasn't too bad but I wouldn't call it "perfect".

It suggests that freedom is just a different FORM of liberty, which I would agree with.

However unlike freedom which tolerates NO limitations outside of those which are found in nature, a person can be liberated WITH limits and restrictions.

For example..........

Wild birds are free.
Most Americans are liberated.

The key factor in the difference being B/being imposed restrictions.

10 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:

However unlike freedom which tolerates NO limitations outside of those which are found in nature, a person can be liberated WITH limits and restrictions.

Humans cannot be totally free like animals because humans are far more destructive.

As a result of our ability to get out of hand, humans impose limitations on themselves in order to function as a civilization.😎

6 minutes ago, ProfD said:

Humans cannot be totally free like animals because humans are far more destructive.

As a result of our ability to get out of hand, humans impose limitations on themselves in order to function as a civilization.😎

I agree with you.
Anybody who lives inside of a civilization is not free.

I'm just explaining the difference between freedom and liberty and while being liberated doesn't mean you're free.

17 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:

Anybody who lives inside of a civilization is not free.

I'm just explaining the difference between freedom and liberty and while being liberated doesn't mean you're free.

Gotcha.

Being civilized means giving up total freedom in exchange for liberties.

I still like the water & ice analogy because of the latitude between freedom & liberty within civilization.

Otherwise, a human can live away from civilization & be totally free to do whatever they desire.😎

11 minutes ago, ProfD said:

Gotcha.

Being civilized means giving up total freedom in exchange for liberties.

I still like the water & ice analogy because of the latitude between freedom & liberty within civilization.

Otherwise, a human can live away from civilization & be totally free to do whatever they desire.😎

BINGO


I think you're giving Cynique too much credit.....lol.

YOUR quote of being civilized means giving up freedom in exchange for liberties is an EXCELLENT one and hits the nail directly on the head and sums up the difference.