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Troy

Pioneer, Is This a Black or White Person

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@Pioneer1, I could not help but think about you as I looked at this photo.  Which of your racial buckets would you put this lady?

 

danzysenna.jpg

 

She wrote a book that the New York Times called one of the 100 Most Notable Books of 2017.  I'm in the process of making sure that all of the called "Black" writers who earned this recognition have that fact reflected on the website.

 

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Until Pioneer responds, as someone who wrestles with the idea of race being an artificial construct, i would guess that this woman is a mixed breed. That's permed hair.  Hair is always the giveaway.  

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There is no guessing, she's obviously CAUCASIAN.

Now because you asked me the question, I'm almost certain you know more about her ancestral background than I do.
And I'm also guessing that your asking me because you know she probably has a Black parent or some Black ancestor.

But remember, RACE is just as much how a person LOOKS (phenotypical) as it is about a person's ANCESTRY (genes).

So despite what her parents may be or who is in her family.....SHE is a Caucasian woman.

I know 2 or 3 Italian women who look just like she does....with darker skin.

  • Confused 1

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Actually @Cynique, @Pioneer1's response was completely understandable and consistent with what he's previously expressed.  Now I gave y'all a clue that the author might be Black (I have many non-Black authors on the site) because I wrote I was adding all the Black authors of the 100 NY Times Notable books to the website.  Here is author, Danzy Senna's, background:

 

“Senna herself is mixed race. Her father is half African-American and half Mexican, while her mother is Irish and English. Growing up in Boston, Senna was raised to self-identify as black.” 

—from NPR Interview about Senna's collection of stories, You Are Free.

 

I'm treating her as Black by including her on the list; Pioneer says she is white; and Cynique says she is "mixed," claiming hair is the giveaway.

 

Race is in the eye of the beholder.  The terms are "mixed-race" or "biracial" are in the eye of the beholder too. Again, since there is only one race of humans alive today, these racial terms make no logical sense and are at best inconsistent.  But we live in America and we do a lot of things that make no sense.  

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@TroyI said the woman was mixed "breed" and your breakdown of her ethnic make-up, verifies this.  And i regard both Pioneer's statement that he knows Italian women who look like this woman  except that they have darker skin and your agreement that race is in the eye of the beholder, ambiguous to the point of being meaningless. 

 

 

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Cynique

That's really an ambiguous response.


I started my post saying that the woman was OBVIOUSLY CAUCASIAN.

What's "ambiguous" about that?

 

 

 


Troy
 

Actually @Cynique, @Pioneer1's response was completely understandable and consistent with what he's previously expressed.


Thank you!

Agree or disagree with me, atleast I'm consistent.....lol.


I don't see her as Black at all despite her claiming to be 1/4 "African American".

Does it make sense to consider a person the same race as just ONE of their grand parents?
Infact, we know most AfroAmericans aren't pure Black anyway so for all we know even THAT GRAND PARENT may have been mixed race while being considered "Black".

But I DO consider her an AfroAmerican.....meaning an American of African descent.




 

Race is in the eye of the beholder. The terms are "mixed-race" or "biracial" are in the eye of the beholder too. Again, since there is only one race of humans alive today, these racial terms make no logical sense and are at best inconsistent.


But Troy.....look at what you JUST said in the same statement.

First you say: Race is in the eye of the beholder.

Then you say: These racial terms make no logical sense

You can't grant people the priveledge of looking at race and defining it from THEIR OWN perspective.....then turn around and call their perspectives "wrong" or "illogical".

It's like calling a person's taste in beauty or music "illogical"....lol.

So if you're giving people the right to see race however they want to see it then the fluidity of various perspectives grants everyone the priviledge to be correct in their OWN understanding.

The only thing wrong or illogical would be like if someone else TOLD YOU what your perspective was about race and it wasn't what you believed.


 

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@Pioneer1 How can she be obviously Caucasian if she isn't because she has black blood in her as suggested by her hair roots?  It's more like she is possibly Caucasian.   And what does your knowing 2 Italian women who are darker than her, have to do with it?  Does their being darker than her, make them obviously Negroid?  Using your ambiguous standards, just supports the argument that race is an artificial construct.  Human beings are all variations of one race.   

 

 

 

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Number one she's OBVIOUSLY CAUCASIAN because if she didn't TELL YOU she had "Black blood" in her....you wouldn't know it.
She looks like the typical White woman.

And racial classification is just as valid PHENOTYPICALLY as it is GENETICALLY.
Which means that if a person LOOKS White they ARE White....regardless of their genetics.

Most White people have Black and Indian ancestry.....it doesn't mean they are no longer White.


Second, I agree that race IS an artificial construct (based on natural/biological differences).

The concept is completely MAN MADE.

But just because something is MAN MADE and artificial, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

The STOCK MARKET is a man made construct also, but it's real and valid.

The concept of race was a MAN MADE concept used to classify humans on their natural differences.
I've been saying that for quite some time now.

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Well how how a person looks is subjective.  The woman was not obviously Caucasian to me because as i previously noted, her hair line looked nappy  and this suggested to me that she was mixed.

 

If something is artificial it is not authentic, so your agreeing with race being an artificial construct actually means you don't think race is a natural way of classifying people.

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Here is another one for you all. Is he “Black” or “White?”

 

Timothy-B-Tyson.jpg

 

The author is Timothy B. Tyson he wrote the critically acclaimed book, The Blood of Emmett Till, which is why he is on the website.  

 

But now I'm trying to identify all of the Black writers who have written books that the New York TImes have including on their year end list of the 100 Most Notable Books. I'm almost finished the page: https://aalbc.com/books/nyt100.php and have added the 2017 and 2016 books, but I'm having difficulty with some of the authors. 

 

According to Wikipedia, Tyson;

  • was selected as a John Hope Franklin Senior Fellow at the National Humanities Center
  • was Assistant professor of Afro-American Studies at the University of Wisconsin–Madison, and
  • is a civil right activist

 

My guess is that he is not a so called "Black" man, but given is books and life's work he should be.

 

Trying to identify the Black folks is not trivial black or white as one might think ;)

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@Pioneer1, I just read an article in the New York Times which describes the medical profession considering stopping the use of race.  The problem is people are being misdiagnosed, and mistreated because of race.  Dr. are bending over backwards to not diagnose white people with sickle cell because they think it is a Black disease.  They cite more examples.  Now this a real good reason to stop using race and relegate it to slang more appropriate for the the street corner.

 

"Science has revealed how arbitrary racial categories are. Perhaps medicine will abandon them, too."
The New York Times, December 08, 2017 - By MOISES VELASQUEZ-MANOFF - Opinion 

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Well how how a person looks is subjective. The woman was not obviously Caucasian to me because as i previously noted, her hair line looked nappy and this suggested to me that she was mixed.

Cynique I don't see ANYTHING in that woman's hair that would even remotely suggest she is of African descent.

 

 


 

If something is artificial it is not authentic, so your agreeing with race being an artificial construct actually means you don't think race is a natural way of classifying people.


The BEHAVIOR OF CLASSIFICATION is natural.
The PHYSICAL FEATURES in which those classifications are based on is natural.
But The TERMS USED TO CLASSIFY are not.

So I agree that terms like "Black" "Asian" "Mongoloid" and "White" are artificial man made terms.
Even the word "race" is an artificial man made term.
Words and language ITSELF are artificial man made terms.....lol.

But the skin color, hair texture, and facial features that those classifications are based upon are NOT artificial....they are natural.

 

 

 

Troy

I don't particularly love using the term "White" because it's too narrow of a term.

I prefer the term Caucasian because it encompasses the larger scope of the actual race of people labled as such.

The man in the picture is a Caucasian.
Again, regardless of his background or ancestry.....HE is a Caucasian.


 

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Well I would agree Caucasian is a better term than white, because it speaks to geography.  Well I do not know the answer for the gentleman and I've removed his book from the list, but he is perfectly appropriate for the site given his work.

 

Truth be told, I can't look at Danzy's hair and see that it is permed.  She looks like your garden variety Caucasian woman to me.  But I'm a guy and defer to our elder from the great state of Illinois.  Danzy's book is on the list because she recognizes her Blackness.

 

The "race" thing sure is a messy business...

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@Pioneer1   

17 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

THE BEHAVIOR OF CLASSIFICATION is natural.
The PHYSICAL FEATURES in which those classifications are based on is natural.
But The TERMS USED TO CLASSIFY are not

??? How does classification behave? And how can you use unnatural terms to classify natural behavior? You seem to be using the word "unnatural" in lieu of the word "technical".   And the operative word here is "you" because you have set up your own  technology in establishing your observed claims that differ from scientific studies. You also seem to be equating "behavior" with "culture". All of which brings to mind the word i originally used to describe your argument: ambiguous.

 

Nobody is "obviously" Caucasian to me because i have reached the point where when asked to identify the "race" of a person, i am comfortable with saying "i don't know". Women do have a keen eye when it comes to sizing up other women.  To my eye, the roots of the hair-line of the pictured woman are not straight and her stiff looking hair is either permed or she has on a hair "fall" that is draped over where the part in her hair ends.  Even the texture of her eyebrows is curly.  i've encountered many people who look like her, - some in my own family. All of which why i had my doubts about her "purity".  A certain segment of the new crop of tall, fair skinned NBA players all look "white" except for their grade of hair which they inherited from their black fathers who married white women. (If Pioneer can advance his personal theories from his observations about race, then i so can i.)   

 

The question of race will never be resolved on this board. The different views here are too entrenched.

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Troy

If this were a woman with dark brown skin, or a the same complexion with a chubby nose and lips....then MAYBE I would consider that she could have permed her hair to get it that straight.
Atleast those other features would hint at her having some Black ancestry.

But GENERALLY SPEAKING.........

When you see a woman with skin that light.
With eyes that green/hazel.
With a nose that thin.
With lips that thin.
With hair that long and stringing from the roots to the very ends.

......are you SERIOUSLY going to entertain the idea that she might be perming her hair to help pass even more??????

She looks like the average garden variety White girls.
To consider her Black is a monumental reach.....lol.

 

If a woman who looks like this is considered Black........
Then what's to stop a bunch of White people with dark hair or dark eyes from taking over televisions shows, businesses, and executive positions and declaring that THEY now represent a "Black presence" in those positions?


 




Cynique
 

 

How does classification behave?

Classification IS a behavior.
It's a thought process of how to group people.


And how can you use unnatural terms to classify natural behavior?

Because ALL words are "unnatural".
They are made up by human beings as part of a language system.



You also seem to be equating "behavior" with "culture".

 

No, but behavior is PART of culture.

 

 

 

 

Nobody is "obviously" Caucasian to me because i have reached the point where when asked to identify the "race" of a person, i am comfortable with saying "i don't know".


That's because you're probably applying the traditional American understanding of "race"....which is generally flawed and incorporates the erroneous "one drop" theory.
I used to apply the same definition until I recognized how flawed it was.


My definition of race doesn't follow one's genetic lines.
It goes by PHENOTYPE......or simply the way one looks.


In other words.......

I could care less what your ancestral background is or even what color your parents are.
If you LOOK Caucasian to me....you ARE Caucasian.
If you LOOK East Asian....you ARE East Asian.

And if you LOOK mixed-race.....as far as I'm concerned you ARE mixed raced.

Which means a Black man and White woman can have children and if one child comes out looking White and the other one comes out looking like the father.
Despite them being siblings of the same parents I would consider them of separate races.


This may seem overly simplistic.....but it cuts down on confusion.

 

 

 

The question of race will never be resolved on this board. The different views here are too entrenched.


Did you really EXPECT for major problems centuries old to be solved on a message board....lol.

This is a place to exchange ideas which I believe will go a long way TOWARDS eventually solving these problems.

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Pioneer and i will never come to any agreement on any issue because the gist of the subjects gets lost in the process of rationales rather than refutations.  I don't think we have ever changed each other's opinions about anything.  Our brains are wired differently.  This whole opinionated discussion has become muddled with so many contradictions and inconsistencies that it's a waste of time to pursue it further.  

 

 

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Troy
 

my sister, Danzy is Black, whether you like it or not


How would you feel if all of the "Black women" on television, in magazines, and in movies looked like Danzy?

Would you have any issues with this?



Cynique

 

Pioneer and i will never come to any agreement on any issue because the gist of the subjects gets lost in the process of rationales rather than refutations. I don't think we have ever changed each other's opinions about anything. Our brains are wired differently. This whole opinionated discussion has become muddled with so many contradictions and inconsistencies that it's a waste of time to pursue it further.


If that's your way of admitting you can't follow the logic and are now forced to bow out of the conversation.....lol....I understand.

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@Pioneer1 why would I have a problem with TV, Movies, and Magazines being filled with nothing but beautiful Black people?  I knew colorism could be bad in the Black community, but I thought that died out long ago. Why treat our sister like a red-headed step child? 

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4 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

If that's your way of admitting you can't follow the logic and are now forced to bow out of the conversation.....lol....I understand.

Logic according to your skewed way of thinking.  You exist in your own little world where you have delusions of being omniscient, operating under the  principle that if you say it, that makes it so. You never venture out of your comfort zone because your one-track mind would get lost.  :o

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Troy
 

I knew colorism could be bad in the Black community, but I thought that died out long ago.


Colorism is alive and well in the Black community.

Colorism is the main reason so many Black people are eager to call White and almost White people "Black".

This mentality made it easy for Rachel Dolezal to frizzle her hair up, come in and fool a bunch of silly Negroes who were so happy that a "light skinned sister" wanted to hang out with them that they didn't bother to even investigate the woman's background...lol.


White people have strict rules for themselves and have high standard for who is classified as White.
Even White JEWS....many of whom have blonde and red hair and blue eyes....are still not considered White or "pure" in many White circles.
Hitler killed millions of other White Europeans because in his opinion they weren't "White enough".

Why?

Because most White people tend to put a value in "Whiteness".

And like anything of value...you usually try to protect it and preserve it.

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@Pioneer1, everything you wrote in your last post illustrates my point about the absurdity of race.

 

I understand you can't see that, but I have nothing to add that would make the case stronger.

  • Haha 1

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