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Allegory Vs History


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frankster

 


Ok then state the Value you see....as you keep going back forth

 

I'm not going back and forth.
I'm saying the same things, at different intervals...and you keep forgetting what I've said already, lol.

 

One of the values of this story is it's ability to spark dialog.

Another value is it's ability to mask the actual facts behind allegory and keep them secret save for a select few.
Now mind you...I PERSONALLY don't see that ability as valuable to me, because it's a bunch of lies.
But it's valuable to the people who DESIGNED it to be deceptive...so it's has value.

 

 

 

 

 

The Link you provided - Bible hub.com also used the word "Lucifer" in its translation and "helel in in it's Transliteration....are you now calling into question the source you provided ?

 

No, I've BEEN called it into question as I never completely trusted it in the first place.
I just trust it MORE THAN I trust the current English translations.
It's CLOSER to the original.....but still not the original....which I probably wouldn't trust THAT too much either, lol.

 

Again, it was written by the hands of men so I don't expect it to be perfect....like so many expect the Bible to be.

 

 

 

 

 


Lucifer means Light bringer/bearer - in Latin the Star the rises in the morning is called Lucifer/Venus rising - morning star

 

That was Roman.

But in Greece, there was a deity named Prometheus who was also called a "Light Bearer" and was said to have brought fire from the "gods" to "humanity".

Those are myths/allegories most likely based on the same individual bringing the same "light" to the same group of people but as those who founded the Roman lands split from those who founded the Greek lands....the story got modified between the two.

 

 

 

 

 

I have maintain throughout our exchange that inspired men wrote the Bible....and that Men are frail vain and do err.

 

The question was, do you believe that the Bible contains propaganda?

 

 

 

 

 

 


After so many interpretations, translations and intentional or unintentional mistranslation/misinterpretations..... it's a miracle that we can understand it at all.

 

I don't consider that a miracle.
I consider it in many cases a waste of valuable time and energy.

 

 

 

 

 


What and Where...is the question.

 

What is the "second hand source" that you speak of?


 

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18 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:


frankster

 


Ok then state the Value you see....as you keep going back forth

 

I'm not going back and forth.
I'm saying the same things, at different intervals...and you keep forgetting what I've said already, lol.

 

One of the values of this story is it's ability to spark dialog.

Another value is it's ability to mask the actual facts behind allegory and keep them secret save for a select few.
Now mind you...I PERSONALLY don't see that ability as valuable to me, because it's a bunch of lies.
But it's valuable to the people who DESIGNED it to be deceptive...so it's has value.

In one response you prove my point...

You state "another value is ability to mask" and in the very next sentence you state "I personally don't see that ability as valuable"....now that's a contradiction.

Then you try to straddle the fence by stating "it's valuable to the people who design it"

You must find in these stories what is valuable and relevant to YOU....then follow that trail in Life and Thought.

 

18 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

The Link you provided - Bible hub.com also used the word "Lucifer" in its translation and "helel in in it's Transliteration....are you now calling into question the source you provided ?

 

No, I've BEEN called it into question as I never completely trusted it in the first place.
I just trust it MORE THAN I trust the current English translations.
It's CLOSER to the original.....but still not the original....which I probably wouldn't trust THAT too much either, lol.

 

Again, it was written by the hands of men so I don't expect it to be perfect....like so many expect the Bible to be.

The reputable source you posted...you now do not trust completely - you wouldn't even trust the original.

What are who do you Trust?

 

18 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:


Lucifer means Light bringer/bearer - in Latin the Star the rises in the morning is called Lucifer/Venus rising - morning star

 

That was Roman.

But in Greece, there was a deity named Prometheus who was also called a "Light Bearer" and was said to have brought fire from the "gods" to "humanity".

Those are myths/allegories most likely based on the same individual bringing the same "light" to the same group of people but as those who founded the Roman lands split from those who founded the Greek lands....the story got modified between the two.

Yes that too maybe so....Find the value

 

 

18 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

I have maintain throughout our exchange that inspired men wrote the Bible....and that Men are frail vain and do err.

 

The question was, do you believe that the Bible contains propaganda?

Of course it does....The bible wants you and I to live a righteous life - As it is most efficacious.

 

18 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:


After so many interpretations, translations and intentional or unintentional mistranslation/misinterpretations..... it's a miracle that we can understand it at all.

 

I don't consider that a miracle.
I consider it in many cases a waste of valuable time and energy.

Yes....for you it is a waste of time and energy....

For Many it is the source  great  Strength and Energy....Studying Scripture for many is the Most Valuable Time.

 

 

18 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:


What and Where...is the question.

 

What is the "second hand source" that you speak of?


 

The answer you seek is in the public domain....when you are serious - you will find it.

Right now You jest .

 

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frankster

 


In one response you prove my point...

You state "another value is ability to mask" and in the very next sentence you state "I personally don't see that ability as valuable"....now that's a contradiction.

 

That's not a contradiction, that's your lack of comprehension of the statement.
 

I'm saying I PERSONALLY don't find it valuable to me....but I recognize that OTHERS find it valuable.  Especially those who came up with it.
I don't find pickled pig's feet valuable.....but many other people do.



 

Then you try to straddle the fence by stating "it's valuable to the people who design it"

So stating the obvious is "straddling the fence" in your book?


 

 

 

 

 

You must find in these stories what is valuable and relevant to YOU....then follow that trail in Life and Thought.

 

Why "must" I find something in these stories valuable and relevant to me?
Why can't I ignore them, move on to something I find valuable for my life, and let someone else who is interested in them "find the value"???

 

What you're saying is like trying to FORCE someone to watch a movie and find some entertainment in it.
It's a matter of PERSONAL choice.

 

 

 

 

 

The reputable source you posted...you now do not trust completely - you wouldn't even trust the original.

 

You keep saying "now" as if I've said before that I've put complete trust in them.
I don't put "complete trust" in ANY man-made document!

I trust some more than others, but completely or 100%...none.

 

 

 


What are who do you Trust?

 

The SUPREME BEING.

 

 

 

 


The bible wants you and I to live a righteous life - As it is most efficacious.

 

The Bible is an inanimate BOOK.
It has no wants or desires.

 

 

 

 

 

Yes....for you it is a waste of time and energy....

For Many it is the source  great  Strength and Energy.

 

So is cocaine.
Doesn't mean it's good for you.


 

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20 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

frankster
In one response you prove my point...

You state "another value is ability to mask" and in the very next sentence you state "I personally don't see that ability as valuable"....now that's a contradiction.

That's not a contradiction, that's your lack of comprehension of the statement.

I'm saying I PERSONALLY don't find it valuable to me....but I recognize that OTHERS find it valuable.  Especially those who came up with it.
I don't find pickled pig's feet valuable.....but many other people do.



 

Then you try to straddle the fence by stating "it's valuable to the people who design it"

So stating the obvious is "straddling the fence" in your book?

It is  either you are Lying or Confused...

I quote:-

"We can stop right there, because that's not true.
I see more value in it than just entertainment."

 

20 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

You must find in these stories what is valuable and relevant to YOU....then follow that trail in Life and Thought.

 

Why "must" I find something in these stories valuable and relevant to me?
Why can't I ignore them, move on to something I find valuable for my life, and let someone else who is interested in them "find the value"???

That is your Right....to choose.

 

 

20 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

What you're saying is like trying to FORCE someone to watch a movie and find some entertainment in it.
It's a matter of PERSONAL choice.

What you like or dislike is your preference....

Truth and Value is not a matter of preference....

Value is Beneficial....Truth is of Relevance/Righteousness

20 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

The reputable source you posted...you now do not trust completely - you wouldn't even trust the original.

 

You keep saying "now" as if I've said before that I've put complete trust in them.
I don't put "complete trust" in ANY man-made document!

I trust some more than others, but completely or 100%...none.

Good

 

20 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

 

 


What are who do you Trust?

 

The SUPREME BEING.

Good....how do you get information from this SUPREME BEING

 

20 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:


The bible wants you and I to live a righteous life - As it is most efficacious.

 

The Bible is an inanimate BOOK.
It has no wants or desires.

Hence the reason it is Divine...

John 1:1

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

 

20 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

Yes....for you it is a waste of time and energy....

For Many it is the source  great  Strength and Energy.

 

So is cocaine.
Doesn't mean it's good for you.


 

Yes...it's probably not good for you.

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frankster


 

It is  either you are Lying or Confused...

OR...(don't forget the third option) you can't comprehend, lol.

 

Because I recognize that OTHERS find something valuable that I don't...you think that means I'm lying or confused????

 

So as a man....
If I tell you that I don't see much value in a tube of red lip stick...but I understand how some women (or some other men...lol) DO find it valuable -you'd think I was lying or confused about that statement????

 

Man....

 

 

 

 


Truth and Value is not a matter of preference....

 

Actually both TRUTH and VALUE are a matter of preference to certain extents.

You can prefer to ACCEPT the truth or prefer NOT to accept it.

 

And values are HIGHLY preferential because what one person prefers to value another may disregard.

 

 

 

 


Value is Beneficial....Truth is of Relevance/Righteousness

 

I'm not sure if ALL value is beneficial.
Some values are harmful.

 

 

 

 

..how do you get information from this SUPREME BEING

 

It's not "this" SUPREME BEING but THEE SUPREME BEING.

This implies there are Others and you are focused on "This" particular One.  There is only ONE SUPREME BEING.

 

But to answer your question, I get information from The SUPREME BEING in numerous ways from Hunches, Dreams, Meditation, ect...

 

 

 

 

 

 

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

 

So says John.....a human being, who lived -said what he had to say- and died like the millions of other people at that time.
 

But how can Something be WITH Someone AND BE that very same Someone at the same time?

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20 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

frankster

It is  either you are Lying or Confused...

OR...(don't forget the third option) you can't comprehend, lol.

 

Because I recognize that OTHERS find something valuable that I don't...you think that means I'm lying or confused????

 

So as a man....
If I tell you that I don't see much value in a tube of red lip stick...but I understand how some women (or some other men...lol) DO find it valuable -you'd think I was lying or confused about that statement????

 

Man....

You said the following in bold type....please note the use of the personal pronoun "I"

From this"I see more value in it" to this I'm saying I PERSONALLY don't find it valuable to me"....Your sophistry will only deceive yourself.

 

20 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:


Truth and Value is not a matter of preference....

 

Actually both TRUTH and VALUE are a matter of preference to certain extents.

You can prefer to ACCEPT the truth or prefer NOT to accept it.

 

And values are HIGHLY preferential because what one person prefers to value another may disregard.

Preference is a personal choice...individual and local

Truth remains true whether you accept it or not....Universal and impersonal

Value also remains valuable whether you accept it or not...beneficial.

 

20 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

Value is Beneficial....Truth is of Relevance/Righteousness

 

I'm not sure if ALL value is beneficial.
Some values are harmful.

Usually only If used improperly.

Name One?

 

20 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

..how do you get information from this SUPREME BEING

 

It's not "this" SUPREME BEING but THEE SUPREME BEING.

This implies there are Others and you are focused on "This" particular One.  There is only ONE SUPREME BEING.

Cool

 

20 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

But to answer your question, I get information from The SUPREME BEING in numerous ways from Hunches, Dreams, Meditation, ect...

How do you know the source of these hunches and dreams are from the SUPREME BEING?

 

20 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

 

So says John.....a human being, who lived -said what he had to say- and died like the millions of other people at that time.
 

But how can Something be WITH Someone AND BE that very same Someone at the same time?

My heart is with me always and my heart is me.....easy

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frankster

 


You said the following in bold type....please note the use of the personal pronoun "I"

From this"I see more value in it" to this I'm saying I PERSONALLY don't find it valuable to me"....Your sophistry will only deceive yourself.

 

Let me SEE if I can break this down to you as simply as I can...

 

I'm not a smoker
I don't smoke cigarettes.
I don't find cigarettes valuable TO ME.

But because there are MILLIONS if not BILLIONS of people who do smoke cigarettes...I can see the value IN THEM.

 

VALUABLE TO ME focuses on myself and how the object relates to me

Where as VALUE IN focuses on the object and how other OTHER than myself may see value in it.

 

Do you NOW understand how those two statements can overlap yet be different from eachother????

 

 


Truth remains true whether you accept it or not....Universal and impersonal

 

Correct.
But you can still choose to accept it or reject it based on which one you PREFER to do.

You can either be FORCED to accept the truth or PREFER to accept it.

 

 

 

 

Usually only If used improperly.

Name One?

 

I'll go back to my cigarette analogy.

They are harmful, yet valuable and people desperately want them.

 

 

 

 

 

 

My heart is with me always and my heart is me.....easy

 

Not THAT easy....lol....because your heart ISN'T you.
It's merely a PART OF you.

 

If your heart WAS you...then your brain and liver could be removed and it wouldn't affect you in anyway because they aren't you, only your heart.

No, your heart is PART of you.


That's a mathematical fact.
 

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7 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:


frankster

 


You said the following in bold type....please note the use of the personal pronoun "I"

From this"I see more value in it" to this I'm saying I PERSONALLY don't find it valuable to me"....Your sophistry will only deceive yourself.

 

Let me SEE if I can break this down to you as simply as I can...

 

I'm not a smoker
I don't smoke cigarettes.
I don't find cigarettes valuable TO ME.

But because there are MILLIONS if not BILLIONS of people who do smoke cigarettes...I can see the value IN THEM.

 

VALUABLE TO ME focuses on myself and how the object relates to me

Where as VALUE IN focuses on the object and how other OTHER than myself may see value in it.

 

Do you NOW understand how those two statements can overlap yet be different from eachother????

No matter how you convolute the narrative....it is either you see value in it or you don't.

You are always the subject...so no matter what route you take to arrive at a point of seeing "value in" It - then ipso facto you now see" value to me"

 

7 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

 


Truth remains true whether you accept it or not....Universal and impersonal

 

Correct.
But you can still choose to accept it or reject it based on which one you PREFER to do.

You can either be FORCED to accept the truth or PREFER to accept it.

Truth has nothing to do with Preference....Truth remains unaffected by you preference or acceptance

 

7 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

Usually only If used improperly.

Name One?

 

I'll go back to my cigarette analogy.

They are harmful, yet valuable and people desperately want them.

If you smoke cigarette...they are harmful - Improper use.

If you sell or trade cigarette...profitable - better use

 

7 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

My heart is with me always and my heart is me.....easy

 

Not THAT easy....lol....because your heart ISN'T you.
It's merely a PART OF you.

7 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

If your heart WAS you...then your brain and liver could be removed and it wouldn't affect you in anyway because they aren't you, only your heart.

No, your heart is PART of you.


That's a mathematical fact.

100% of my heart is me

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frankster

 


No matter how you convolute the narrative....it is either you see value in it or you don't.

 

It's not me convoluting this issue but your understanding of my statement...or LACK of it....that is convoluting things for you.

I've repeated myself several times already and yet you still don't understand, for me...it's time to move on and no longer waste time on this particular point.

 

 

 


Truth has nothing to do with Preference....Truth remains unaffected by you preference or acceptance

 

Same thing with this issue.
We don't disagree, but you're choosing to focus on ONE aspect of my statement...IGNORE the other aspect of it...and then proceed to build a straw man to argue against based on the part you're focusing on.

Time for me to move on.

 

 

 


If you smoke cigarette...they are harmful - Improper use.

If you sell or trade cigarette...profitable - better use

 

You want to go in circles on this one as well I see.
Well.....
I'll roll with you a little bit because we haven't went over it a million times already like the previous two....

 

You asked me to name you something that is valuable yet harmful and I told you: CIGARETTES

They have value, and they also are harmful. Period.


Nothing to add behind it or "explain away".
You asked, and I provided.


Want another one?


Heroin
It's valuable yet harmful


Whether these substances are "properly used" or not is irrelevant to the question you asked me.

 

 

 

 

100% of my heart is me

 

No.
100% of your heart is PART of you...but it doesn't equal you.

If your heart were removed...YOU would still exist separate from your heart.
It can't be you.


When the Bible says the word was WITH "God" and that the word WAS "God"...that is a direct contradiction.
 

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5 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:


frankster

No matter how you convolute the narrative....it is either you see value in it or you don't.

 

It's not me convoluting this issue but your understanding of my statement...or LACK of it....that is convoluting things for you.

I've repeated myself several times already and yet you still don't understand, for me...it's time to move on and no longer waste time on this particular point.

Fallacy of equivocation and Ambiguity.

The Truth is whether you see value or you see value thru eyes (figure of speech) of some else and you think that that value is theirs  and not yours.....The Fact remains you see Value.

The Fact that you recognize that its valuable to them....you see that value.

 

 

5 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

Truth has nothing to do with Preference....Truth remains unaffected by you preference or acceptance

Same thing with this issue.
We don't disagree, but you're choosing to focus on ONE aspect of my statement...IGNORE the other aspect of it...and then proceed to build a straw man to argue against based on the part you're focusing on.

Time for me to move on.

Tigers do not exist because I prefer not to accept them - that's Denial....Regardless tigers still exist - that's a true or real.

 

5 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

If you smoke cigarette...they are harmful - Improper use.

If you sell or trade cigarette...profitable - better use

 

You want to go in circles on this one as well I see.
Well.....
I'll roll with you a little bit because we haven't went over it a million times already like the previous two....

 

You asked me to name you something that is valuable yet harmful and I told you: CIGARETTES

They have value, and they also are harmful. Period.


Nothing to add behind it or "explain away".
You asked, and I provided.


Want another one?


Heroin
It's valuable yet harmful


Whether these substances are "properly used" or not is irrelevant to the question you asked me.

I said "Usually only If used improperly." in my response....even before I said "name One"

Heroin has some medicinal value especially in earlier  times..

 

5 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

100% of my heart is me

 

No.
100% of your heart is PART of you...but it doesn't equal you.

If your heart were removed...YOU would still exist separate from your heart.
It can't be you.


When the Bible says the word was WITH "God" and that the word WAS "God"...that is a direct contradiction.
 

Name What Part of my Heart is not me ?

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