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Apparently most of you don't know what an ALLEGORY is.

An ALLEGORY is basically a symbolic story.
A story used to conceal certain historical events and facts that weren't meant for the public to know.
It's not the same as a myth or a fable, it has a specific purpose and that's to conceal truths from the general public and put it in symbolism so that only those in certain societies with the proper "keys" of understanding can figure out the true meaning behind the message/story.

The Bible is full of ALLEGORIES.

The Bible is a book made up not only of many different books stitched together over thousands of years by different authors and authorities, but even it's most basic section....The Pentateuch....is a collection of allegories that were stitched together by Jewish scholars in Babylon around 500 B.C.

The stories of Adam and Eve as well as the story of Noah's Ark are ALLEGORIES that the Jewish scholars took from earlier Akadian and Persian civilizations.

Akadian and Persian civilizations were different branches of a greater Caucasian civilization that spread in different directions from the Caucasus mountains.  Most of them share the same "Adam and Eve" stories and "Great Flood" stories because they all got these stories from the same source.  Caucasian scholars who told these stories as ALLEGORIES for various scholars in secret societies to read and understand the true meaning behind them.  

The average person reads the Bible and many of these other so-called holy books and assumes these stories are historically correct and actually did happen.  But those who are TRAINED and EDUCATED in theology like many Catholic priests, bishops, and other Biblical scholars have been taught that these stories are false....never happened....and are taught the true meaning behind them as well as why they were made up in the first place.

Most Jewish Rabbis and most Catholic priests don't believe the stories of the Bible.
Have a conversation with them and you'll see I'm telling the truth.

They'll tell you it doesn't matter whether the Jews were enslaved in Egypt or if all people come from Adam because yada yada yada.....but basically they're telling you they don't even believe in their own so-called "holy book".
They know better.

They know they are ALLEGORIES that are devised to cover up the truth behind the story.

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Some of ya'll are so tender. 

Deal with the fact and the knowledge that not everyone is going to agree with you.

Write a blog, get a camera person and go on cable TV.  

There are lot more things to get upset about. There are millions of people across this earth who are at risk of dying for lack of clean drinking water. And you're over here bellyaching about allegory and Bible stories. 

Oh and about that Kanye quote you are now warming up to: We Black people never CHOSE to keep silent. 

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/article/two-centuries-slave-rebellions-shaped-american-history
 

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Not so much the Internet.

Some discussion groups and social media Websites are much better than others. Some participants are much more mature than others.

Since I questioned a comment on one thread, others followed. I simply used what I learned about the Bible to respond.

And certain ones appear to be have become heated. The bottom line is a birth date is on most driver's licenses and it includes a month, a number day and the year of birth. Why someone would claim the mention of someone's age is a birthdate is beyond me. 

But that's in the past ... literally.

Personally, as I've said before, certain people might be invited here to contribute to mayhem. 

People can choose not to respond. I don't comment on most posts or to most people. Just things I find interesting or I know about.

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1 hour ago, Pioneer1 said:

Apparently most of you don't know what an ALLEGORY is.

An ALLEGORY is basically a symbolic story.
A story used to conceal certain historical events and facts that weren't meant for the public to know.
It's not the same as a myth or a fable, it has a specific purpose and that's to conceal truths from the general public and put it in symbolism so that only those in certain societies with the proper "keys" of understanding can figure out the true meaning behind the message/story.

The Bible is full of ALLEGORIES.     

I prefer to use Myth or Legends and Archetypes of the Human Experience

Allegory makes it almost fiction....as the place situation and events of the  narrative are now of no real social  or historical value

 

Is there any of the bible stories whose allegorical and symbolic meaning you can share  or elucidated the true message behind the story?

 

 

1 hour ago, Pioneer1 said:

 


The Bible is a book made up not only of many different books stitched together over thousands of years by different authors and authorities, but even it's most basic section....The Pentateuch....is a collection of allegories that were stitched together by Jewish scholars in Babylon around 500 B.C.

The stories of Adam and Eve as well as the story of Noah's Ark are ALLEGORIES that the Jewish scholars took from earlier Akadian and Persian civilizations.

Are you then saying there is no historical value in this stories?

 

1 hour ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

Akadian and Persian civilizations were different branches of a greater Caucasian civilization that spread in different directions from the Caucasus mountains.  Most of them share the same "Adam and Eve" stories and "Great Flood" stories because they all got these stories from the same source.  Caucasian scholars who told these stories as ALLEGORIES for various scholars in secret societies to read and understand the true meaning behind them.

What is the Name of this "Greater Caucasian Civilization"?

Are Semites Considered Caucasians?

 

 

1 hour ago, Pioneer1 said:

 


The average person reads the Bible and many of these other so-called holy books and assumes these stories are historically correct and actually did happen.  But those who are TRAINED and EDUCATED in theology like many Catholic priests, bishops, and other Biblical scholars have been taught that these stories are false....never happened....and are taught the true meaning behind them as well as why they were made up in the first place.

 

Most Jewish Rabbis and most Catholic priests don't believe the stories of the Bible.
Have a conversation with them and you'll see I'm telling the truth.

So when the bible says in Exodus 20:16  "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour" is that symbolic and has another meaning?

 

 

1 hour ago, Pioneer1 said:





They'll tell you it doesn't matter whether the Jews were enslaved in Egypt or if all people come from Adam because yada yada yada.....but basically they're telling you they don't even believe in their own so-called "holy book".
They know better.

They know they are ALLEGORIES that are devised to cover up the truth behind the story.

Do you know any of the true stories behind any of these allegories and or their real meaning?

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14 hours ago, frankster said:

Is there any of the bible stories whose allegorical and symbolic meaning you can share  or elucidated the true message behind the story?

 

Yes, @Pioneer1 Since you are kicking down the Bible so fervently but say that some aspects are true in these allegories, do share.

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Oh, look what I found!

A post actually RELEVANT to the subject of this thread!!!

 

 

 

 

frankster

 

Thanks for your questions......

 

 

I prefer to use Myth or Legends and Archetypes of the Human Experience

Allegory makes it almost fiction....as the place situation and events of the  narrative are now of no real social  or historical value


That's the PERCEPTION of what allegories are, but that's because most people don't know the actual definition OF the word "allegory".

They haven't been taught the key differences between "myth" "fable" "allegory" "legend" ect...so they think they all mean the same thing.

Allegories are stories that didn't happen but they are UNDERSTOOD (by those who are educated) as not being true but being symbolic.  Only those who are NOT educated (and that's most of the public today) believe that allegories are historically true or SHOULD be.

 

 

 

Is there any of the bible stories whose allegorical and symbolic meaning you can share  or elucidated the true message behind the story?

 

I'll give you a good example....the story of Adam and Eve.

The Biblical story of Adam and Eve was an allegory that was taken from earlier sources that were already circulating in the Middle East BEFORE the Bible was put together.  Specifically in the Babylon region where the Jews resided at around 600 B.C. and put the Pentetauch together

 

The STORY of Adam and Hawawa (later translated as "Eve") is was actually an allegory devised by secret societies in Babylon (among other places) to symbolically tell the story of the making of the White race and them being driven from Africa/Arabia into the Caucasus mountains.

 

Infact, if you read Chapter 3 of Genesis, they TELL YOU plainly that Adam isn't ONE person but represents a GROUP of people.
Also, the word "Adam" means BLUSHER.
One who shows blood.....a good description of most Caucasians.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Are you then saying there is no historical value in this stories?

 

Honestly, I'm not sure.

I can't say that the Bible is 100% false.
I believe there is SOME truth to it just like there is SOME falsehood; but since we can't decipher the two too accurately then I can't accept the book as a true "history" book and definitely not a Divine book.  

If there's ANY falsehood in it...that cancels out it being labeled "divine".

 

 

 

 

What is the Name of this "Greater Caucasian Civilization"?

 

I don't know if they had an actual name but the BRANCHES of the various Caucasians were known as Aryans, Akkadians, Teutons, Visgoths, ect..

 

 

 

 

 

Are Semites Considered Caucasians?

 

Some are, some aren't.
Semites......which is actually a made up term taken from the Bible for the supposed descendants of Shem...were the DESCENDANTS of the first Caucasians to came down from the Caucasus mountains and began roaming around and eventually settling down in the deserts of Arabia and Iran/Iraq.

The original ones were Caucasian but they became mixed with the original Black residents of the lands they conquered and settled into.

This is the primary reason why so many Jews and Arabs come in different colors today.

 

 

 


So when the bible says in Exodus 20:16  "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour" is that symbolic and has another meaning?

 

In my OPINION....no.
It's simply Moses instructing the Israelites (a branch of the Caucasian race) not to lie on a fellow Israelite during a trial when they are accused of wrong doing.

Many people think this commandment means "don't tell a lie" but it's actually SPECIFIC.

 

First, it...like the other commandments...aren't for ALL humans but specifically for the Israelites.

 

Second, when it says "neighbor" it's talking specifically of fellow Israelites, not the other races or ethnic groups they came into contact with.


Moses was one of the "law givers" of the Caucasian people.  He took some of ancient Egypt's laws and books and brought it up to them to help civilize them from their savage condition.

 

 

 

Do you know any of the true stories behind any of these allegories and or their real meaning?

 

I know a few.
The example I gave you about Adam, Eve, and the Garden is just one.


 

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2 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

Oh, look what I found!

A post actually RELEVANT to the subject of this thread!!!

 

 

 

 

frankster

 

Thanks for your questions......

 

 

I prefer to use Myth or Legends and Archetypes of the Human Experience

Allegory makes it almost fiction....as the place situation and events of the  narrative are now of no real social  or historical value


That's the PERCEPTION of what allegories are, but that's because most people don't know the actual definition OF the word "allegory".

They haven't been taught the key differences between "myth" "fable" "allegory" "legend" ect...so they think they all mean the same thing.

Allegories are stories that didn't happen but they are UNDERSTOOD (by those who are educated) as not being true but being symbolic.  Only those who are NOT educated (and that's most of the public today) believe that allegories are historically true or SHOULD be.

So are you saying that the Stories and Narratives we read in the bible has no basis in historical facts and or Reality?..I think bible stories are based in facts

It is my thought that they do have some basis in historical fact but that the authors took "poetic License" to make a point, teach a lesson or pass on Knowledge.

It akin to making a True To life Movie some parts are embellish to make the movie interesting catching or memorable.

 

 

2 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

 

 

Is there any of the bible stories whose allegorical and symbolic meaning you can share  or elucidated the true message behind the story?

 

I'll give you a good example....the story of Adam and Eve.

The Biblical story of Adam and Eve was an allegory that was taken from earlier sources that were already circulating in the Middle East BEFORE the Bible was put together.  Specifically in the Babylon region where the Jews resided at around 600 B.C. and put the Pentetauch together

 

The STORY of Adam and Hawawa (later translated as "Eve") is was actually an allegory devised by secret societies in Babylon (among other places) to symbolically tell the story of the making of the White race and them being driven from Africa/Arabia into the Caucasus mountains.

 

Infact, if you read Chapter 3 of Genesis, they TELL YOU plainly that Adam isn't ONE person but represents a GROUP of people.
Also, the word "Adam" means BLUSHER.
One who shows blood.....a good description of most Caucasians.

The Expulsion from Eden is God's way of weaning Man....Man is No longer a Brute but Sapient nor  just a Nomadic hunter/gatherer.

Are  Chinese people considered caucasian and do they blush?

I thought Adam meant Earth Ground or Dust, and that the Story is telling us that all human beings are One Family

 

 

2 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

Are you then saying there is no historical value in this stories?

 

Honestly, I'm not sure.

I can't say that the Bible is 100% false.
I believe there is SOME truth to it just like there is SOME falsehood; but since we can't decipher the two too accurately then I can't accept the book as a true "history" book and definitely not a Divine book.  

If there's ANY falsehood in it...that cancels out it being labeled "divine".

Thanks for the Honesty....Neither can I say the the bible is a 100% true

I know there is Truth in the bible.

The Bible is more than a history book

How would you recognize a "Divine Book"?

How do you know that what you label as "falsehood" is not just  you not understand the message or truths it imparting?

 

 

2 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

What is the Name of this "Greater Caucasian Civilization"?

 

I don't know if they had an actual name but the BRANCHES of the various Caucasians were known as Aryans, Akkadians, Teutons, Visgoths, ect..

The Mythical "Greater Caucasian Civilization" would have to be in my estimation the Aryans....The Aryans are and were Persians

 

 

2 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

 

Are Semites Considered Caucasians?

 

Some are, some aren't.
Semites......which is actually a made up term taken from the Bible for the supposed descendants of Shem...were the DESCENDANTS of the first Caucasians to came down from the Caucasus mountains and began roaming around and eventually settling down in the deserts of Arabia and Iran/Iraq.

The original ones were Caucasian but they became mixed with the original Black residents of the lands they conquered and settled into.

This is the primary reason why so many Jews and Arabs come in different colors today.

And who do these Caucasians Descend from?

 

 

2 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:


So when the bible says in Exodus 20:16  "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour" is that symbolic and has another meaning?

 

In my OPINION....no.
It's simply Moses instructing the Israelites (a branch of the Caucasian race) not to lie on a fellow Israelite during a trial when they are accused of wrong doing.

Many people think this commandment means "don't tell a lie" but it's actually SPECIFIC.

 

First, it...like the other commandments...aren't for ALL humans but specifically for the Israelites.

 

Second, when it says "neighbor" it's talking specifically of fellow Israelites, not the other races or ethnic groups they came into contact with.


Moses was one of the "law givers" of the Caucasian people.  He took some of ancient Egypt's laws and books and brought it up to them to help civilize them from their savage condition.

Neighbor means someone living close to you or with whom you associate, not necessarily a tribal affiliate.

Honesty is the basis of all  long term mutually beneficial relationship...

 

 

2 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

Do you know any of the true stories behind any of these allegories and or their real meaning?

 

I know a few.
The example I gave you about Adam, Eve, and the Garden is just one.


 

Cool

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frankster

 

 

 

Quote

 

So are you saying that the Stories and Narratives we read in the bible has no basis in historical facts and or Reality?..I think bible stories are based in facts

 

 

I thought I answered that question earlier.
It's not a YES or NO question but requires a depth of explanation.

 

The Bible is FULL of stories...some are allegories, some are legends, and some are straight up fabrications with NO meaning behind them while some are true.

But being TRUE and BASED ON TRUTH are two different things.

Most "good" LIES are "based on" truth to make them more believable.

 

 

 

 

Quote


It is my thought that they do have some basis in historical fact but that the authors took "poetic License" to make a point, teach a lesson or pass on Knowledge.

 

 

 

That may be acceptable when it comes to fictional writing or fables intended for children, but it's totally UNACCEPTABLE for books claiming Divine sources and origins.

The Divine doesn't LIE or give out false or inaccurate information.
PEOPLE DO....by whatever excuse they use to do it.

 

 

 

Quote

 

It akin to making a True To life Movie some parts are embellish to make the movie interesting catching or memorable.

 

 

The SUPREME BEING, Angels, Spirit Guides, and other Spiritual Beings on the higher Realms are MUCH MUCH smarter than any human on this planet.
They don't have to resort to LYING/FABRICATING just to make a story interesting or get Thier points across.
Many human beings are smart enough to do that....certainly Divine Beings can do the same without having to lie...lol.
 

 

 

 

Quote

 


Are  Chinese people considered caucasian and do they blush?

 

 

The ones mixed with Caucasians certainly do.

The original Mongoloid people of China were a medium to light brownish complexion.

 

14 Phenomenal Photos Reveal There Were Indeed Black Chinese People


Through out the centuries they were heavily mixed by various Caucasian tribes who invaded and settled in that area.

 

So just like you have a lot of AfroAmericans today who BLUSH because of the heavy amount of Caucasian ancestry we have, the same can be said of the Chinese of today.

 

 

 

 

 

Quote


I thought Adam meant Earth Ground or Dust, and that the Story is telling us that all human beings are One Family

 

That's the word ADAMAH.

ADAMAH means "dirt" or "ground" but the word in Hebrew for Adam is AH'DAM  I forgot exactly what the word "Ah" meant but I believe it means "of" and "Dam" means BLOOD/RED. It means either blood or red depending on how the word is used.

Adam is understood in ancient Hebrew to mean BLUSHER or RED ONE.

 

 

ginger haired old man – the heart thrills

"What are you  guys talking about over there??"

 

 

Which again..is a PERFECT description of Caucasians.
More so than "White".

 

 

 

 

 

Quote

 

Thanks for the Honesty....Neither can I say the the bible is a 100% true

I know there is Truth in the bible.

 

 

No problem.
I believe there's truth in the Bible too.
But there's SOME true in most lies.....lol.

If we're gonna call it a HOLY or DIVINE book then it needs to be ALL true...not just contain some.

If you're willing to settle for a book just because it has SOME truth in it.....just get a good DICTIONARY, lol.

 

 

 

Quote


How would you recognize a "Divine Book"?

 

The first identification factor would be there is NO CONTRADICTIONS in it.

We can argue all day whether something in the Bible is right or wrong or whether it happened or didn't happen; however if you see two stories or commandments that DIRECTLY CONTRADICT eachother...you know ONE of them has to be wrong.

So that right there cancel out the book ITSELF being Divine.




 

Quote

 

How do you know that what you label as "falsehood" is not just  you not understand the message or truths it imparting?

 


Good question.
In SOME cases you don't know.
There may be messages and saying that we have YET to discover as true.  However as I said earlier, when you see a CONTRADICTION....both can't be right.  One has to be wrong and that right there is proof that it's not Divine or even true.

 

 



 

Quote


The Mythical "Greater Caucasian Civilization" would have to be in my estimation the Aryans....The Aryans are and were Persians


 

The Persians (Farsim) were made up of many different tribes and a couple of races.
They were made up of the Aryan branch of the Caucasian race who invaded that area, but they were also made up of the ancient Black Elamites and other tribes who lived in that region for AGES before the Caucasians even existed.
 

Like the Arabs, the Persians are racially mixed but much of their CULTURE is Caucasian based.



 

Quote


And who do these Caucasians Descend from?


 

Us.
Black people.....but not the African Black but the Asian Black.

The Black people of Asia with the straight hair and thin nose.


DRAVIDIAN GIRLS IN INDIA | People, African people, Indigenous peoples

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36 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:


frankster

 

 

 

 

I thought I answered that question earlier.
It's not a YES or NO question but requires a depth of explanation.

 

The Bible is FULL of stories...some are allegories, some are legends, and some are straight up fabrications with NO meaning behind them while some are true.

But being TRUE and BASED ON TRUTH are two different things.

Most "good" LIES are "based on" truth to make them more believable.

True...

Being based on truth is different from being an allegory or being totally made up...

One now must decipher the Truth.

 

 

36 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

That may be acceptable when it comes to fictional writing or fables intended for children, but it's totally UNACCEPTABLE for books claiming Divine sources and origins.

Why is it Unacceptable  for divine sources to embellish?

Poetic license is not lying.

 

36 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:

The Divine doesn't LIE or give out false or inaccurate information.
PEOPLE DO....by whatever excuse they use to do it.

I never said the Divine lies.....

 

Genesis 3

 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

 

Did God lie?

did God say they would die?

Did the Serpent Lie?

 

 

36 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

The SUPREME BEING, Angels, Spirit Guides, and other Spiritual Beings on the higher Realms are MUCH MUCH smarter than any human on this planet.
They don't have to resort to LYING/FABRICATING just to make a story interesting or get Thier points across.
Many human beings are smart enough to do that....certainly Divine Beings can do the same without having to lie...lol.

The Divine has no need to lie....we lie to ourselves.

The Authors of the Holy Scriptures are Human.. Humans are frail and vain.

 

 

 

36 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

The ones mixed with Caucasians certainly do.

The original Mongoloid people of China were a medium to light brownish complexion.

 

14 Phenomenal Photos Reveal There Were Indeed Black Chinese People


Through out the centuries they were heavily mixed by various Caucasian tribes who invaded and settled in that area.

 

So just like you have a lot of AfroAmericans today who BLUSH because of the heavy amount of Caucasian ancestry we have, the same can be said of the Chinese of today.

Yet Most Chinese today are Pale in comparison to the Mongolians in your picture?

 

36 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

That's the word ADAMAH.

ADAMAH means "dirt" or "ground" but the word in Hebrew for Adam is AH'DAM  I forgot exactly what the word "Ah" meant but I believe it means "of" and "Dam" means BLOOD/RED. It means either blood or red depending on how the word is used.

Adam is understood in ancient Hebrew to mean BLUSHER or RED ONE.

 

 

ginger haired old man – the heart thrills

"What are you  guys talking about over there??"

 

 

Which again..is a PERFECT description of Caucasians.
More so than "White".

No the man in the picture above looks more light brown to pink than red ...to me

Nevertheless I see where you are going.

 

 

 

36 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

No problem.
I believe there's truth in the Bible too.
But there's SOME true in most lies.....lol.

If we're gonna call it a HOLY or DIVINE book then it needs to be ALL true...not just contain some

f you're willing to settle for a book just because it has SOME truth in it.....just get a good DICTIONARY, lol.b .

Again could it be  that the falsities you see are your own misunderstanding?

 

 

36 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:

 



 

 

 

 

 

 

36 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:

The first identification factor would be there is NO CONTRADICTIONS in it.

We can argue all day whether something in the Bible is right or wrong or whether it happened or didn't happen; however if you see two stories or commandments that DIRECTLY CONTRADICT eachother...you know ONE of them has to be wrong.

So that right there cancel out the book ITSELF being Divine.


Good question.
In SOME cases you don't know.
There may be messages and saying that we have YET to discover as true.  However as I said earlier, when you see a CONTRADICTION....both can't be right.  One has to be wrong and that right there is proof that it's not Divine or even true.

Provide your single most glaring example of this contradiction?

 

36 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

The Persians (Farsim) were made up of many different tribes and a couple of races.
They were made up of the Aryan branch of the Caucasian race who invaded that area, but they were also made up of the ancient Black Elamites and other tribes who lived in that region for AGES before the Caucasians even existed.
 

Like the Arabs, the Persians are racially mixed but much of their CULTURE is Caucasian based.



 


 

Us.
Black people.....but not the African Black but the Asian Black.

The Black people of Asia with the straight hair and thin nose.


DRAVIDIAN GIRLS IN INDIA | People, African people, Indigenous peoples

 

According Genetics and Archaeology: all modern human are descendants of Black Africans.

In other words humanity is African

 

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frankster

 

 

Quote

 


True...

Being based on truth is different from being an allegory or being totally made up...

One now must decipher the Truth.

 

 

Absolutely.

 

 

 

 

Quote


Why is it Unacceptable  for divine sources to embellish?

 

Because doing it usually involves lying.


According to the Cambridge Dictionary

Embellish:  to add or change some details of a story, usually to make it more interesting or exciting:

 

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/embellish

 

 

Embellish is just a fancy way of saying exaggerating or adding to something to make it more interesting.
It's basically adding false information.

Divinity doesn't do falsehood.

 

 

 

Quote

 

I never said the Divine lies.....

 

 

I never accused you of saying it.


However for the record, embellishing usually involves lying.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Quote

 


Did God lie?

did God say they would die?

Did the Serpent Lie?

 


First of all let's look at the first part of the story: The actual instructions and Who they allegedly came from.


In Genesis Chapter 2 we read:

16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.


According to this verse the "Lord God" said they would die THAT DAY.
Did they?
Or did they go on to live for hundreds of more years?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Quote



Did the Serpent lie?


Well, the Serpent said that if they ate the fruit their eyes would be opened.....were they?
Or did their sight remain the same?

You tell ME who lied and who told the truth according to the scriptures themselves....lol.


 

 

 

 

 

Quote

 

The Authors of the Holy Scriptures are Human.. Humans are frail and vain.

 

 

So why consider them "holy" if they were written by men subject to lie and error?

We shouldn't have to do "guess work" when trying to figure out Divine Messages.
If it's meant for us, it should be designed for us to clearly understand.

 

 

 

 

 

Quote


Again could it be  that the falsities you see are your own misunderstanding?

 

That could be the case but again....it would seem that if the Lord is the Author of these scriptures then they would be made so plain that there would be no room for error or misunderstanding.
Everyone should easily and clearly understand them.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Quote

 

Provide your single most glaring example of this contradiction?

 

 

This isn't the "most" glaring but it's just one example of many contradictions in the Bible


 

“… I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.” — Genesis 32:30

 

“No man hath seen God at any time…”– John 1:18

A clear contradiction.

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On 8/13/2022 at 11:44 PM, Pioneer1 said:

frankster

 

Absolutely

 

Because doing it usually involves lying.


According to the Cambridge Dictionary

Embellish:  to add or change some details of a story, usually to make it more interesting or exciting:

 

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/embellish

 

 

Embellish is just a fancy way of saying exaggerating or adding to something to make it more interesting.
It's basically adding false information.

Divinity doesn't do falsehood.

Exactly ....

The Divine sees more than we humans do and emphasize  that which is most important.

We cannot limit the Divinity by denying its capabilities..of what it does and doesn't do

Is the Divine limited or constrained by our concepts of Right and Wrong?.....I say NO

.

 

 

On 8/13/2022 at 11:44 PM, Pioneer1 said:

 

I never accused you of saying it.


However for the record, embellishing usually involves lying.

Embellishment and poetic license can both be achieve without lying.....but by placing emphasis and  some details and less on other facts of a story.

 

On 8/13/2022 at 11:44 PM, Pioneer1 said:


First of all let's look at the first part of the story: The actual instructions and Who they allegedly came from.


In Genesis Chapter 2 we read:

16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.


According to this verse the "Lord God" said they would die THAT DAY.
Did they?
Or did they go on to live for hundreds of more years?

 

 


Well, the Serpent said that if they ate the fruit their eyes would be opened.....were they?
Or did their sight remain the same?

You tell ME who lied and who told the truth according to the scriptures themselves....lol.

You should not answer a question with question.

You go first who if anyone of the Two lied? Serpent or God.

or is there another answer?

 

On 8/13/2022 at 11:44 PM, Pioneer1 said:

 

So why consider them "holy" if they were written by men subject to lie and error?

We shouldn't have to do "guess work" when trying to figure out Divine Messages.
If it's meant for us, it should be designed for us to clearly understand.

What does Holy mean?

Man is One Agent of the Divine....and all Agents color or influence the Message of the Divine

The part meant for you are Clear....and simple as in every first step

That part that is unclear to you, as you progress must be work out....as with all things in life.

 

 

On 8/13/2022 at 11:44 PM, Pioneer1 said:

 

That could be the case but again....it would seem that if the Lord is the Author of these scriptures then they would be made so plain that there would be no room for error or misunderstanding.
Everyone should easily and clearly understand them.

So you are telling the divine what is best?!?...that's rhetorical.

 

On 8/13/2022 at 11:44 PM, Pioneer1 said:

This isn't the "most" glaring but it's just one example of many contradictions in the Bible


 

“… I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.” — Genesis 32:30

 

“No man hath seen God at any time…”– John 1:18

A clear contradiction.

The following are literalistic interpretation....No Contradiction

Genesis 32:24 says it was a man

And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.

Genesis 32:1 agrees with Hosea 12:4  that is was an Angel.

Jacob mistook an Angel for God....it is common man is vain frail and do err.

 

Spiritual Interpretation

Angels are extensions of the Divine/God and act in The Capacity of God

Genesis 1:26

God said, Let us make man in our image.

 

Sacred Meaning

Man must wrestle/struggle with God and Man/Earth to secure his Blessings in Life...

 

 

 

 

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frankster

 

 

 

 

Quote

 


Exactly ....

The Divine sees more than we humans do and emphasize  that which is most important.

 

 

Totally agree.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Quote

 


We cannot limit the Divinity by denying its capabilities..of what it does and doesn't do

Is the Divine limited or constrained by our concepts of Right and Wrong?.....I say NO

 


I'm a little confused by your statement.
So are you suggesting that the Divine DOES do falsehood along with truth?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Quote


Embellishment and poetic license can both be achieve without lying.....but by placing emphasis and  some details and less on other facts of a story.

 

Absolutely.
However when it comes to the Bible, that's not MY assertion nor is it the assertion of most Biblical scholars.
Whether you call it embellishment, poetic license, or out right fabrications...we all agree that many of the stories in it simply are not true.

WHO authored those stories are up for debate, but their actuality...not as much.

 

 

 

 

 

Quote


You should not answer a question with question.

 

You don't ANSWER a question with a question but sometimes you must RESPOND to a question with a question to gain more understanding of the nature of it in order to answer properly.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Quote

 


You go first who if anyone of the Two lied? Serpent or God.

or is there another answer?

 

 

Yes, there IS another answer.
Most likely NEITHER, because the story was most likely an ALLEGORY that didn't take place.

 

Secondly, the Bible doesn't say "God" spoke to them, but rather the "Lord God".
The Hebrew has Yahweh


Even in the English translation, there is a clear difference between "God" and "Lord God".

 

 

 

 

 

Quote

 

What does Holy mean?

 

 

 

According to Webster's Dictionary:

Definition of holy
1: exalted or worthy of complete devotion as one perfect in goodness and righteousness
2: DIVINE
3: devoted entirely to the deity or the work of the deity
4a: having a divine quality
b: venerated as or as if sacred

 

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/holy 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Quote

 

Man is One Agent of the Divine....and all Agents color or influence the Message of the Divine

 

 

Only if the Divine wishes this to be so.


If the Divine wishes to impart the clear unadulterated truth to you with no spin or seasoning, that is entirely possible as well.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Quote

 

The part meant for you are Clear....and simple as in every first step

 

 

Agreed.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Quote


So you are telling the divine what is best?!?...that's rhetorical.

 

I know, however that would be a real question some would have for those who dare question the need for preachers, priests, and "holy" books.

 

There is often a difference between a message that is unclear and hard to understand and one that is out right FALSE.

If Adam was told he would die THAT DAY and lived hundreds more years after that....clearly that statement was false.
No amount of spin or claiming "a day with the lord is a thousand years" is gonna make it true.

He simply DID NOT DIE that day.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Quote

 


The following are literalistic interpretation....No Contradiction

Genesis 32:24 says it was a man

And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.

Genesis 32:1 agrees with Hosea 12:4  that is was an Angel.

 


The only way that could NOT be a contradiction is if Angels were men.

 

 

 

Quote

 

Spiritual Interpretation

Angels are extensions of the Divine/God and act in The Capacity of God

Genesis 1:26

God said, Let us make man in our image.

 

Sacred Meaning

Man must wrestle/struggle with God and Man/Earth to secure his Blessings in Life...

 


That's YOUR spiritual interpretation.
That's YOUR sacred meaning.

However for it to OFFICIALLY be considered as such, others would have to generally come to the same conclusion.

This is one of the problems with relying on scriptures to determine morality.  So much of it is unclear and ambiguous there is too much room for error.


Based on the research I've done so far, the story of Jacob allegedly wrestling with an Angel is another allegory that symbolizes a man who rebels against the Divine.

An Angel is a member of Divinity.
So if you are fighting and opposing Divinity and righteousness...whose side are you REALLY on and who's backing you up?


Satan?

 

 

Another point I'd like to make is.....
If you recall, after wrestling with the Angel Jacob receives the name "Israel" which literally means "he fights God"

So if you look at it, the "Children of Israel" could literally be called "Children of he who fights God"

Not a very good name.


There is evidence that the Canaanites actually gave them that name (Children of Israel) because they likely saw them as desert invaders and evil people who invaded their land and cities, murdering and destroying what which THEY found holy and sacred.

For the Canaanites, perhaps the "Children of Israel" was another term for "children of rebellion".
 

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4 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

frankster

Totally agree.
I'm a little confused by your statement.
So are you suggesting that the Divine DOES do falsehood along with truth?

I am saying you are I cannot and should not limit the Divine...

 

 

4 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

Absolutely.
However when it comes to the Bible, that's not MY assertion nor is it the assertion of most Biblical scholars.
Whether you call it embellishment, poetic license, or out right fabrications...we all agree that many of the stories in it simply are not true.

WHO authored those stories are up for debate, but their actuality...not as much.

I think they are legends yet to be proven.

Name the most Glaring Fabrications that you know of?

 

 

4 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

You don't ANSWER a question with a question but sometimes you must RESPOND to a question with a question to gain more understanding of the nature of it in order to answer properly.

Yes, there IS another answer.
Most likely NEITHER, because the story was most likely an ALLEGORY that didn't take place.

Secondly, the Bible doesn't say "God" spoke to them, but rather the "Lord God".
The Hebrew has Yahweh

Even in the English translation, there is a clear difference between "God" and "Lord God".

True enough.

 

4 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

According to Webster's Dictionary:

Definition of holy
1: exalted or worthy of complete devotion as one perfect in goodness and righteousness
2: DIVINE
3: devoted entirely to the deity or the work of the deity
4a: having a divine quality
b: venerated as or as if sacred

 

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/holy 

In short Holy means  worthy of devotion or of  the Divine.....Can you name something in existence  not of the Divine?

The Bible is about the Divine....it tells/teaches us about ourselves.

Written by the Divinely inspired Men.....Men are vain frail and do err

 

 

4 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

Only if the Divine wishes this to be so.


If the Divine wishes to impart the clear unadulterated truth to you with no spin or seasoning, that is entirely possible as well.

No....you must be clear.

The Divine is always Clear....St Paul struggles with himself an unclear vessel.

Romans 7:15

For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

 

4 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

Agreed.

 

I know, however that would be a real question some would have for those who dare question the need for preachers, priests, and "holy" books.

 

There is often a difference between a message that is unclear and hard to understand and one that is out right FALSE.

If Adam was told he would die THAT DAY and lived hundreds more years after that....clearly that statement was false.
No amount of spin or claiming "a day with the lord is a thousand years" is gonna make it true.

He simply DID NOT DIE that day.

So now you are saying The Divine lied?

 

4 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:


The only way that could NOT be a contradiction is if Angels were men.


That's YOUR spiritual interpretation.
That's YOUR sacred meaning.

However for it to OFFICIALLY be considered as such, others would have to generally come to the same conclusion.

This is one of the problems with relying on scriptures to determine morality.  So much of it is unclear and ambiguous there is too much room for error.

A Translation issue.

Aramaic  Scriptures the language Jesus allegedly spoke says they were Angels and Angels are often in scripture mistaken as men....

It is ambiguous to the unclear

To find the truth One must struggle with it

 

As an aside their is an Angel named Phanuel whose named is sometime translated as Peniel.

Lastly EL is often at the end of most if not all Angels name....EL mean God

 

Translations from Aramaic

Peshitta Holy Bible Translated
And Yaquuv called the name of that country, Penuyel, because, “I saw an Angel face to face and my life is saved.”

Lamsa Bible
And Jacob called the name of that place Peniel; for be said, I have seen an angel face to face, and my life is preserved.

https://biblehub.com/parallel/genesis/32-30.htm

 

4 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

 


Based on the research I've done so far, the story of Jacob allegedly wrestling with an Angel is another allegory that symbolizes a man who rebels against the Divine.

An Angel is a member of Divinity.
So if you are fighting and opposing Divinity and righteousness...whose side are you REALLY on and who's backing you up?


Satan?

Jacob struggles with the Divine and is blessed...go figure.

Jacob overcome his lower self and is renamed/reborn a new man - esoteric meaning

Satan is of the Divine....The Opposition - The Adversary

The Divine reside in Man....

 

4 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

 

Another point I'd like to make is.....
If you recall, after wrestling with the Angel Jacob receives the name "Israel" which literally means "he fights God"

So if you look at it, the "Children of Israel" could literally be called "Children of he who fights God"

Not a very good name.

Very Good name when one realizes that to fight is to struggle or wrestle with an issue....is to find a solution/Salvation - Savior

 

The Narrative

He stole his brother's birthright who now approaches with four hundred men...Jacob Has a dark night of the soul moment - Esau is now Satan - The Adversary The Angel of death or the Avenging Angel destruction and ruin approaches

 

4 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:


There is evidence that the Canaanites actually gave them that name (Children of Israel) because they likely saw them as desert invaders and evil people who invaded their land and cities, murdering and destroying what which THEY found holy and sacred.

For the Canaanites, perhaps the "Children of Israel" was another term for "children of rebellion".
 

That could very well be.

IsRa means....Journey at Night

El means God

Journey at night with God....perhaps a dream or simply to meditate.

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On 8/12/2022 at 1:25 PM, frankster said:

How do you know that what you label as "falsehood" is not just  you not understand the message or truths it imparting?

You are posting a lot of jewels, but this is my favourite. 

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frankster

 

 

Quote

 

I am saying you are I cannot and should not limit the Divine...

 

 

The Divine includes MANY Beings including The SUPREME BEING.

The SUPREME BEING has no limit, but as for many of the other Beings...I can't say if They do or don't.

 

However let me ask you directly, do you believe The Divine has ever communicated something false to human beings?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Quote


I think they are legends yet to be proven.

 

You "think"....key word.
You don't KNOW that they are true and only have to be proven as such, you just BELIEVE they are.
I'd even dare to say you HOPE they are.


But at least you admit that they haven't found proof.

This means your mind is open for correction.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Quote


Name the most Glaring Fabrications that you know of?

 

I can't think of "the most" glaring fabrication at the moment however there are so many in the Bible, where do I start?

 

Let's see, how about Genesis 3:20

The scripture says Adam's wife was named EVE because she was the mother of all living?

 

FALSE

 

There were animals and vegetation alive before she was made  so she couldn't have been the "mother of all living".

 

PERIOD.

 

 

 

 

 

Quote

 

In short Holy means  worthy of devotion or of  the Divine...

 

 

Well, that's limiting the definition but I understand.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Quote

 

..Can you name something in existence  not of the Divine?

 


The telephone, carpet, swords, piano, ect...
It's not very hard to come up with examples.

 

 



 

Quote

 


 

The Bible is about the Divine....it tells/teaches us about ourselves.

 

 

No sir.
Neither I nor you are mentioned in that Bible.

 

 

 

 

 

Quote


Written by the Divinely inspired Men.....Men are vain frail and do err

 

Do you believe King James and the men he authorized to write the current KJV Bible was "divinely inspired"????

What about the Greeks and Romans who wrote the script the European Bible was based on????

Were Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John inspired by the same "Source" even though they offered contradicting accounts???

 


And IF (because I don't believe it) the Divine trusted men who are frail and erroneous to write a book for Them and it ends up full of lies, what would that tell you about Their judgement for entrusting such men with something so important to humanity?

 

 

 

 

Quote

 

No....you must be clear.

The Divine is always Clear....St Paul struggles with himself an unclear vessel.

Romans 7:15

For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

 

 

 

OFCOURSE Paul struggled with clarity, he was an AGENT of the Roman Empire.

That's why he admitted that he changes himself for his audience:

In 1st Corinthians Chapter 9

 

19For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.

20And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;

21To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.

22To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Quote

 


So now you are saying The Divine lied?

 

 

No.
I'm saying which ever man/men wrote this fabrication, lied.

 

 

 

 

Quote

 


As an aside their is an Angel named Phanuel whose named is sometime translated as Peniel.

Lastly EL is often at the end of most if not all Angels name...

 

 

That's the NEW TESTAMENT explanation.

In the Old Testament you don't find Angels with an "el" ending their name.
Infact, if my memory serves me correctly the Angels aren't named in the Old Testament.

 

And before you go there.....
The Old Testament does NOT refer to Gabriel or Michael as "angels"

 

 

 

 

 

Quote

 

Jacob overcome his lower self and is renamed/reborn a new man - esoteric meaning

 

 


This is found no where in the Bible.
It's philosophical pondering.

 

 

 

 

 

Quote

 


Very Good name when one realizes that to fight is to struggle or wrestle with an issue....is to find a solution/Salvation - Savior

 

The Narrative

He stole his brother's birthright who now approaches with four hundred men...Jacob Has a dark night of the soul moment - Esau is now Satan - The Adversary The Angel of death or the Avenging Angel destruction and ruin approaches

 


More philosophical ponderings to explain the unexplainable or contradictory scriptures.

Anything but admit they simply are wrong and can't be "righted".

 

 

 

 

 

 

Quote

 

That could very well be.

IsRa means....Journey at Night

El means God

Journey at night with God....perhaps a dream or simply to meditate.

 


LOL....sir please stop.

Is-ra-el  Means HE  FIGHTS/STRUGGLES (with) EL/GOD

 

That's the literal meaning.


No need to spin it or "philosophize" it to fit some weird belief system not grounded in scripture or linguistics.

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15 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:


frankster

 

 

 

The Divine includes MANY Beings including The SUPREME BEING.

The SUPREME BEING has no limit, but as for many of the other Beings...I can't say if They do or don't.

True...

 

15 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

However let me ask you directly, do you believe The Divine has ever communicated something false to human beings?

The Divine can do anything and everything.....

Die is a verb present tense  - dead is adjective/noun past tense

Take the modern term "dead man walking " what a miracle - go figure.

 

15 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

You "think"....key word.
You don't KNOW that they are true and only have to be proven as such, you just BELIEVE they are.
I'd even dare to say you HOPE they are.


But at least you admit that they haven't found proof.

This means your mind is open for correction.

Yes I think.

 

 

15 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

I can't think of "the most" glaring fabrication at the moment however there are so many in the Bible, where do I start?

 

Let's see, how about Genesis 3:20

The scripture says Adam's wife was named EVE because she was the mother of all living?

 

FALSE

 

There were animals and vegetation alive before she was made  so she couldn't have been the "mother of all living".

 

PERIOD.

Who named Eve....Adam - man is frail and vain and do err...

Do you think Adam thought Eve was his mother?

Those words of Adam must be wrestle with to discern its meanings.

 

 

15 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

 

Well, that's limiting the definition but I understand.

 


The telephone, carpet, swords, piano, ect...
It's not very hard to come up with examples.

The Divine is omnipresent

All things in existence is made by The Divine of the same Stuff - Atoms

 

15 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

 

No sir.
Neither I nor you are mentioned in that Bible.

Neither are we mention in our books of health, biology, psychology and law but they all tell/teach  us about ourselves.

 

15 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

Do you believe King James and the men he authorized to write the current KJV Bible was "divinely inspired"????

What about the Greeks and Romans who wrote the script the European Bible was based on????

Were Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John inspired by the same "Source" even though they offered contradicting accounts???

 


And IF (because I don't believe it) the Divine trusted men who are frail and erroneous to write a book for Them and it ends up full of lies, what would that tell you about Their judgement for entrusting such men with something so important to humanity?

Of course they were Inspired.....

The differences you see is owing to one or all of the following ..Perspective, Perception and Personal Prejudice (opinion or goals)

The Divine is Most Wise .... 

 

15 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

OFCOURSE Paul struggled with clarity, he was an AGENT of the Roman Empire.

That's why he admitted that he changes himself for his audience:

In 1st Corinthians Chapter 9

 

19For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.

20And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;

21To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.

22To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

 

 

The Divine have been known to work with ....Harlots and all kinds of Man

The Divine is most Wise....Pauline Christianity has brung functional unity and Civilization to great parts of  Europe.

 

15 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

No.
I'm saying which ever man/men wrote this fabrication, lied.

Men can and do lie...but even so The Divine will will still be done

 

15 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

That's the NEW TESTAMENT explanation.

In the Old Testament you don't find Angels with an "el" ending their name.
Infact, if my memory serves me correctly the Angels aren't named in the Old Testament.

 

And before you go there.....
The Old Testament does NOT refer to Gabriel or Michael as "angels"

Daniel 8:16

And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.

 

 

 

15 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

 


This is found no where in the Bible.
It's philosophical pondering.

I did say esoteric meaning.....and yes it can be consider philosophical pondering.

 

15 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

 


More philosophical ponderings to explain the unexplainable or contradictory scriptures.

Anything but admit they simply are wrong and can't be "righted".

where is the contradiction?

According to the Narrative in the Bible Jacob did steal Esau's birthright and Esau was approaching with four hundred men...the rest is not philosophy the rest is common sense

 

15 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:


LOL....sir please stop.

Is-ra-el  Means HE  FIGHTS/STRUGGLES (with) EL/GOD

 

That's the literal meaning.


No need to spin it or "philosophize" it to fit some weird belief system not grounded in scripture or linguistics.

I never refuted that meaning 

I only tried to reveal to you that word can have more than one meaning...and sometimes the other meanings are revealing

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frankster

 

 

Quote


The Divine can do anything and everything.....
Die is a verb present tense  - dead is adjective/noun past tense
Take the modern term "dead man walking " what a miracle - go figure.


??

 

Not sure what that was in response to however allow me to ask you the question again:

Do you believe The Divine has ever communicated something false to human beings?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Quote

 

 

Who named Eve....Adam - man is frail and vain and do err...

 

 

It doesn't matter who named her that, the point is it's in the Bible and it's FALSE.

It's false information.

 

 

 


 

Quote

 


Do you think Adam thought Eve was his mother?

Those words of Adam must be wrestle with to discern its meanings.

 

 

Maybe YOU have to wrestle with them, but I've overcome that struggle a LONG time ago when I finally accepted that the Bible was NOT a Divine book but a script written from the minds of men.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Quote

 


The Divine is omnipresent

All things in existence is made by The Divine of the same Stuff - Atoms

 

 

Just because The Divine is Present, doesn't mean They brought everything into existence.

Furthermore, atoms are the building blocks (that we know so far) of much of the PHYSICAL REALITY.
But there is a much much more vast SPIRITUAL REALITY and we have no clue as to what That is made of.

 

You don't even know what material your own thoughts are made of.

 

 

 

 

 

Quote


Neither are we mention in our books of health, biology, psychology and law but they all tell/teach  us about ourselves.

 

And just like the Bible, they too are books that often consist of both true and false information.

But unlike the Bible, most of us accept that they often contain false and incorrect information.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Quote

 

The differences you see is owing to one or all of the following ..Perspective, Perception and Personal Prejudice (opinion or goals)

The Divine is Most Wise .... 

 

 

Naaaw buddy, don't put that on "The Divine"...lol.
 

The Divine didn't write the 4 Gospels.
They were written by MEN and those men were given the identities of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.

 


Now in Matthew 1:16 it says:

…and Jacob the father of Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom Jesus was born, who is called Christ.



But in Luke 3:23 it says:

Jesus, when he began his ministry, was about thirty years of age, being the son (as was supposed) of Joseph, the son of Heli,

 

 


One so-called "inspired" scripture claims Jacob was the father of Joseph and another so-called "inspired" scripture claims he was Heli.

 

Who is right, because BOTH of them can't be?

That's not an "opinion" or "perspective" but a straight up contradiction.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Quote


.Pauline Christianity has brung functional unity and Civilization to great parts of  Europe.

 

Yeah, and that was it's purpose...to help unite Europeans.
Not save souls or bring peace and justice to the world; but further civilize and empower White folks through a sense of unity.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Quote

 

And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.

 

 

 

Ok, and WHERE is Gabriel mentioned as an Angel in this scripture????

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Quote

 


I never refuted that meaning -Because it's the TRUTH, lol.


I only tried to reveal to you that word can have more than one meaning...and sometimes the other meanings are revealing

 

 

There is no evidence that "Israel" has more than one meaning.
All of the evidence we have point to it only having ONE meaning.

Your explanations of what the word "really" means on an "esoteric level" is mere fanciful thinking and speculation.
 

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13 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:


frankster
??

 

Not sure what that was in response to however allow me to ask you the question again:

Do you believe The Divine has ever communicated something false to human beings?

 

Ok so let me bring you back up to speed....that which is in red is your words....

 

 

Pioneer1 said the following

First of all let's look at the first part of the story: The actual instructions and Who they allegedly came from.


In Genesis Chapter 2 we read:

16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.


According to this verse the "Lord God" said they would die THAT DAY.
Did they?
Or did they go on to live for hundreds of more years

 

However let me ask you directly, do you believe The Divine has ever communicated something false to human beings?

 

to which I responded as follows:

The Divine can do anything and everything.....
Die is a verb present tense  - dead is adjective/noun past tense
Take the modern term "dead man walking " what a miracle - go figure.

 

 

Hope that helps, if you need further reminding feel free to let me know and i will do my best to help 

 

 

 

 

13 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

It doesn't matter who named her that, the point is it's in the Bible and it's FALSE.

It's false information.

Most things in the bible "matters" if one is to find Truth.

My Neighbor son name is Jesus....does that make him our deliver,saviour or rescuer.

 

 

13 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

Maybe YOU have to wrestle with them, but I've overcome that struggle a LONG time ago when I finally accepted that the Bible was NOT a Divine book but a script written from the minds of men.

You are entitled to your opinions.....As am I

For me the Bible is manual on how to live.....to me that is divine.

 

13 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

 

 

13 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

Just because The Divine is Present, doesn't mean They brought everything into existence.

Furthermore, atoms are the building blocks (that we know so far) of much of the PHYSICAL REALITY.
But there is a much much more vast SPIRITUAL REALITY and we have no clue as to what That is made of.

 

You don't even know what material your own thoughts are made of.

John 1:3

All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made.

That is good enough...

 

13 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

And just like the Bible, they too are books that often consist of both true and false information.

But unlike the Bible, most of us accept that they often contain false and incorrect information.

The bible has been around for several thousand years.....whilst they mostly only last a few decades at most before having to be corrected and made current

Both hold Truths, the bible's truth has withstood the test of time....whilst the other books bought us the modern age.

They Teach us how to live.

 

13 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

Naaaw buddy, don't put that on "The Divine"...lol.
 

The Divine didn't write the 4 Gospels.
They were written by MEN and those men were given the identities of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.

Did I say they were written by the Divine?

 

13 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

 


Now in Matthew 1:16 it says:

…and Jacob the father of Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom Jesus was born, who is called Christ.



But in Luke 3:23 it says:

Jesus, when he began his ministry, was about thirty years of age, being the son (as was supposed) of Joseph, the son of Heli,

 

 


One so-called "inspired" scripture claims Jacob was the father of Joseph and another so-called "inspired" scripture claims he was Heli.

 

Who is right, because BOTH of them can't be?

That's not an "opinion" or "perspective" but a straight up contradiction.

Levirate Marriage wherein a brother is obliged to marry his deceased brother's widow and raise up children in the name of the dead brother.

Jacob was Joseph biological Father

Heli was Joseph legal father

 

13 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

Yeah, and that was it's purpose...to help unite Europeans.
Not save souls or bring peace and justice to the world; but further civilize and empower White folks through a sense of unity.

The Bible purpose is to show us humans how to live a Righteous Life

 

13 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

Ok, and WHERE is Gabriel mentioned as an Angel in this scripture????

Luke 1:26

Six months after Elizabeth had become pregnant, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a city in Galilee.

 

13 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

 

There is no evidence that "Israel" has more than one meaning.
All of the evidence we have point to it only having ONE meaning.

Your explanations of what the word "really" means on an "esoteric level" is mere fanciful thinking and speculation.
 

Wrestle with God

A man seeing God..

A journey by night with God

Do a little digging if you cannot find anything ....I  rest on this issue.

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frankster

 

 

 

Quote


Hope that helps, if you need further reminding feel free to let me know and i will do my best to help 

 

Thank you for reminding me of our earlier interaction.
Unfortunately however, for purposes of clarity I have to again repeat my question:
Do you believe The Divine has ever communicated something false to human beings?

 

I'm not asking you CAN The Divine do it, I'm asking you HAS The Divine ever done it....to your knowledge?

I'd appreciate a clear and concise affirmative or negative to the above in your next response.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Quote


Most things in the bible "matters" if one is to find Truth.
My Neighbor son name is Jesus....does that make him our deliver,saviour or rescuer.

 

 

I didn't say that to dismiss all the other information the Bible offers us.
I'm simply saying that what "matters" is what's relevant.

 

We're having a conversation about whether the Bible contains falsehood so things that are "irrelevant" to that subject doesn't matter as much TO that subject of the discussion, that's all.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Quote


You are entitled to your opinions.....As am I
For me the Bible is manual on how to live.....to me that is divine.

 

 

I agree with the former and respect the latter!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Quote


John 1:3
All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made.
That is good enough...

 

It's good enough for someone who isn't as concerned about the story actually being TRUE as they are of some "message" it may contain for the reader.

But I believe in Truth.
That is the first litmus test any information I receive must pass before I accept it.

 


So when we read 1 Corinthians 14:33

"For God is not the author of confusion"

 

According to THAT scripture, confusion didn't come from God.

So is it true that "all" things were made by Him?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Quote


The bible has been around for several thousand years.....whilst they only last a few decades at most before having to be corrected and made current

 

That's not accurate.
The Bible hasn't been around several thousand years.
Infact, the Bible (any Bible you choose from) hasn't even been around 2000 years.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Quote


Both hold Truths, the bible's truth has withstood the test of time....whilst the other books bought us the modern age.

 

 

ALL truths withstand the test of time.
Truth is truth no matter what it is found and it doesn't change unless the circumstances it refers to changes.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Quote


Levirate Marriage wherein a brother is obliged to marry his deceased brother's widow and raise up children in the name of the dead brother.
Jacob was Joseph biological Father
Heli was Joseph legal father

 

 

Understood. Now......

Can you show me the scripture in the Bible that states this was the case?
....that Joseph's father Jacob passed away and Heli took over?

 

I don't remember reading it and I'd like to know where you got it from.

 

 

 

 

 

Quote


The Bible purpose is to show us humans how to live a Righteous Life

 

 

That's your OPINION of it's purpose.
Others believe and insist it has another purpose.

 

Constantine and the Roman Empire used the Bible to unite the wild warring tribes of Europe

 

Slave masters used the Bible as a purpose to keep the slaves docile while being oppressed.


Differerent people had different purposes for the Bible.

 

 

 

 

 

Quote


Luke 1:26
Six months after Elizabeth had become pregnant, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a city in Galilee.

 

 

 Nice try but...I said THIS SCRIPTURE....not the New Testament.

I made it clear earlier in our conversation that the OLD TESTAMENT didn't name Gabriel and Michael as angels.  That concept came LATER after the Jews were sent to Jerusalem when the New Testament starts.

 

Much of the theology of modern Judaism and even much of Christianity came from period when the Jews were in Babylon and learn a lot from the Persians who were Zoroastrians.

 

 

 

 

Quote



Wrestle with God

A man seeing God..

A journey by night with God

Do a little digging if you cannot find anything ....I  rest on this issue.

 

 

You should have given it a rest a few posts back, lol.

 

The definition of the name "Israel" is pretty clear.
That aspect of the argument has a positive period behind it.

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51 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:

frankster

 

 

 

 

Thank you for reminding me of our earlier interaction.
Unfortunately however, for purposes of clarity I have to again repeat my question:
Do you believe The Divine has ever communicated something false to human beings?

 

I'm not asking you CAN The Divine do it, I'm asking you HAS The Divine ever done it....to your knowledge?

I'd appreciate a clear and concise affirmative or negative to the above in your next response.

First let us realize they are lying Spirits that The Divine may  work with...one such evil spirit is Lucifer-the morning star or light bringer

No ...not to my knowledge or belief.

 

51 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

I didn't say that to dismiss all the other information the Bible offers us.
I'm simply saying that what "matters" is what's relevant.

 

We're having a conversation about whether the Bible contains falsehood so things that are "irrelevant" to that subject doesn't matter as much TO that subject of the discussion, that's all.  

Yes...I have given you my thoughts on the matters.

Most of what is contradictory or false to you ... I have shown why they are not to me.

 

 

 

51 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

I agree with the former and respect the latter!

 

It's good enough for someone who isn't as concerned about the story actually being TRUE as they are of some "message" it may contain for the reader.

But I believe in Truth.
That is the first litmus test any information I receive must pass before I accept it.

I too believe in Truth... and only accept truth

 

51 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:

 


So when we read 1 Corinthians 14:33

"For God is not the author of confusion"

 

According to THAT scripture, confusion didn't come from God.

So is it true that "all" things were made by Him?

Yes All things were made by The Divine....Good and evil

 

 

51 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

 

That's not accurate.
The Bible hasn't been around several thousand years.
Infact, the Bible (any Bible you choose from) hasn't even been around 2000 years.

Dead Sea Scrolls have been put at about 2000 yrs.

Nag hammadi is believe to be even older.

The Source Material from which they are taken in Egypt and Sumer(Babylon and Akkad)....some source material over 6,000 - 30,000 yrs old - basically EVERLASTING, IMMEMORIAL

 

 

51 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

 

ALL truths withstand the test of time.
Truth is truth no matter what it is found and it doesn't change unless the circumstances it refers to changes.

True

 

51 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

Understood. Now......

Can you show me the scripture in the Bible that states this was the case?
....that Joseph's father Jacob passed away and Heli took over?

 

I don't remember reading it and I'd like to know where you got it from.

No....I cannot that information is in not in the Bible.

That info can be gleamed from culture and tradition of the times.

 

Deuteronomy 25 :5-6

 “If brothers dwell together, and one of them dies and has no son, the widow of the dead man shall not be married to a stranger outside the family; her husband’s brother shall go in to her, take her as his wife, and perform the duty of a husband’s brother to her. And it shall be that the firstborn son which she bears will succeed to the name of his dead brother, that his name may not be blotted out of Israel. 

 

51 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

That's your OPINION of it's purpose.
Others believe and insist it has another purpose.

 

Constantine and the Roman Empire used the Bible to unite the wild warring tribes of Europe

 

Slave masters used the Bible as a purpose to keep the slaves docile while being oppressed.


Differerent people had different purposes for the Bible.

The purpose of a hammer is to hammer things.....but you can also use it for other things - Repurposing is real

 

51 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

 Nice try but...I said THIS SCRIPTURE....not the New Testament.

I made it clear earlier in our conversation that the OLD TESTAMENT didn't name Gabriel and Michael as angels.  That concept came LATER after the Jews were sent to Jerusalem when the New Testament starts.

The Scripture is comprised of  many books.

None is title Old or New Testament

Maybe Constantine decided to categorizes some as new and others as old....but I know different

 

51 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

Much of the theology of modern Judaism and even much of Christianity came from period when the Jews were in Babylon and learn a lot from the Persians who were Zoroastrians.

Judaism was started in Egypt and develop in Canaan/Palestine.

 

51 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

You should have given it a rest a few posts back, lol.

 

The definition of the name "Israel" is pretty clear.
That aspect of the argument has a positive period behind it.

If one is unwilling to do any work...i rest

 

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frankster

 

 

 

Quote

 

First let us realize they are lying Spirits that The Divine may  work with...one such evil spirit is Lucifer-the morning star or light bringer

 

 

Lucifer was a made-up term that was put in the English translation to deceive the readers.

 

If you read the original Hebrew the name used was "Helel" and it was the name of a king or ruler of a region of ancient Canaan.

Early Christians purposely changed and mis-interpreted the name (like they did a lot of the Bible) into this "Lucifer" business and then proceeded to make an entire persona surrounding him when it was really an ancient king.

 

 

 

 

 

Quote

 

 

No ...not to my knowledge or belief.

 

 

Ok, thank you for FINALLY answering the question...lol

 

 

 

 

 

Quote

 

Most of what is contradictory or false to you ... I have shown why they are not to me.

 

 

 

There's no such thing as "false to you" or "truth to me".
Either something is TRUE or it's FALSE.

If you don't know, then say you don't know or you're not sure but there is no "true to me".


If it's proven to be false....it's false.
You can ACCEPT falsehood and BELIEVE IN falsehood if you like, but that's not going to change falsehood to truth.

 

 

 

 

 

Quote

 

Yes All things were made by The Divine....Good and evil

 

 

Your scriptures say that God is not the author of confusion.

 

Should I take that as He didn't make confusion?
Or does it have another meaning?

 

 

 

 

Quote

 


Dead Sea Scrolls have been put at about 2000 yrs.

Nag hammadi is believe to be even older.

 

 

 

Those aren't the Bible.
Those are scriptures that contain some of the same stories the Bible contains, but they aren't the Bible.

 

 

 

 

 

Quote


The Source Material from which they are taken in Egypt and Sumer(Babylon and Akkad)....some source material over 6,000 - 30,000 yrs old - basically EVERLASTING, IMMEMORIAL

 

"Source material" isn't the same as the book itself.
 

YOU are made up of atoms and molecules.
They are your "source material"...but you aren't as old as atoms and molecules itself.

As I said earlier, the Bible is COMPILED of earlier scripture that had been circulating around the Middle East for centuries.
That's old knowledge.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Quote


No....I cannot that information is in not in 
That info can be gleamed from culture and tradition of the times.

 

So basically you SPECULATED that this was the reason those two different scriptures gave different accounts on who Joseph's father really was.
 

The most obvious answer is that it's a contradiction, but you don't want to accept or believe that so your mind forces you to come up with a way to explain it so that it makes sense to you.

This is what I mean when people accept the Bible as some "Divine" book.
Once you go down that road you have to accept it at 100%.
Even in the face of an obvious contradiction you cannot accept it as such but must wait and hope for a "deeper understanding" of it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Quote

 


The Scripture is comprised of  many books.

None is title Old or New Testament

Maybe Constantine decided to categorizes some as new and others as old....but I know different

 

 

Nor sure, but at any rate...the Old Testament doesn't call Michael or Gabriel "angels".
The only time you read of them having this title is in the New Testament.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Quote


Judaism was started in Egypt and develop in Canaan/Palestine.

 

Judaism wasn't started in Egypt, it was started in Babylon...the same place the Jews came from.

It may contain CERTAIN RITUALS and SCRIPTS that were also found in ancient Egypt (and there's a good reason for that) but Judaism itself wasn't founded in Egypt or Palestine.
 

Judaism didn't come from Moses by the way.....
What Moses taught wasn't Judaism and even when you read the Old Testament you don't find the term "Judaism" in it.  It came from Babylon and is a mixture of some of Moses' teachings with some Babylonian beliefs and some Persian/Zoroastrian teachings.

Isn't it funny how these "inspired" religions and scriptures seem to grow and expand as the culture and sophistication of humans grow and expands in the region????
 

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17 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:


frankster

Lucifer was a made-up term that was put in the English translation to deceive the readers.

 

If you read the original Hebrew the name used was "Helel" and it was the name of a king or ruler of a region of ancient Canaan.

Early Christians purposely changed and mis-interpreted the name (like they did a lot of the Bible) into this "Lucifer" business and then proceeded to make an entire persona surrounding him when it was really an ancient king.

So it's not all Allegories after all

So this Lucifer/Helel is real.....?

 

 

17 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

Ok, thank you for FINALLY answering the question...lol

 

 

There's no such thing as "false to you" or "truth to me".
Either something is TRUE or it's FALSE.

If you don't know, then say you don't know or you're not sure but there is no "true to me".


If it's proven to be false....it's false.
You can ACCEPT falsehood and BELIEVE IN falsehood if you like, but that's not going to change falsehood to truth.

The Info I have is enough proof to me as to the reality of much of the stories in the bible being based in fact..poetic license is taken to teach a moral and or Spiritual lesson...

Where is the prove of these falsities you speak of?

 

 

17 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

Your scriptures say that God is not the author of confusion.

 

Should I take that as He didn't make confusion?
Or does it have another meaning?

God Made everything...

Confusion is a human Condition of Mind.

To disobey the Laws of The Divine  or work against the will of God is to be Confused.

Example: The Law of Gravity....you fall and hurt yourself - is Gravity at fault?

 

 

17 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

Those aren't the Bible.
Those are scriptures that contain some of the same stories the Bible contains, but they aren't the Bible.

They are Scriptures nevertheless.

The Bible is but a small fraction of the Scriptures....selected by inspired men to forward their own prejudices .

Example: Kidnappers and Enslavers of Men thought they could use the Scriptures to Justify the enslavement of a people, those same people found the route to Liberty and freedom in the Words of the self same Scriptures selected to keep them in bondage

 

Romans 8:28

And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

 

 

17 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

"Source material" isn't the same as the book itself.
 

YOU are made up of atoms and molecules.
They are your "source material"...but you aren't as old as atoms and molecules itself.

As I said earlier, the Bible is COMPILED of earlier scripture that had been circulating around the Middle East for centuries.
That's old knowledge.

The Source is often times clearer than the  Conclusion/End use.

When you transplant or recycle Parts or Organs.....Those individual parts or organs still retain their original age and used condition(memory) even if in a new machinery or body

 

Then we agree....the Scriptures are old knowledge taken by compilers to curate their bible.....many books/Scriptures  was not included in The Bible.

 

 

17 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

So basically you SPECULATED that this was the reason those two different scriptures gave different accounts on who Joseph's father really was.

With no information to the Contrary and knowing that that is the Culture of the Time and place among those people.....yes I accept that as the Reason.

Not a speculation but rather a Theory or Hypothesis.

 

 

17 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

The most obvious answer is that it's a contradiction, but you don't want to accept or believe that so your mind forces you to come up with a way to explain it so that it makes sense to you.

The obvious can be misleading...."there is nothing more deceptive than the obvious fact".

It is also obvious that ships sink into the ocean as the travel further out to sea...and railway tracks meet in horizon

 

 

17 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:


This is what I mean when people accept the Bible as some "Divine" book.
Once you go down that road you have to accept it at 100%.
Even in the face of an obvious contradiction you cannot accept it as such but must wait and hope for a "deeper understanding" of it.

I do not accept it all  in literal sense, but I refuse to throw the babe out with the bath water....meaning there is truth and goodness in it.

 

 

17 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

Nor sure, but at any rate...the Old Testament doesn't call Michael or Gabriel "angels".
The only time you read of them having this title is in the New Testament.

Life often does not gives us sureties....

The Scriptures call Man God, Angels God and Man Angel ...why - One of the reason is because we all look alike.

The  New Testament is Scripture.

 

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frankster

 

 

 

Quote


So it's not all Allegories after all

So this Lucifer/Helel is real.....?

 


I never said ALL of the Bible was allegory.


It contains many stories, some are allegorical, some are lies, some are truth.

My thing is....since we don't have a clear legend or key to understanding CLEARLY which is which....why place our faith in such a confusing book?

 

But to answer your question...........

 

Well first of all let's back up and get an understanding when we're talking about HISTORY.

I criticize the Bible a lot but I'm actually critical to a certain extent of MOST historical claims whether they be religious or non-religious.

Why?


Because I've learned not to put too much trust in things that I DIDN'T DOCUMENT MYSELF by my own observation or the observation of S/someone trust.

New information about certain things in history are constantly coming out every day.  Some of it is true, some of it is false, and some of it we just have no clue as to it's validity one way or the other.
Because of this I can't put too much faith in anything written by the hands of men.

 

Don't get me wrong.....

I'm not saying I don't believe ANY history or believe ALL of history, but it's more like I don't accept it 100% or reject it 100% if you understand what I'm saying.

Some things I believe more than other based on evidence and the preponderance of it, but my mind is open for new evidence and proof also.


Now if you understand my position, having said that......

 

Based on various sources I believe a ruler of ancient Canaan named Helel was real.
Not only does the Hebrew Bible speak of him but other sources do.
He's not the only ruler there were others mentioned in the Bible as well as other sources.

 

 

Lucifer is a TITLE.
A Roman title.
Did it belong to one particular being or did several beings wear that title?
I have no idea.
But Lucifer simply means "light bearer".

 

It is my SPECULATION that the Roman "Lucifer" is related to the Greek "Prometheus" who allegedly took fire/knowledge (light) to mankind against the will of the "gods" and was punished.

 

This too was an allegory and the Romans probably got it from the Greeks.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Quote


The Info I have is enough proof to me as to the reality of much of the stories in the bible being based in fact..poetic license is taken to teach a moral and or Spiritual lesson...


And that's your right to do so if you wish.
As for me, if you want ME to accept a book as being of God and Divine then it needs to be 100% truth with absolutely NO falsehood in it.

It can obviously contain things that I don't understand, but if I see BLATANT falsehood....it's a wrap.


I'll regulate it to the shelf with the other fictional books.

 

 

 

 

 

Quote


Where is the prove of these falsities you speak of?

 

 

I've given you several falsehood in the Bible in the form of contradictions but you didn't accept them as false and tried to rationalize them.  No doubt if I give you several or even 100 more (and I can) you'd do the same thing.

 

Your mind is made up to accept the Bible right now.
At this point we're just having a nice dialog, lol.

 

 

 

 

Quote

 


They are Scriptures nevertheless.

The Bible is but a small fraction of the Scriptures....selected by inspired men to forward their own prejudices .

 

 

You're saying the "The Bible" is a small fraction of the Scriptures as if you're speaking of the entire book.

Are you saying that there is a larger book somewhere in which the entire Bible is found "inside" other scriptures in which it was taken from?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Quote


The Source is often times clearer than the  Conclusion/End use.

 

I agree.
Often times it is because you're closer to the truth (if there is any in that Source) and closer to the true intention of the Author and the message They were conveying.

 

 

 

 

 


 

Quote


Then we agree....the Scriptures are old knowledge taken by compilers to curate their bible.....many books/Scriptures  was not included in The Bible.

 

 

I agree that MUCH of the Old and New Testaments were taken from older sources and stories circulating around the Middle East at that time and compiled into a new book we now call "The Bible.

Much of the Old Testament was compiled in Babylon.
Much of the New Testament was compiled in Rome.

However I won't call it "old knowledge" or knowlege period.
It's INFORMATION....stories....that could be true OR false.
In order for it to be "knowledge" it first has to be  TRUE.

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Pioneer1 posted the following in red.

 

 

Judaism was started in Egypt and develop in Canaan/Palestine.

 

Judaism wasn't started in Egypt, it was started in Babylon...the same place the Jews came from.

It may contain CERTAIN RITUALS and SCRIPTS that were also found in ancient Egypt (and there's a good reason for that) but Judaism itself wasn't founded in Egypt or Palestine.
 

Judaism didn't come from Moses by the way.....
What Moses taught wasn't Judaism and even when you read the Old Testament you don't find the term "Judaism" in it.  It came from Babylon and is a mixture of some of Moses' teachings with some Babylonian beliefs and some Persian/Zoroastrian teachings.

Isn't it funny how these "inspired" religions and scriptures seem to grow and expand as the culture and sophistication of humans grow and expands in the region????

 

So if Moses is not the founder of Judaism....what religion were they practicing soon after Exodus to Babylonian Captivity?

The Spent approximately 400 yrs vs 70 yrs - in my father's life time - grandpa's time

Approximately 20, 000. went into Babylonian Captivity...About 50,000. came out

Egypt less than 100 went in - over 500,000. came out

 

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frankster
 

 

 

Quote

 


With no information to the Contrary and knowing that that is the Culture of the Time and place among those people.....yes I accept that as the Reason.

Not a speculation but rather a Theory or Hypothesis.

 

 

Theories ARE speculation based on evidence.

But atleast you acknowledge that your explanation may not be true.
 

 

 

 

 

Quote

 

The obvious can be misleading...."there is nothing more deceptive than the obvious fact".

 

 

CAN be. 
"Can" is the key word in your statement.
Doesn't mean obvious always or even usually is.

 

Most of the time "obvious" is just what it appears to be....as it is, lol.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Quote

 

 

I do not accept it all  in literal sense, but I refuse to throw the babe out with the bath water....meaning there is truth and goodness in it.

 

 

Ofcourse there is some good in it and some truth in it.

I still love reading the book of Proverbs and as I say I love to read the Bible in it's Hebrew form; but I still recognize it for that it is -a man made book and not Holy or Divine or perfect because it still contains errors and falsehood.


Even if you don't acknowledge that the ORIGINAL Bible contained errors and falsehood....surely you have to admit the ENGLISH TRANSLATION of it does!
No sense in even arguing with someone over scriptures read in the English version.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Quote


The Scriptures call Man God, Angels God and Man Angel ...why - One of the reason is because we all look alike.

 

Yeah...and another reason is because those scriptures are erroneous and plain wrong because they were written by men trying to deceive you.

Like I said, the OLD TESTAMENT doesn't refer to Michael or Gabriel as "angels".

 

Michael is referred to as a "Sar" in the Hebrew script which is a type of ruler or governor but it's translated in English as "prince".

Angels are called "Malak" in the Hebrew script.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Quote


So if Moses is not the founder of Judaism....what religion were they practicing soon after Exodus to Babylonian Captivity?

 

Ofcourse he wasn't the founder of Judaism.
He didn't write the books of the Old Testament either, although they are called the "books of Moses".

How could he have written them and they actually REFER TO HIM AND HIS DEATH????


In Deuteronomy 34 we read:

" 10.Since that time, no prophet has risen in Israel like Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face— 11.no prophet who did all the signs and wonders that the LORD sent Moses to do in the land of Egypt to Pharaoh and to all his officials and all his land,"


What did he do, record his own death in the book before dying?

And "since that time" is obviously talking about the PAST which means that book was written at a MUCH LATER DATE.

Come on.
This thing was put together much later by some group with an agenda.
 



Much of Judaism is based on a book called the TALMUD and the Talmud is divided in two parts:  Babylonian and Palestinian.


Moses wasn't around to influence either part of the Talmud.

Judaism INCORPORATES some of the teachings of Moses and it's far different from what Moses taught.

Infact, much of the Pentateuch or "Books of Moses" were put together in Babylon as well as I just alluded to earlier and that's where they got much of their stories.

 

You ask what religion they were practicing prior to Babylonian Capitivity?


I'm not sure but I have two answers:

 

Answer #1
According to the Bible they followed the teachings of Moses.
I'm not sure it was given an actual name, but according to the Bible they did follow the teachings of Moses and the law right up to their captivity.

I don't believe this by the way...but you do so I offer it as an explanation.
 

 

Answer #2
As I said, I don't believe the captivity ever took place.
I believe Jews actually CAME FROM Babylon.

I believe...based on personal research from various historians....that a group of PERSIANS IN BABYLON took some of the teachings of Zoroasterism and mixed it with some of the teachings of Babylonian religions and came up with a NEW religion called Judaism and proceeded to write and literally MAKE UP their own past to justify why they went to Palestine to build a temple.

 

I can back that up with a few sources btw.....

 

 

 

 

 

Quote

 


The Spent approximately 400 yrs vs 70 yrs - in my father's life time - grandpa's time

Approximately 20, 000. went into Babylonian Captivity...About 50,000. came out

Egypt less than 100 went in - over 500,000. came out

 


As I said before, I don't believe any of this actually happened.
I believe they made it up.

 

The ancient Egyptians and Babylonians in which those stories were based in show no records of Jews being held captive in those regions.
The people of those areas TODAY believe in it simply because most of them are Muslim, Christian, and Jewish so it's part of their religious scripture to believe in it.
But as far as ancient writings and hieroglyphs....no record.

 

Could it have happened?
Yes.
But I simply don't believe it and neither do most scholars.


 

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2 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

frankster


I never said ALL of the Bible was allegory.


It contains many stories, some are allegorical, some are lies, some are truth.

My thing is....since we don't have a clear legend or key to understanding CLEARLY which is which....why place our faith in such a confusing book?

It is not confusing if you understand.....There is a legend and a key

 

2 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

But to answer your question...........

 

Well first of all let's back up and get an understanding when we're talking about HISTORY.

I criticize the Bible a lot but I'm actually critical to a certain extent of MOST historical claims whether they be religious or non-religious.

Why?


Because I've learned not to put too much trust in things that I DIDN'T DOCUMENT MYSELF by my own observation or the observation of S/someone trust.

New information about certain things in history are constantly coming out every day.  Some of it is true, some of it is false, and some of it we just have no clue as to it's validity one way or the other.
Because of this I can't put too much faith in anything written by the hands of men.

Then what do you put your trust in?

 

 

2 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

Don't get me wrong.....

I'm not saying I don't believe ANY history or believe ALL of history, but it's more like I don't accept it 100% or reject it 100% if you understand what I'm saying.

Some things I believe more than other based on evidence and the preponderance of it, but my mind is open for new evidence and proof also.

 

 

2 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:


Now if you understand my position, having said that......

 

Based on various sources I believe a ruler of ancient Canaan named Helel was real.
Not only does the Hebrew Bible speak of him but other sources do.
He's not the only ruler there were others mentioned in the Bible as well as other sources.

How does knowing  about a  king in the distant past  named Helel help you in this life right now?

 

 

2 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

Lucifer is a TITLE.
A Roman title.
Did it belong to one particular being or did several beings wear that title?
I have no idea.
But Lucifer simply means "light bearer".

 

It is my SPECULATION that the Roman "Lucifer" is related to the Greek "Prometheus" who allegedly took fire/knowledge (light) to mankind against the will of the "gods" and was punished.

 

This too was an allegory and the Romans probably got it from the Greeks.

Lucifer has another meaning which is shared with Jesus Christ The messiah - The "Morning Star" - AKHET -Horus/Heru

 

2 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:


And that's your right to do so if you wish.
As for me, if you want ME to accept a book as being of God and Divine then it needs to be 100% truth with absolutely NO falsehood in it.

It can obviously contain things that I don't understand, but if I see BLATANT falsehood....it's a wrap.


I'll regulate it to the shelf with the other fictional books.

It is your Right and your loss.

 

2 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

I've given you several falsehood in the Bible in the form of contradictions but you didn't accept them as false and tried to rationalize them.  No doubt if I give you several or even 100 more (and I can) you'd do the same thing.

 

Your mind is made up to accept the Bible right now.
At this point we're just having a nice dialog, lol.

The Truth is you have made up your mind....."Truth is stranger than fiction and that is because fiction has to stick to possibilities"

I love dialog that's entertaining and informative.

 

 

2 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

You're saying the "The Bible" is a small fraction of the Scriptures as if you're speaking of the entire book.

Are you saying that there is a larger book somewhere in which the entire Bible is found "inside" other scriptures in which it was taken from?

Not a entire book.....several books

 

2 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

I agree.
Often times it is because you're closer to the truth (if there is any in that Source) and closer to the true intention of the Author and the message They were conveying.

True...

 

 

2 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

I agree that MUCH of the Old and New Testaments were taken from older sources and stories circulating around the Middle East at that time and compiled into a new book we now call "The Bible.

Much of the Old Testament was compiled in Babylon.
Much of the New Testament was compiled in Rome.

Most in  opinion are sourced from Ancient Egypt  and pre christian Egypt  for both Old and New Testament  respectively.

 

 

2 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:


However I won't call it "old knowledge" or knowlege period.
It's INFORMATION....stories....that could be true OR false.
In order for it to be "knowledge" it first has to be  TRUE.

Information is pure data...

Knowledge  is understanding that Data.

 

How do you know what True?

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17 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:


frankster

Theories ARE speculation based on evidence.

But atleast you acknowledge that your explanation may not be true.

Based on Evidence....based in and on historical facts.

 

L

17 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

CAN be. 
"Can" is the key word in your statement.
Doesn't mean obvious always or even usually is.

 

Most of the time "obvious" is just what it appears to be....as it is, lol.

Until it's not.

 

17 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

fcourse there is some good in it and some truth in it.

I still love reading the book of Proverbs and as I say I love to read the Bible in it's Hebrew form; but I still recognize it for that it is -a man made book and not Holy or Divine or perfect because it still contains errors and falsehood.

Never said the bible was perfect....and Man is the agent of the Divine

You see errors...".To the pure all things are pure"

 

 

17 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

Even if you don't acknowledge that the ORIGINAL Bible contained errors and falsehood....surely you have to admit the ENGLISH TRANSLATION of it does!
No sense in even arguing with someone over scriptures read in the English version.

"Seek and ye shall find"...you looking for errors then you will find errors - the error is in your eye.

 

17 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

Yeah...and another reason is because those scriptures are erroneous and plain wrong because they were written by men trying to deceive you.

Like I said, the OLD TESTAMENT doesn't refer to Michael or Gabriel as "angels".

 

Michael is referred to as a "Sar" in the Hebrew script which is a type of ruler or governor but it's translated in English as "prince".

Angels are called "Malak" in the Hebrew script.

The Scripture is one comprised of many books.

The bible never mentioned the house hold cat  in neither Old or New testament does that mean the never existed?

 

17 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

Ofcourse he wasn't the founder of Judaism.
He didn't write the books of the Old Testament either, although they are called the "books of Moses".

How could he have written them and they actually REFER TO HIM AND HIS DEATH????


In Deuteronomy 34 we read:

" 10.Since that time, no prophet has risen in Israel like Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face— 11.no prophet who did all the signs and wonders that the LORD sent Moses to do in the land of Egypt to Pharaoh and to all his officials and all his land,"


What did he do, record his own death in the book before dying?

And "since that time" is obviously talking about the PAST which means that book was written at a MUCH LATER DATE.

Come on.
This thing was put together much later by some group with an agenda.

Who  coined the phrase "Ask not what your country can do for You"....?

Often time you have scribes who write such things and credit  he who provides the coin.

 

17 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:


Much of Judaism is based on a book called the TALMUD and the Talmud is divided in two parts:  Babylonian and Palestinian.


Moses wasn't around to influence either part of the Talmud.

Judaism INCORPORATES some of the teachings of Moses and it's far different from what Moses taught.

Infact, much of the Pentateuch or "Books of Moses" were put together in Babylon as well as I just alluded to earlier and that's where they got much of their stories.

 

You ask what religion they were practicing prior to Babylonian Capitivity?


I'm not sure but I have two answers:

 

Answer #1
According to the Bible they followed the teachings of Moses.
I'm not sure it was given an actual name, but according to the Bible they did follow the teachings of Moses and the law right up to their captivity.

I don't believe this by the way...but you do so I offer it as an explanation.
 

 

Answer #2
As I said, I don't believe the captivity ever took place.
I believe Jews actually CAME FROM Babylon.

I believe...based on personal research from various historians....that a group of PERSIANS IN BABYLON took some of the teachings of Zoroasterism and mixed it with some of the teachings of Babylonian religions and came up with a NEW religion called Judaism and proceeded to write and literally MAKE UP their own past to justify why they went to Palestine to build a temple.

 

I can back that up with a few sources btw.....

Provide your source....i love to learn.

 

Approximately 25% of Israel's population went into Babylonian Captivity...they then came home and rewrote the religious practice of those who were free the entire time .....the newly free brought back the foreign religion of their captors and the locals accepted  their enemies religion..

Whilst In Egypt the entire Population went in a mere 100 and lived in Egypt for 400 yrs growing to 500,000 ,,,,but somehow  20,000,  less than quarter the population spending 70 yrs  has more effect on hebrew and religion culture?????

 

17 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:


As I said before, I don't believe any of this actually happened.
I believe they made it up.

 

The ancient Egyptians and Babylonians in which those stories were based in show no records of Jews being held captive in those regions.
The people of those areas TODAY believe in it simply because most of them are Muslim, Christian, and Jewish so it's part of their religious scripture to believe in it.
But as far as ancient writings and hieroglyphs....no record.

 

Could it have happened?
Yes.
But I simply don't believe it and neither do most scholars.

As I have always maintain...the are based in and on facts however poetic license was used for the greater good.

 

17 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:


 

 

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frankster
 

 

 

 

Quote


It is not confusing if you understand.

 

 

I agree!
It's no longer confusing to one who knows the TRUTH about the Bible and it's origins.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Quote


Then what do you put your trust in?

 

Fact that I can verify.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Quote


How does knowing  about a  king in the distant past  named Helel help you in this life right now?

 

About as much as knowing about a man who built an ark to save himself and his family from a flood and ended up getting drunk and naked and cursing his grandson, helps me in this life right now....lol.

 

 

 

 

 

Quote


Lucifer has another meaning which is shared with Jesus Christ The messiah - The "Morning Star" - AKHET -Horus/Heru

 

 

Yet again, this is where Christians and have gotten it wrond because of the MIS-translations of the Hebrew language.

Lucifer son of "the morning" it a totally corrupt translation of the original Hebrew which should read:

Helel son of Sahar

 

Helel was a rule in ancient Kena'an (Canaan) and likely was a follower of the Canaanite Deity "Sahar" which is why he is called SON of Sahar.
He may have been Sahar's actual son or it may have been an honorary title given to him for accepting the Deity Sahar as his Benefactor.

 

 

 

 

 

Quote

 


Information is pure data...

Knowledge  is understanding that Data.

 

 

Wrong

Information is just a bunch of words communicated.
They could be true or false.

 

Data on the other hand is facts and assumed facts.
The assumed facts could be false as well but atleast they have been held to a higher standard than just general informal information passed along.

 

 

 

 

 

Quote


How do you know what True?

 

 

By verifying it.

I hope that question was rhetorical btw...
Because if your religion has you questioning the nature of truth itself, it's already a wrap...lol.

 

 

 

 

 

Quote


Based on Evidence....based in and on historical facts.

 

 

Just because a story/theory is "based on" fact, doesn't mean the story/theory ITSELF is a fact.

As I said before, some of the "best" lies are based on facts and truths.
That's what makes them so effective.

 

 

 

 

 

Quote


Never said the bible was perfect....and Man is the agent of the Divine

You see errors...".To the pure all things are pure"

 

 

And to the naive, inexperiened, and down right foolish...all things are legitimate.
Why?
Because they don't know any better.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Quote


The Scripture is one comprised of many books.

The bible never mentioned the house hold cat  in neither Old or New testament does that mean the never existed?

 

 

What does this have to do with Michael and Gabriel NOT being angels that I pointed out to you in the Old Testament?
Did that bit of information I pointed out to you mean ANYTHING to you or did you just brush past it looking for another comeback to get me with?

Do you actually SEEK TRUTH or are you just looking to defend your beliefs?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Quote


Approximately 25% of Israel's population went into Babylonian Captivity...they then came home and rewrote the religious practice of those who were free the entire time .....the newly free brought back the foreign religion of their captors and the locals accepted  their enemies religion..

Whilst In Egypt the entire Population went in a mere 100 and lived in Egypt for 400 yrs growing to 500,000 ,,,,but somehow  20,000,  less than quarter the population spending 70 yrs  has more effect on hebrew and religion culture?????

 

 

You're assuming these things actually took place.
I don't.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Quote


As I have always maintain...the are based in and on facts however poetic license was used for the greater good.

 

The fact that you would even entertain continuing to believe in a book that "may" have lied or used some form of deception allegedly for some "greater good" is a matter of concern.

I ask you again....
Do you really want to know the TRUTH or are you just concerned with defending your beliefs from what you consider to be an attack?

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9 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

frankster
 

I agree!
It's no longer confusing to one who knows the TRUTH about the Bible and it's origins.

True...

 

9 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

Fact that I can verify.

how do you verify a fact?

 

9 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

About as much as knowing about a man who built an ark to save himself and his family from a flood and ended up getting drunk and naked and cursing his grandson, helps me in this life right now....lol.

The Noah and the building of the Ark is about Trust and Faith when the whole World seems to be against you.

How does Helel help you?

 

9 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

Yet again, this is where Christians and have gotten it wrond because of the MIS-translations of the Hebrew language.

Lucifer son of "the morning" it a totally corrupt translation of the original Hebrew which should read:

Helel son of Sahar

 

Helel was a rule in ancient Kena'an (Canaan) and likely was a follower of the Canaanite Deity "Sahar" which is why he is called SON of Sahar.
He may have been Sahar's actual son or it may have been an honorary title given to him for accepting the Deity Sahar as his Benefactor.

What evidence of this do you have......cannot the same doubts you have of scripture be said about this Helel son of sofar?

 

9 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

Wrong

Information is just a bunch of words communicated.
They could be true or false.

 

Data on the other hand is facts and assumed facts.
The assumed facts could be false as well but atleast they have been held to a higher standard than just general informal information passed along.

That's what I said....you using different words to arrive at the same conclusion.

 

9 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

By verifying it.

I hope that question was rhetorical btw...
Because if your religion has you questioning the nature of truth itself, it's already a wrap...lol.

All Truths are but half Truth.....it is the fundamental nature of truth

 

9 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

Just because a story/theory is "based on" fact, doesn't mean the story/theory ITSELF is a fact.

As I said before, some of the "best" lies are based on facts and truths.
That's what makes them so effective.

If the story is based on facts....then there is Truth - seek it.

 

9 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

And to the naive, inexperiened, and down right foolish...all things are legitimate.
Why?
Because they don't know any better.

Exactly...the naive and inexperienced do not know that  it is foolish.

Noah was thought to be naive inexperience and most of all foolish.

 

9 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

What does this have to do with Michael and Gabriel NOT being angels that I pointed out to you in the Old Testament?
Did that bit of information I pointed out to you mean ANYTHING to you or did you just brush past it looking for another comeback to get me with?

Do you actually SEEK TRUTH or are you just looking to defend your beliefs?

The scriptures are books ....Old and new is a artificial separation.

The bible is a compilation of those books..

 

9 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

You're assuming these things actually took place.
I don't.

Do you think the Babylonian Captivity/conquest  took place?

If not then your idea that the scriptures were influenced by Babylon is False

 

9 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

The fact that you would even entertain continuing to believe in a book that "may" have lied or used some form of deception allegedly for some "greater good" is a matter of concern.

You yourself stated that our books of Health Biology Law and Psychology  have falsities and errors in them....yet we use them still.

 

 

9 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

I ask you again....
Do you really want to know the TRUTH or are you just concerned with defending your beliefs from what you consider to be an attack?

I only seek the truth

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On 8/10/2022 at 8:26 PM, Pioneer1 said:

Apparently most of you don't know what an ALLEGORY is.

An ALLEGORY is basically a symbolic story.
A story used to conceal certain historical events and facts that weren't meant for the public to know.
It's not the same as a myth or a fable, it has a specific purpose and that's to conceal truths from the general public and put it in symbolism so that only those in certain societies with the proper "keys" of understanding can figure out the true meaning behind the message/story.

The Bible is full of ALLEGORIES.

The Bible is a book made up not only of many different books stitched together over thousands of years by different authors and authorities, but even it's most basic section....The Pentateuch....is a collection of allegories that were stitched together by Jewish scholars in Babylon around 500 B.C.

The stories of Adam and Eve as well as the story of Noah's Ark are ALLEGORIES that the Jewish scholars took from earlier Akadian and Persian civilizations.

They know they are ALLEGORIES that are devised to cover up the truth behind the story.

The Adam & Eve story is so obviously allegory; it amazes me that Biblical literalists would believe it verbatim. These 2 are created, and then experience the transition to farming! All in one lifetime! We now know that Homo sapiens is 300k yrs old, while farming is at most 12k years old. Humans had to "leave the garden" where food was available for the taking, to be forced to "earn their bread sweating and stooping over the earth." Yes, they began to farm because environmental changes reduced the wild food available.

 

They learned to distinguish between good and evil... this means that it became possible, with agriculture, for those so inclined to accumulate wealth at the expense of their fellows. That's what we call "evil".

 

Jesus created a good allegory which is generally misinterpreted. He cast out the demons from a person, inserting them into a herd of pigs which then were drowned. Pigs, which observant Jews didn't eat, represented the Hellenized culture which had come to dominate Judah. The Romans. Those unclean sorts cast into the water, like Romans expelled back into the sea. And he called the demons "Legion". That makes this "parable" very obvious, yet never in Church did they teach us that Jesus was talking about the Romans.

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In attempting to find esoteric meaning in every word of scripture, we ignore that it was not all concocted as an elaborate Kabalah to be deciphered. Much of it is simply a retelling of history by what we consider to be "primitive" minds.

 

Most myth, among any people, is based on fact. In the telling there is much fantasy, but at the core lie real events. For example, there WAS a flood, or several of them. accompanying the melting of the glaciers in the early Holocene and the filling of the Black Sea with waters of the Mediterranean. The Sumerian Gilgamesh tale speaks of such flooding, and obviously the Noah tale is of a kind.

 

Even today, someone can narrowly avoid an accident and proclaim that "God intervened". Well, the accident avoidance really occurred. The divine intervention is perhaps an invention. But there is a core of truth in the story: an accident was indeed avoided.

 

I've had atheists nearly have nervous breakdowns over this notion that there is truth in myths, especially Biblical myths, which atheists especially abhor, but I do not state this as a Christian or believer, but as an anthropologist. There is an Israeli archaeologist who has examined every one of the events of Exodus, the plagues and so on, and found scientific explanations for all of it. Yes, it rained frogs, the water turned red, and a northern bit of the Red Sea went briefly dry, allowing people to walk across. Ah but the Biblical narrative doesn't speak of volcanic activity or earthquakes or algae blooms... So is the whole thing a fantasy? The logical conclusion is that it is in fact based on real events. But as with all myth, humans are quick to inject a lot of supernaturalism, often to explain things they can't explain.

 

If we read that an ancient person was "possessed by demons", do we believe or dismiss the assertion? What we know now is that person likely was schizophrenic or with some other mental disorder. So something there was real. Was it "demons"? Probably not.

 

In the future perhaps people will relate tales of an orange ogre who tried to eat the Constitution. Is that real? Well, not literally, but still, yes it did happen. The ogre was named Trump.

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3 hours ago, Michel Montvert said:

attempting to find esoteric meaning in every word of scripture, we ignore that it was not all concocted as an elaborate Kabalah to be deciphered. Much of it is simply a retelling of history by what we consider to be "primitive" minds.

In the beginning was the Word.

 

Which is related to Logos.

 

In addition I believe rabbinical scholars do indeed study the Word to find hidden meanings.

 

Words have an exoteric and esoteric meaning.

 

Those primitive minds created monuments to the Sun/God that are still standing. 

 

Whole some may think the occult is is all nonsense, I am not one of those people.

 

https://interestingliterature.com/2021/06/john-in-the-beginning-was-the-word-with-god-analysis-meaning/

 

To breathe life into something, inspiration. In the Bible being able to name something gives you power of it.

 

Which puts slave names in a different light. Words have power. It's how we choose leaders and most everything else.

 

I believe that the Bible, the Torah, and the Vedas are Sun/star worship. And while I am not conversant in any of these sacred text. I do believe reading then literally is to miss the point. With the appropriate corresponding modalities the above texts come to life.

 

I am presenting a different viewpoint that I am neither prepared to defend not debate.

 

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frankster



I think we've conversed long enough that I'll stop using the quotes and go back to MY normal format of posting people's quotes in red.

 

 

 

 

how do you verify a fact?

 

Through direct observation or a reputable source.

 

 

 

 


The Noah and the building of the Ark is about Trust and Faith when the whole World seems to be against you.

 

Perhaps this is what YOU get out of it.
I got disappointment from it because I realized it was most likely plagiarized from earlier sources.

I don't get trust and faith from falsified documents.

 

 

 

 

How does Helel help you?

 

Knowing about him and his existence adds to my wealth of knowledge and information.

 

 

 

 

 

 

What evidence of this do you have.....


Look it up for yourself in the Hebrew transliteration of the text.
Isaiah ch.14 vs 12

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/isaiah/14.htm

 

It says HELEL BEN SAHAR ("ben" means "son of").


It says NOTHING about some character named "Lucifer" in the Hebrew text.  
That term was FALSELY attributed in the translation

 

 

 

 

 

 


.cannot the same doubts you have of scripture be said about this Helel son of sofar?

 

No.
Although I haven't verified EITHER....I trust the Hebrew transliteration more than the English translation because like we discussed earlier...it's closer to the original text.

 

 

 

 

 

 


That's what I said....you using different words to arrive at the same conclusion.

 

No.
You said information is "pure data".
Information isn't "pure" anything...it's a bunch of words and numbers.

Data is FACTS

 

Put another way.....
All data is information but not all information is data.

 

 

 

 

 


All Truths are but half Truth.....it is the fundamental nature of truth

 

I don't understand this, could you explain it?

 

 

 

 

 

 

If the story is based on facts....then there is Truth - seek it.

 

Absolutely.
However so as not to waste time seeking truth, don't go looking in places you KNOW contain falsehood....like the Bible.
Look elsewhere to places or people with a better reputation for disseminating facts, lol.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Do you think the Babylonian Captivity/conquest  took place?

 

I'm on the fence about that and simply am not sure.

I believe the CONQUEST of Babylon by the Persians took place.
But I'm not sure about the captivity of the Israelites.

 

 

 


If not then your idea that the scriptures were influenced by Babylon is False

 

How so?
My premise about the scriptures being influenced by Babylon is backed up by the fact that many if not most of the books of the Old Testament were WRITTEN in Babylon!

Jeremiah, Daniel, Amos, Isaiah, ect....were written in Babylon.

 

 

 


You yourself stated that our books of Health Biology Law and Psychology  have falsities and errors in them....yet we use them still.

 

Correct.
And the reasons why you CAN use them and use them properly is because you are seeing them in their proper perspective....as man-made books that can and often do contain errors.
Most people who follow the Bible DO NOT see it as a man made book that can contain errors but see it as a pure and Holy book with no mistakes. 
And THAT is a big mistake.

 

 

 

 


I only seek the truth

 

Then you've come to the right place...lol.

This is the Truth Depot!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Michel Montvert

 


The Adam & Eve story is so obviously allegory; it amazes me that Biblical literalists would believe it verbatim.

 

Lol...that's why they're called Bible "literalists".
They literally believe EVERYTHING in the Bible as the Divine Word.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 These 2 are created, and then experience the transition to farming! All in one lifetime! We now know that Homo sapiens is 300k yrs old, while farming is at most 12k years old. Humans had to "leave the garden" where food was available for the taking, to be forced to "earn their bread sweating and stooping over the earth." Yes, they began to farm because environmental changes reduced the wild food available.

 

One could also look at it as symbolizing the shift from a  hunter-gatherer society to a more agricultural society as they moved from Africa where it was warmer and food tended to grow more readily and plentiful to the more harsh desert and mountainous areas of the Middle East where vegetation was more scarce and you had to rely on hunting and actually farming and tilling the soil to make it more suitable for growth.

 

 

 

 

 

There is an Israeli archaeologist who has examined every one of the events of Exodus, the plagues and so on, and found scientific explanations for all of it. Yes, it rained frogs, the water turned red, and a northern bit of the Red Sea went briefly dry, allowing people to walk across.

 

The problem with an archaeologist attempting to "prove" that the events of the Bible had a more natural and less "super natural" explaination is that it feeds into the narrative of Bible thumpers of how "science" will go to extremes trying to attack and dismiss their faith.

 

It would be better for the well educated to regulate the Bible to being a religious and dogmatic book of myths and allegories than to go on a MISSION to explain away each miracle or super natural event at a time as if they actually took place.   It gives those events too much legitimacy and feeds into the conspiracy.

 

 

 

 

 

 

If we read that an ancient person was "possessed by demons", do we believe or dismiss the assertion? What we know now is that person likely was schizophrenic or with some other mental disorder. So something there was real. Was it "demons"? Probably not.

 

I'm not religious nor do I believe in the Bible obviously, however I personally think it could be BOTH.

I don't believe in demons but I do believe in Spirits and believe they can possess people.
I also believe that when people suffer from some bouts of mental illness just like being drunk or high...part of their psyche becomes more open and receptive to Spiritual contact and even Spiritual possession.


This has been known and practiced for THOUSANDS if not MILLIONS of years however.
It's nothing new around the planet.....only to the West.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Delano

 

😏-So NOW you wanna get into the conversation huh...lol

When a White person gets involved....NOW you see it as legitimate huh...lol


 

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On 8/23/2022 at 1:01 PM, Delano said:

In the beginning was the Word.

 

Which is related to Logos.

 

In addition I believe rabbinical scholars do indeed study the Word to find hidden meanings.

 

Words have an exoteric and esoteric meaning.

 

 

 

I am presenting a different viewpoint that I am neither prepared to defend not debate.

 

Well you needn't debate with me as I don't find that what you say contradicts what I said. Both things are true. The myths in the Bible are likely as I said, derived from real events, and there is indeed more profound meaning behind the straightforward meaning of words, as you say.

 

John 1:1 is indeed a very interesting text. I sometimes joke, "And the Word was BANG!" That's science. I also sometimes say, "And the Word was AUM." This business of there being a Word which is of God and is God, is similar to Neoplatonic notions of the divine mind, and the human attempt to comprehend and reflect it. And so we should indeed pay attention to words, eh?

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1 hour ago, Pioneer1 said:


frankster



I think we've conversed long enough that I'll stop using the quotes and go back to MY normal format of posting people's quotes in red.

 

 

 

 

how do you verify a fact?

 

Through direct observation or a reputable source.

 

 

 

 


The Noah and the building of the Ark is about Trust and Faith when the whole World seems to be against you.

 

Perhaps this is what YOU get out of it.
I got disappointment from it because I realized it was most likely plagiarized from earlier sources.

I don't get trust and faith from falsified documents.

 

 

 

 

How does Helel help you?

 

Knowing about him and his existence adds to my wealth of knowledge and information.

 

 

 

 

 

 

What evidence of this do you have.....


Look it up for yourself in the Hebrew transliteration of the text.
Isaiah ch.14 vs 12

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/isaiah/14.htm

 

It says HELEL BEN SAHAR ("ben" means "son of").


It says NOTHING about some character named "Lucifer" in the Hebrew text.  
That term was FALSELY attributed in the translation

 

 

 

 

 

 


.cannot the same doubts you have of scripture be said about this Helel son of sofar?

 

No.
Although I haven't verified EITHER....I trust the Hebrew transliteration more than the English translation because like we discussed earlier...it's closer to the original text.

 

 

 

 

 

 


That's what I said....you using different words to arrive at the same conclusion.

 

No.
You said information if "pure data".
Information isn't "pure" anything...it's a bunch of words and numbers.

Data is FACTS

 

Put another way.....
All data is information but not all information is data.

 

 

 

 

 


All Truths are but half Truth.....it is the fundamental nature of truth

 

I don't understand this, could you explain it?

 

 

 

 

 

 

If the story is based on facts....then there is Truth - seek it.

 

Absolutely.
However so as not to waste time seeking truth, don't go looking in places you KNOW contain falsehood....like the Bible.
Look elsewhere to places or people with a better reputation for disseminating facts, lol.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Do you think the Babylonian Captivity/conquest  took place?

 

I'm on the fence about that and simply am not sure.

I believe the CONQUEST of Babylon by the Persians took place.
But I'm not sure about the captivity of the Israelites.

 

 

 


If not then your idea that the scriptures were influenced by Babylon is False

 

How so?
My premise about the scriptures being influenced by Babylon is backed up by the fact that many if not most of the books of the Old Testament were WRITTEN in Babylon!

Jeremiah, Daniel, Amos, Isaiah, ect....were written in Babylon.

 

 

 


You yourself stated that our books of Health Biology Law and Psychology  have falsities and errors in them....yet we use them still.

 

Correct.
And the reasons why you CAN use them and use them properly is because you are seeing them in their proper perspective....as man-made books that can and often do contain errors.
Most people who follow the Bible DO NOT see it as a man made book that can contain errors but see it as a pure and Holy book with no mistakes. 
And THAT is a big mistake.

 

 

 

 


I only seek the truth

 

Then you've come to the right place...lol.

This is the Truth Depot!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Michel Montvert

 


The Adam & Eve story is so obviously allegory; it amazes me that Biblical literalists would believe it verbatim.

 

Lol...that's why they're called Bible "literalists".
They literally believe EVERYTHING in the Bible as the Divine Word.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 These 2 are created, and then experience the transition to farming! All in one lifetime! We now know that Homo sapiens is 300k yrs old, while farming is at most 12k years old. Humans had to "leave the garden" where food was available for the taking, to be forced to "earn their bread sweating and stooping over the earth." Yes, they began to farm because environmental changes reduced the wild food available.

 

One could also look at it as symbolizing the shift from a  hunter-gatherer society to a more agricultural society as they moved from Africa where it was warmer and food tended to grow more readily and plentiful to the more harse desert and mountainous areas of the Middle East where vegetation was more scarce and you had to rely on hunting and actually farming and tilling the soil to make it more suitable for growth.

 

 

 

 

 

There is an Israeli archaeologist who has examined every one of the events of Exodus, the plagues and so on, and found scientific explanations for all of it. Yes, it rained frogs, the water turned red, and a northern bit of the Red Sea went briefly dry, allowing people to walk across.

 

The problem with an archaeologist attempting to "prove" that the events of the Bible had a more natural and less "super natural" explaination is that it feeds into the narrative of Bible thumpers of how "science" will go to extremes trying to attact and dismiss their faith.

 

It would be better for the well educated to regulate the Bible to being a religious and dogmatic book of myths and allegories than to go on a MISSION to explain away each miracle or super natural event at a time.  It gives those events too much legitimacy and feeds into the conspiracy.

 

 

 

 

 

 

If we read that an ancient person was "possessed by demons", do we believe or dismiss the assertion? What we know now is that person likely was schizophrenic or with some other mental disorder. So something there was real. Was it "demons"? Probably not.

 

I'm not religious nor do I believe in the Bible obviously, however I personally think it could be BOTH.

I don't believe in demons but I do believe in Spirits and believe they can possess people.
I also believe that when people suffer from some bouts of mental illness just like being drunk or high...part of their psyche becomes more open and receptive to Spiritual contact and even Spiritual possession.


This has been known and practiced for THOUSANDS if not MILLIONS of years however.
It's nothing new around the planet.....only to the West.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Delano

 

😏-So NOW you wanna get into the conversation huh...lol

When a White person gets involved....NOW you see it as legitimate huh...lol


 

Oh Lord I'm trying to be more than "a white person"... and frankly being so-called "white" gets me no points as far as I can see. I mean as far as making me any more legitimate. In society I get points yes, due to institutional racism.  I was born with a reflective butt, that's all.

 

Lots said here. I'll address a few factual matters relative to anthropology, where I have some expertise. First, humans did not start farming upon leaving Africa. That occurred about 60k yrs ago, and agriculture only appeared within the past 11k yrs or so. Mostly even more recently that 11k. What drove the development of agriculture was climate change. In the early Holocene glaciers were melting, and then there was the Younger Dryas period which was a temporary reversion to cold conditions. All of this reduced the availability of large herd animals to hunt. Those people who remained hunter-gatherers changed their tactics considerably, concentrating on smaller game and a more diverse array of food sources. In the Mideast, along the Sahel, in India-SE Asia, in northern China, in Mesoamerica and in Carib-Andes food and animal domestication proceeded. Notice that one of those mega-domestication regions was in Africa. Africa was not entirely a cornupopia of easy pickings. In the Sahara cattle were domesticated to secure a large mammal food source, and aquatic and agricultural resources also were intensified and developed. One need not leave Africa to require adjustments to food procuring technology in the early-mid Holocene.

 

Also, as for "the West" not understanding about spiritual access enhanced by mind-altering substances... that is not true. Western culture as we understand it has 2 principle roots: Neolithic Europe and the Yamnaya (Indoeuropean) steppe culture. The former is less well known to us, but they did have an egalitarian society. women were generally in charge, and from the earth-based imagery in their art we can infer that they were very much involved with "nature spirits" and so on. As for the Yamnaya, they are known to have used in the steppes a concoction mentioned in the Rig Veda called "soma" ("houma" in Avestan) which it is believed consisted of a mixture of Cannabis, opium and Ephedra (ma huang). Evidence of Cannabis use among the Israelite priests has been found, and they had to have acquired this from Indoeuropeans, such as the Hurrians who were present in the Mideast even in Sumerian times.

 

This along with a lot of culture with which we might be better off was expunged from Europe by Christian powers. The amount of culture wiped out by spreading Christianity in Europe is astonishing. Christian influence trashed much of Roman society, and the regional and local pagan cultures were decimated. The same problem exists elsewhere due to Islam. Those 2 religions have destroyed a lot of culture.

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On 8/23/2022 at 9:15 AM, Michel Montvert said:

The Adam & Eve story is so obviously allegory; it amazes me that Biblical literalists would believe it verbatim. These 2 are created, and then experience the transition to farming! All in one lifetime! We now know that Homo sapiens is 300k yrs old, while farming is at most 12k years old. Humans had to "leave the garden" where food was available for the taking, to be forced to "earn their bread sweating and stooping over the earth." Yes, they began to farm because environmental changes reduced the wild food available.

To me it's more than just an allegory....calling it just an allegory people tend to miss it's importance and relevance.

Prior to eating of the "tree of knowledge" they were in a animalistice stage (more Instinctive Gatherer than Hunter)...so yes we agree the agrarian age commenced - farming.

 

On 8/23/2022 at 9:15 AM, Michel Montvert said:

 

They learned to distinguish between good and evil... this means that it became possible, with agriculture, for those so inclined to accumulate wealth at the expense of their fellows. That's what we call "evil".

True...

Good and Evil also represents Right and Wrong - duality

 

On 8/23/2022 at 9:15 AM, Michel Montvert said:

 

Jesus created a good allegory which is generally misinterpreted. He cast out the demons from a person, inserting them into a herd of pigs which then were drowned. Pigs, which observant Jews didn't eat, represented the Hellenized culture which had come to dominate Judah. The Romans. Those unclean sorts cast into the water, like Romans expelled back into the sea. And he called the demons "Legion". That makes this "parable" very obvious, yet never in Church did they teach us that Jesus was talking about the Romans.

Okay...

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On 8/23/2022 at 9:40 AM, Michel Montvert said:

In attempting to find esoteric meaning in every word of scripture, we ignore that it was not all concocted as an elaborate Kabalah to be deciphered. Much of it is simply a retelling of history by what we consider to be "primitive" minds.

 

Most myth, among any people, is based on fact. In the telling there is much fantasy, but at the core lie real events. For example, there WAS a flood, or several of them. accompanying the melting of the glaciers in the early Holocene and the filling of the Black Sea with waters of the Mediterranean. The Sumerian Gilgamesh tale speaks of such flooding, and obviously the Noah tale is of a kind.

 

Even today, someone can narrowly avoid an accident and proclaim that "God intervened". Well, the accident avoidance really occurred. The divine intervention is perhaps an invention. But there is a core of truth in the story: an accident was indeed avoided.

 

I've had atheists nearly have nervous breakdowns over this notion that there is truth in myths, especially Biblical myths, which atheists especially abhor, but I do not state this as a Christian or believer, but as an anthropologist. There is an Israeli archaeologist who has examined every one of the events of Exodus, the plagues and so on, and found scientific explanations for all of it. Yes, it rained frogs, the water turned red, and a northern bit of the Red Sea went briefly dry, allowing people to walk across. Ah but the Biblical narrative doesn't speak of volcanic activity or earthquakes or algae blooms... So is the whole thing a fantasy? The logical conclusion is that it is in fact based on real events. But as with all myth, humans are quick to inject a lot of supernaturalism, often to explain things they can't explain.

 

If we read that an ancient person was "possessed by demons", do we believe or dismiss the assertion? What we know now is that person likely was schizophrenic or with some other mental disorder. So something there was real. Was it "demons"? Probably not.

 

In the future perhaps people will relate tales of an orange ogre who tried to eat the Constitution. Is that real? Well, not literally, but still, yes it did happen. The ogre was named Trump.

Few things to disagree with here.

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On 8/24/2022 at 6:27 PM, Pioneer1 said:


frankster



I think we've conversed long enough that I'll stop using the quotes and go back to MY normal format of posting people's quotes in red.

 

 

 

 

how do you verify a fact?

 

Through direct observation or a reputable source.

Reputable sources???

 

On 8/24/2022 at 6:27 PM, Pioneer1 said:

 

 

 

 


The Noah and the building of the Ark is about Trust and Faith when the whole World seems to be against you.

 

Perhaps this is what YOU get out of it.
I got disappointment from it because I realized it was most likely plagiarized from earlier sources.

I don't get trust and faith from falsified documents

There is no plagiarization as the information was in the Public Domain....no one rights was  infringed

 

On 8/24/2022 at 6:27 PM, Pioneer1 said:

 

How does Helel help you?

 

Knowing about him and his existence adds to my wealth of knowledge and information.

It's not Knowledge....it's information 

 

On 8/24/2022 at 6:27 PM, Pioneer1 said:

 

What evidence of this do you have.....


Look it up for yourself in the Hebrew transliteration of the text.
Isaiah ch.14 vs 12

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/isaiah/14.htm

 

It says HELEL BEN SAHAR ("ben" means "son of").


It says NOTHING about some character named "Lucifer" in the Hebrew text.  
That term was FALSELY attributed in the translation

You say  John and I say Juan....No one is lying.

 

On 8/24/2022 at 6:27 PM, Pioneer1 said:


.cannot the same doubts you have of scripture be said about this Helel son of sofar?

 

No.
Although I haven't verified EITHER....I trust the Hebrew transliteration more than the English translation because like we discussed earlier...it's closer to the original text.

One is a translation and one is a transliteration...they are both accurate.

 

On 8/24/2022 at 6:27 PM, Pioneer1 said:


That's what I said....you using different words to arrive at the same conclusion.

 

No.
You said information is "pure data".
Information isn't "pure" anything...it's a bunch of words and numbers.

Data is FACTS

Put another way.....
All data is information but not all information is data.

 

 

Here is the meaning of Data and Information on google search....tell me the difference - they both facts.

facts provided or learned about something or someone.

facts and statistics collected together for reference or analysis.

 

 

On 8/24/2022 at 6:27 PM, Pioneer1 said:


All Truths are but half Truth.....it is the fundamental nature of truth

 

I don't understand this, could you explain it?

The Universal Constant of Change is fundamental to The Nature of Time....

 

On 8/24/2022 at 6:27 PM, Pioneer1 said:

 

If the story is based on facts....then there is Truth - seek it.

 

Absolutely.
However so as not to waste time seeking truth, don't go looking in places you KNOW contain falsehood....like the Bible.
Look elsewhere to places or people with a better reputation for disseminating facts, lol.

Like the biology books being used in schools.....that you also said had falsities in them?

For them to get in schools some reputable sources must have recommended them...

 

On 8/24/2022 at 6:27 PM, Pioneer1 said:

 

Do you think the Babylonian Captivity/conquest  took place?

 

I'm on the fence about that and simply am not sure.

I believe the CONQUEST of Babylon by the Persians took place.
But I'm not sure about the captivity of the Israelites.

You not sure is ....quite telling

you are in danger of straddling the fence....or worst contradicting yourself

 

On 8/24/2022 at 6:27 PM, Pioneer1 said:


If not then your idea that the scriptures were influenced by Babylon is False

 

How so?
My premise about the scriptures being influenced by Babylon is backed up by the fact that many if not most of the books of the Old Testament were WRITTEN in Babylon!

Jeremiah, Daniel, Amos, Isaiah, ect....were written in Babylon.

You just said you was unsure of the Babylonian sojourn....if so how can you attest that these books were written in Babylon?

 

On 8/24/2022 at 6:27 PM, Pioneer1 said:

 

 

 


You yourself stated that our books of Health Biology Law and Psychology  have falsities and errors in them....yet we use them still.

 

Correct.
And the reasons why you CAN use them and use them properly is because you are seeing them in their proper perspective....as man-made books that can and often do contain errors.
Most people who follow the Bible DO NOT see it as a man made book that can contain errors but see it as a pure and Holy book with no mistakes. 
And THAT is a big mistake.

I  keep telling you that the scriptures were written by inspired men....who are vain frail and do err

I am not "most people"

 

On 8/24/2022 at 6:27 PM, Pioneer1 said:


I only seek the truth

 

Then you've come to the right place...lol.

This is the Truth Depot!

We are all seeking truth....even if we do not know it.

We are all part of the Divine.....we learn from each other

 

On 8/24/2022 at 6:27 PM, Pioneer1 said:

 

 

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Michel Montvert

 

 

Well you needn't debate with me as I don't find that what you say contradicts what I said

 

Don't worry, he WON'T debate with you....lol.
He only debates or disagrees with other Black people he thinks he's intellectually superior to.

 

 

 

 


 I was born with a reflective butt, that's all.

 

Lol...there are many things I could do with that statement but not knowing whether you're male or female....I'll leave it alone!

 

 

 

 

Lots said here. I'll address a few factual matters relative to anthropology, where I have some expertise. First, humans did not start farming upon leaving Africa. That occurred about 60k yrs ago, and agriculture only appeared within the past 11k yrs or so. Mostly even more recently that 11k. What drove the development of agriculture was climate change. In the early Holocene glaciers were melting, and then there was the Younger Dryas period which was a temporary reversion to cold conditions. All of this reduced the availability of large herd animals to hunt. Those people who remained hunter-gatherers changed their tactics considerably, concentrating on smaller game and a more diverse array of food sources. In the Mideast, along the Sahel, in India-SE Asia, in northern China, in Mesoamerica and in Carib-Andes food and animal domestication proceeded. Notice that one of those mega-domestication regions was in Africa. Africa was not entirely a cornupopia of easy pickings. In the Sahara cattle were domesticated to secure a large mammal food source, and aquatic and agricultural resources also were intensified and developed. One need not leave Africa to require adjustments to food procuring technology in the early-mid Holocene.

 

Well, that is OFFICIAL history in Western academia, however it may or may not be true.

 

I tend to AUTOMATICALLY not trust "official" Western history today because they are constantly coming out with "new" findings that change timelines and incidents that were once agreed upon and also I knew much of history is purposely covered up by Western scholars for various reasons.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Also, as for "the West" not understanding about spiritual access enhanced by mind-altering substances... that is not true. Western culture as we understand it has 2 principle roots: Neolithic Europe and the Yamnaya (Indoeuropean) steppe culture. The former is less well known to us, but they did have an egalitarian society. women were generally in charge, and from the earth-based imagery in their art we can infer that they were very much involved with "nature spirits" and so on. As for the Yamnaya, they are known to have used in the steppes a concoction mentioned in the Rig Veda called "soma" ("houma" in Avestan) which it is believed consisted of a mixture of Cannabis, opium and Ephedra (ma huang). Evidence of Cannabis use among the Israelite priests has been found, and they had to have acquired this from Indoeuropeans, such as the Hurrians who were present in the Mideast even in Sumerian times.

 

The term "Western" isn't necessarily synonymous with Indo-European or even Europeans period historically.
When people say "The West" or "Western" they are usually talking about the Christian era North/Western European (especially England, France, Germany, U.S., Canada, Australia) culture and land base.

 

The indigenous tribes of Europe...especially before the Caucasians moved in and settled there...are NOT considered "Western" or part of Western history.

 

 

 

 

 


This along with a lot of culture with which we might be better off was expunged from Europe by Christian powers. The amount of culture wiped out by spreading Christianity in Europe is astonishing. Christian influence trashed much of Roman society, and the regional and local pagan cultures were decimated. The same problem exists elsewhere due to Islam. Those 2 religions have destroyed a lot of culture.

 

Exactly.
Because both religions were used by Caucasians who incorporated them to conquer and exploit the indigenous peoples in the lands they invaded.

 

European Caucasians primarily used Christianity.
Arab and other Asian Caucasians primarily used Islam.

 

But this is why I said the pre-Christian Europe shouldn't be considered "Western".

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

frankster

 

 

 

 

To me it's more than just an allegory....calling it just an allegory people tend to miss it's importance and relevance.


Not sure if Michel did, but you can't find ME referring to this stories as "just" allegories.
They may be many other things besides allegories.
However their other identities and purposes don't negate the fact that they ARE still allegories.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It may be many things besides an allegory, however all of it's other identities and functions ma

Prior to eating of the "tree of knowledge" they were in a animalistice stage (more Instinctive Gatherer than Hunter)..

 

Are you sure about this?
According to the Bible you believe in, before eating of the "tree of knowledge" Adam was charged with NAMING the animals and TAKING CARE of the Garden of Eden.
More of a farmer or Garden tiller, not a hunter.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Reputable sources???

 

Sources with a history of giving factual information and not lying.

 

 

 

 


You say  John and I say Juan....No one is lying.

 

When you take the word "Helel" and change it into "Lucifer" than that IS lying.

 

Names don't translate.
They are what they are and shouldn't be modified except when there just is no other choice.

 

John is John.
That's what his mama named him, and that's what he should be called...lol.

 

 

 

 

 

 

One is a translation and one is a transliteration...they are both accurate.

 

The transliteration is accurate...but not the translation.
However this is beyond argument.
If you refuse to accept this, I won't waste time going back and forth with you over it.

 

 

 

 

 

 


The Universal Constant of Change is fundamental to The Nature of Time....

 

Things may change, but the TRUTH of what they were at the time when it was stated remains the same.

In other words.....

If you asked me what time it was at 3pm...
And I told you "3pm".
Even at Midnight....THAT fact would remain the same!

 

It may not be 3pm right now....
But the FACT that it was 3pm when you asked me remains the same, has not changed, and WILL NOT change!

 

 

 

 

 


Like the biology books being used in schools.....that you also said had falsities in them?

For them to get in schools some reputable sources must have recommended them...

 

Perhaps in some cases, but in many other cases the books that end up in schools are the books that the school board, government, and other concerned interests APPROVE of for various purposes such as indoctrination of the population.

 

It should be noted that while certain sources are "reputable" for providing truth.
Certain other sources are "reputable" for providing propaganda...lol.

 

 

 

 

 

 

You not sure is ....quite telling

you are in danger of straddling the fence....or worst contradicting yourself

 

My admitting that I' not sure is VERY telling.
It tells you that I'm HONEST and don't claim to know that which I don't...lol.

 

Sometimes it's BEST to straddle the fence if you don't know what's lurking around down on the ground on either side of you....lol

 

 

Woman's Dog Put Down After Two Large Dogs Jumped Her Fence and Attacked It

 

"Stop straddling the fence!
Come on down from there punk!"


 

 

 


I  keep telling you that the scriptures were written by inspired men....who are vain frail and do err

 

Ok??
And??

 

Pornography is also produced by "inspired" men.
Weapons are produced by "inspired" men.

The questions are WHO or WHAT is inpiring them and for what purpose???

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

We are all part of the Divine.....we learn from each other

 

Indirectly, yes...I believe this.

And I KNOW we learn from each other!

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10 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

frankster

 

To me it's more than just an allegory....calling it just an allegory people tend to miss it's importance and relevance.


Not sure if Michel did, but you can't find ME referring to this stories as "just" allegories.
They may be many other things besides allegories.
However their other identities and purposes don't negate the fact that they ARE still allegories.

Then you recognize that they value, as you accept that they are not "just allegories"

Seek the value 

 

10 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

 

It may be many things besides an allegory, however all of it's other identities and functions ma

Prior to eating of the "tree of knowledge" they were in a animalistice stage (more Instinctive Gatherer than Hunter)..

 

Are you sure about this?
According to the Bible you believe in, before eating of the "tree of knowledge" Adam was charged with NAMING the animals and TAKING CARE of the Garden of Eden.
More of a farmer or Garden tiller, not a hunter.

  Yes...

 

 

10 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

Reputable sources???

 

Sources with a history of giving factual information and not lying.

Name one such source?

 

10 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:


You say  John and I say Juan....No one is lying.

 

When you take the word "Helel" and change it into "Lucifer" than that IS lying.

 

Names don't translate.
They are what they are and shouldn't be modified except when there just is no other choice.

 

John is John.
That's what his mama named him, and that's what he should be called...lol.

There is what you and your family call you and then there is what other people call you....Robbie Rob Bob and Bobbie.

 

 

 

10 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

One is a translation and one is a transliteration...they are both accurate.

 

The transliteration is accurate...but not the translation.
However this is beyond argument.
If you refuse to accept this, I won't waste time going back and forth with you over it.

Thank you 

You know they are both right.

 

10 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:


The Universal Constant of Change is fundamental to The Nature of Time....

 

Things may change, but the TRUTH of what they were at the time when it was stated remains the same.

In other words.....

If you asked me what time it was at 3pm...
And I told you "3pm".
Even at Midnight....THAT fact would remain the same!

 

It may not be 3pm right now....
But the FACT that it was 3pm when you asked me remains the same, has not changed, and WILL NOT change!

True but only half the story....

What if I am in Cali and you are  in NY then the times would be different 12 and 3....but remain true respectively

 

10 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:


Like the biology books being used in schools.....that you also said had falsities in them?

For them to get in schools some reputable sources must have recommended them...

 

Perhaps in some cases, but in many other cases the books that end up in schools are the books that the school board, government, and other concerned interests APPROVE of for various purposes such as indoctrination of the population.

 

It should be noted that while certain sources are "reputable" for providing truth.
Certain other sources are "reputable" for providing propaganda...lol.

True....and your sources ar all 100% true and free of propaganda?

 

10 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

You not sure is ....quite telling

you are in danger of straddling the fence....or worst contradicting yourself

 

My admitting that I' not sure is VERY telling.
It tells you that I'm HONEST and don't claim to know that which I don't...lol.

 

Sometimes it's BEST to straddle the fence if you don't know what's lurking around down on the ground on either side of you....lol

It tells me that you are talking about things you know not.

 

10 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

 

Woman's Dog Put Down After Two Large Dogs Jumped Her Fence and Attacked It

 

"Stop straddling the fence!
Come on down from there punk!"


 

 

 


I  keep telling you that the scriptures were written by inspired men....who are vain frail and do err

 

Ok??
And??

 

Pornography is also produced by "inspired" men.
Weapons are produced by "inspired" men.

The questions are WHO or WHAT is inpiring them and for what purpose???

The Divine Inspires.

 

10 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

We are all part of the Divine.....we learn from each other

 

Indirectly, yes...I believe this.

And I KNOW we learn from each other!

Thank You

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frankster

 

 

Then you recognize that they value, as you accept that they are not "just allegories"

Seek the value 

 

Oh yes, they are valuable just for the entertainment alone...lol.

 

Like a good novel...
The fact that they have us conversing with eachother over them proves their value on some level, regardless of whether they are factual or not.

 

 

 

 

Name one such source?

 

Well, I gave you one already.
I provided a link to the Hebrew translations and transliterations of the Old Testament.

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/ 

 

 

 


There is what you and your family call you and then there is what other people call you....Robbie Rob Bob and Bobbie.

 

Those are all different versions of the SAME NAME.
 

Helel and Lucifer are TOTALLY DIFFERENT NAMES all together.
One isn't a "version" of the other, but they're entirely different.

 

 

 

 

 

 

True but only half the story....

 

What if I am in Cali and you are  in NY then the times would be different 12 and 3....but remain true respectively

 

The times would be different IN THOSE DIFFERENT REGIONS...but not in THEIR respective regions.

If it's 12 in California, that fact isn't disrupted or even influenced by the time in New York, China, or anywhere else.
It remains constant.
It doesn't change.


As the night progresses the CURRENT time will change, but the fact that it was 12 at THAT TIME didn't and won't change.

 

For example, if a person was born at 6am on April 11th 1966.....THAT DOESN'T CHANGE.

It may be 8pm August 31st 2022 right now...but the fact that they were born AT THAT time is a fact that doesn't change at all.

 

 

 

True....and your sources ar all 100% true and free of propaganda?

 

I can't say that.

 

 

 

 

It tells me that you are talking about things you know not.

 

If we're discussing history....then aren't we both?

It's 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and even 5th hand information we've gotten from other sources.

How much do you or I actually "know" for sure about the history we're discussing?
 

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14 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

frankster

 

 

Then you recognize that they value, as you accept that they are not "just allegories"

Seek the value 

 

Oh yes, they are valuable just for the entertainment alone...lol.

 

Like a good novel...
The fact that they have us conversing with eachother over them proves their value on some level, regardless of whether they are factual or not.

If the only value you see is Entertainment....Do you Value Entertain?

By your tone its seems you do not value entertainment, if so......then you have not seen any value.

So to you they are Allegories.....Where as I see Value

 

14 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

 

 

 

Name one such source?

 

Well, I gave you one already.
I provided a link to the Hebrew translations and transliterations of the Old Testament.

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/ 

Zondervan/HarperCollins they have a decidedly Western Christian Bias....I use them myself

 

14 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:


There is what you and your family call you and then there is what other people call you....Robbie Rob Bob and Bobbie.

 

Those are all different versions of the SAME NAME.
 

Helel and Lucifer are TOTALLY DIFFERENT NAMES all together.
One isn't a "version" of the other, but they're entirely different.

Yes....they are all in English so they Sound alike....Juan and John is different Languages so they sound different.

 The further apart the Languages are linguistically the more the difference becomes pronounced...generally

Translation is trying to convey Meaning....Whilst Transliteration is trying to convey Sound...No one is Lying and it's not a contradiction.

 

 

 

14 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

True but only half the story....

 

What if I am in Cali and you are  in NY then the times would be different 12 and 3....but remain true respectively

 

The times would be different IN THOSE DIFFERENT REGIONS...but not in THEIR respective regions.

If it's 12 in California, that fact isn't disrupted or even influenced by the time in New York, China, or anywhere else.
It remains constant.
It doesn't change.


As the night progresses the CURRENT time will change, but the fact that it was 12 at THAT TIME didn't and won't change.

 

For example, if a person was born at 6am on April 11th 1966.....THAT DOESN'T CHANGE.

It may be 8pm August 31st 2022 right now...but the fact that they were born AT THAT time is a fact that doesn't change at all.

Yes....That fact also remains that 3 in Cali is equally true and factual with 12 in NY.....Respective to where the participants are - both are True

With birthday lets say one is on the opposite side of the globe as to the other..

 


 

 

 

 

14 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

 

 

True....and your sources ar all 100% true and free of propaganda?

 

I can't say that.

Thank you....so even your trusted and reputable sources may have some propaganda...Why would expect the bible to be different?

 

14 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

 

 

 

It tells me that you are talking about things you know not.

 

If we're discussing history....then aren't we both?

No...

 

14 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:


It's 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and even 5th hand information we've gotten from other sources.

How much do you or I actually "know" for sure about the history we're discussing?
 

In terms of the Scriptures we use most or by most people it's more like 100th 300th or 500th hand information......Find the Value its all not just entertainment.....

The Very First hand Source is available...

And a very good second hand source is also available but remote for many or most.

 

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frankster

 

 

If the only value you see is Entertainment...

 

We can stop right there, because that's not true.
I see more value in it than just entertainment.

 

 

 


So to you they are Allegories.....Where as I see Value


I see both.

 

 

 

 

 

 The further apart the Languages are linguistically the more the difference becomes pronounced...generally

 

True.
But these are two different words all together for two different beings.

 

 

 

 

 

Translation is trying to convey Meaning....Whilst Transliteration is trying to convey Sound..

 

Well put.

 

 

 

 


No one is Lying and it's not a contradiction.

 

I differ on that.
Whoever inserted the word "Lucifer" in there in place of Helel was definitely practicing deception.

 

 

 

 

Yes....That fact also remains that 3 in Cali is equally true and factual with 12 in NY.....Respective to where the participants are - both are True

 

No.
California's time is behind New York's.

 

 

 

 


With birthday lets say one is on the opposite side of the globe as to the other..

 

Ok?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thank you....so even your trusted and reputable sources may have some propaganda...Why would expect the bible to be different?

 

I don't.
Do YOU recognize that the Bible contains propaganda???

 

 

 

 

 


In terms of the Scriptures we use most or by most people it's more like 100th 300th or 500th hand information......Find the Value its all not just entertainment.....

 

Can't disagree with this.

 

 

 

 


And a very good second hand source is also available but remote for many or most.

 

And what would (or Who would) that be???


 

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On 8/11/2022 at 7:07 PM, Pioneer1 said:

 

What is the Name of this "Greater Caucasian Civilization"?

 

I don't know if they had an actual name but the BRANCHES of the various Caucasians were known as Aryans, Akkadians, Teutons, Visgoths, ect..

 

Are Semites Considered Caucasians?

 

Some are, some aren't.
Semites......which is actually a made up term taken from the Bible for the supposed descendants of Shem...were the DESCENDANTS of the first Caucasians to came down from the Caucasus mountains and began roaming around and eventually settling down in the deserts of Arabia and Iran/Iraq.

The original ones were Caucasian but they became mixed with the original Black residents of the lands they conquered and settled into.

This is the primary reason why so many Jews and Arabs come in different colors today.

 

 


Moses was one of the "law givers" of the Caucasian people.  He took some of ancient Egypt's laws and books and brought it up to them to help civilize them from their savage condition.

 

Sorry, but some of this history sounds like it came from the NOI and it is NOT supported by any evidence. There was no greater "Caucasian" civilization from which all those named sprang. Any connection between the Y-DNA J2 Semitic speakers and the R1a and R1b Indoeuropeans was very ancient. long before farming, and irrelevant. The Indoeuropeans did not come from the Caucasus, but from the steppes.

 

After "Out of Africa" 60k years ago, the people of the Mideast were those who evolved there. They were no longer "Africans", but all qualify as "Caucasoid" regardless of their skin color. The designation is not about color. "Caucasoid" does NOT equal "white". The Mideasterners with whom migrants from the Caucasus (Semitic speakers) and later from the steppes (Indoeuropean speakers) mixed were already "Caucasoid". Of course if you look at southern Arabia (where Africans had migrated) or Lower Egypt (where Eurasians had migrated), you'll see a lot of mixed people, and good luck putting them into a category.

 

The "Caucasian" people were no more savage than anyone else, on the whole. I'd say the Indoeuropeans behaved quite badly, starting with the Yamnaya 6000 years ago. But what we'd call savagery can be found anywhere. Egypt was not the world's first civilization. There were others millennia before, in Africa, in Europe and elsewhere. The world was not civilized by Egypt. That sort of radical diffusionism is very 19th-century and not believed today.

 

Moses was the lawgiver to the Israelites! Nobody else cared, for a very long time. Certainly the Indoeuropeans did not care until much later they were Christianized, in Roman times.

 

Civilization: by 6000 bce there was civilization in Europe, in the Balkans, along the Danube and its tributaries, and along the Mediterranean. Civilization with many towns, extensive trading networks, and a system of writing older than any other known, upon which Sumerian writing was obviously based, since it uses many of the same symbols. This "Old European" civilization was destroyed by the incoming Yamnaya from the steppes, the Indoeuropean speakers. In Africa there was also an extensive society which I know will be before long declared to be "civilization", in the Sahara, growing out of the "African Aquatic".

 

Egypt was great, to be sure, but it was not the first civilization. Both "black" and "white" people had created civilized societies prior to Egyptian Unification (Narmer).

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Michel Montvert

 

 


Sorry, but some of this history sounds like it came from the NOI and it is NOT supported by any evidence. 

 

That's because much of it did.
Although I'm not religious and don't agree with all of their doctrine, I give credit where credit is due because studying the teachings of the Nation of Islam was instrumental in breaking the hold Christianity had on me from centuries of racist indoctrination.

 

 

 

There was no greater "Caucasian" civilization from which all those named sprang. Any connection between the Y-DNA J2 Semitic speakers and the R1a and R1b Indoeuropeans was very ancient.

 

Lol...you just named it.
It's called "INDO-EUROPEAN"

Literally the Caucasians from which those Caucasians who migrated to both the Indian sub-continent and Europe is that "greater Caucasians" civilization.

 

 

 


 The Indoeuropeans did not come from the Caucasus, but from the steppes.

 

Take a look at this map of the Steppes of Central Asia and you tell me if the assertion that their home was indeed the Caucasus mountains is far fetched....

 

 

365_aat7487_fa.jpeg

 


Looks to me like the center-point for all of this migration is the CAUCASUS MOUNTAINS!
 


They were in the Caucasus mountains for centuries BEFORE migrating into the steppes of Central Asia.
And those who migrated into those steppes were only a PORTION of the greater Caucasian race who migrated in different directions.

 

 

 

 

 

After "Out of Africa" 60k years ago,

 

Which is a THEORY....but let's move on.......

 

 

 

 

 


 the people of the Mideast were those who evolved there.

 

The people of the Mideast were those who "evolved there"?

Hmmm...

I want to understand you clearly...


Are you saying that for the most part, Middle Easterners are people descended from those who evolved there INSTEAD OF being a mixture of various groups from different parts of the globe who MIGRATED there from different directions???

 

 

 

 

 

 They were no longer "Africans", but all qualify as "Caucasoid" regardless of their skin color. 

 

How so?
The Middle East isn't the Caucasus region, so why would simply being there automatically qualify them as "Caucasoid"????

 

 

 

 

 

 

The designation is not about color. "Caucasoid" does NOT equal "white". 

 

I don't know what "Caucasoid" means, which is why I don't use the term.  I use the term CAUCASIAN.
And although it's not about color, it IS a racial term.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The Mideasterners with whom migrants from the Caucasus (Semitic speakers) and later from the steppes (Indoeuropean speakers) mixed were already "Caucasoid".

 

Well, again...not sure about the "Caucasoid" part but yes SOME of them were mixed.
But most weren't.

 

 

 


 Of course if you look at southern Arabia (where Africans had migrated) or Lower Egypt (where Eurasians had migrated), you'll see a lot of mixed people, and good luck putting them into a category.

 

Facts.

 

 

 


 

The "Caucasian" people were no more savage than anyone else, on the whole. 

 

Being that Caucasians are a RACE instead of an ethnic group we have to compare Caucasians with other RACES.

 

Which other races have a history of living primarily in mountains?
Which other races have a history of eating raw or almost raw meat?
Which other races have a history of even a portion of their population crawling on all four limbs?

 

You may be able to say this about a few ethnic groups INSIDE of certain races, but not the majority of the race...as was the case for Caucasians while they were in the Central Asia/Caucasus mountain region.

 

 

 

 

 

 Egypt was not the world's first civilization.

 

I agree.
Not by a long shot.

 

 

 

 

 


 There were others millennia before, in Africa, in Europe and elsewhere. The world was not civilized by Egypt. 

 

I didn't say that it was.
But I DID say that Caucasians were for the most part civilized by  Egyptians who constantly sent people to them giving them scientific knowledge to raise them from a savage and barbaric state to a more refined and civilized state.

 

Even ancient Greek historians and philosophers like Herodotus and Aristotle admit to this.

Many Caucasian cultures like the Greek and Romans say that their "Gods" came from Egypt and Ethiopia.

 

 

 

 

 


 

Moses was the lawgiver to the Israelites! 

 

According to the Bible...not necessarily according to history.
And according to the Greeks, THEY had a law giver and civilizer named Musaeus
 

Infact, when you read about the allegory of the "Muse" being responsible for musicians and poets Inspiration and creativity....it's a throw back to that ORIGINAL law giver and Inspirational Civilizer Mose/Moshe/Musa/Moses.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Civilization: by 6000 bce there was civilization in Europe, in the Balkans, along the Danube and its tributaries, and along the Mediterranean. Civilization with many towns, extensive trading networks, and a system of writing older than any other known, upon which Sumerian writing was obviously based, since it uses many of the same symbols. 

 

Ofcourse!
Civilization existed in Europe for atleast TENS of THOUSANDS of years if not HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of years!!

But it just wasn't CAUCASIAN civilization!


Black and Brown people had been occupying Europe and establishing civilizations all over that continent (really a sub-continent) for CENTURIES before the first White person was ever in existence on this planet.

The original Europeans were indeed Black and Brown.

 

 

 

 


This "Old European" civilization was destroyed by the incoming Yamnaya from the steppes, the Indoeuropean speakers. 

 

Absolutely!
Just like the Caucasians migrated to the Americas, killed off the original Native Americans and stole their land and resources...they did the same thing to Europe BEFORE THAT after migrating West from the Caucasus mountains.

 

 

 

 

 

 


In Africa there was also an extensive society which I know will be before long declared to be "civilization", in the Sahara, growing out of the "African Aquatic".

 

Ok.
I can dig that!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Egypt was great, to be sure, but it was not the first civilization. Both "black" and "white" people had created civilized societies prior to Egyptian Unification (Narmer).

 

I agree.

Infact, most people don't realize that there is a difference between EGYPTIAN civilization and KEMETIC civilization.

When you talk about "Egypt" you're talking about a kingdom t heavily influenced if not developed by Caucasians who migrated down into ancient Kemet and helped destroy or dissolve THAT great Empire and turn it into what we call "Egypt".

Kemet being a much greater, longer, and Blacker Empire than the Egyptian one that replaced it.


 

 

image.jpeg

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22 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:


frankster

 

 

If the only value you see is Entertainment...

 

We can stop right there, because that's not true.
I see more value in it than just entertainment.

Ok then state the Value you see....as you keep going back forth

 

22 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:


So to you they are Allegories.....Where as I see Value


I see both.

 Then seek the Value.

 

 

22 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

 The further apart the Languages are linguistically the more the difference becomes pronounced...generally

 

True.
But these are two different words all together for two different beings.

The Link you provided - Bible hub.com also used the word "Lucifer" in its translation and "helel in in it's Transliteration....are you now calling into question the source you provided ?

 

 

 

22 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

Translation is trying to convey Meaning....Whilst Transliteration is trying to convey Sound..

 

Well put.


No one is Lying and it's not a contradiction.

 

I differ on that.
Whoever inserted the word "Lucifer" in there in place of Helel was definitely practicing deception.

Lucifer means Light bringer/bearer - in Latin the Star the rises in the morning is called Lucifer/Venus rising - morning star

To understand one must also understand the following terms Horem akhet - Horizon.

 

22 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

 

 

 

Yes....That fact also remains that 3 in Cali is equally true and factual with 12 in NY.....Respective to where the participants are - both are True

 

No.
California's time is behind New York's.

Hence the word "Respective" and no pm's or am's was used....you are getting pedantic....what next grammar and spelling

 

 

22 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:


With birthday lets say one is on the opposite side of the globe as to the other..

 

Ok?

 

Thank you....so even your trusted and reputable sources may have some propaganda...Why would expect the bible to be different?

 

I don't.
Do YOU recognize that the Bible contains propaganda???

I have maintain throughout our exchange that inspired men wrote the Bible....and that Men are frail vain and do err.

 

 

22 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:


In terms of the Scriptures we use most or by most people it's more like 100th 300th or 500th hand information......Find the Value its all not just entertainment.....

 

Can't disagree with this.

After so many interpretations, translations and intentional or unintentional mistranslation/misinterpretations..... it's a miracle that we can understand it at all.

 

22 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:


And a very good second hand source is also available but remote for many or most.

 

And what would (or Who would) that be???


 

 What and Where...is the question.

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