BREAKING the DEADLOCK: A Power Play 05/22/2025

BREAKING the DEADLOCK: A Power Play
https://www.pbs.org/video/breaking-the-deadlock-a-power-play-14yofj/

VIDEO

TRANSCRIPT

If you don't rein in executive power when it's your guy in office, then we're just on this never-ending cycle. Right now, we have a system that's electing performance artists in the highest levels of government. TIM RYAN: We need leaders with guts. "Can" does not mean "should." I've been in the Oval Office before with a resignation letter in my pocket. It's not easy. Don't you have a responsibility to hold up your institution? Just do proximate justice. Just try to get in the ballpark. The oath that I took put my allegiance to the Constitution of the United States, not to any one particular elected president. I am salivating at the subpoena power. (laughter) Consider your political position before you step out here and cause a problem for yourself or the president. ALLYSON K. DUNCAN: Criticism is legitimate. Threats are not. I've had death threats. Power is so intoxicating. JON TESTER: You've got to start talking to one another and you've got to develop trust. And you use the Constitution as the foundation for moving forward. ♪ ♪ ANNOUNCER: This program is made possible in part by viewers like you. Thank you. Location furnished by The New York Historical. ANNOUNCER: Introducing "Breaking the Deadlock" is Katie Couric. In September 1787, at the end of the Constitutional Convention, Benjamin Franklin was confronted with a question. "Well, Dr. Franklin," he was asked, "do we have a monarchy or a republic?" Franklin responded, "We have a republic-- if we can keep it." Franklin and the other founders understood that this experiment in democracy wouldn't be easy. Their instruction manual for us-- that's the U.S. Constitution-- laid out the duties and powers of each branch of government. But they understood that whether or not it would work would depend on our ability to find and respect common civic norms and values. So, where are we today? What do we agree on? And what values can we share? In this program, we challenge a group of panelists to wrestle with the same basic questions about power-- power to determine how we live, work, and think, and whether the people would rule or those in power would rule us. Now we go to Professor Aaron Tang and our hypothetical scenario: A Power Play. AARON TANG: Welcome. This is a story about power. We begin in the state of Middlevania, during the first-term presidency of a person that many of you voted for. Paul Powerton. Now Powerton is getting to work, and he's wielding presidential power in some bold ways to do it. It's gonna lead to some hard questions, starting with one for you, Jon Tester. For generations, your family has owned a farm here in Middlevania. But now that farm is about to go under, all because President Powerton canceled a major federal grant program, and it's left you, Jon Tester, and thousands of other small business owners deep in the hole. How does it feel knowing that you might lose the family farm? Well, it feels pretty bad. My grandfather came out to the farm and homesteaded that place, uh, when there was nothing but grass there. It's part of my person. It's part of what I've done my entire life. Uh, and, uh, to lose that, is losing a part of yourself. And if the farm goes under, are you the only one, you and your wife, who'll be affected? TESTER: Yeah, probably not. TANG: Your community? The fact is that rural America will be affected. If I'm, if I'm going under, it's probably a lot of others going under, too. And then the community gets smaller, Main Street gets smaller, the schools get smaller, and rural America continues to dry up. So it's bad all the way around. TANG: Option number one, you could take out a second mortgage on your home, go further into debt and maybe things will get better. If they do, you might save the farm. But if they don't, you'd lose it all-- the farm, your house, your savings. Option number two, you could sell the farm. I think I would try to keep the farm under all, all options. If you sell the farm, I mean, you've literally let down generations of your family, uh, and you failed them. And you failed your kids and your grandkids, too. TANG: Hard decisions like this are happening at kitchen tables around the country. But Jon, like generations of Testers before you, you steel yourself, and you forge ahead, because today is going to be a special day. It's your favorite day of the year, the annual family barbecue. Dave Brat. Dave, you are a retired United States congressman. You're also Jon's closest cousin. Practically like brothers. Here's what's going through your mind as you head over to the farm. You've got mixed feelings. You know this could be the last barbecue at the farm. And you know it's all because President Powerton canceled that major grant program. And by the way, the name of the grant-making agency that President Powerton has canceled is the Green Business Bureau, GBB. It provides grants for clean energy, environmental projects for small businesses. For Jon's farm, it was solar panels. So, here's the question. When you see Cousin Jon, are you gonna tell him what you believe, which is that the president was right to cancel the Green Business Bureau even if it destroys the farm? BRAT: I'm very sorry to hear about the, the grant and the impact that's gonna have on your farm. But we have $37 trillion in debt. We've fired five million manufacturing folks. So we feel bad for a lot of people in the country right now. And, uh, how do you look at this? I thought that grant would do, uh, some things to help do my part in, in the climate change fight. The bottom line is, though, is that, uh, in the end, uh, we lose the farm. And that... I don't think that's a good thing for me, uh, my family or the community. And I don't think it's a good thing for society either. You're talking in the front yard when you hear another truck pull up, and you turn and you look and you both smile because it's your favorite niece, Sarah Isgur. Your uncles call you over. "Sarah, Sarah, we're having a debate." You, you know about the farm. You know it might be lost. What would you say to your Uncle Jon? I'd say, I think you're making all the right decisions. You know, you took the grants because you thought it would provide a little extra income even though you kinda knew you didn't want to. It didn't pan out. I think the delay would've been nice. It's not what happened. Uh... I certainly would want to look at some legal options for how that grant got canceled. I'm curious about President Powerton's powers to unilaterally cancel that. But, uh, but I support the second mortgage. Don't give up the farm yet. TANG: All right. It's a good niece. TANG: It's a good niece. It's a good niece. As you're talking in the front lawn, a family member calls out from inside the house. "Hey! It's a breaking news story." You look up at the TV and there's a special press event about to start at the White House. So let's go to Washington, DC, now where one of you is in charge. Scott Jennings, you are President Powerton's press secretary. And he's put you in charge today with a simple goal-- "Communicate to the American people how great it is "that I am shutting down the Green Business Bureau. "Billions in dollars in grants for solar panels and windmills. "Because of me, this executive order I've issued, we're saving all of that money for the American people." So, are you excited to communicate that message today? Absolutely. Because it's what President Powerton ran on and was elected to do. And the truth is, what we've uncovered in our investigation since we've taken office, is that billions upon billions of dollars that we don't really have, that we borrow from China, have been spent on political cronies and technologies and unproven ideas. And so what we're doing is we're canceling these grants. And it's unfortunate that there are going to be some people who are going to feel some pain. TANG: You have wisely brought three prominent leaders from your party to join you today to help you spread this message to the American people. Should we meet them? - Absolutely. TANG: All right. Chris Christie. You are a United States Senator from Middlevania. You are a maverick, not afraid to tell it as it is. (chuckles) Marc Short. You are a representative in the United States House of Representatives. In fact, the Speaker of the House. You have a reputation in Powerton's party for getting things done. Roger Severino, you're at the press event, too. You are a close advisor to the president and the former head of a think tank that is very popular with the president's base. Congress, in the past, has debated bills, considered bills to eliminate the Green Business Bureau, to defund the Green Business Bureau, but Congress didn't have the votes. So now President Powerton is doing, through an executive order, what Congress couldn't do. So you're each gonna have an opportunity to get on national TV and thank President Powerton for standing up in Congress's place. Senator Christie, any qualms about standing up on that stage and thanking the President? Well, I'm a little concerned about whether the president has the authority to do that, take away, um, monies that were already appropriated by the House and the Senate. Probably are going to want to talk to the president about whether or not there might be another way to get done what he wants to get done. So, um, as most of my colleagues in the Senate often do, I'll wait and see. Okay. (laughter) JENNINGS: Senator, consider your political position and consider what the American people asked us to do last November, uh, before you step out here and cause a problem for yourself or the president. Don't be on the wrong side of history. Save the republic's fiscal situation. CHRISTIE: Well, while I often take advice on history from press secretaries, um... (laughter) ...I, I, I would, I would, with, with all due respect to, to Mr. Jennings, say that, you know, the oath that I took as a United States senator um, put my allegiance to the Constitution of the United States, not to any one particular man or woman who happens to be elected president or at any other position. And, um, if they're uncomfortable with me saying that this is something that I'm gonna have to really think about, then they could just take me out of the press conference, and I'll hold my own press availability, you know, in front of the West Wing. - Well... - Wow. (laughter) Do you mind, do you mind if I call the Secret Service and have his, uh... (laughter) - Credentials. JENNINGS: ...credentials revoked for the day, or...? TANG: Senator Christie, Mr. Jennings' history lesson wasn't persuasive. His political appeal... CHRISTIE: It could be persuasive. No, no, I... as with many of my colleagues, I just haven't made up my mind yet. TANG: Yeah. And I don't think that I should go out there and just read a position of talking points that was written by the White House. I was elected by the people of Middlevania, and I took an oath to the Constitution. And those two things are my most important constituencies. TANG: Will you be willing at least to stand at the press conference but not speak? No. So you're gonna leave? CHRISTIE: Well, if that's the choice I'm given. I'd like to go and say, "I'm willing to work with the White House "along with my colleagues in the Senate to try to get to a legal and appropriate resolution." Are you okay with him saying that? Well, I'm, I'm okay with him saying that he supports the president's mission. I am not okay if he wants to stand at our press event and call into question the president's motivations or, uh, authority to do it, because we obviously have a different view on that. Don't want to have a public debate at our press event over method, if that's something that we can work out in private later. CHRISTIE: Well, I mean that's okay. I got invited to the press event; I didn't ask to be there; if they're now rescinding the invitation, based on the fact that I can't speak my mind, that's their, that's their right-- it's their White House. You could be sure, though, that I'll have a press event someplace else. So... SEVERINO: If I could jump in. Senator, the problem is that Congress has not cut this program, which requires a president to step in. When there's a vacuum of leadership, the president has the authority to say we're not gonna be spending the money on the Green Business Bureau. And I know there's people that are hurt by this, but there's another side to this equation, the American taxpayer. And the authority of the president to say, "Look, "this is what is best for the American people. "The president ran on this. "We're gonna cut the waste. "We're going to cut the cronyism "with this Green Business Bureau. "And Congress was unwilling to act. So that's why we're in the situation we're in." Those are really all good think tank points. But they, they don't, they don't take into consideration the Constitution, which they may have misplaced over there at the foundation. Um, the fact is that Congress has the power of the purse. Um, the president is not permitted to just unilaterally take away spending that has been appropriated in a budget that was signed by a president. But the foundation did not misplace the Constitution. CHRISTIE: Maybe just didn't... Maybe just didn't read it, I don't know. Well, let's see. TANG: All right. Speaker Short. Are you a thumbs up to speak at the event? While I would encourage the executive branch for what they're doing, would want to stand behind it... - Uh-oh. - Senator Christie, I think, is, is correct that the power of the purse belongs with Congress. And if the courts decide that the executive branch can unilaterally eliminate these programs, then the next time you elect a left-wing president, he can unilaterally restore these programs. TANG: Wow. Scott, some tough calls. So I think, I think I'm okay with the speaker because he obviously shares the president's vision about what the outcome needs to be. And we actually do agree, uh, that we would like to see some permanency in the restoration of fiscal sanity to the national budget. TANG: Okay. Folks, the press starts to enter the room, and one of our members of the press is Lesley Stahl. You are the senior White House correspondent for the Global News Network, GNN. As you are walking in, you get a phone call. You look down at your phone, and it's from corporate headquarters... Ooh... TANG: ...parent company of GNN. And somebody at the parent company says, "Lesley, you know we are on thin ice "with the Powerton administration. "This might be our last press conference "if we don't get this one right. "So, please, if you get a chance to ask a question, "make it a softball, "something that will make President Powerton look good "or at least okay. Will you please do that?" I, I hear what you're saying, but I have to do my job. This is what I was hired to do... TANG: Fierce. - ...ask tough questions. That's my role in society. TANG: So it's not a hard call for you, what you say. But I have to ask you this, Lesley, if this is, in fact, your last press conference in that seat, who do you think the administration will put in the seat at the next press conference? Is it a media outlet that will scrutinize the administration the same way that you and that GNN would? No. But to be honest, I don't think you have to be sitting at the White House to cover the president. And I think you're freer to cover the president in the way I think the press should handle these tough issues... TANG: Okay. STAHL: ...from outside because you can become a captive when you're inside the gate. TANG: Okay. Mr. Jennings, do you want to kick off the event? - Absolutely. TANG: Who are you gonna call? Is your hand up, Lesley? STAHL: Oh, yeah. TANG: Who are you gonna call? Is there only one journalist...? (laughter) Yes, I'm willing to call on Lesley Stahl. TANG: Lesley. STAHL: My question is about the farmers. This is a huge, important, uh, block within your constituency, um, and I know that they are not at all pleased. So please address the problems that the farms are having. JENNINGS: President Powerton loves farmers. We know that. And ultimately what we think we're gonna be able to do is give them better economic opportunities to make a living without having to have artificial income supports from the federal government. STAHL: But why aren't you leaving this up to Congress? I mean, to the speaker, this whole structure that the founders organized is crumbling. Don't you have a responsibility to hold up, as Nancy Pelosi used to say all the time, to hold up the power of your institution? Lesley, appreciate the question. Uh, Speaker Pelosi's not the model that I'm looking to follow, but, um, nonetheless, I think that it is our job in the legislative branch to, uh, fight for the power of purse. And we're the ones that allocate the resources. And it's also our jobs to pass legislation that cuts these programs. Congress has an essential role. It's the role of the purse. SEVERINO: But Congress has refused to act. The, the budget is out of control. The American people spoke loudly. And may I add, the only person who has the weight of the entirety of the American people behind him is the president. Everybody else gets elected by constituents or a state. Only the president speaks for the entirety of the American people. And the American people have said, "Enough is enough. We have to cut the spending and give it back to the Americans." TANG: Let's get some quotes from the opposition party, who hasn't had a chance to chime in yet. We have Senator Tim Ryan, United States Senator, in fact the Senate minority leader. And we have Middlevania's very own attorney general, elected attorney general, Dan Goldman. Who are you gonna call first? I c... I would call the senator first. RYAN: Good to be a senator, I guess. (laughter) STAHL: Um, I assume you saw the press conference from the White House. Um, what do you think about the, the legal issue, and what do you think about the power of Congress? I would like to challenge the Speaker of the House, the president of the Senate, to stand up for the Constitution. The founders, who were breaking free from a king, wanted the people to have the power and the authority. To acquiesce to the president, I think is, is tragic, uh, and completely undermining our democracy. TANG: Okay. Lesley, do you have a question for Attorney General Goldman? STAHL: Given the legal issues involved here, and the fact that you are the attorney general of the farm state, which will be hurt dramatically, is there anything you can do um, to get that money back for your farmers? Yes. I'll immediately be filing a lawsuit, uh, for a violation of the Impoundment Control Act. It does not allow for a president to unilaterally, uh, cancel appropriated funds. It is, uh, the law of the land. And we will protect our farmers at any cost. We have heard a very forceful case for the president's power to save this money for the American people. And we've also heard some competing arguments. Let's return to Middlevania, to the Tester family farm. Farmer Jon, I heard you have that big audience on the YouTube with the tractor repair videos, you know the ones? 300,000 subscribers, right? Will you make a video and tell your people what's really happening to us with this GBB thing? What I would say is, is, uh, I will, but there's got to be more than just me. TANG: Okay. - There's got to be more people so that it, so that it looks as broad-base of a problem as what I and you think it is. TANG: Are there any risks? Sarah, will you tell your uncle is there anything he should worry about before he posts this video on his tractor channel? Sure. I mean, anytime you're calling attention to yourself in the political arena, uh, there's huge risks within your community, within your church. You could get threats. You could have people, um, coming to protest your farm or vandalize your farm. And that can be really dangerous. TESTER: I'm willing to take the risk. But there needs to be more than just me. TANG: Okay. You get a phone call from Middlevania's attorney general, Dan Goldman. He is gonna file a lawsuit for the farmers of Middlevania, and he wants to know if you will join him. Absolutely. TANG: Attorney General Goldman, you have sued, asking a court for an order that the president cannot unilaterally shut down the Green Business Bureau and defund it without Congress. Yes. Uh, Article One makes it very clear that Congress has the power of the purse. The president can come back to Congress with any recommendation to cut the GBB, but the president cannot do it unilaterally. TANG: Okay, so you filed this lawsuit. You're asking for a court order that the Green Business Bureau be reopened. Who's the defendant in that lawsuit? It's you, Roger Severino. The president was so pleased with your performance at the press event that he fired the old GBB director, and he put you in charge. You're the new acting director. And as he gave you that job, he winked at you. And he said, "Roger, you know the assignment. "We've got to shut this thing down for the American people. "And after you do that, I've got your back. Any job you want in my administration, it's yours." But unfortunately for you, the federal judge in the district where Attorney General Goldman chose to file this lawsuit has issued an order requiring Director Severino to reopen the Green Business Bureau offices nationwide. Now, Roger, it's a moment of truth. You have a mandate from your president. You have a core value about returning money to the American people. But you have a federal court order telling you you can't do it. What are you gonna do? SEVERINO: Well, you can't have single judges dictating what a federal agency can or cannot do within the scope of the authority of the president. TANG: You need to make a decision. Are you going to comply with the district court's order and reopen the Green Business Bureau? Well, if this single district judge wants to run my department, we'll see how, how well that goes. TANG: What does that mean, Director Severino? Are you going to say, "No, I'm not complying with this order"? Is that what you're saying? Are you gonna... SEVERINO: No, no. We're, we're gonna see how much stomach this judge has for this sort of fight. Because I think the Supreme Court will back us all the way. And if this judge wants to run my department, have at it, good luck with that. TANG: Okay, folks. A week goes by after the federal judge has issued her order. Two weeks. Folks like Jon are still not getting their grant checks. And the American people don't know what to make of it. They're looking around for somebody in the room to make a decision as to what is gonna happen when we've got a dispute over power between a federal judge and the president's administration. Allyson K. Duncan, You are the chief justice of the Supreme Court of the United States. What's going through your mind? Are you worried to be watching a district judge battling with the president's administration, arguing about who's gonna follow the law, what the law is, like this? Is that concerning for you? - I worry about everything that affects the integrity of the court and the way in which it is regarded. The federal judiciary, the judiciary, is the weakest branch of government. It lacks the power of the purse, which Congress has, and the power of the sword, which the president has. TANG: Are you worried that Director Severino hasn't fully complied with this order right away? Does that worry you? It certainly worries me. If the money leaves the gate, we're not getting it back. That's the fact. The president was elected to end the wasteful spending. If we reopen it, that money's gone forever. We're not getting it back. And that's hurting the American taxpayer. TANG: Attorney General Goldman, should those checks be going out the door while the full case makes its way up? Absolutely. And while I appreciate that the president thinks that every single thing he does is valid because he won an election, unfortunately, every president wins an election. So that's not actually a grounds to stop the payment. TANG: So, Chief Justice Duncan, there is a person on this panel, in fact, who you know very well. They're a former law clerk of yours, smartest law clerk you've ever had. You trust her judgment implicitly. It's Sarah Isgur. Would you give Sarah a call and ask her to help think through this case with you, how you might approach it? Absolutely not. (laughter) She's not working for me now. She is, she is not-- we are not in confidential relationship with one another. She can clerk for me now. You can come back and clerk for me now. TANG: Would you clerk for her now, or do you want to use a different... I've already clerked for her, yes? TANG: You've already clerked for her once. Yeah. - Yeah, I'm not going back. TANG: You're not going back. - (laughter) TANG: What a lonely job, Chief Justice Duncan. Fortunately, Sarah, you have a platform of your own. You are, in fact, a prominent social commentator. You've got a podcast. And Chief Justice Duncan is a big fan of the podcast. So you can say what you think about this case and maybe she'll hear it. Who should win? Should attorney general win, and these checks go out the door, or should Director Severino? ISGUR: Yeah, I don't think this is a close call. For many of the arguments that the attorney general has made, this is simply not within the powers of the president. All the more so because Congress debated this, had bills in front of it, and rejected them. They didn't have the votes. The process is supposed to be exactly that. And if you don't have the popular political will to pass it through Congress, which is meant to be hard and annoying and long and compromising, then you don't get to do it. And just because you were elected president of the nation, I don't give two anythings about who elected you or by how much. (laughter) So Chief Justice Duncan... - Yes. TANG: ...we've heard the arguments. And you do have to cast a vote in this very hard case. DUNCAN: Okay. - What's it going to be? I, I vote that the president does not have the authority to cancel. TANG: The Supreme Court has spoken. Let's call it a five-four vote. Director Severino, what are you gonna do? You have to comply with that order. As erroneous as it may be. (chuckling) We get that half the time. Uh, it was close, unexpected, five-four. But it's one of those things where, if the court has spoken in this sense... ...we'd have to comply with it. Now, doesn't mean it's the end of the fight. We will show how extraordinarily harmful this will be to the American people. I want to come to Senator Christie for a comment. You maybe called it. You could have an "I told you so" moment. Do you go to the press and comment on this order? No. I, I go to the president. And I'm part of his party. Um, I have the president's cell phone number, and I call him. Uh, I'd go around Jennings and call him. I'd say to him, "You know, Mr. President, "I'd like to cut Tester's funding, too. "But I, I want to cut it in a way that makes sense..." TANG: Okay. ...and that doesn't get overturned by the court." I wouldn't go to the press. The press all knows I was right already. So there's no reason for me to go back and reiterate it. TANG: All right. Lesley Stahl. The American people are very confused. There's been a lot of orders, questionable compliance. The people are looking to you for clarity. What's your headline? How are you covering this? STAHL: Well, the first thing I would do is that, uh, I would call Chris Christie and encourage him to leak to me every little thing that's going on. TANG: Senator Christie would never leak anything to you. You don't know him very well. (laughter) Do you see what I'm dealing with every day? I guess the headline is that, uh, "The President Loses." "President Loses." Scott Jennings. Let me tell you something, the president didn't lose. The American people lost. But that's okay, because we think we have enough allies in Congress to ultimately get what we want, even if it's on delay. TANG: Okay. Folks, we've had a big battle. Congress passed the law appropriating money for the Green Business Bureau. The president tried to cancel it. And the Supreme Court has ruled for Congress. President Powerton, as you might expect, is not happy. His supporters are not happy. They're criticizing federal judges. Criticism is part of our tradition. That's what democracy is. Okay, so you're comfortable with criticizing federal courts. Senator Ryan, is it appropriate to criticize federal judges? RYAN: Absolutely. Absolutely. Have you criticized federal courts from time to time? RYAN: From time to time. TANG: Sounds like folks are very comfortable with criticism of judges. It's American. Right to free speech. DUNCAN: Criticism is legitimate. Threats are not. So will you make a public statement? I will, because I believe that this is important. I've had death threats. I know what it's like to have my name and face appear on a program with a death threat from someone who didn't even understand the reading. Thank you, Chief Justice. Folks, let's go back to the White House. The president can't believe that the Supreme Court has ruled against him. But he's got an idea. He's got an idea for how he's going to fight back. And so he calls you into his office, Alberto Gonzales. You are now the United States Attorney General. President Powerton calls you in and says, "Mr. Attorney General, priority number one, investigate Dan Goldman." You'll do that, right? Investigate Middlevania's attorney general, Dan Goldman. What do you say to him? "Obviously, this is a great concern to you, "Mr. President, and, and we'll look at it. "But I'm going to only move forward in an investigation "and prosecution if, in the judgment of my team, we believe that something illegal has, has occurred here." The president says, "Some of my loyal followers "have been taking pictures, photographs, "of Mr. Goldman's home. And it looks like he's gotten some fancy upgrades lately." You know, of course, that Mr. Goldman is now running for the United States Senate in Middlevania. There's an open seat, it's not Senator Christie's seat. You're good. - Thank you. (laughter) Too bad. TANG: But the other seat is open, and if he is using campaign funds to upgrade his house, that would be illegal. So you'll investigate him now, won't you? We might-- we may look at that. Yes, we may look at that, but without, without it becoming public. The president is looking at you and says, "I'll tell you what, Mr. Attorney General, "I want to make a statement to the press that the attorney general, Mr. Goldman, is under investigation." I would urge you, Mr. President, not to make that statement. We don't talk about pending investigations publicly. TANG: What is driving you to resist the president's request? It's not the law. I don't hear you saying it would be illegal or unlawful... Because we keep politics... if this is driven by politics, we absolutely are not going to engage in any kind of investigation, prosecution of our political enemies. We don't do that. TANG: Would you call it... Would you call it a norm? What? That we... TANG: That we don't investigate our political enemies. Ab... absolutely. TANG: You can tell president's not very happy with your answer. He wanted you to be on his side. GONZALES: I've been there. I've been there. TANG: Okay. Decision time. The president says, "I'm going to issue this press statement. "I've changed my mind: it's not seven days, it's 24 hours. "And I need to know if you will sign it, "as my attorney general, that we are investigating "Dan Goldman for campaign finance violations. Can I put your name on it?" First of all, I would try to talk him out of this. You've tried. He's very stubborn. (chuckling) GONZALES: Then I would tell the president, "Mr. President... "I can't sign this statement. "And if that means that you would like me to resign, then I will... then I will resign." I, I've been in the Oval Office before with a resignation letter in my pocket. It's not easy. TANG: It's not easy. But you have to do what you believe is right in the interest of justice. Okay. I'm sorry to tell you, you are no longer the United States Attorney General. (laughter) Mr. Severino. SEVERINO: The resignation is the proper course if you cannot execute it. But the president is going to find somebody that will eventually follow his orders. He wants to know if it'll be you. He wants to know if you will investigate a person-- there is plausible evidence. We've got the photographs. You were good on the Green Business Bureau. Would you? Yeah, if there's enough there there, then I would investigate. TANG: You would investigate. There would have to be sufficient suspicion. TANG: Well, that's what we're finding out, to find... SEVERINO: Right. Look, we're not like the communists-- "Show me the man, I'll show you the crime." Right, we don't do that in the United States. But if there is enough there, there... TANG: Yeah. - Then I would be able to investigate. TANG: Okay. It all depends on the facts. - Yes. SEVERINO: But the president does get to say, "We ought to look into this area." - Okay. - Look, if the president says we're going to take down the mob in New York... - Yes. - ...you go to New York and you shake down mobsters, right? So, the president can order the attorney general... - Congratulations, you are now the Attorney General of the United States. (laughter) CHRISTIE: Not so fast, because I think Ryan and I have something to say about that. And if Gonzales resigned because he felt he was asked to do something by the president of the United States that was unethical, you can imagine that would be questions one through 50 for Severino at his confirmation hearing. TANG: Okay. - So, not so fast. TANG: Not so fast. - Not so fast on the attorney general... TANG: Acting Attorney General of the United States, Roger Severino. And the president says... "Priority number two, investigate that farmer guy who's on TV criticizing me." Will you do that? There would have to be some basis. TANG: Oh, he says... SEVERINO: ...to suspect A crime was done, a federal crime. TANG: Totally. He's looking on his desk, he's like... "He's got that tractor side hustle. "You know people like this, they don't report their income, taking deductions." IRS, everybody's committed a little bit of tax fraud. (chuckling) TANG: Will you investigate Farmer Jon? For tax fraud? That would be a tough one. TANG: That would be a tough one? Because I, I know the context, you see. And I would go through the same thought process as my predecessor attorney general, that we should not be targeting our political enemies and selectively enforce our law. So you agree with the norm, we should not use the power of prosecution against a political enemy. That should not... that should not be the way the law enforced... the law is enforced. No, we are, we are better than that as a nation. Okay. So... You're not the attorney general anymore, and Mr. Severino is no longer the attorney general, either. (laughter) - Resigned. TANG: The president finds another acting attorney general who will investigate Farmer Jon. Mr. Tester, you are under the most intrusive level of audit that the IRS can perform. And I'm curious, what's happening in your life now that you've been targeted in this way by the president? Are your kids, your spouse, are they affected? You've got to defend yourself. That's additional resources that are going out the door, in a marginally... uh, financial situation. TANG: Yeah. So, it would probably push you over, you'd lose the farm quicker. You mentioned your bank account. TESTER: Yeah. - With lawyers' bills... TESTER: Yeah. - You've hit empty. Yeah. TANG: So you call your niece, who is, after all, the greatest niece in the world. Sarah, you call around to some law firms. And crickets. No one is willing to represent the farmer who is the president's outspoken critic. What's happening? Why not? Obviously, the president's threats have worked and it's chilling people from wanting to stand against the administration. Is that a problem? Yeah. (laughter) TANG: But why? I mean, are we really worried about elite DC, New York, San Francisco lawyers who are being cowed into silence? They're going to be fine, they're rich. How does it affect Americans? Legal representation is at the foundation of our adversarial system. If you're being accused of a crime under investigation, just being under investigation alone will really require having legal representation. Great legal representation, ideally. And so, if lawyers don't feel free to take on unpopular clients because of the political atmosphere, then we've lost what we founded this country to do. TANG: Mr. Brat, one final word. BRAT: Yeah, I just want to weigh on this... this-- the moral issue here and the legal issue is clouded by the fact that this President Power guy was targeted back in '16. You have some concerns. BRAT: A few. - About the other side... BRAT: Yes, yes. TANG: ...using prosecutorial power. This is nothing new, in other words. TANG: I understand. Yes. We're going to fast forward a little bit, because I have some news. There's a special election in Middlevania. And our winner of the election is none other than Attorney General Dan Goldman. Senator Goldman, congratulations. Thank you so much. (laughter) TANG: So, the House and the Senate were under control of the Powerton party by the slimmest of margins, and the Senate was 50 to 50. So that one election flips control. Which means, Senator Ryan, congratulations. You are now the Senate majority leader. You've got power, maybe you've got some options. so you are hosting a strategy call with some other prominent members of your party. It's on Zoom. Senator-elect Goldman has joined the Zoom call from his phone. Mr. Tester is on the call. He is gaining some prominence in the party, considering a run for public office himself. Help us think through what the opposition party's strategy should be. Should you resist President Powerton at all costs or try to reach across the aisle and find common ground? From kind of the power struggle that we were talking about here earlier, I think it would be constructive. I think the American people want to see us working together. TESTER: Absolutely, unequivocally. You reach across the aisle, you try to find people that you can work with on the other side of the aisle and within your own party to retake the legislative branch's... power. TANG: Hold on, I'm sorry. Hold on. You were under investigation... TESTER: Yeah. From President Powerton's Department of Justice. - Yep. TANG: An IRS audit. You were almost bankrupted, you almost lost the farm. Yeah. TANG: And now you want to work together? Yeah. With his administration, his party? I, I work with the people in the Congress to come up with a plan to take the power back that the executive branch has taken from the legislative branch. TANG: Wow. - Absolutely. If, if you go in with personal axes to grind, and, "I want to just grind this ax," totally ineffective. And I want to be effective, I want to make sure this democracy works the way the forefathers intended. TANG: Senator-elect Goldman, are you in agreement? No. (laughter) I am salivating at the subpoena power. (laughter) TANG: You want to take it to the president? GOLDMAN: Well... You don't want to cooperate? I think you go on two different pathways. Um... The abuse of power through executive orders has to be reckoned with through oversight and, if necessary, through the subpoena power. TANG: The strategy call is difficult. You can see the opposition party struggling with the weight of governing. But while the Zoom strategy call is happening, all of a sudden... loud boom. There has been a terrible car accident. Somebody slammed into Senator-elect Goldman as he was getting out of his car. He's in the hospital. He's been badly injured, but he will survive. The driver of the vehicle was a 28-year-old man named Kent Knightley. He says it was an accident. Kent Knightley is tried, convicted of felony assault. President Powerton's most fervent supporters are sharing memes saying "Pardon Kent Knightley." Now, many of you are at a meeting with the president when he brings this up. "Have you guys heard how they're calling "this Kent Knightley kid a hero? "I think they might be right. I think I'm going to pardon him." Senator Christie? I would advise the president that, you know, he should look very carefully at the factors that are considered historically for these type of pardons to be granted. I would say to him, you know, it would be a very, very unpopular decision to do that. But it's his call. It's... It's the president's judgment. That's why we need to elect presidents with judgment. (laughter) TANG: We've got something really interesting happening over at this table. Constitution of the United States is out on the table. Chief Justice Duncan, Mr. Severino, working together, despite being on opposite sides, looking at the Constitution. Any thoughts? SEVERINO: Well, yeah, it goes back... DUNCAN: Excuse me, I'm not on a side. (chuckling) Fair enough. SEVERINO: On the side of the Constitution. (applause) - Touché. Touché. SEVERINO: So, it goes back to an earlier point: can you weaponize the justice system? And some political parties do, and some presidents do on occasion. Very recently, we've had that experience of weaponization. The pardon power is actually a check on that weaponization. If one president goes too far, the next president could pardon the people who are unjustly prosecuted for political reasons. TANG: Okay. - Yeah. TANG: The president likes what he's hearing. The president says... "Roger, absolutely." The other side, right, they... Maybe he should have kept him as attorney general. TANG (laughing): Maybe... he's rethinking it. JENNINGS: Well, the discussion in the room among the president's advisors is very simple. "Can" does not mean "should." And as a political advisor to the president, the correct thing to say here is, "You can do this, "but you have to ask yourself whether you should do it "as it relates to your own personal political influence in this country and your legacy." TANG: The president listens to everybody. He really appreciates what you said, Roger, and he says to you, "You know what? "The other side did this. "They were out there pardoning friends, family members. I'm pardoning Kent Knightley." Folks, the Powerton administration continues. It's a bumpy ride, but eventually he has to run for re-election, and ladies and gentlemen, he loses. He loses to a firebrand young governor named Dana Novo. Dana Novo is the president of the United States. Her vice president is somebody who's in this room, a citizen whose plain-talking style has connected with the American people. (laughter) Goldman. (laughter) TANG: Congratulations, Mr. Tester, you're now the vice president of the United States. - Perfect. (applause) - God, what a country. CHRISTIE: So sorry. I'm so sorry, Jon. - Yeah, I know. TANG: Only in America. - What was that about a warm bucket of spit? (laughter) TANG: You're going to have a chance, Mr. Vice President, to give some advice to your new president, President Novo, but right now she's on TV. She's on TV giving a speech. It's her first week in office, she's rallying the base. So here's what she says. She says, "We fought against "President Powerton's overreach at every turn. "There were no limits on what President Powerton could do. "Well, turnabout is fair play. "I am going to "defund an institution, an agency "that we all know is wasteful. "It's the Department of Defense. "$800 billion it spends. (panelist chuckling) "I'm issuing an executive order, "cutting spending by 20%. "The waste, we're going to find it, "and we're going to cut it, "and here's what we're going to do with it. "We're going to spend that money on the true source of "American national security, our public schools. "We're going to buy books, not bombs. I'm calling it Operation Education." Senator Christie, you, at the very beginning, made a comment that predicted a lot of this. You said, "You want to reduce funding at a federal agency, go through Congress." Now, a president of the opposing party wants to do the same thing. You could run a victory lap. You could tell us, "I told you so." It would be appropriate. Anything you'd like to say? Yeah, well, now you do a press conference. (laughter) Sure, now you definitely do a press conference, and, and you go after the current president for, I'm sure, that the current president had negative things to say about President Powerton trying to cut the GBB. So I would have my staff go and find those comments. And I would say, you know, the president is a hypocrite. TANG: Okay. CHRISTIE: That the current president isn't the flaming star you talked about, but is a flaming hypocrite... TANG: Is a hypocrite. - ...for, you know, having prosecuted the case against the GBB, but now is trying to do what I consider substantively the same thing. TANG: Mr. Severino, do you agree that President Novo does have the legal power to cancel spending at the Department of Defense? Cancel, yes. Reallocate spending that was appropriated is a different question. TANG: Got it. So you would tell members of Powerton's base that, yes, she can cut $160 billion in defense spending. What you can't do is buy your kids books or good teachers. Wouldn't frame it that way. (laughter) TANG: Do you have any regrets about making such bold claims to presidential power when Powerton was in office now that the shoe is on the other foot? SEVERINO: No, you have to be consistent about it. Now, unfortunately, we lost the Supreme Court, so now they have to apply by those exact same rules-- play by those same rules, so. TANG: Oh. Is that what you were going to say, Mr. Jennings? Absolutely. We had a legal point of view on it at the time, we lost. We tried to work with the Congress on it. The new administration-- by the way, I'd just like to get a little sympathy for Roger and I being unemployed at this point. (laughter) And... and that, you know, that's the rules of the road. Now you got to play by the, by the Supreme Court ruling. Are you a little bit grateful now that the shoe is on the other foot, that the Supreme Court, our third branch of government, has ruled against you on the first case? I'm neither grateful nor ingrateful. I just react to the circumstances as they exist in the moment. At the time, I was the president's spokesperson. We had a point of view, we lost, and now I expect every subsequent administration to abide by that or have their own point of view. And when I'm, you know, the next administration's spokesperson, I'll... (chuckles) I'll abide by their point of view at that time as well. He's enjoying his time in the private sector right now. (laughter) TANG: Chief Justice Duncan. As you know, the Supreme Court establishes precedent in every case. It's not necessarily bound, except to the extent that it wishes to be viewed as consistent by what prior Supreme Courts have held, but they are very clear about the facts of a case and whether those facts are on all fours. Subsequent facts. JENNINGS: I will give you some political advice, though, which is that there's a big darn difference between canceling Farmer Jon's solar panels and turning off the national security of the United States. And I do appreciate that, and if I took political advice, I would value it. (laughter and applause) TANG: Senator Ryan, Vice President-elect Tester, Senator Goldman, you are sitting in the Oval Office when President Novo comes into the office after the speech, and she's looking for high-fives. "We did it. We took it to them. Everything Powerton did," right? "We're using it on him now. This is great. It's our moment." Senator Goldman, would you support her effort to use bold claims about presidential power for what she believes is good? No, I, I think that you've got to follow the law. And that the law has to be adhered to, regardless of which party. And unfortunately for our party, we generally take the high road and make sure that we follow the law, whereas... sometimes that's not always the case in President Powerton's party. That's why he's the junior senator from our state. (laughter) TANG: Mr. Vice President. This country's been around for nearly 250 years and, and we've got a constitution that is really the basis for this country moving forward. Follow the Constitution. Mr. Vice President Tester has made a powerful plea to his president, "Please don't do this." Is that what you're saying? That's exactly correct. TANG: Please don't do this. I am president of the Senate, as vice president, so yes. TANG: You are president of the Senate. President Novo looks at you and she shakes her head. She says, "No, this is the way the game is played now. And as you shuffle out of the Oval Office, you hear her call out something that sends shivers down your spine. She says, "Bring me my attorney general. I've got a long list of political enemies." We have one more question for all of the panelists. We've seen a lot unfold today. Some bold claims to power by presidents from two very different parties. Maybe you were okay with some of those power plays. But maybe you were deeply troubled. My question for you is this: is there anything that we can do better, anything we can agree on for how to move our country forward? ISGUR: The source of a lot of these problems is Congress has dwindled in power and prestige. The American people should be holding Congress accountable for actually doing their job, whether it's passing appropriations, reining in executive power, insisting that their laws be actually passed, holding investigations when they're not. None of that is happening. And if you don't rein in executive power when it's your guy in office, then we're just on this never-ending cycle. TANG: Senator Ryan. I think we need leaders with guts. Like we need leaders with, with courage that are able to not just tell the opposition no, but to tell your own party, sometimes, no. No, you're crossing a line. TESTER: You've got to start talking to one another, and you've got to develop trust. And that's how you do it, and you use the Constitution as the foundation for moving forward. Congress can't be AWOL. GOLDMAN: I think the Senator Tester is correct that we have to be able to... TESTER: Vice President, please. (laughter) RYAN: Way to go, Jon. - So sorry. (laughter) That's why he's a freshman. (laughter) I... I think Mr. Vice President Tester is correct that we do need to be able to sit down and figure out a solution. But before we get there, we need everybody to commit to wanting to find a solution. SHORT: Strongly agree that Congress has abdicated a lot of responsibility. But, you know, next year, we celebrate 250 years of our country. And I think that we don't often appreciate what an amazing system our founders created. But our founders also said it's for a moral and highly educated people. And I think that, right now, we have a system that's electing performance artists in the highest levels of, of government. And until the American people reclaim that responsibility, I think you're going to continue to have challenges. And I think it, it ultimately-- the system is working the way our founders intended, but it's the responsibility of the American people and the voters to elect people of high moral character who honor their oaths. You know, power is so intoxicating, as we know. And so, to place that power in someone who doesn't have the character to exercise it responsibly, as the president of the United States, this is very, very dangerous. One last question. Folks, is there any reason for hope? JENNINGS: I'm hopeful. As long as we can speak and speak to each other, and debate each other, and vote and then do it all again two years later... it will-- it will all work out, because this experiment is working, in my opinion, even through troubled times. STAHL: I'm not hopeful. TANG: You're not hopeful? STAHL: I look at our institutions, all of which have lost the respect and trust of the public. I worry about the future of democracy, obviously. And I don't see the path out. So, I'm kind of down. TANG: Roger Severino. Well, I'm hopeful because the American people, you never want to bet against them. And our system allows course correction. We've gone through a massive course correction, so I'm much more hopeful now than I was just a few months ago. And that really goes to the genius of our system. You knew what you're getting once, you try it out, you see something different, you don't like it, you switch back. What really gives the, the fundamental hope for us being able to go through all these problems, still go home as Americans united because we know our democracy is what holds us together. This democracy is exactly what our founders represented it to be, which is not perfect. And they say it right in the beginning of the Constitution, it was an effort to form a more perfect union. And so, to me, I'm hopeful, because I look at all the other alternatives out there-- I'm not moving. TANG: John Tester. The young people that I've been around are going to do a hell of a lot better job of running this country than my generation. And I firmly believe that. And I think, I tell them all the time, "Make a difference. Run for office. "And then when you get in, follow your gut, because you got a better one than my generation has." TANG: And with that, folks, we bid farewell to Middlevania, until the next time. (applause) - Thank you. - Thank you. - Appreciate it, thank you. - Thank you so much. - Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you, Roger. Appreciate it. Thank you. ♪ ♪ ANNOUNCER: For more about "Breaking the Deadlock," visit us at pbs.org/deadlock. ♪ ♪ "Breaking the Deadlock" is available on am*zon Prime Video. ♪ ♪