Pioneer1

Jenny

I've noticed a slow but steady deterioration of movies showing real genuine Black love.

Back in the late 60s and 70s you would see realist looking and usually dark skinned Black men and women in the movies and on television making love to eachother, kissing, and showing signs of affection.

Around the time of the 80s the Black actors and actresses started getting lighter and lighter.

In the 90s you rarely saw 2 dark skinned Black people loving eachother in major movies. You either saw 2 White people or a White person with a very light usually mixed Black person. You didn't see ANY dark skinned Black women as objects of love and desire, and other than Wesley Snipes or Denzel Washington you rarely saw Black men in those positions either.

If you are old enough to notice, there is less Black love and lower self esteem among the Black youth of today than 40 years ago. I believe it's because they haven't seen many images of themselves as beautiful and desirable in the media today as in the past.

Troy

I hear you on the unfounded criticism of the Cosby Show.

I grew up in Detroit where there were plenty of middle-class and even a few wealthy Black neigbhorhoods. I didn't see anything unusual about the show.

I used to hear and read about how "unrealistic" it was and couldn't figure out what people were talking about as I saw plenty of wealthy Black families who went to the opera, museums, traveled, ect.....

It wasn't until I got older and started traveling around the nation that I realized that in most places Black people didn't live as good as they did in placed like Detroit, Chicago, and Atlanta where there are large concentrations of Black wealth.

I went to the West Coast and parts of the midwest and would see droves of Black people on the street begging while White people in suits with briefcases would walk by them smiling and tossing change. I'd point this out to other Black people and they'd smile and shrug like there was nothing unusual about it.

But that was 20 years ago.

Sadly, even in cities like Chicago and Atlanta that were traditional strongholds for the Black middleclass....the many of the youth are losing much of what their grandparents fought for and earned.

If I were a betting man, I'd be willing to bet of the 22% of Black boys who graduated from highschool on time the majority of THEM were probably from African and Carribean families.

I'm reading 2 books right now:

1. A collection of essays by Emerson

2. Russell Simmons' book "Do You".

I didn't know the brother practiced Yoga.

Troy

Ofcourse I picked the definitions that supported what I'm saying, lol.

Never the less the definition DOES exist.

I didn't make it up, therefore it is likely a fact and further evidence that I used to support my argument that race is real.

I agree totally that we should treat people on the basis of fairness and justice.

Business discovered this a long time ago.

But we still need classifications if not to point out injustices in society then atleast to give the police a description of a suspect.

If we didn't have race, then how would we describe a White man who snatched a purse?

"It was a pinkish-looking man with a skinny nose and stringy yellow hair, he went dat-a-way"

Now I'll continue to say that perhaps the CLASSIFICATIONS and DIVISIONS of race are bogus man made concoctions....which is why they keep changing every decade as you correctly pointed out.

But the fact that race exists isn't bogus.

It's a biological and undeniable fact supported not only socially but scientifically and academically.

Now the case for Obama is simple, he's both Black AND White.

That's his race....mixed.

However ethnicly speaking he's an AFRO-American, meaning an American of African descent.

"Anyway, please leave Honey Boo Boo alone. She's only a child."

Someone should tell the producers at TLC this.

Stop the child exploitation.

The reason I posted that article was to illustrate how some White men are ready to stand and defend the honor of thier society and the image of their people.

I ask the questions......

Where are the Black men who are just as morally outraged at all these racist talk shows like Jerry Springer and Kyle Jeremy who routinely seek to humilitate our people before the world?

Where are the Black women who rather than finding this garbage entertaining would be just as outraged and would clap for, praise, and massage the back of the strong brothers who stand up to defend her honor and the collective honor of thier community?

Let's not forget the role all these chemicals and preservatives they are putting in so many foods today are playing in the development of women of all races but particularly in women of color.

Whether one goes to the 'hood, the barrio, or the reservation....it doesn't take long to notice that the same foods being eaten by white women seem to affect Black, Brown, and Native women to a far greater extent regardless of the amount they're eating.

The same foods that are causing so many women to be obese most likely threw them into puberty at an early age.

I don't give a damn how much she eats, no woman naturally weighs 400+ pounds.

If she does, there's something wrong with her metabolism or there's something in the food she's eating that's not breaking down properly in her body.

Troy, rather than destroy the integrity of Nah's thread on "thickness" I figured I'd start this thread to continue our discussion on race and whether or not it's a social construct.

"Pioneer, once the human genome was sequenced it became plain to everyone that there is only one race of people on planet earth. Race is indeed, an arbitrary social construct.

In fact I wish our government would get out of the business of using it."

I believe that humans are all of the same SPECIES, but definately of different races/breeds.

Let's examine the 2 terms seperately out of the context of this conversation:

Social Construct:

a social mechanism, phenomenon, or category created and developed by society; a perception of an individual, group, or idea that is 'constructed' through cultural or social practice

http://dictionary.re...ocial construct

According to this definition, a social construct is something that is both created and developed by society. In other words, God or "nature" if you will didn't create it but it was created as a result of human ideology.

Race:

2 a : a family, tribe, people, or nation belonging to the same stock

b : a class or kind of people unified by shared interests, habits, or characteristics

3 a : an actually or potentially interbreeding group within a species; also : a taxonomic category (as a subspecies) representing such a group

b : breed

c : a category of humankind that shares certain distinctive physical traits

http://www.merriam-w...dictionary/race

According to definition 2a , 3b, and 3c.....race is indeed about PHYSICAL traits, things that are not created from the mind of humans but are genetic in origin and come from God Himself or atleast nature.

Now what you said about the government getting out of the business of distinguising races....I actually entertained that idea for a while. However this is the common practice in a lot of Latin American nations, especially Cuba. Where they just say everyone is "Cubano" or "Puerto Ricano"....in other words, they seek to unite their nation of the basis of culture rather than race.

The problem with this is, in a society where race isn't definied it's too easy to practice racial discrimination without a way to prove it.

In many if not most Latin American nations, people of African and Indian decent are heavily discriminated against but since they don't consider themselves Black or Indian but "Columbian" or "Venuzualan" they don't have the words to even formulate let alone articulate their argument.

Since "race" doesn't exist in those countries, those who suffer from a non-existant "racism" are forced to suffer in silence.

Cynique

"It has been further suggested that songs, in particular, already exist in the nether world and are just waiting to be "downloaded" into this one by the artist who taps into them."

Exactly!

This is what I'm trying to get at.

I didn't want to get too spiritual too quickly but since you introduced it, I've read so many books such as those by Swedenborg who claimed this.

Many artists claim to get inspiration by using drugs, and I wonder if these drugs aren't used as a catalyst to bridge them to the "source".

Excellent observations!

It appears that Hollywood is producing Black women/White men relationships on television and in the movies far out of proportion with reality, and I don't think this is an accident.

For a long time in America, conquering the Black woman mentally and gaining her "love" (as opposed to the outright rape and sexual exploitation of Black women that had been going on for centuries) has been considered the last frontier for White men.

They got the White woman, the Asian woman (infact, the most common interracial relationships I see in America today are White men with Asian women, lol) and even the Latina woman to a certain extent....but the Black woman has been quite elusive.

Perhaps this is an attempt to show her what she's been missing out on, lol.

I'm not sure if anyone else has noticed that "news" organizations like

like CNN and ABC have actually done entire shows asking Black women why they have remained so loyal to Black men and why don't they explore their options.

I haven't seen shows like this targeted to any other racial group of women.

Cynique

I've also heard the view that race is some sort of artificial "social construct".....lol.

In my opinion that view is about as valid as saying that sex/gender itself is a "social/political construct" or that childhood and adulthood is socially constructed.

Race is not only real (as most 3 year olds and even some animals even animals can recognize), but it's biological and hereditary.

Maybe the CLASSIFICATIONS are off but the fact that race is real is undeniable in my opinion.

A Wolof in Senegal may look different than a Masai from Kenya but they are far more similar to eachother than a blonde blue eyed Teuton from Germany.

As quiet as it's kept among many East Africans in places like Somalia and Ethiopia, there is evidence that even many of those people are "mixed" with early Semitic ancestors who migrated down there from the Middle East.

There is still friction between the darker skinned Bantus of Ethiopia and Somalia with thier kinky hair and thick noses and the lighter skinned curlier headed peoples we typically associate with those nations. The Bantu people who tend to live in the mountains claim they are the original people of the area and these other people are migrants from the North who came down centuries ago and began making slaves of their people.

If Whites did come from a darker race of ancestors these ancestors probably would most likely be from the Indian sub-continent where we find Blacks like the Tamils with thier straight hair and keen features, traits you find predominate in the White race.

I have a question for writers............

I've heard many times from artists whether they are musicians, painters, or writers, that the best among them have been known to get much of their inspiration from some mysterious place "other than themselves".

They are said to get them from some sort of unknown spiritual or cosmic realm that flashes ideas in their minds through dreams, visions, and other modes.

How much is this the case from your personal experiences and from observing other artists that you know?

Does much of your work come in a "flash" of inspiration from some unknown spiritual place?

Troy

Yes, most Africans I know tend to be very successful.

They tend to be very family oriented which provides a decent and stable environment for children to excel in academically.

I remember at the highschool I went to it was over 75% Black but there were only a few African (West African) students there and they were not only on the honor roll but were on debate teams and involved in just about every progressive program the school had to offer, lol.

It's interesting to me how Africans and West Indians are constantly being left out when they want to talk about race and test scores in America. Most African students do just as well as Koreans, Indians, and other so-called "model minorities" that society likes to point to as examples of achievement.

Speaking of diet and obesity, I really think that when Black people adopt a diet that is more native to us biologically (less animal fats and more fresh fruits and vegetables and fish) I think it helps us not only physically but intellectually.

You're so right about how so many people love this trash.

I think it's because some people have so much turmoil in thier lives and have such low self worth that they actually find enjoyment in others pain.

They find entertainment in watching people whose lives are more despicable than thier own.

I respect freedom of speech and expression but I also believe that these type of shows keep lowering the bar.....lowering the standard so that those who don't want to do anything in the first place now have an excuse to settle down lower and lower and lower.

Kind of like the baggy pants and long white t-shirts was a blessing for people who were sloppy and too lazy to dress up in the first place, lol.

35 years ago if a person wasn't married with children, a house, and a steady job by age 40 society thought something was wrong with them.

If they just lived in an apartment as opposed to a house......older relatives would be pulling them to the side and asking them when will they finally get thier life together.

Now you have single mothers raising thier children in cheap motel rooms and healthy young men who bounce from thier mother's house to thier sister's home to a girlfriend's home sleeping on couches and raiding the fridge before they get kicked out.

They think this behavior is not only acceptable but normal because they along with millions of other Americans tune in and see it on a daily basis from these talk shows.

You know, I actually read "through" her book years ago when it first came out and admittedly some of what I found in it was quite shocking, but it also had a lot of truth in it. Especially with regards to family and child rearing.

IF this is the same book I'm thinking about.

She may have another book out about how to raise Black children.......

She talked about things that I've actually seen growing up but for some reason didn't make their way in mainstream textbooks on parenting and child psychology from White experts.

Like how Black children will sometimes play games and test you to see how mentally strong you are and how far they can go with you.

I've seen Black children do this at home with their parents, I've also seen them do this at school with teachers and other authority figures and I even did it myself occasionaly, although not to my parents.

It's as if it's a big psychological game well thought out in their young minds and they'll laugh and grin about getting away with punking out an adult if allowed to do so.

I just don't read of this type of behavior or any solution to it in mostly White text books.

So far, the only other place I read of this has been in a couple of ASIAN books on parenting.

And Asians themselves have told me that Black children and Asian children start off similar to eachother in playing these little mind games in the family and in society, but Asian parents have well established systems for checking them and properly correcting children before they get set in the wayward ways.

Or sometimes they may teach the child how to turn around and use that cleverness in a more constructive way such as business.

Troy

Lol....

Yes sir, I love me some short women fat or slim.

If me and you are sitting somewhere chilling one day and a fat midget toddles by.....you better hurry up and find something else to do for the rest of the day!

Regarding bone density, I don't make the claim that Black women have denser bones based on visual observation. My claims are based on the science of the medical community that confirms this: http://www.niams.nih.gov/Health_Info/Bone/Osteoporosis/Background/default.asp

http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/82/2/429.full

http://depts.washington.edu/bonebio/bonAbout/race.html

I haven't been to Africa but I've met quite a few African women from all over the continent and although East African women tend to have a slimmed bone structure and straighter hair than West Africans, compared to White women thier butts are still bigger and higher and thier hair strands are still "thick" like other Black women even if the structure of the hair is straight or wavey like White women's.

Now ofcourse there are exceptions.

I used to live in Pennsylvania near an Amish community where those Whites don't believe in altering their bodies or hair in any way and you'll see some with blonde but kinky almost nappy hair.....lol. I've seen jet Black people with naturally green eyes. So ofcourse if the genes are there you'll find Black women with narrow hips and flat butts as you're find Black people who are actually White (albino) or have blue eyes. But that's not the norm from my observations.

I agree with you about the lack of exercise and poor diet being a major problem and we shouldn't justify it by calling people "healthy" when often times they are far from it.

Some of our people are masters at making excuses for inexcusable behavior.

Nah'Sun

If you wanna keep it funky, all races come from Black people

The first Asians like the Dravidians and the "Untouchables" of India as well as the early Native Americans were documented as Negroid

But that’s for another discussion

Well that's another good discussion that I'd like to participate in if it ever jumps off because I've been entertaining this idea for years.

I say there are actually 2 Black races.

2 separate races, but both Black in color....one from the African continent and the other from the Indian subcontinent.

I believe that the Elamites and other original peoples who populated the Middle East before Caucasian tribes came down and mixed with or replaced them were Blacks either of the Indian Dravidian/Tamil type or of a Black type that may have been the common ancestor of BOTH races of Blacks African and Indian before they split and went their separate ways.

Cynique

Yes, I agree with you Pioneer - to a degree. Mexicans are managing to survive by using the system, but they are not beating it as they hover together, afraid to assert themselves, working at low wage jobs, living in constant fear of immigration authorities. The same is true of black people, when it comes to getting over on the welfare plantation. But anytime you are totally dependent on the charity of the government, then you are at its mercy. And this is what The System is designed to do. The underclasses wield no power. They are enslaved to the perks that rob them of their initiative.

Not only that, but I've learned that there are certain spiritual laws that can not be violated without there usually being a consequence.

If you look at people are are always begging, borrowing, and trying to get something for nothing....they're are alway broke and don't have anything; which keeps them in that position.

I've noticed that they rarely give charity while those who are the wealthiest tend to give plenty of thier own will.

Too many people of color both AfroAmerican and Latino are on the receiving end of charity and other people's good will thinking their "slick" and getting over when they are really conditioning themselves and their children to be scavengers living on the bottom of society.

Yes, shiftlessness does plague the black race. And since nobody knows how to eliminate it, disillusionment sets in. Everybody shoots me down when I say this, but I still think most of our problems stem back to the wanton breeding on the part of young single black women and their poor parenting skills. Most people want to blame it on something else.

Yes sir, I believe immorality is the greatest problem in the Black community today and all the other problems STEM from this main problem.

Take illiteracy and poor academic scores for example.....

It's not like Black students spend 10 hours a day sweating over text books at the dining room table trying to learn math and science but just can't comprehend the words or remember them. Most don't even bother to study at all thinking they learned all they need to know in the class room; and most of those who do bother to study have the radio or television on or are on the phone and aren't focused enough to study in silence the way most Korean and Indian students do. And these habits show up in poor grades and lack of higher degrees.

This problem doesn't come from a slow brain which is an intellectual problem, but from laziness and misplaced priorities which is an ethical/moral problem of personal character.

As long as immorality and unethical behavior in the AfroAmerican community is supported and encouraged, expect the problems to continue.

Troy

_{Pioneer, that last statement about African and middle eastern women's bone structures being suitable to handling more weight in a healthy way is interesting. Where did you learn this? I wonder if this "idea" is were "big boned" came from?}

I learned this simply from observation having traveled around the nation and in some countries outside the nation.

I've observed that women of African (which includes a large portion of Latino women) and Middle Eastern (many of whom are of African ancestry themselves) decent tend to have wider hips, larger butts, and denser bones than White women and East Asian (Chines, Korean, Japanese) women regardless of diet, exercise, ect....

It's just genetic.

Although the term "big boned" is often used as an excuse by many women to justify being fat and even obese when clearly it's more than their "bones" that's big....lol...there is some truth to this.

Even most doctors agree that Black and Arab women are less likely to get osteoporosis due to their denser bone structure.

_{In all seriousness, we need to be very careful about how we view excess weight, without boring you with stats. Diabetes, and heart disease, runs rampant in our community. While we embrace thinckness (whatever that means), we also embracing serious health issues...}

To be honest with you, I like SHORT women.....fat or skinny, lol.

My preferences tend to go more towards height than weight, so I'm not putting that much money down on this fight anyway, just my 2 cents.

However, from my observations when Black women get too slim or get as slim as White women can get....often times they tend to be too "hard" or muscular.

I'd rather a woman have a soft round belly than a hard six-pack.

I'd rather her have soft arms with just a little flab on them than muscular biceps with that vein running through them.

Notice how Levine called it the "decay of Western Civilization"?

This isn't the first time that term was used.

It's used when describing The Jersey Shore also.

Pat Buchanan uses it for any subject that depicts White people in a less than flattering light.

Infact, almost any television show or movie that comes on depicting White people in an ignorant or savage manner is usually attacked as contributing to the decadence or destruction of Western civilization....(read: White civilization).

The question I have is when you have shows like Jerry Springer and Kyle Jeremy and Maury Povich and others too numerous to name who routinely show Black people cussing and fighting and raping and abandoning their children......out right humiliating and exploiting the most ignorant of our people on a daily basis....where is the criticism of these shows?

http://www.huffingto..._n_2231572.html

Adam Levine Bashes 'Here Comes Honey Boo Boo,' Calls It 'Decay Of Western Civilization'

"Here Comes Honey Boo Boo" may have an impressive fan base, but Adam Levine is not impressed.

"Seriously, Honey Boo Boo is the DECAY of Western civilization," the Maroon 5 frontman and "American Horror Story" actor told "GQ." "Just because so many people watch the show doesn't mean it's good.

So many people witness atrocities and can't take their eyes away from them, but that doesn't mean they're good. That show is literally The. Worst. Thing. That's. Ever. Happened. It's complete f***-ng ignorance and the most despicable way to treat your kids. F*** those people. You can put that in the magazine: F*** those idiots. They're just the worst. Sorry, I'm so sensitive to that -- like, I don't know, man, it's upsetting. Just to clarify, I said, 'F*** THOSE PEOPLE.'"

Although "Here Comes Honey Boo Boo" has been a huge ratings success for TLC -- over its 10 episode first season, the series averaged 2.3 million viewers and it's been renewed for a second season -- other stars have expressed their concern over the series as well.

In September, Joy Behar questioned what Alana "Honey Boo Boo" Thompson would become.

“What’s little Honey Boo Boo going to grow up to be? That’s what I want to know," she said. “She’s going to be a fat kid; she’s going to grow up to be a big fat woman. She is, I can tell. She’s just a kid, but you see the genetics are right there. She’s going to have large boob boobs -- Honey Boobs Boobs.”

The Honey Boo Boo clan had no comment when asked about Adam Levine's remarks.

They not only use certain code words, but they also use demographic info and statistics to divide people and alarm them.

I can give 2 examples of how the main stream media puts out information to divide the nation along racial lines.

1. Every year they put out information about how the White population of America is declining and the Black and Latino population is increasing.

What is the purpose for constantly feeding the public this information unless they are trying to signal those who don't like these facts to take action?

I know for a fact that this belief that the Black/Brown population is crowding out the White population is the MAIN factor behind the anti-abortion stance so many White conservatives have taken in recent decades.

If abortion clinics were only located in the inner cities, you wouldn't hear a peep out of them.

2. After the recent election, the media constantly breaks down who voted for whom along racial lines making a point to show that while most Whites voted for Romney..... Blacks, Latinos and Asians voted overwhelmingly for Obama thus securing his presidency.

They've been putting this information out over and over again as if to tell Whites, "If you don't want this to keep happening over and over you had better make haste and do something about it"

To some, this information makes it look as if people of color are "conspiring" against Whites.

Susan Rice certainly seems qualified, but she doesn't have the charisma that CONDOLEEZA Rice had.

Say what you will about the Bush Administration, but he had some interesting characters in his cabinet.

If you were doing something and Bush, Condoleeza, or Donald Rumsfeld came on television you had to stop and turn up the volume if only for the entertainment value..lol.

Cynique

Lol, illegal Mexican migrant workers who don't even have a highschool education...

Can't even speak English.....

Have found a way to beat the system and sneak in the world's most powerful nation, make money in it, and even get foodstamps and medical treatment inside the system.

If THEY can dance their way across the border and beat the system, what's the Black man's problem?

The problem is not the ABILITY....the problem is the WILL.

If you were to go to the average local shopping mall you probably wouldn't be able to find a dozen Black men willing to sit down and have an intelligent political conversation with you about politics in this nation and where things are headed.

Disillusion comes from a person actually TRYING to do something or go somewhere but failed. When you don't even put for the effort it's called shiftlessness and shiftlessness is what the AfroAmerican community in suffering from today.

Troy

Thank you!

Back in 2008 I actually thought that Hillary would have been a better choice for Democrats than Obama because I knew being a woman with something to prove she would actually be more likely to fight for Democrat and liberal ideals rather than wasting time trying to reach across the aisles. And it appears that my suspicious were justified. Obama has wasted too much time trying to avoid the "angry Black man" image.

Troy

Like Cynique and Nah'sun said, there is a difference between thick and "obese"....lol.

When men Black men describe a woman as "thick" they're saying she's a little heavier than average but the curves are in the right places.

Now that girl in the photo in my opinion is both thick AND fat, but I wouldn't call her obese.

The biggest difference between being simply thick and actually being fat is the belly.

If the chest and hips/butt is large but the waist small she's thick, but if the belly is big then to me she would be considered fat.

Infact, most medical professionals believe that the amount belly fat is one of the main factors determining how detrimental an excessive amount of body fat is to one's health.

But it should also be kept in mind that women of African (and Middle Eastern) descent are made differently than most White and East Asian women so their bone structures can handle more weight in a healthy way.

Since the beginning of Western history the religious leaders have been in cahoots with the political and military leaders of society to control the people.

It's a three pronged approach...

Those they can't control by persuasion (politics) or by force (military) are controlled by appealing to their morality or sense of reward/punishment after death (religion).

Having said that, if the White so-called evangelical Christians can get behind Romney and support him and other Republicans then I think Black Christians have an obligation to represent their interests in the church and let the world know that White conservatives don't have a monopoly on religion and morality in America.

Whether the churches are getting money in the form of tax breaks or getting direct funding, the intention is the same and hopefully the results are too.

Natural desires that are suppressed lead to perversions.

Most Black ministers are trying to function in a socio-religious system that wasn't designed BY them nor FOR them.

Nah, it it were just about the "thickness" rather than the shape then CURVES wouldn't be so popular. When most men say thick, they are envisioning a voluptuous woman with a large chest and hips and narrow waist. Not a sack of potatos in a skirt.