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Troy

W. E. B. DuBois Criticizes Capitalism

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Du Bois's speech reminded me of a comment @Delano, made in a conversation I started last week.  Du Bois died a year after I was born and was old enough to have personally known black people who were formerly enslaved. It is a crying shame that almost 60 years after this speech was delivered the things Du Bois criticized have only gotten worse. His point on what we now refer to as campaign finance reform was particularly telling.

W. E. B. Du Bois Criticizes Capitalism in the audio below.  He was 93 when this speech was delivered and was a remarkable human.  It seems he was wrong about socialism being the dominant world structure.  I guess he was far more confident or optimistic in human nature.

“…American Negroes must know what is going on in the world today and learn for themselves what [Socialism] has to teach them in order that they may preserve their culture, get rid of their poverty, ignorance and disease and help America live up at least to a shadow of its vain boast as the land of the free and the home of the brave”

Del, maybe Dubois was right too.

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Although I'm not a pure Capitalist and prefer a mixed economy with the best elements of both socialism and capitalism....I lean more toward Capitalism and the so-called Free Market system as the best economic system for not only Black people but human beings in general.

Booker T. Washington said the same thing and this was one of the reasons he and Dubouis didn't get along.

Capitalism isn't perfect, but it's more in tune with human nature as it provides motives and incentives for most people...especially people with ambition...to aspire to.

It inspires you to be creative and bold and take risks for rewards.

While I think SOME things should be socialized and used for the good of the public....like healthcare and police protection.....socialism in and of itself isn't very practical for our people.

To keep it real.....
Too many of our people are LAZY, and if they know they can get taken care of in the way of food, clothing, and shelter while not having to work than many of them will take advantage of such system and pretty soon society will collapse from so many people not working.


What we need is Capitalism with a strong social safteynet.

But most people in general, and especially our young men need a strong INCENTIVE to work and be ambitious.

The promise of getting rich, getting plenty of women, having nice things, and owning property is that incentive to make sure people keep the society operating.

 

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I guess the problem in the US is that we do not practice a true form of capitalism, which is the fundamental problem.  I

I don't agree that capitalism is "in tune with human nature," unless you consider the exploitation of large swaths of the earth's population and the concentration of wealth into the hands of a few "human nature."

People are more effective when they share resources and work together.

While I agree there are many people who seek wealth, women, property and nice things as you suggest; I think most of that motivation is created because of the capitalist system.  It is part of the conditioning that is required to make our brand of capitalism work.

In fact, many could make a strong argument that constant consumption or the desire for it, makes us less happy.  Are we happier upgrading our cell phones every two years, or buying more clothing than we can ever wear? 

Besides the majority of us are not benefiting from this system.  I can't image that any thinking person would agree that progressing on our current trajectory is sustainable.  

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To say that people are more effective when they share resources and work together is like saying society is better when people don't lie or steal from eachother.

Meaning...the statement is just as impractical and unrealistic as it is obvious.

Since when or in what society have people EVER worked together in harmony and shared resources?

Even before slavery and colonialism and before Africans or Native Americans came into contact with Europeans.....Africans and Natives had their own despots, dictators, and blood thirsty strong-men who ruled over their tribes and kingdoms with violent absolutism.
I'm not saying this was the case with all or even most African and Native American leaders.....but many.
You always had men who were smarter than others and saw a way to "take advantage" of the other.

Even under communism and socialism......
In THEORY everyone lives together equally with the same resources all working according to his/her ability.

But in PRACTICE of just about every communist nation you have the masses of the people living poorly with just a very basics guranteed to them in the form of food, clothing, and shelter while the members of the communist party of that nation living large and dividing any wealth produced among themselves.

Atleast in Capitalist America, England, Nigeria, or Brazil you have a handful of super rich people...a large number of poor....and a pretty decent size (but shrinking) middle class who own various degrees of wealth.

When China and Russia were straight up purely communist EVERYONE was poor and living in the projects.....even those who were highly educated.
While only a couple thousand people who were members of the government got to enjoy the finer thing of modern society like thier own house, cars, and fine dining....and even wearing a suit.

It was actually nothing but an extreme form of Capitalism that eliminated the middle-class!


I'm not coming from a right-wing conservative Republican point of view.
But after having lived all over the United States, traveled to other countries, and spoken to people from all over the world about what they've experienced where they were ...it's lead me to my current beliefs that Capitalism in practice....although not perfect....is much better than Communism or even socialism.

The desire for wealth and women isn't generated or create by society.....
These traits are inborn.
MOST men have the natural desire to not only procreate and spread his genes but also accumulate the resources to protect and care for himself and his progeny.
Also, most men by nature want to CONTROL and OWN resources and property....not share them or have them taken away from him and distributed to others.


I agree with you that most people aren't benefiting by this current system, which is why it needs to either be reformed or replaced.

But the biggest problem with the system isn't that it's not working, but that it's just not working for most of OUR people.

In other words.......
In a Capitalist system that demands some people must assume the role of wealthy owners while the masses must assume the role of poor workers;
Perhaps Black people should take a lesson from the Asians and other immigrants in this nation and start trying to audition for the role of WEALTHY OWNERS instead of constantly begging for a role a poor worker....who doesn't even WORK half the time!

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thewisdonofnagtiveamericans.jpgI'm reading a book right now, The Wisdom of the Native Americans, just little quotes from the indigenous people describing their way of life.

There is nothing in it that describes all of the negative attributes that @Pioneer1 seems to think is human nature.

Again, I think this is more a reflection of conditioning than an indication of human nature.  I sure you've traveled and talked to a lot of people but if you probably talked to others like yourself who were fed a diet of the virtues of capitalism and the ills of socialism.

I'm not trying to glorify the native American's but there is nothing in their history to reflect what you describe as human nature.

The same goes for the precolonial African peoples.

Capitalism, as we know it effectively started with Europeans about 500 years ago.  The shit only works when people are exploited and enslaved--you know this right?

Even when great wealth is amassed by a few they never share it. Today the majority of the Earth's population lives in abject poverty thousands of people die every day from starvation.  This does not have to be the case, we have the resources to eradicate starvation, we just don;t have the systems to do it.

In all of your travels have you seen real poverty? Do you think it is human nature to let that exist?

 

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Is it any wonder that I am a  pessimistic?  What is there to be optimistic about?  "Man's inhumanity to man is what prevails in this god-forsaken world were truth is a casualty, and equality a myth.  The rich get richer and the poor will always be with us.  

Have a good day.   

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Troy

For every book you can find me showing how peaceful and wholesome the Native Americans were and what a "heaven" the Americas were before White people arrived.....I can find another that portrays Native Americans as blood thirsty savages and cannibals who were ripping eachothers hearts until they were either decimated or "civilized".

As I've said numerous times before, to me it's a bit futile to argue over history because no one is able to actually PROVE what happend hundreds of years ago.
The most you can do is gather evidence to support your position and hope it outweighs the opposition.

I'm sure the truth lays somewhere in between.
Some tribes were violent and war like, others were peaceful and isolated.
Some were matriarchal and had women leaders, others were partriarchal and men called the shots.

The same with the continent of Africa and it's many different tribes and ethnic groups who like they are today were probably warring with eachother thousands of years before the first White man ever set foot on the continent.

The point is, people very from one region to another and no place on this Earth is perfect.
It wasn't back then, and it isn't now.


 


The shit only works when people are exploited and enslaved--you know this right?

And you
DO know that Communism doesn't even work AT ALL right?


I don't think Capitalism necessarily needs enslavement to work properly but it DOES need a certain amount of exploitation in order to function.
But exploitation ITSELF lines up with human nature.

A small minority of people are very smart.
The majority are of average intelligence.

A small minority of people are very ambitious and want to own everything
The majority are content owning just enough to provide comfort for themselves and their families

A small minority of people are managerial and love organizing and controling people
The majority don't like the mental work of organizing or telling others what to do and would rather be TOLD what to do.

Thus you have the recipe for exploitation.


I'm not arguing that it's right....or wrong..but almost all human beings are exploited be someone to some degree at some time or another.

When you realize this, you then demand adequate compensation for your exploitation or you go into business for yourself and turn the tables around.



 




Cynique Miss Sunshine

Is it any wonder that I am a pessimistic? What is there to be optimistic about? "Man's inhumanity to man is what prevails in this god-forsaken world were truth is a casualty, and equality a myth. The rich get richer and the poor will always be with us.

Have a good day


Hey Sunshine!
I'm reading a pretty good book I think YOU should check out:



Image result for alpha god

 

You can take lessons from this dude......lol.
He paints an even gloomier picture of humanity than YOU do!

I have no doubt that Troy would also find much of the content of this book quite interesting as well.


 

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I discovered late in life that I am  an Existentialist and didn't know it.:huh:

                                                       The 3 Stages of Life: 

                                                                 (1)  Birth 

                                                                 (2) What the fuck is this?

                                                                 (3) Death

 

 

                                                                         

 

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Miss Sunshine, that was a good one LOL!  (is that original)

@Pioneer1 please refer me to a single book, written in the last 50 years, that describes native Americans as "blood thirsty savages and cannibals." 

It is interesting you are so quick to say what can't be proven but you use "unprovable" information to support your arguments.

Pioneer America was built on the back on, and derives most of its wealth from, the labor of enslaved Africans.  Even today people labor all over the Earth in slave-like conditions so that you can pay $200 for a pair of sneakers that cost a few bucks to produce.

It is very easy to become wealthy if

  • Your labor costs are $0
  • You have consumers brainwashed into buying thing they don't need or paying for the things that they don't need
  • You own politicians so that you don't pay taxes, don't deal with regulations, get bailed out if you ever lose money, etc
  • You convince the masses that you are righteous because greed is good, or as you put it "Human Nature"

No man, what we have is an oligarchy and it is sad to see so many people defend it when so many people are suffering under it. I guess it is no different that the house slave who fights to defend massa's house...

 

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No, the 3 stages of life meme was not original.  I came across it, and it made me laugh out loud.  And that was a good thing. Life is a joke you just have to catch on to. Maybe.  :wacko:

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Lol Yeah that was a good one!

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21 hours ago, Cynique said:

I discovered late in life that I am  an Existentialist and didn't know it.:huh:

                                                       The 3 Stages of Life: 

                                                                 (1)  Birth 

                                                                 (2) What the fuck is this?

                                                                 (3) Death

 

 

                                                                         

 

And some Joy

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Troy

@Pioneer1 please refer me to a single book, written in the last 50 years, that describes native Americans as "blood thirsty savages and cannibals." 

 

Image result for Cannibalism headhunting and human sacrifice in north america


I believe that book was published in 2008

I just found that one after a quick 2 minute search, but there are others.........

I didn't post this book because I agreed with it's content, but to prove my previous point that for every book showing how gentle and peaceful the Native Americans were there are others that say the exact opposite.

Again, it's fruitless to debate pre-modern history because as soon as you THINK you know the truth about an event someone comes along with brand new information that was stored away in some old vault somewhere.

I'm not going to deny that the exploitation of Black labor wasn't one of the key factors in making this nation the economic powerhouse that it is; but slavery existed and STILL EXISTS in dozens of nations all around the planet  If slavery was the sole reason why the United States is so rich then why aren't OTHER nations that practiced and STILL practice slavery just as rich?

Slavery....especially the exploitation of Black labor...was prevelant ALL OVER the Americas from Cuba to Brazil.....why aren't THEY doing as good as the United States?

CAPITALISM and is one of the reasons for our tremendous wealth.
Not JUST because of the exploitation...although that admittedly is a factor...but also because:

a) The incentives Capitalism offers to not only the business owners but also to the workers themselves actually encourages productivity with the hope for more gain.

 b  ) The light restriction and regulation under most Capitalist systems allow for a more flexible way of designing and managing economic structures and businesses to maximize profits and production.

 

 

No man, what we have is an oligarchy and it is sad to see so many people defend it when so many people are suffering under it. I guess it is no different that the house slave who fights to defend massa's house...

Well.....
If the field slave doesn't have anything to OFFER the house slave and doesn't have a plan to get both of them free, perhaps the house slave is better off keeping his ass IN THE HOUSE and enjoying as much of massa's luxuries as he can get his hands on!

Think about it.
If the field negro doesn't have a plan to get free, and is just mad because he has to work his ass off sweating in the hot sun.....is YOU leaving the comforts of the house just to come out and keep him company in his misery going to help either one of you?

It's always best to NOT be a slave.
However if by misfortune you are gonna be slave ANY-damn- way....
And you didn't receive divine revelation to help you free yourself.
And you aren't willing to die fighting massa for your freedom
And you don't have a viable plan for your freedom.
......then wouldn't the logical thing to do is derive as much pleasure as you can out of such a jacked up situation?




I agree that we live in an oligarchy.....an Oligarchal Republic to be exact.
And it's rapidly becoming a PLUTOCRACY.

But the few have ALWAYS ruled the many, in just about every human society you can think of.

You'd like to live under a Democracy but a true Democracy among humans is almost impossible because if EVERYONE is in charge then who would be authorized to make rules and keep order?

You don't want to live under a theocracy where only one religion is allowed.

You certainly don't want to live under a dictatorship with on man calling all the shots.

So do you want to live in an anarchy where NOBODY rules and everyone does whatever they want with no one to answer to?

That'll last about 2 weeks......lol.

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