Pioneer1 Posted April 16 Report Posted April 16 I believe this society is becoming too complex or too complicated for the AVERAGE person of AVERAGE intelligence to navigate through. I suspect that's where a lot of problems and dysfunctions are coming from and this is probably why there are so many addictions. So many people are trying to cope....and escape....psychologically....with just trying to keep their heads above water in a society where they find it increasingly difficult just to meet their basic needs like food, clothing, shelter, and health care. Let alone deal with loved ones who are also going through their own personal problems. I alluded to this in another thread about "endless amounts of passwords". Most people are busy trying to make ends meet, they don't have the time or mental energy to navigate through all of the bullshit that....30 or 40 years ago a simple phone-call could have handled. A good example of this is the very high and increasing incarceration rate in the United States. People of less or even average intelligence have a hard time trying to make enough money in a society that too often requires degrees and advanced education in careers that SHOULDN'T require them....forcing people to find money elsewhere and often illegally. But that's just one example......
Troy Posted April 16 Report Posted April 16 Yes, society is increasingly complex, but we seem to adapt. Most people my parents age never engaged with technology, however, people, my kids, age and younger, took to technology it like fish to water. Compared to the past things so much easier we have a lot more free time and can do a lot more with that time. In the past, we spent a great deal more time just providing for our basic needs washing clothes, and securing and preparing food took a lot more time and energy in the past. Tiday we can just open up an app and have someone else do it — relatively cheaply. Obviously advances of medicine have led to more comfortable and longer lifespans Net-net, despite the proliferation of increasingly complex, passwords and challenges to log into things, collectively we are all better off. 1
umbrarchist Posted April 16 Report Posted April 16 We have an Economic Wargame Society with some people deliberately making things unnecessarily complicated and hiding information about it. Increased complexity does mean more things to hide information about. At IBM the word 'benchmark' was not to be found anywhere. I could not tell you the relative performance of different machines that I was trained to repair. I had to write and run my own benchmarks to test a 5110 against a Datamaster 23. How many adults help kids find books that they might LIKE TO READ? What good is forcing kids to read what they Hate? That is why I try to push informative science fiction. Cosmic Computer https://gutenberg.org/ebooks/20727 .
ProfD Posted April 16 Report Posted April 16 6 hours ago, Pioneer1 said: I believe this society is becoming too complex or too complicated for the AVERAGE person of AVERAGE intelligence to navigate through. Most people in society are of average or less intelligence. 6 hours ago, Pioneer1 said: I suspect that's where a lot of problems and dysfunctions are coming from and this is probably why there are so many addictions. Most problems and addictions are self-inflicted. Has little or nothing to do with the complexity of society. 6 hours ago, Pioneer1 said: Most people are busy trying to make ends meet, they don't have the time or mental energy to navigate through all of the bullshit that....30 or 40 years ago a simple phone-call could have handled. Some people have to work harder to get things done if they cannot work smarter. 6 hours ago, Pioneer1 said: People of less or even average intelligence have a hard time trying to make enough money in a society that too often requires degrees and advanced education in careers that SHOULDN'T require them....forcing people to find money elsewhere and often illegally. If a person of average intelligence or less can make money illegally, they should be able to apply that energy/effort constructively. There are still 24 hours in a day and 7 days in a week. The average person only requires 8 hours of sleep per day. That leaves 16 hours per day to make money. Even if it means working several jobs every day of the week. Mental and physical laziness and bad habits are the main reasons people don't have enough money. There's no shortage of ways to make money in the US. One has to be willing to work harder or smarter or both. Then, the question often becomes....if I'm working every waking hour, every day of the week to make ends meet, when I'm supposed to have *fun* and enjoy the fruit of my labor. The short answer is...you're not supposed to have fun and enjoyment until all ends are met and there is time left. That is a disheartening reality for many people. It's similar to the choice between getting rid of a bad habit or putting in the work to lose weight or remaining obese. How badly a person wants the gains in life will determine the level of energy/effort they are willing to put into making it happen. 5 hours ago, Troy said: Yes, society is increasingly complex, but we seem to adapt. Exactly. We either adapt or die. The latter is inevitable.
umbrarchist Posted April 16 Report Posted April 16 4 hours ago, ProfD said: Most people in society are of average or less intelligence. If the Idiot Quotient tests and statistics are to be accepted then 75% of the population scores below 111 on the stupid tests. But what if the majority of your time has to be spent sorting through bullshit information trying to find stuff that is useful. Just about everybody has to get tired of that and give up. What does John von Neumann have to do with computers? Just about every one you encounter uses what is called the von Neumann architecture. IBM hired John von Neumann as a consultant in 1951. While I was there I NeVeR saw the term or any mention of him anywhere. In some Computer Science books you will find "Input-Processing-Output" like that explains something. The only good explanations I have seen have been in electronics books but I have not seen one of them use the term "von Neumann architecture". It is like information is scattered around so people can play social games deciding who they want to let into the information network. What does that do for most Black Americans? I must have asked a couple of dozen people what "microcode" was.
Troy Posted April 16 Report Posted April 16 Answering @Pioneer1 question on a different level; society is indeed too complicated. Upon further reflection this response adds some nuance to my initial reaction. We have created technology that has poisoned our environment to the point that microplastics can be found everywhere on Earth including most animals. We have likely reached a point where climate change will make the planet largely unsuitable for the creatures currently inhabiting the planet -- including ourselves. We have allowed social platforms and podcasts to facilitate the election of politicians completely unsuited for office --putting our country and the world at risk We have created a technology that may, in our lifetimes, reach sentience, decide it does not want us around, and gets rid of us. We are smart enough to build amazing technology, but too stupid and greedy to know how to use it to do anything but enrich a few people but not improve humanity over the long term. 1
Pioneer1 Posted April 16 Author Report Posted April 16 umbrarchist How many adults help kids find books that they might LIKE TO READ? What good is forcing kids to read what they Hate? That is why I try to push informative science fiction. That's another issue. I won't say "problem" because it's not really a problem for most, but it is an issue. Most children don't go to a library and focus on ONE book or THREE books to read or take home like I was a kid. They spend all day surfing the internet for thier information and don't have the patience to read through the entire page...lol. Too many options/choices. Too short of an attention span. Troy Yes, society is increasingly complex, but we seem to adapt. That's the issue, you say WE seem to adapt because YOU are adapting. Many who came up with you....didn't. Many...aren't. They end up dead or locked up. Most people my parents age never engaged with technology, however, people, my kids, age and younger, took to technology it like fish to water. And who's lives do you think were more stressful and confusing? The people of your parents' age or the children of today? Compared to the past things so much easier we have a lot more free time and can do a lot more with that time. In some ways yes. But it really depends on the individual In Michigan atleast, I grew up watching most adults support a home, buy cars, and take care of their children with ONE JOB. Most people worked ONE JOB for 30 or 40 years with some overtime and that was enough to get them what they wanted. Today I'm seeing many adults working 2 and in some cases 3 jobs and don't have nearly as much as the adults with I saw working one job had 30 or 40 years ago. Obviously advances of medicine have led to more comfortable and longer lifespans Are you sure people are actually living longer than they did....100 years ago. Or is that a calculated "average"? And speaking of advances in medicine.... Do you think the general public in the United States is HEALTHIER with LESS CHRONIC DISEASES than when you were a kid? When I was a kid maybe 2 or 3 kids in a class room had asthma and only 2 or 3 in an entire school had Autism. Today...sheeeyid. So many kids have Autism they don't even bother PUTTING them in separate classes anymore. So what diseases have they actually "cured" in the past 70 years? ProfD Most people in society are of average or less intelligence. Correct. Most problems and addictions are self-inflicted. Has little or nothing to do with the complexity of society. I'll agree. However both self-inflicted problems and addictions are a result of IGNORANCE. People made choices without fully understanding and considering or even knowing the consequences of their actions. That's where the intelligence (and experience) factor comes in. But most people use hard drugs to ESCAPE their Reality. Often times they feel that what they're going through in life is so difficult or hard that...it's either use that as an escape or suicide. Some people have to work harder to get things done if they cannot work smarter. True. But laziness and taking the easy way is part of human nature and most of the time they're NOT going to work harder regardless of how smart they are or aren't. I know what you say..."too bad"...but it's not that simple. In my opinion they SHOULDN'T have to work harder to achieve CERTAIN things. If a person of average intelligence or less can make money illegally, they should be able to apply that energy/effort constructively. 1. They may not know how. Even a person of average intelligence may be steeped in ignorance depending on the environment they grew up in. 2. It may be easier to do that which is illegal. Again, taking the easy road is a human trait. How badly a person wants the gains in life will determine the level of energy/effort they are willing to put into making it happen. It depends on the person, but I understand fully what you're saying and this typically applies to a person of average and above average intelligence. Exactly. We either adapt or die. The latter is inevitable. Well as I said to Troy earlier, many people are NOT adapting. They are dying or suffering in many ways.
umbrarchist Posted April 16 Report Posted April 16 25 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said: Most children don't go to a library and focus on ONE book or THREE books to read or take home like I was a kid. They spend all day surfing the internet for thier information and don't have the patience to read through the entire page...lol. I admit that I find it difficult to imagine what life must be like for 10 year olds today. But surfing the Net does not build a paradigm. It tosses out random bits that do not create a pattern.
ProfD Posted April 16 Report Posted April 16 1 hour ago, umbrarchist said: It is like information is scattered around so people can play social games deciding who they want to let into the information network. What does that do for most Black Americans? That is exactly why most foreigners stress and focus on STEM subjects. They don't get bogged down in what they consider useless information and pursuits i.e. fine arts, liberal arts or science fiction, etc. These people are trying to win in terms of building a better life for themselves. 46 minutes ago, Troy said: We are smart enough to build amazing technology, but too stupid and greedy to know how to use it to do anything but enrich a few people but not improve humanity over the long term. Those people don't give a d8mn about the future of humanity. They know that our time is finite. 28 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said: Most children don't go to a library and focus on ONE book or THREE books to read or take home like I was a kid. They spend all day surfing the internet for thier information and don't have the patience to read through the entire page...lol. Too many options/choices. Too short of an attention span. It's best to encourage children to develop their STEM skills. They will always be able to find a good job if necessary. 30 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said: However both self-inflicted problems and addictions are a result of IGNORANCE. Often times they feel that what they're going through in life is so difficult or hard that...it's either use that as an escape or suicide. In my opinion they SHOULDN'T have to work harder to achieve CERTAIN things. Again, taking the easy road is a human trait. They are dying or suffering in many ways. Some humans require more motivation than others. But, I don't believe taking the easy road is a human trait. Survival of the fittest always prevails whether it is a slow, long and drawn out demise or quick.
Troy Posted April 16 Report Posted April 16 58 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said: And who's lives do you think were more stressful and confusing? The people of your parents' age or the children of today? Probably our kids. The world is changing very rapidly. My kids have seen the number of genders go from 2 to 8. Technology is advancing the a rate faster than anytime in the past 2 thousand years. Religion is in a state of flux. Meanwhile the society is becoming more secular without filling the void left once filled by religion (spirituality, fellowship, a moral code, etc.). 1 hour ago, Pioneer1 said: Are you sure people are actually living longer than they did....100 years ago. Or is that a calculated "average"? Yes, that is what the data tells us. Infant mortality was much higher, but even if you control for that people are living longer more robust lives. 1 hour ago, Pioneer1 said: Do you think the general public in the United States is HEALTHIER with LESS CHRONIC DISEASES than when you were a kid? Again, yes. People used to die from all kinds of diseases we have vaccinees for today. Speaking of vaccines, here is a result of our world being more confusing. Estimates are that roughly 300,000 more American died from Covid because of vaccine hesitancy! 1 hour ago, Pioneer1 said: Most people in society are of average or less intelligence. Correct. I not so sure about that; assuming a normal distribution around an arithmetic mean (average). Half the people would be above average and half would be below. But I don't know if it is a normal distribution. It could skew where there are more people with above average IQs... 46 minutes ago, ProfD said: It's best to encourage children to develop their STEM skills. Perhaps. We reached a point where people could pursue vocations for things that they enjoyed doing rather that benefited society, artists, musicians, philosophers, writers, poets, building Black book websites Today STEM is no guarantee of gainful employment in the long term. Chat GPI today is better at the programming of an entry level programmer and is on the trajectory to be better than ANY human programmer. We need to figure how to run a country where large swaths of the population are simply unneeded in the work force.
Pioneer1 Posted April 17 Author Report Posted April 17 Troy We need to figure how to run a country where large swaths of the population are simply unneeded in the work force. Perhaps El Salvator has beat us to this
ProfD Posted April 17 Report Posted April 17 3 hours ago, Troy said: Perhaps. We reached a point where people could pursue vocations for things that they enjoyed doing rather that benefited society, artists, musicians, philosophers, writers, poets, building Black book websites For a lomg time, the US could support a population pursuing enjoyable vocations regardless of how little money they got paid. Those things were mainly meant to benefit well-off people i.e. folks who didn't have to work in order to survive. 3 hours ago, Troy said: We need to figure how to run a country where large swaths of the population are simply unneeded in the work force. I still believe the US will have to come up with a Universal Basic Income (UBI). Otherwise, unemployment is going to higher than giraffe snatch in the future when AI and robotics take the jobs. 1
Troy Posted April 17 Report Posted April 17 I think universal basic income is a possible solution perhaps the only one. You’re only gonna need so many plumbers and electricians. Basically all office jobs will become obsolete. If it wasn’t for you, humans on this discussion forum this website could potentially be obsolete in a couple of years. even this discussion forum is not really safe. You can have a perfectly reasonable conversation with an AI today so even this discussion form faces an existential threat from AI. 16 hours ago, Pioneer1 said: Perhaps El Salvator has beat us to this i’m sure we lock up a higher percentage of a population than El Salvador. While locking up, people does create jobs and reduces unemployment (I don’t think those incarcerated are counted as unemployed in the stats), you can only lock up so many people before the pitch forks come out.
ProfD Posted April 17 Report Posted April 17 15 minutes ago, Troy said: I think universal basic income is a possible solution perhaps the only one. You’re only gonna need so many plumbers and electricians. Skilled tradespeople will always be needed to build, repair and maintain facilities and structures including the factories that are coming back and data centers that need to be built for AI, clouds, cryptocurrency and other digital repositories. 15 minutes ago, Troy said: Basically all office jobs will become obsolete. Definitely. Most forms of white collar jobs will disappear. 15 minutes ago, Troy said: While locking up, people does create jobs and reduces unemployment (I don’t think those incarcerated I counted as unemployed in the stats)... Law enforcement and the criminal justice system thrives on feeding the prison industrial complex. Those jobs will always be around too. In fact, at some point in the not too distant future, warehousing large numbers of people in prison cities around the world could be cheaper than allowing them to be free. Reads like a movie.
Troy Posted April 17 Report Posted April 17 13 hours ago, ProfD said: In fact, at some point in the not too distant future, warehousing large numbers of people in prison cities around the world could be cheaper than allowing them to be free. Reads like a movie Or a Black Mirror episode 13 hours ago, ProfD said: Skilled tradespeople will always be needed to build, repair and maintain facilities and structures including the factories that are coming back and data centers that need to be built for AI, clouds, cryptocurrency and other digital repositories. Perhaps, but not as many -- certainly not as many Americans. There is always downward pressure on wages which is way this stuff is off shored.
ProfD Posted April 17 Report Posted April 17 38 minutes ago, Troy said: Perhaps, but not as many -- certainly not as many Americans. There is always downward pressure on wages which is way this stuff is off shored. The factories and data centers would be built here. The current administration is supposedly trying to bring that work back to the US.
ProfD Posted May 10 Report Posted May 10 1 hour ago, umbrarchist said: Does failing to figure out LIES create complications? A majority of the 8 billion people on the planet live uncomplicated lives totally oblivious and indifferent to lies. Most likely because they are several degrees removed from the people who control power and money.
Delano Posted May 10 Report Posted May 10 On 4/16/2025 at 7:56 PM, Pioneer1 said: I believe this society is becoming too complex or too complicated for the AVERAGE person of AVERAGE intelligence to navigate through Compared to the past. Isn't that generally going to be true. Do you find society too complicated or complex. Also how would you define complicated and complex. On 4/17/2025 at 1:58 AM, ProfD said: How badly a person wants the gains in life will determine the level of energy/effort they are willing to put into making it happen. There's a quote a like. The master has failed more times than the student has started.
umbrarchist Posted May 10 Report Posted May 10 4 hours ago, ProfD said: A majority of the 8 billion people on the planet live uncomplicated lives totally oblivious and indifferent to lies. Oblivious and indifferent does not mean unaffected. Is it possible figure out which side is less Dumb? Lamalfa is Repugnacan and the Democrats are guessing that CO2 is 5% or more of the atmosphere. Lamalfa is implying that CO2 is such a low % in the atmosphere that it doesn't matter. It has been 3,000,000 years since it was as high as it is today, 420 ppm, and back then it was coming down very, very slowly. Like maybe 1 ppm every 10,000 years. We are now pushing it up at 2 ppm per year. Everyone should know CO2 is < 1%. 99% of the atmosphere is Oxygen and Nitrogen. Most of the rest is argon. I had to look that up. But 3 million years ago the oceans were 100 meters higher. It would take hundreds of years to rise that high, but a 2 meter rise would stop tens of millions of people from being oblivious. But these ignoramuses cannot have an intelligent debate on the subject. .
ProfD Posted May 10 Report Posted May 10 6 hours ago, umbrarchist said: Oblivious and indifferent does not mean unaffected. Everyone should know CO2 is < 1%. People engage in far more reckless endeavors that can immediately affect their lives than being ignorant of lies and climate change. Less than 1% of the population pays much attention to the technical details of anything. They don't read a lot either. The primary concerns of most people are having basic needs met and enjoying life while they're alive. The future beyond their existence isn't a priority. 1
Pioneer1 Posted May 10 Author Report Posted May 10 3 hours ago, ProfD said: People engage in far more reckless endeavors that can immediately affect their lives than being ignorant of lies and climate change. Less than 1% of the population pays much attention to the technical details of anything. They don't read a lot either. The primary concerns of most people are are having basic needs met and enjoying life while they're alive. The future beyond their existence isn't a priority. And in my opinion, society should be structured to reflect these facts. Don't make things too complicated and don't give people too much information they don't need to know or can't understand and then turn around and penalize them for not being able to deal with it. The U.S. tax system is a good example of this. Delano Compared to the past. Isn't that generally going to be true. Not sure. Emerson said that societies often tend to wax and wane when it comes to advancement. Most people think that societies evolve linearly but in many cases a society may advance for 200 years only to end or go backwards 500 years and remain in that condition for centuries more. Wars and religious reformations often causes societies to go "backwards" in terms of science and technology. Do you find society too complicated or complex. Some aspects of it, yes. Something as simple as starting a businesses. 150 years ago...in America...all you needed was an idea and a product and you could stand on the side of a road or street corner and peddle your wares. Today, you have to apply for this, apply for that, get a license, pay taxes on what you make, fill out these forms to show the government what you've been doing. Can ONE person of average intelligence do all that while still running their business? Usually no. Usually they have to hire others to do it for them. Also how would you define complicated and complex. Complicated and complex are similar but separate concepts. In my opinion complicated is something that is subjectively hard or difficult; on the other hand complex is something with a lot of intricacies.
umbrarchist Posted May 10 Report Posted May 10 4 hours ago, ProfD said: The primary concerns of most people are having basic needs met and enjoying life while they're alive. The future beyond their existence isn't a priority. My point was that LaMalfa is either wrong or lying. I don't care which. But the DIMocrats are stupid for talking about CO2 being 5%. So people in positions of political power don't know what the hell is going on. As the CO2 keeps going up everyone will be affected whether they pay attention or not. Of course if there is a methane tipping point in the Arctic tundra, then . . .
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