richardmurray Posted January 7 Report Posted January 7 JAn 4th 2025 I spoke on universal basic income. A year later, is it more needed or less needed?
umbrarchist Posted January 7 Report Posted January 7 Coming from where? Mandatory Double Entry Accounting in high school is too difficult a concept for economists. Of course they cannot figure out Planned Obsolescence since 1950. Ask an AI when PhD economists should have figured it out.
ProfD Posted January 7 Report Posted January 7 Not yet. it won't happen until unemployment hits about 15% of the population.
Pioneer1 Posted January 7 Report Posted January 7 I have 3 issues....not necessarily problems....but issues...with the concept of a Universal Basic Income: 1. Will this be a Constitutional Right, or just a privilege? Because from what I've heard of it in the nations it's practiced in....it's a method that government uses to CONTROL people. In other words..... Everybody gets $2000 a month. But if you say something the government doesn't like, or break a law, or commit an infraction....the government reserves the right to lessen the amount or cut it off all together. Rewarding certain people while punishing others. 2. If everybody has a BASIC income, then that means nobody will be broke or claim not to have enough money. Which means people who monitor your income and wages to sell you insurance or a car or a house can take advantage of the fact that they KNOW you have so much money coming in and will charge you so much based on that. You can't claim you don't have any money or can't afford "this" or "that" because EVERYBODY is getting it so they KNOW you got it. You can't even tell a criminal or mugger that you're broke, because they KNOW you'll have some money coming in at some point and time. 3. It could possibly trigger massive inflation. Again, if everybody is getting $2000 a month..... The rent WAS $500 a month. But since we know everybody gets atleast $2000 a month....let's raise it to $1000 a month! Infact, since most people are shacking up now a days anyway make the rent $2000 a month and let them find a roommate and share a check between themselves!
richardmurray Posted Friday at 05:29 PM Author Report Posted Friday at 05:29 PM @umbrarchist On 1/7/2026 at 4:43 AM, umbrarchist said: Coming from where? I don't know where. I have guesses but universal basic income if implemented is going to be such a large volume of money, the upper echelons of finance and power will have to have a say in it. @ProfD On 1/7/2026 at 2:23 PM, ProfD said: it won't happen until unemployment hits about 15% of the population. hmm 350 million is approximately the population in the usa. ten percent is 35 million. One percent is three point five million. so circa fifty two point five million need to be umemployed. Isn't that number already unemployed in the usa? white people say https://theworlddata.com/welfare-statistics-in-us/ The welfare system in America 2025 continues to serve as a critical safety net for millions of individuals and families facing economic hardship across the nation. These comprehensive programs provide essential support through food assistance, cash benefits, healthcare coverage, housing aid, and tax credits designed to help low-income households meet their basic needs. The United States welfare programs include major initiatives such as the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (SNAP), Medicaid, Temporary Assistance for Needy Families (TANF), Housing Choice Vouchers, and the Earned Income Tax Credit (EITC), all administered by various federal agencies in partnership with state and local governments. As of 2025, the total government spending on welfare across federal, state, and local levels reached approximately $1.5 trillion, with Medicaid accounting for $742 billion and other welfare programs totaling $757 billion. These programs collectively assist more than 72.5 million Americans during an average month, representing a substantial portion of the population that relies on government assistance to address food insecurity, healthcare access, housing stability, and income support. The welfare landscape reflects ongoing economic challenges, demographic shifts, and policy adjustments aimed at balancing assistance needs with fiscal responsibility while maintaining program integrity and effectiveness. the CPS says that only 4.4% of the population is unemployed but that makes no sense , because most children don't work. if the usa has three hundred and fifty million people and one percent of three hundred and fifty million people is three million and five hundred thousand people, then five percent is seventeen million and five hundred thousand. So the metropolitan populace of NYC is twenty three million. If we round and measure loosely, then the population of NYC metropolitan is unemployed and the rest of the usa population is working, man woman and child. that is a lie. And with at least 72 million americans receiving assistance, I argue why is that number less relevant than unemployed? Why is it the horde of mcdonalds/wendy's workers who allow for unemployment percentage to be low more important than most of them have public assistance? figures from here https://www.bls.gov/cps/latest-numbers.htm The way the department of labor and others calculates labor is statistically manufactured. https://www.dol.gov/agencies/wb/data/Employment-Unemployment In summary, since this is the economic corner, the idea of universal basic income being needed with unemployment at 15% is dysfunctional for me. the unemployment percentage must first be recalculated with the intention of honest first and if it can't be then it is time to use the percentage of financially assisted people, cause if you need financial assistance, you are poor. And said people needing financial assistance is already over the fifteen percent threshold you state. @Pioneer1 good questions, financially valid question/issues you raise. all of them are in the debates now, you know. those in power will dictate the details. I can only add what I think on the three questions. What will exactly happen? I don't know. UBI is a big thing financially. it is a game changer so whatever happens, and even if it doesn't happen, will have repercussions. Before I speak on the questions/issues and state my cases. If UBI don't happen. then violence will grow and i guess the police state industry will grow. but I don't see how industries in the usa can continually raise prices and the violence from the masses not reach a potency unable to be contained or controlled by the police state. But, maybe SCrumpt is beginning that era. I Don't see how it can survive for two hundred and fifty years with the source of the violence being industries in the usa making cost of living too high. You can have drones and machine cops and electronic distinct security systems and tagging people to quell violence but I don't see how that can last over a hundred years with the violence inevitably having to grow with the way the industries raise the cost of living. And I want to end my introduction saying again, Pioneer, you and many black people I have heard or read in my lifetime talk about the rule of law. and it has a heritage for black people in the usa. We were enslaved to whites. before the usa was founded. The law, not black violence towards whites, not black fiscal activity when whites allowed, has been how black people have personally or financially grown in these lands from european colonial circa 1492 to 2026. So breaking the law is big, cause the black populace in the usa never had the ability to grant welfare checks to failed black businesses, like the white populace did for whites who completely failed their businesses offer free land to penniless blacks, like the white populace did for penniless whites offer unevenly paid labor to penniless blacks, like the white populace did for penniless whites So I get it.Black people have always been in an uneven financial /legal environment in the usa, negatively biased or negatively favored to us. But 2026 and the coming future, we have to change how we talk about ourselves when it comes to the law. well onto my thoughts to your questions and remember, I Don't know what will happen. yes I have opinions but, we will all see , what happens. On 1/7/2026 at 6:55 PM, Pioneer1 said: Will this be a Constitutional Right, or just a privilege? On 1/7/2026 at 6:55 PM, Pioneer1 said: say something the government doesn't like, or break a law, or commit an infraction....the government reserves the right to lessen the amount or cut it off all together. it makes sense that breaking the law will reduce the income you get. The usa has a long heritage of legal precedence like that especially concerning black people, with one caveat that only in the late 1900s did black people have enough elected officials to even remotely look out for black interest. On 1/7/2026 at 6:55 PM, Pioneer1 said: If everybody has a BASIC income, then that means nobody will be broke or claim not to have enough money. On 1/7/2026 at 6:55 PM, Pioneer1 said: Which means people who monitor your income and wages to sell you insurance or a car or a house can take advantage of the fact that they KNOW you have so much money coming in and will charge you so much based on that. You can't claim you don't have any money or can't afford "this" or "that" because EVERYBODY is getting it so they KNOW you got it. You can't even tell a criminal or mugger that you're broke, because they KNOW you'll have some money coming in at some point and time. Your forgetting cost of living? even if UBI was given right now, if it doesn't come with manipulations to cost of living industries, especially the real estate industry, then it doesn't offer a change in the current situation even if implemented and I argue this is why it is going through this long process. Because three industries will need to be overhauled completely: health/home/food. the health industry keeps going up and up in cost, that has to stop. rents or real estate evaluations keep going up and up, that has to stop. Food costs keep going up and up, that has to stop. IF those three things don't stop going up and up unendingly then UBI will be dysfunctional if not instantly , eventually, once implemented. Arguably all the financial industries including fiscal scams need the door closed on said industries. thus a process. And that goes back to the heritage of financial scams. Again, how much money would black people have if not for white burnings of our towns, white thefts of property and money. how much if not for enslavement to whites. how much if not sharecropping to whites. sharecropping is no different than the financial scams of today. The strongest financial heritage of the usa is financial scams in fiscal capitalism and blaming the people abused not the scammer, whether the scammer be an enslaver committing a legal criminal act or sheriff using their badge/status to evade prosecution of their illegalities or crimes or whomever... including specific types of other black people. Said specific types aren't thieves and drug dealers. Said specific types are black churches who scam and cheat money for the community, black home owners who scam and cheat black renters. black elected officials who scame and cheat money through legislation. On 1/7/2026 at 6:55 PM, Pioneer1 said: It could possibly trigger massive inflation. Again, if everybody is getting $2000 a month..... The rent WAS $500 a month. But since we know everybody gets atleast $2000 a month....let's raise it to $1000 a month! Infact, since most people are shacking up now a days anyway make the rent $2000 a month and let them find a roommate and share a check between themselves! inflation is headed to an untenable place, before UBI. The reality UBI's philosophical opponent is the uneven bootstraps personal accountability model which was always disingenuous. That is how the fiat business model in the 1970s got to this point. The idea of printing your own money backed by your military isn't new, but the usa's white populace in control , in cheap hindsight, made a huge error. It was so worried about diminishing white wealth at the top that it allowed administrative inefficiencies to fester and thrive in at the fiscal top of the ownership/shareholder class till now the entire business community in the usa is filled with welfare recipients, who are completely safe from the bootstrap personal accountability narrative, ala too big too fail. If I look at the usa from the 1970s, the airline industry completely failed at least three times. The oil industry failed once. The automotive industry completely or 90% failed two times. The banking industry completely failed two times. The film industry completely failed three times. The crypto industry completely failed two times. The real estate industry completely failed three times. The electronics industry completely failed once. Many other industries like hospitals or fast food chains have slashed their inefficient buildups like star bucks or some hospital chains. What is my point? The biggest inflationary generator is the welfare state for all the failed firms. The following firms based on their financial history had at least one year where they were completely bankrupt, bankrupt defined as unable to pay their bills after four quarters, and didn't go into bankruptcy that year but were allowed to retain existence through legal but financially uneven means welfare check from the government which the government paid by printing money some sale to another firm who grew its debt to buy the carcass debts paid through the stock market which has in itself unregulated or financially uneven actors who added debt to themselves to buy shares Apple NEtflix Google General Motors Warner Bros Chrysler Facebook OpenAI twitter all the airlines a number of theater chains mall chains starbucks and many other fast food chains am*zon exxon goldman sachs jp morgan General electric universal studios most bitcoins or datamined currencies most ai systems most hospital chains most real estate sony, not even in the usa but i read that it is actually mostly owned, through shares, by people in the usa. many retirement plans, not all but many I can't think of one firm or financial institution touted heavily in media in the usa that hasn't gone bankrupt as I see it in the past fifty years and should not exist today then if one treats all firms or financial institutions the same way So, saving all those firms above is the cause of inflation Pioneer in the past fifty years. Cause whether it is the government printing money adding debt to the federal government other firms adding debt to pay for their carcasses new/old shareholders adding debt to pay for the shares of their carcasses I don't see any financially even reason why any of those firms mentioned above and most of their peers in the usa should exist today. They are all failed firms, and for the investment banks/automotive companies/crypto/real estate industries I was aware for them, I was present of mind to see each of them have a complete financial collapse. So no one can give me any financially valid reason those four sectors should exist with the actors they do today. Goldman should completely liquidated. To this day I still hear black people, goldman got those MIT graduates. Well, clearly MIT doesn't help a financial firm with billions of dollars of transactions per year, arguably the most of any financial firm in the world save itself from receivership. The Goldman with all their MIT graduates went to Washington DC and begged for a welfare check and got it. so... I don't want to hear about some black person somewhere with their few hundred grand mismanaging money and not warranting aid this way or that way. Crypto , again with all the asians , especially chinese, and supposedly smart folk , completely collapsed. Where was china's genious work force to save crypto? Instead a bunch of rich people with the help of Goldman and company, already saved by welfare check, bought up all the crypto assets with debt. again.. I don't want to hear about some black person on a nine to five job mishandling funds not warranting aid this way or that way. The automotive companies who at one time in human history had a over ninety percent market share of the global automotive industry, was given a welfare check by the government. I read ford didn't want the check and was going to refinance, which means add debt to cover the expenses of the firm, but the federal government didn't allow that for some reason, one day I will research and hopefully see why the federal government didn't allow it. So don't tell me about some black athlete who wasted millions not warranting aid this way or that way. The real estate industry has collapsed multiple times and yet, somehow is allowed to be continually refinanced through debt. The real estate industry was even allowed to continue operation in NYC when small businesses were forced to close. why? If the construction workers can keep building buildings while the virus is about why are small businesses forced to shut down for the virus? The real estate industry was so indebted that it was allowed to skip the shutdown that many other industries were forced to do, which hurt and hindered many other industries. So, again, don't speak to me about a black homeless person not getting their act together and not warranting aid this way or that. And my talk of warranting aid this way or that way completes the circle on universal basic income. The USA as it did after the war between the states, letting completely impoverished formerly rich white southerners retain their property and financial accounts, not treating them like benedict arnolds, and allowing them to continue financially uneven hiring practices through jim crow era. the second white european imperial war, commonly called war world 2, letting completely impoverished formerly rich white europeans in western europe or white asians in japan recover their real estate, bank accounts plus giving them welfare checks worth their entire industrial or financial footing today. has saved countless completely impoverished formerly rich whites, and some non whites in the usa retain their wealth through an unbounded debt allowances. So adding inflation for giving the fiscal poor money in my eyes is at the most financially warranted or at the least financially allowable based on recent past precedence.
ProfD Posted Friday at 06:14 PM Report Posted Friday at 06:14 PM 45 minutes ago, richardmurray said: In summary, since this is the economic corner, the idea of universal basic income being needed with unemployment at 15% is dysfunctional for me. the unemployment percentage must first be recalculated with the intention of honest first and if it can't be then it is time to use the percentage of financially assisted people, cause if you need financial assistance, you are poor. And said people needing financial assistance is already over the fifteen percent threshold you state. I was referring to the employment eligible population. The same number of people used to generate unemployment statistics. Obviously, there are millions of people who cannot work for one reason or another. 1
Pioneer1 Posted Friday at 07:24 PM Report Posted Friday at 07:24 PM umbrarchist Coming from where? Lol.... Just print it up out of thin air like they've been doing for decades. ProfD Not yet. it won't happen until unemployment hits about 15% of the population. We're far past that already. As richardmurray suggests and as I've said some months ago, they simply don't count everybody. If the unemployment numbers were accurate, it would be above 20%.
Pioneer1 Posted Friday at 07:39 PM Report Posted Friday at 07:39 PM richardmurray If UBI don't happen. then violence will grow and i guess the police state industry will grow. but I don't see how industries in the usa can continually raise prices and the violence from the masses not reach a potency unable to be contained or controlled by the police state. But, maybe SCrumpt is beginning that era. I Don't see how it can survive for two hundred and fifty years with the source of the violence being industries in the usa making cost of living too high. You can have drones and machine cops and electronic distinct security systems and tagging people to quell violence but I don't see how that can last over a hundred years with the violence inevitably having to grow with the way the industries raise the cost of living. The government can maintain control easily....by turning the people AGAINST EACHOTHER. That's how many smart governments maintain power anyway. When the population gets too big or unruly to keep power over, they generate wedge issues to keep the population proportionately divided and at eachother's throats. Sectarian violence and social instability ensures confusion and little resistance to tyranny. I don't see any financially even reason why any of those firms mentioned above and most of their peers in the usa should exist today. They are all failed firms, and for the investment banks/automotive companies/crypto/real estate industries I was aware for them, I was present of mind to see each of them have a complete financial collapse. So no one can give me any financially valid reason those four sectors should exist with the actors they do today. The reason they didn't allow those businesses to fail was simple: they were and are providing goods and services the nation actually NEEDS We can argue over whether nor not some corporations are "too big" to fail; but there are some private companies and corporations that are too essential to fail. Allowing them to collapse would lead to a national disaster. Most individuals and small businesses DO NOT provide essential goods and services to the nation. If they fail, it wouldn't necessarily ruin the society or over all economy like if.....say.....Ford or United Airlines or Chase bank collapsed.
richardmurray Posted Sunday at 12:09 AM Author Report Posted Sunday at 12:09 AM @ProfD On 1/9/2026 at 1:14 PM, ProfD said: Obviously, there are millions of people who cannot work for one reason or another. yes, but the millions who are unable to work, not cannot work, for one external reason or another, is the issue. Based on the definitions below, when we talk about the black populace in the usa the statistics for employment, don't consider black people in the armed forces which for many black people in small black towns is their only upward mobility black people in prison cause the black populace doesn't have the ability to generate or access labor pools with jobs that provide adequate revenue for par standard of living. black people in old folks homes which has only grown over time. then you take the black populace outside the three above who are considered in the employment statistic and the following are not considered employed black people who volunteer without pay, which is alot of black people since the 1800s. When black people were teaching ourselves how to read the black people who did it for free and only got room and board wouldn't be considered cause food and board isn't money. Alot of the black panthers would not be considered with the school food program. Black people in unpaid internships or training programs, which is many black people Black housewives is not considered even though many black women in recent immigrant communities are housewives. So the 4.4% isn't related to 100% of the populace . it is a percentage of a percentage, that mostly blocks out people who are working. Just not getting money. Black soldiers[who are working cause being a soldier is work]+black imprisoned [note: who actually do work alot still and rarely get their proper wage scale ala 13th amendment slavey status]+black people in home care or old folks[many of whom make other... younger, black peoples lives possible with their retirement benefits]+ black poor people getting food and board doing volunteer work[which is usually off books sporadic and thus not in the polling time]+ black students getting unpaid internships or training[which is very often but is work, internships are work, i remember internships as a student, unpaid, that is work]+ black housewives who actually have to clean the house and similar chores are all not included in the percentage of people considered for unemployment[that is definitely work]. so...the issue isn't unable to work, it is a statistic not including many who do work, because it will show that the black populace at least is not lazy, is full of people working, BUT they are not:) getting a good wage. white man says https://www.bls.gov/cps/definitions.htm Employment-population ratio The employment-population ratio represents the number of employed people as a percentage of the civilian noninstitutional population. In other words, it is the percentage of the population that is currently working. The employment-population ratio is calculated as: (Employed ÷ Civilian Noninstitutional Population) x 100. https://www.bls.gov/cps/definitions.htm#employed Employed In the Current Population Survey (CPS), people are classified as employed if, during the survey reference week, they meet any of the following criteria: worked at least 1 hour as a paid employee (see wage and salary workers) worked at least 1 hour in their own business, profession, trade, or farm (see self-employed) were temporarily absent from their job, business, or farm, whether or not they were paid for the time off (see with a job, not at work) worked without pay for a minimum of 15 hours in a business or farm owned by a member of their family (see unpaid family workers) For criteria 1 and 2, the work must be for pay or profit; that is, the individual receives a wage or salary, profits or fees, or payment in kind (such as housing, meals, or supplies received in place of cash wages). For the self-employed, this includes those who intended to earn a profit but whose business or farm produced a loss. See the definition of self-employed for further details. Each employed person is counted only once in aggregate employment statistics from the CPS, even if they hold more than one job. The following are not considered employment in the CPS. volunteer work unpaid internships unpaid training programs training programs not sponsored by an employer, even if the trainee receives a public assistance payment for attending National Guard or Reserve duty (weekend or summer training) ownership in a business or farm solely for investment purposes, with no participation in its management or operation jury duty work around one's home such as cleaning, painting, repairing, or other housework or home improvement project https://www.bls.gov/cps/definitions.htm#population Civilian noninstitutional population The civilian noninstitutional population age 16 and older is the base population group, or universe, used for Current Population Survey (CPS) statistics published by BLS. (See also geographic scope and reference of the CPS.) The civilian noninstitutional population excludes the following: active duty members of the U.S. Armed Forces people confined to, or living in, institutions or facilities such as prisons, jails, and other correctional institutions and detention centers residential care facilities such as skilled nursing homes Included in the civilian noninstitutional population are citizens of foreign countries who reside in the United States but do not live on the premises of an embassy. @Pioneer1 On 1/9/2026 at 2:24 PM, Pioneer1 said: as I've said some months ago, they simply don't count everybody. If the unemployment numbers were accurate, it would be above 20%. as our elders said in the 1950s. The sad truth about labor statistics in the usa is how they are often cited by many from the mid 1900s to now and yet, that entire time frame people, black + non black, have called them hogwash, the dirty water cleaning the pig. On 1/9/2026 at 2:39 PM, Pioneer1 said: The government can maintain control easily....by turning the people AGAINST EACHOTHER. That's how many smart governments maintain power anyway. hmm I don't think anything , anything is easy. Doable? yes, positive possibility? yes, positive probability in attempt? yes... Easy? never, nothing is easy. well, is any government smart? a government isn't one person... no government in human history is one person, the myth of the tyrannical madman controlling all on a throne is just that,an untrue myth. To say any government is smart or dumb is to suggest an average of mentality which can not be proven. Strong governments are ones in which their will gets applied. Weak governments are ones in which their will gets applied. Gardless of the mental quality of the people in a government, a government can be strong or weak. The war between the states didn't happen because the usa government was smart or dumb , it happened because the usa government was strong , even though it included the likes of Abraham Lincoln, considered by many to be one of the smartest presidents, who opposed the war. Most in the government of the usa at that time wanted war, and were powerful enough to apply to war. The congress in the usa has a majority of elected officials who don't want to do the work needed to make legislation that brings advantage to all in a populace of over three hundred and fifty million people who are not all of white european descent. So they are doing nothing. Now if advocacy movements were getting elected officials in congress to push for wise legislation you can say the congress is weak cause the members don't want to do that but are being forced to by an external group. Be careful giving false praise or false condemnation. On 1/9/2026 at 2:39 PM, Pioneer1 said: The reason they didn't allow those businesses to fail was simple: they were and are providing goods and services the nation actually NEEDS you made a statement, this is the economic corner, tell me one thing they provide that is needed. I repeated the list you can copy and paste and simply write the one needed thing each provide. Apple- NEtflix- Google- General Motors- Warner Bros- Chrysler- Facebook- OpenAI- twitter- all the airlines- a number of theater chains- mall chains- starbucks and many other fast food chains- am*zon- exxon- goldman sachs- jp morgan- General electric- universal studios- most bitcoins or datamined currencies- most ai systems- most hospital chains- most real estate- I will make my argument against any of them producing anything needed. Apple- apple has never produced a needed good, every single device or software they made could be sold off in bankruptcy, and made open source. NEtflix- never produced a needed good, streaming has always had multiple agents and their entire streaming service, including their communication hubs could be sold off in bankruptcy to the highest bigger. Google- never produced a needed good, its assets could had been sold off in bankruptcy or given to open source. Competitors would had bought server systems or software went to open source or non bought server systems went to colleges or universities in a second selling off. General Motors- never produced a needed good, this country has always had multiple and small auto manufacturers, if general motors assets were put up for auction in a bankruptcy, they small automakers or others would claim what they needed and could increase their volume. Warner Bros- never produced a needed good Chrysler- like General motors, see above. Facebook- like google, see above. OpenAI- like facebook, see above twitter- like openai all the airlines- never produced a needed good, most arilines don't even make planes so all their aircraft after bankruptcy can be sold and regional competitors or private individuals can buy the content or it can be resold on the international market. a number of theater chains- never produced a needed good, each theater chain is mostly real estate which can be sold and if not given to the state. the machines to show movies can be sold to auction, private individuals will buy a few, the rest can go to schools. mall chains- never produced a needed good, each mall is real estate, each location can be sold after bankruptcy. starbucks and many other fast food chains- never produced a needed good, mostly real estate, secondarily food machines, afer bankruptcy the real estate can be sold and the food machines can be sold, some people will get nice food machines in their homes. am*zon- never produced a needed good, the shipping aspect is real estate and warehouse machines all sellable to auction after bankruptcy, the financial services are bank accounts which should be liquidated after bankruptcy,the electronic devices + machines to make them+ software can all be sold after bankruptcy or made open source. exxon- never produced a needed good, after bankruptcy, all the oil fields can be sold [ at best each to an individual] the tankers can be sold, their are other oil producers and inviduals can enter. The refineries can be sold after bankruptcy. And if not given to colleges as training areas or broken up into parts for use in other industries. goldman sachs- never produced a needed good, all their bank accounts or financial transaction accounts should be liquidated and the financial software sold or made open source, the financial reports or private information held by a private legal entity for the individuals it pertains too. jp morgan- like goldman sachs, see above General electric- never produced a needed good, all their manufacturing plants for their various parts can be sold to auction after bankruptcy, anything not sold can go to colleges in an open grab. their real estate sold after bankruptcy. their computer software or server systems can be sold or made open source. universal studios- like waner bros, see above most bitcoins or datamined currencies- never produced a needed good, all the real estate can be sold after bankruptcy, all the server systems can be sold individually to unique buyers and then secondarily in components, the individual servers in the chain, and then thirdly in elements, the parts that make up each individual server unit. most ai systems- like bitcoin, see above most hospital chains- never produced a needed good, most city or state governments have government hospitals so after bankruptcy all the medical technology can be bought by the state to use in government run hospitals or in auction to private individuals or boutique hospitals, the real estate can be sold or demolished for spare land, paid for by the hospital. most real estate- never produced a needed good, after bankruptcy , all real estate that is not paid for can be taken by the government and resold or demolished paid for as a tax write off based on the cost of destruction and taken off the debt by the bankrupt realtor. Not one firm I listed in my eyes makes a needed good. Not one. Some will say , what about investors to all of these failures. Bankruptcy denies the possibility of investors to recoup any investment. And I say, an old song by a white man exist, which is what those investors need to learn. Knowing or Learning how to lose is apart of financial reality, fighting it is a mistake On a warm summer's evening On a train bound for nowhere I met up with a gambler We were both too tired to sleep So we took turns a-staring Out the window at the darkness 'Til boredom overtook us And he began to speak He said, "Son, I've made a life Out of readin' people's faces Knowing what the cards were By the way they held their eyes So if you don't mind my saying I can see you're out of aces For a taste of your whiskey I'll give you some advice" So I handed him my bottle And he drank down my last swallow Then he bummed a cigarette And asked me for a light And the night got deathly quiet And his face lost all expression Said, "If you're gonna play the game, boy You gotta learn to play it right" You got to know when to hold 'em Know when to fold 'em Know when to walk away And know when to run You never count your money When you're sittin' at the table There'll be time enough for countin' When the dealing's done Every gambler knows That the secret to surviving Is knowing what to throw away Knowing what to keep 'Cause every hand's a winner And every hand's a loser And the best that you can hope for Is to die in your sleep And when he finished speaking He turned back toward the window Crushed out his cigarette And faded off to sleep And somewhere in the darkness The gambler, he broke even And in his final words I found an ace that I could keep You got to know when to hold 'em Know when to fold 'em Know when to walk away And know when to run You never count your money When you're sittin' at the table There'll be time enough for countin' When the dealing's done You got to know when to hold 'em (when to hold 'em) Know when to fold 'em (when to fold 'em) Know when to walk away And know when to run You never count your money When you're sittin' at the table There'll be time enough for countin' When the dealing's done You got to know when to hold 'em Know when to fold 'em Know when to walk away And know when to run You never count your money When you're sittin' at the table There'll be time enough for countin' When the dealing's done Songwriters: Don Schlitz.
ProfD Posted Sunday at 12:51 AM Report Posted Sunday at 12:51 AM @richardmurray...maybe the white folks will read your dissertation above and be motivated to speed up the Universal Basic Income (UBI). However, if/when UBI comes to fruition, rest assured that Black folks will get the shortest end of it. 1
richardmurray Posted Sunday at 12:51 AM Author Report Posted Sunday at 12:51 AM haha @ProfD white folks read? 1
ProfD Posted Sunday at 01:11 AM Report Posted Sunday at 01:11 AM 18 minutes ago, richardmurray said: haha @ProfD white folks read? Of course, because they are nosey as h8ll. 1
richardmurray Posted Sunday at 01:12 AM Author Report Posted Sunday at 01:12 AM @ProfD I think it is interesting how black people view our own employment as a group in the usa, we all often cite percentages white people made that when you look at it, are dishonest about our situation as a people in the usa. I know i wrote a lote but i do think , if the stranger reads my work, I hope to have a balanced position. I don't want anyone to take my word for it. I want to support what I am saying, thus the verbosity. I think it is functional. To shortest end, let's be blunt, the black populace started its journey in the usa 90% enslaved. Nothing is shorter than that. So, based on Black Descended of Enslaved history which started alongside the white european enslavers. late 1400s in the lands of the people commonly called native americans, why should black people get the longest end of anything? evenness? justice? but where does the source of justice or evenness come in the usa for black peoples, especially descended of enslaved? Remember, white wealth or power doesn't come from today, it comes from the past. A past in which white peoples forebears killed First Peoples and took their land and Enslaved Black folk. Giving them a huge mountain of generational wealth that they made sure they kept for themselves. Wealth that had nothing to do with the USA. I know you know the history. But, Remember, Black wealth or power comes from today, not the past. First Peoples wealth or power comes from today, not the past. In the past meaning late 1400s to mid 1900s 90% of black wealth in the european colonies that preceded the usa or the usa itself was taken/burned/destroyed/stolen by whites. All 90% of DOSers have from our past is our spirit or will , no financial inheritance. Half of all whites have an inheritance which stems from the past. So yes, a shortest end, but what else could it be, if anyone is honest about the history of black people in the usa or the white european colonies that preceded it? Remember financially, black people's overall condition didn't change at all with the revolutionary war. our condition was the same from 1492 to 1865. Then we had jim crow from 1865 to 1980. from 1980 to 2026 is 46 years. 46 years of being in a situation white people were in from 1492. That isn't an even situation, financially. 600 years of total white communal opportunity can not be equivalenced with 46 years of majority black communal activity? 1 minute ago, ProfD said: Of course, because they are nosey as h8ll. well done:)
Pioneer1 Posted Sunday at 02:53 PM Report Posted Sunday at 02:53 PM richardmurray hmm I don't think anything , anything is easy. Doable? yes, positive possibility? yes, positive probability in attempt? yes... Easy? never, nothing is easy. well, is any government smart? a government isn't one person... no government in human history is one person, the myth of the tyrannical madman controlling all on a throne is just that,an untrue myth. To say any government is smart or dumb is to suggest an average of mentality which can not be proven. Smart and dumb are relative to what the subject is being compared to. If a group of people had enough sense to establish control over the masses (the very definition OF a government) then they were obviously smart, compared TO those masses. you made a statement, this is the economic corner, tell me one thing they provide that is needed. I repeated the list you can copy and paste and simply write the one needed thing each provide. Apple- technology/communication/information NEtflix- entertaiment Google- information/communication General Motors- transportation/standard of living Warner Bros- entertainment Chrysler- transportation/standard of living Facebook- communication/information/entertainment OpenAI- information/communication twitter- communication/entertainment all the airlines- mass transportation a number of theater chains- entertainment mall chains- entertainment/standards of living starbucks and many other fast food chains- standards of living am*zon- industry/communication/standards of living exxon- energy goldman sachs- finance/standards of living jp morgan- finance/standards of living General electric- engery/standard of living universal studios- entertainment most bitcoins or datamined currencies- not sure...lol most ai systems- entertainment/communications/law enforcement most hospital chains- health/standards of living most real estate- finance/standards of living With the exception of bitcoin and possibility twitter and goldman sachs, all of the other corporations and firms you listed are essential for maintaining the economy and/or high standards of living we've come to know in the United States as compared to most of the rest of the world. They aren't ABSOLUTELY necessary like food, clothing, shelter, and healthcare....but they are necessary for our modern way of life. In some respects, you seem to be condemning the very technology and standard of living the allows you to comfortably get your point across....lol. I had a friend who was a staunch socialist and condemned corporations left and right....but every time I saw her she kept a tall cup of Starbucks coffee and Frappuccino in her hand, lol. She'd hang out in Starbucks banging away on her Apple laptop/tablet running down the very system she enjoyed....lol.
ProfD Posted Sunday at 09:14 PM Report Posted Sunday at 09:14 PM 19 hours ago, richardmurray said: So yes, a shortest end, but what else could it be, if anyone is honest about the history of black people in the usa or the white european colonies that preceded it? Remember financially, black people's overall condition didn't change at all with the revolutionary war. our condition was the same from 1492 to 1865. Then we had jim crow from 1865 to 1980. from 1980 to 2026 is 46 years. 46 years of being in a situation white people were in from 1492. That isn't an even situation, financially. 600 years of total white communal opportunity can not be equivalenced with 46 years of majority black communal activity? Many of us know Black history. The question remains what are we going to do to right the wrongs committed against our ancestors up to present. If Black people are unwilling to kill and destroy in order to reclaim wealth stolen from us, just like Haiti, we'll remain in this position into perpetuity as well.
Pioneer1 Posted Sunday at 10:03 PM Report Posted Sunday at 10:03 PM Being willing to DEFEND your wealth is one part of it. I'd say only one half of it. Being able to BUILD/GENERATE it comprises the other half. Outside of China and North Korea, most socialist states aren't good at generating wealth and producing goods and services. They are good at REDISTRIBUTING them once they've taken them from somebody who HAS produced them. We need to learn a lesson how to NOT be like most socialist systems and make sure we can build our own products and provide our own services from the ground up instead fighting eachother over White left-overs.
ProfD Posted Sunday at 11:30 PM Report Posted Sunday at 11:30 PM 1 hour ago, Pioneer1 said: Being willing to DEFEND your wealth is one part of it. I'd say only one half of it. Being able to BUILD/GENERATE it comprises the other half. We need to learn a lesson how to NOT be like most socialist systems and make sure we can build our own products and provide our own services from the ground up instead fighting eachother over White left-overs. It's definitely both...being able to build, produce and generate wealth in addition to being able to kill in order to protect and/or amass more wealth. We really don't have to kill or destroy other non-white folks in order to be free and amass wealth.
richardmurray Posted Monday at 04:33 AM Author Report Posted Monday at 04:33 AM @Pioneer1 8 hours ago, Pioneer1 said: Smart and dumb are relative to what the subject is being compared to. And that is why I shouldn't had replied. I was foolish in replying to your point about smart and dumb because if we don't see those two identities as the same way, then outside of trying to convince each other, which I at least have always spoken against. I hate proselytizing. Then nothing to talk about really. I made a mistake. I hope not to make again. 8 hours ago, Pioneer1 said: With the exception of bitcoin and possibility twitter and goldman sachs, all of the other corporations and firms you listed are essential for maintaining the economy and/or high standards of living we've come to know in the United States as compared to most of the rest of the world. They aren't ABSOLUTELY necessary like food, clothing, shelter, and healthcare....but they are necessary for our modern way of life. In some respects, you seem to be condemning the very technology and standard of living the allows you to comfortably get your point across....lol. I had a friend who was a staunch socialist and condemned corporations left and right....but every time I saw her she kept a tall cup of Starbucks coffee and Frappuccino in her hand, lol. She'd hang out in Starbucks banging away on her Apple laptop/tablet running down the very system she enjoyed....lol. I have never eaten at starbucks.. oddly enough some generational elders in my bloodline have eaten at starbucks when I haven't. But, the firms aren't necessary Pioneer. The technology doesn't require the firms. For example, If I make a volumetric display system, energy efficient, easy to use,and I successfully start a firm... money is coming my way, if I adhere to the process and get lucky. Lets assume all positive. But , lets say thirty years from now the company is bankrupt by mismanagement, like all the companies I just listed. . In thirty years every one financially capable will use my volumetric display system in games/home entertainment/mobile devices... so the technology will be part of many, not all or most humans[remember most in humanity are not online, it is a myth that everyone is], peoples lives. BUT, the technology isn't my firm. When my firm files for bankruptcy, all of its technology should be sold or made open source. Others will buy it or use the tech in their own financial activities, absent having to pay as part of the bankruptcy. So all my firms assets will simply be bought by others. The laws can make sure it is only domestic buyers. And as for way of life? competitors buying my assets or competitors using open source will eliminate the absence of a market player. For another example, lets say I own a hospital chain. Has achieved a method to recover from cerebral damage or birth defects using acute neurotrophic electrodes systems aligned to human nervous systems through a large language model system. My hospital will get tons of clients and be successful. But, lets say I mismanage it? why can't all our technology be sold or made open source? the building or buildings we have can be sold on the market, and the bankruptcy can make sure the new owners use for hospitals. how has way of life been hurt? How am I condemning the technology or standard or living, by stating the firms that are in control of them at the moment who have failed needed to fail properly? I don't know if you read my list stating how each firm does not produce a needed good and can go bankrupt, because for each firm I also added, how all their assets can be resold /made open source to continue use of technology or maintain way of life. The technology or way of life has no connection to the firms. A proof I should had started with is, all of those firms had rivals who no longer exists and went bankrupt, in which many of them bought bankrupted rivals content? why can't they go bankrupt? Thank you for this. For the economic corner I am very happy for this discourse. Because in all earnest, one of the biggest financial viewpoints that I think splits many today , is how we view failed firms. No firm is to big to fail, and every firm , starting with the biggest needs to fail properly, because bankruptcy allows two important things to happen. 1)an industry realigns correctly with the absence of a bad player. 2) all the poor investors are properly penalized for their bad investment. When I look at the firms I mentioned being kept alive I argue, all the bad investors and actors in those firms weren't properly penalized which has led to the maintenance of a way of life, but not the standard which you suggest but the way of life of bad financial activity. Look at all these industries in the usa today, they are woefully managed, and you think the people who managed them woefully should be maintained. I don't concur to your position on treating failed firms with a save, I don't feel way of life is hindered by bankruptcy, but I bet many feel like you do, which explains a lot. Because everytime these firms get in trouble, in the last fifty years it is the same thing. And I see now why? In the last twenty years the entire private banking/financial industry in the usa failed . In this community we talk about distribution of wealth. That is when it should had happened. Instead they were saved. Now people like you and many others, most likely most others in the usa, say it had to happen. But in 2026, said financial system is still full of errors and woeful management and isn't helping the larger financial environment in the usa. So if not bankrupted and all assets placed to a closed market since some activity is private or delicate like pension funds for example which I think should happen, it will need another too big too fail which you must support which will require more printed money, but lead to an inevitable financial fallout later because the poor actors are still in the industry. Bankruptcy kicks out poor financial actors. Government bailouts/stock market conglomerating don't /subsidized industrial situations don't kick out poor financial actors. And financial actors who are trading the highest brackets of money in my view, need to be taken out more than any other in a smaller financial scale. I will place my list again, in case you didn't read it. Apple- apple has never produced a needed good, every single device or software they made could be sold off in bankruptcy, and made open source. NEtflix- never produced a needed good, streaming has always had multiple agents and their entire streaming service, including their communication hubs could be sold off in bankruptcy to the highest bigger. Google- never produced a needed good, its assets could had been sold off in bankruptcy or given to open source. Competitors would had bought server systems or software went to open source or non bought server systems went to colleges or universities in a second selling off. General Motors- never produced a needed good, this country has always had multiple and small auto manufacturers, if general motors assets were put up for auction in a bankruptcy, they small automakers or others would claim what they needed and could increase their volume. Warner Bros- never produced a needed good Chrysler- like General motors, see above. Facebook- like google, see above. OpenAI- like facebook, see above twitter- like openai all the airlines- never produced a needed good, most arilines don't even make planes so all their aircraft after bankruptcy can be sold and regional competitors or private individuals can buy the content or it can be resold on the international market. a number of theater chains- never produced a needed good, each theater chain is mostly real estate which can be sold and if not given to the state. the machines to show movies can be sold to auction, private individuals will buy a few, the rest can go to schools. mall chains- never produced a needed good, each mall is real estate, each location can be sold after bankruptcy. starbucks and many other fast food chains- never produced a needed good, mostly real estate, secondarily food machines, afer bankruptcy the real estate can be sold and the food machines can be sold, some people will get nice food machines in their homes. am*zon- never produced a needed good, the shipping aspect is real estate and warehouse machines all sellable to auction after bankruptcy, the financial services are bank accounts which should be liquidated after bankruptcy,the electronic devices + machines to make them+ software can all be sold after bankruptcy or made open source. exxon- never produced a needed good, after bankruptcy, all the oil fields can be sold [ at best each to an individual] the tankers can be sold, their are other oil producers and inviduals can enter. The refineries can be sold after bankruptcy. And if not given to colleges as training areas or broken up into parts for use in other industries. goldman sachs- never produced a needed good, all their bank accounts or financial transaction accounts should be liquidated and the financial software sold or made open source, the financial reports or private information held by a private legal entity for the individuals it pertains too. jp morgan- like goldman sachs, see above General electric- never produced a needed good, all their manufacturing plants for their various parts can be sold to auction after bankruptcy, anything not sold can go to colleges in an open grab. their real estate sold after bankruptcy. their computer software or server systems can be sold or made open source. universal studios- like waner bros, see above most bitcoins or datamined currencies- never produced a needed good, all the real estate can be sold after bankruptcy, all the server systems can be sold individually to unique buyers and then secondarily in components, the individual servers in the chain, and then thirdly in elements, the parts that make up each individual server unit. most ai systems- like bitcoin, see above most hospital chains- never produced a needed good, most city or state governments have government hospitals so after bankruptcy all the medical technology can be bought by the state to use in government run hospitals or in auction to private individuals or boutique hospitals, the real estate can be sold or demolished for spare land, paid for by the hospital. most real estate- never produced a needed good, after bankruptcy , all real estate that is not paid for can be taken by the government and resold or demolished paid for as a tax write off based on the cost of destruction and taken off the debt by the bankrupt realtor. 2 hours ago, Pioneer1 said: Outside of China and North Korea, most socialist states aren't good at generating wealth and producing goods and services. They are good at REDISTRIBUTING them once they've taken them from somebody who HAS produced them. We need to learn a lesson how to NOT be like most socialist systems and make sure we can build our own products and provide our own services from the ground up instead fighting eachother over White left-overs. What is socialism is the first question? Pioneer I don't know how you define socialism but the following is mine. Socialism is a multifaceted concept which has forms for each aspect in society designed to create classlessness, or no tiers in the humanity utilizing it. Unlike fiscal capitalism which is a primarily financial idea and promotes by definition financial castes. Socialism involves, financial+ governmental+cultural pathways distinct from each other. Financially, socialism is an intricate bartering system of labor and goods absent currency, why, the accumulation of currency creates financial castes thus a class based system. While bartering only labor and goods and services means each individuals merit or the merit of the land are the only factors in fiscal trading, which can be aligned efficiently in calculated measure. Governmentally, socialism is a military state where each citizen with no exception is a member of the military and thus the chain of command is all that is needed. Elected officials or governors are not needed. Yes each military has a ranking system but it is a false assumption to think rankings have to serve the model in western europe. Culturally, socialism is an eradication of all old ranking systems based on prior heritages for a new heritage of one peoples, with no bounds. How many socialist countries existed in history to modernity ? I argue none. Russia in the soviet era/China/North Korea/Cuba/Ethiopia in the period immediately after haille selassie /many countries in eastern europe who were militaristically aligned to the soviet union were labeled socialist but none were socialist. All of them were fiscal capitalist first and foremost. The soviet union was never socialist. If it was it would had never had a currency or sold weapons or services for cash, let alone their treatment of cossacks and chechyens. Communism is a form of socialism, but it is mostly fiscal capitalistic. Communism is fiscal capitalism with the financial system having the government as the sole domestic company, the governmental system has no multivisive parties of governance, culturally allows the majority populace to dictate the culture. The usa called itself a democracy, where each state in the union had to have a democratic government, a government where the people rules, but the entire souths majority populace were enslaved to a minority? how is that a rule of the people when most people are not ruling themselves? so countries give themselves false labels. China has never been socialist. If it was it would never had elected officials or peoples like the ugyars or tibetans as "outsiders", let alone their financial activity which was fiscal capitalsit in mao's time. It is also communist. North Korea is a monarchy that uses communism to mask its monarchic truth. Cuba has always been an chiefdom from spain to now using fiscal capitalism. Cuba was a territory of spain. Spain was too weak to protect or manage cuba, so even before the usa took the territory, the spanish governor was a chief. The usa took over the territory and the leader of the army became the chief, ala batista. Then Fidel defeated Batista and became the chief. But cuba was always fiscal capitalistic. Ethiopia was communistic, and again, what that meant was fiscal capitalists who killed the emperor and various other former regals by bloodline. But they were never socialist. Now to what black americans [those with enslaved forebears to the american continent[[canada to argentina]] over an ocean]should be doing for a better tomorrow. Well, trying to implement a truly socialist system in the usa or any country in the american continent including cuba is a large challenge. I will not say impossible. But, harder than other options simply because every country in the american continent, canada to argentina, is fiscal capitalistic. Communism is as close to socialism as equality is to fiscal capitalism. @ProfD 3 hours ago, ProfD said: Many of us know Black history. The question remains what are we going to do to right the wrongs committed against our ancestors up to present. If Black people are unwilling to kill and destroy in order to reclaim wealth stolen from us, just like Haiti, we'll remain in this position into perpetuity as well. Is that the right question? No human can undo the past, no human. And nothing you do in the future rights the past. For example, all the money white jews have extracted for other white people or white jews nationalist agenda/scheme for israel led by their zionist sub group doesn't right the holocaust or what happened in spain or elsewhere in europe. Another example, every single human being who laments a loving one who has passed for not spending enough time can't do anything to right that? because it is the past, someone involved is dead so nothing can be changed. The haitian revolution is the most successful action by Black Americans [Black Americans defined as all black people living in modern day canada to argentina whose forebears were forced across an ocean to the american continent]. But the haitian revolution didn't right the past. The haitian revolution made the platform for a positive future, which happened for a while in haiti. The most beautiful time Black people had in the american continent. The fact that haiti is surrounded on all sides [north south east west ]by white/mestizo/mullato enslavers of black people made the long term hard. I argue the question is, what do we black americans want to leave to future generations of us? And the problem is, black americans have never been united on that. We all have an answer to that question. But, we rarely have a similar one, and that isn't even uneven because unlike all others in the american continent, we black americans alone were forced to immigrate to this continent[canada and argentina] and thus our forebears gave us the freedom to choose whatever we want looking forward. Black americans are not beholden to any place in the american continent, if we don't want, not black africans[ africa from morocco to egypt to south africa], not black asians [asia from india, south east asia, australia], not black europeans [from turkey to england] or non blacks, So, this means black americans tend to bicker on what we want to leave the future generations. Frederick Douglass + MLK jr + Michelle Obama or similar Black Americans want to leave to future Black Americans an pan racially positively integrated society where black individuals can thrive amongst all other humans. The Exodusters + Black PAnthers or similar black americans want to leave to future Black Americans regions/zones in majority non black countries where black americans own and thrive, as part of non white countries. The Haitian from Jean Jacque dessalines to Henri Christophe + the Black loyalist who fought to stop the usa from being born, the quilombos orwar bands of Brasil or the greater south america or similar black americans want to leave to future black americans nations, new places for black people to thrive, built from war while secure from war afterward. Notice in each , thriving is what all want. black success is what all want. But, the way is not the same. So, ProfD , what do you want to leave future generations of Black Americans? No answer is wrong. No answer is wrong. But any answer may not be what another black person wants. Whatever answer your give I am willing to help you think about it. 2 hours ago, ProfD said: It's definitely both...being able to build, produce and generate wealth in addition to being able to kill in order to protect and/or amass more wealth. We really don't have to kill or destroy other non-white folks in order to be free and amass wealth. What your talking about is doing two things that don't work together. White americans [whites who came freely, whether invited or not legally or not, to the american continent from anywhere on earth] are learning this lesson now. You can't be the bully + the friend. You have to pick one. If you are the bully, expect violence from others and don't try to cover yourself in false goodness. If you are the friend, expect to lose wealth in the market place and embrace what a peaceful world truly is. As for black folk... welll... again, what is freedom? what is wealth? Now I said earlier I am willing to help you in discourse. So my questions to you are the following When you speak of freedom or massing wealth are you talking about black people throughout all humanity or just the american continent, canada to argentina or just the usa? When you speak of freedom, hoow do you define freedom? is it voting? is it money? is it protection from non blacks? is it protection from blacks? Does the freedom you speak of include integration with non black positively? When you speak of amassing wealth? how do you define that explicitly? is it bank accountS? or is it qualities in the communities black people live in? does it involve financial security for the wealth? All black people want empowerment or betterment, but the key is the details, What do you want for the future Black Americans?
ProfD Posted Monday at 02:08 PM Report Posted Monday at 02:08 PM 20 hours ago, richardmurray said: Is that the right question? No human can undo the past, no human. And nothing you do in the future rights the past. Of course, humans cannot undo the past. However, humans can absolutely levy a debt against those who have wronged them and collect on it. Jews have collected billions of dollars as a result of the holocaust. The Japanese have collected billions of dollars for the nuclear bombs dropped on Nagasaki & Hiroshima. Civil litigation here in the USA is an example of assigning debt to wrongdoings real or perceived. OJ Simpson was found not guilty of murder yet he lost millions of dollars in civil court for the same crime. 20 hours ago, richardmurray said: What your talking about is doing two things that don't work together. White americans [whites who came freely, whether invited or not legally or not, to the american continent from anywhere on earth] are learning this lesson now. You can't be the bully + the friend. You have to pick one. If you are the bully, expect violence from others and don't try to cover yourself in false goodness. If you are the friend, expect to lose wealth in the market place and embrace what a peaceful world truly is. Diplomacy requires a multilayered approach. When it breaks down, violence results. When the dust settles and smoke clears, it's back to business as usual. We've seen it play out over several wars. 20 hours ago, richardmurray said: As for black folk... welll... again, what is freedom? what is wealth? It depends on how one defines freedom & wealth. 20 hours ago, richardmurray said: Now I said earlier I am willing to help you in discourse. I don't need your help in constructing what I think and know and opine. 20 hours ago, richardmurray said: So my questions to you are the following When you speak of freedom or massing wealth are you talking about black people throughout all humanity or just the american continent, canada to argentina or just the usa? When you speak of freedom, hoow do you define freedom? is it voting? is it money? is it protection from non blacks? is it protection from blacks? Does the freedom you speak of include integration with non black positively? When you speak of amassing wealth? how do you define that explicitly? is it bank accountS? or is it qualities in the communities black people live in? does it involve financial security for the wealth? All black people want empowerment or betterment, but the key is the details, What do you want for the future Black Americans? My vision of freedom & wealth pertains to FBA/AfroAmericans. It includes a multilayered approach to everything from injustices committed against our people past to present, reparations and security. Once our house is in order, FBA/AfroAmericans can build strategic alliances with other Black folks as it is mutually beneficial. I believe ALL groups of Black folks should be doing whatever it takes to reclaim that which has been stolen from them. By any means necessary. 1 1
Pioneer1 Posted Monday at 10:54 PM Report Posted Monday at 10:54 PM ProfD We really don't have to kill or destroy other non-white folks in order to be free and amass wealth. ...except for occasional self defense. You know how some of our people get when they see you with a little success...lol. richardmurray And that is why I shouldn't had replied. I was foolish in replying to your point about smart and dumb because if we don't see those two identities as the same way, then outside of trying to convince each other, which I at least have always spoken against. I hate proselytizing. Then nothing to talk about really. I made a mistake. I hope not to make again. I don't want to put you at risk of making another mistake, however I AM curious as to how YOU define "smart" and "dumb" if you see them differently than I do. I have never eaten at starbucks.. oddly enough some generational elders in my bloodline have eaten at starbucks when I haven't. You haven't eaten there, but have you DRANK from there? But, the firms aren't necessary Pioneer. The technology doesn't require the firms. In my opinion, we're starting to get a little too technical when it comes to whether or not they're "necessary" or "required". What IS necessary besides food, clothing, shelter, and healthcare???? Those firms are an essential part of what it takes to maintain the high standards of living that most Americans have come to enjoy and expect. And there is more to come. If you remove them, maybe people wouldn't die in mass numbers however removing them or letting them collapse would drastically reduce the quality of life for most Americans and take away their incentive to work and live in this society. They are not only the icing on the cake but they are the cake...the dessert. That special something that gives America her "edge" on the rest of the world and makes them aspire to emulate us. For another example, lets say I own a hospital chain. Has achieved a method to recover from cerebral damage or birth defects using acute neurotrophic electrodes systems aligned to human nervous systems through a large language model system. My hospital will get tons of clients and be successful. But, lets say I mismanage it? why can't all our technology be sold or made open source? Well first of all THAT type of technology...technology that actually heals the human brain and corrects birth defects....is so valuable and essential that the government SHOULD have it anyway regardless. Once it has been announced that you have technology THAT precious, it should be immediately shared with the government so that it is protected. Now...... As far as the institution who came up with it- If YOU mismanage it...then YOU get disciplined up to losing your job. The hospital corrects itself, and then it moves on helping and healing people. That's how THAT should work. No need to shut everything down and divide up the spoils How am I condemning the technology or standard or living, by stating the firms that are in control of them at the moment who have failed needed to fail properly? Because hospitals and airlines affect and save far too many lives to simply be ALLOWED to fail just to prove a point. Maybe the government takes them over and controls them for a while until they get their act together, but don't let them collapse. Don't throw the baby out with the dirty bathwater. Thank you for this. For the economic corner I am very happy for this discourse. Because in all earnest, one of the biggest financial viewpoints that I think splits many today , is how we view failed firms. No firm is to big to fail, and every firm , starting with the biggest needs to fail properly, because bankruptcy allows two important things to happen. 1)an industry realigns correctly with the absence of a bad player. 2) all the poor investors are properly penalized for their bad investment. But how many lives will be lost and lifestyles will be disrupted in the process? That's the bigger picture. These things have a domino effect. I will place my list again, in case you didn't read it. I read it. Lol...did you read MINE? What is socialism is the first question? Pioneer I don't know how you define socialism but the following is mine. Socialism is a multifaceted concept which has forms for each aspect in society designed to create classlessness, or no tiers in the humanity utilizing it. What you're describing is pretty much incompatible with human nature. There is no society human or animal that functions without classes and tiers. Unlike fiscal capitalism which is a primarily financial idea and promotes by definition financial castes. Socialism involves, financial+ governmental+cultural pathways distinct from each other. Financially, socialism is an intricate bartering system of labor and goods absent currency, why, the accumulation of currency creates financial castes thus a class based system. This society is far too complex to operate without currency. Bartering was good when the number of goods and services TO barter with were under 100 or even under 1000. Today, you have over 1000 different PROFESSIONS let alone the hundreds of thousands of other jobs descriptions and the billions of different products. These can't all be traded at some garage sale or over Craigslist....lol. While bartering only labor and goods and services means each individuals merit or the merit of the land are the only factors in fiscal trading, which can be aligned efficiently in calculated measure. Governmentally, socialism is a military state where each citizen with no exception is a member of the military and thus the chain of command is all that is needed. Elected officials or governors are not needed. Yes each military has a ranking system but it is a false assumption to think rankings have to serve the model in western europe. Culturally, socialism is an eradication of all old ranking systems based on prior heritages for a new heritage of one peoples, with no bounds. What about the military itself? How would it operate without rank; or would it even EXIST in your ideal Socialist society? How many socialist countries existed in history to modernity ? I argue none. Why do you think this is?
richardmurray Posted Monday at 11:15 PM Author Report Posted Monday at 11:15 PM @ProfD ok, 1)when you close your eyes for the last time you want to leave something for FBA/Afro Americans. That is a large group of people. Hopefully you can have a more focused group within FBA/AFro Americans in the future. 2) YYou want a financial return of undisclosed value or undisclosed form to Afro Americans for injustices done to us in the past. Not all afro americans desire said return or feel said return is warranted. Do you accept the challenge of wanting a desired thing for all Afro Americans when All Afro Americans don't want it? if you do, then how do you see getting said returns for those Afro Americans who venture for it? I do think it would be wise to have an exact idea of how much and in what form should the debt be paid. 3) You want a fully comprehensive communal plan,ala multilayered approach. The black sororities/nation of islam/garveyites have each had the closest example of that approach, but all are minority populaces within the Black DOS populace in the usa. Have you considered being apart of or starting a group within the Black DOS populace in the usa, that can achieve this goal and 2? I don't know you. But I think wherever you live in the usa, if you do live in the usa, a group of Black Descended of Enslaved peoples in where you live in the usa can achieve a debt return in a financial form, while have a holistic community that is potent or secure in all aspects of government/finance while a completely legal and integrated part of the usa. I think with the resources I assume you have, effort, energy, you can build the basis of the community your points desire in one state in the union. Nothing is easy of course, but it can be done. All black groups are trying to improve. All black groups don't feel they need to reclaim what was lost through any means. Some black groups are content to the past. I am not saying they are right or wrong, and I don't concur. But, all black groups are trying to improve by all means they can muster.
Pioneer1 Posted Monday at 11:22 PM Report Posted Monday at 11:22 PM 9 hours ago, ProfD said: I don't need your help in constructing what I think and know and opine. I don't know why, but that response tickled me like a feather.... I think because I was imagining your facial expression and tone of how it would sound, when I read it...lol. 1
richardmurray Posted Tuesday at 12:05 AM Author Report Posted Tuesday at 12:05 AM @Pioneer1 23 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said: I AM curious as to how YOU define "smart" and "dumb" if you see them differently than I do. It is simple, smart or dumb can't be applied to groups of people. You accept the idea that a group can be labeled smart or dumb. I do not. Individually , humans can be ignorant, lacking knowledge, lacking erudition, the ability to derive knowledge, lacking wisdom, intrinsic perceptions of life that can only be gained through experience or an individuals natural ability. Groups simply succeed or fail in objectives. 26 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said: You haven't eaten there, but have you DRANK from there? no i haven't. to be blunt, many people haven't. NYC is full of starbucks, but you will clearly be surprised how many don't partake of all these chain stores. I think you have an assumption from whereever you live, that isn't true everywhere else. The one thing you may not see is starbucks has never been cheap. I have never seen the local delis absent people wanting coffee. And my family have gotten quite a few cups of coffee or tea from local delis traveling about. I actually because of a family member went to a place called Mochi's, and that was following them:) 29 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said: We're starting to get into technical matters when it comes to whether they're "necessary" or "required". What IS necessary besides food, clothing, shelter, and healthcare???? Those firms are an essential part of what it takes to maintain the high standards of living the most Americans have come to enjoy and expect. And there is more to come. If you remove them, maybe people wouldn't die in mass numbers however removing them or letting them collapse would drastically reduce the quality of life for most Americans and take away the incentive to work and live in this society for many. They are what gives America her "edge" on the rest of the world. The usa military is what gives the usa the edge and the usa military is ahead of all other militaries when it comes to weapons and weapons systems or security systems. As for essential, again, the firms aren't essential, their technology is, but the technology isn't attached to them. and the market can easily find new buyers. This is the economic corner:) The question is this, why are you sure/certain that if the firms I said go bankrupt when warranted and have all their assets placed into market or made open source as need be would lead to the inability of the services from their assets or technology to maintain an interaction with the populace of the usa absent a large delay? Are you suggesting the federal government and state governments would take too long for bankruptcy? or botch bankruptcies in some way? 35 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said: Well first of all THAT type of technology that actually heals the human brain and corrects birth defects are so valuable and essential that the government SHOULD have that information or technology anyway regardless as to how any private institution want to use it. Once it has been announced that you have technology that important and precious....it should be immediately shared with the government so that it is protected. Now...... As far as the institution who came up with it- If YOU mismanage it...then YOU get disciplined up to losing your job. The hospital corrects itself, and moves on helping and healing people. That's how THAT should work. First the whole point of patents is financial, to give the owner of a patent a fiscal claim on the production or use of an item they made.but patent doesn't mean the use of the technology is open to the government with bankruptcy. You don't lose your patent going bankrupts and you can sue the government for using it absent your permission. Corporations have done this. Second, in my example I didn't say I worked at a hospital, I said i owned the hospital. Private hospitals exist all over NYC. Are you suggesting private hospitals shouldn't exist? And in my example i mismanaged the funds of hospitals i own and thus went bankrupt. This happened in NYC multiple times. It isn't unheard of. 38 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said: Because hospitals and airlines affect and save far too many lives to simply be ALLOWED to fail just to prove a point. Maybe the government takes them over and controls them for a while until they get their act together, but don't let them collapse. I find it interesting that many black people like yourself talk about black people being financially efficient in their activity as owners or consumers while talking about white people, who own all the companies i mentioned, failing to be financial efficient as owners or consumers and yet having no penalty. So you suggesting a financial double standard of bad financial actors based on phenotype? you have to say yes. In the last five years, in NYC, I can recall at least five hospital completely closed. No government takeover, completely closed. The city didn't fall under. PEople complained but it was completely warranted. The fiscal capitalsim in the future of the usa , if it is to be even to all peoples can't allow whites or males to never collapse no matter what while blacks or females or everyone not white male has to deal with consequence. So, finally, you accept bankuptcy followed by government take over, to maintain services. ok. I like that i have found a particular financial philosophical friction between us. You are a fiscal capitalist, but you dislike the idea of services being lessened through bankruptcy. I don't support that, but it is great in the economic corner. Maybe I need to make a list of financial notes from you and profd. financial particulars. I think the market can easily by and continue needed services if warranted. and if not warranted then the service is gone. 49 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said: What you're describing is pretty much incompatible with human nature. There is no society human or animal that functions without classes and tiers. yes complete classlessness is impossible among humans who give themselves names. BUT, the governments that call themselves socialists have never actually tried. Do you comprehend the point. the point isn't about reaching socialism, it is about the claim of socialist countries failure. The countries you mentioned aren't socialist. they are fiscal capitalist. Again, communism is no way near socialism. communalism is really fiscal capitalsim with the faintest touch of socialism. The usa government has always been a fiscal operator. The communist simply made all firms owned by the government. The difference between communism and fiscal capitalism is the percentage of allowance of private enterprise+ the environment for parties of governance. Fiscal capitalism wants complete fiscal capitalism with unfettered private enterprise while the role of government is to act as a legal or security lever against malfeasance. Communism wants complete fiscal capitalsim with very restricted private enterprise so the government doesn't have to bother cleaning up the mess of private enterprise ala bankruptcy, and ideally though only china has come close, generate the free market enterprise environment through government owned business. but soviet russia + china from mao on, always had private ownership in places. As for parties of governance again, china has always had at least two parties from its founding and has I think four or five now. And russia also always had minority parties. But again, this has nothing to do with socialism. This is fiscal capitalism. Fiscal capitalism wants government to have independent actors or parties free to be born and die, which deletes the king from coming through government. Communism wants government to have one major party which through its infighting, which happens often in china's only major party , resists kings. The difference communism is fiscal capitalism with two changes that are not socialistic in nature. If anything the problem with russia was they didn't comprehend how to actually have the russian government as the sole fiscal operator and when I think on the history of General electric the answer russia needed was in them. but they missed it. 1 hour ago, Pioneer1 said: This society is far too complex to operate without currency. I think a solution exists that I have never seen tried, so it can't be proven. But, I don't think so. 1 hour ago, Pioneer1 said: What about the military itself? How would it operate without rank; or would it even EXIST in your ideal Socialist society? Why do you always make my positions claims on my identity? I am not a socialist, I am not a monarchist, I am not a fiscal capitalist, but I comprehend them all. It isn't my ideal. If you had said example, which is the word I used, then I wouldn't have problems, but you said my ideal. why that? To answer your questions I merely quote myself. wish you had read it the first time 19 hours ago, richardmurray said: What is socialism is the first question? Pioneer I don't know how you define socialism but the following is mine. Socialism is a multifaceted concept which has forms for each aspect in society designed to create classlessness, or no tiers in the humanity utilizing it. Unlike fiscal capitalism which is a primarily financial idea and promotes by definition financial castes. Socialism involves, financial+ governmental+cultural pathways distinct from each other. Financially, socialism is an intricate bartering system of labor and goods absent currency, why, the accumulation of currency creates financial castes thus a class based system. While bartering only labor and goods and services means each individuals merit or the merit of the land are the only factors in fiscal trading, which can be aligned efficiently in calculated measure. Governmentally, socialism is a military state where each citizen with no exception is a member of the military and thus the chain of command is all that is needed. Elected officials or governors are not needed. Yes each military has a ranking system but it is a false assumption to think rankings have to serve the model in western europe. Culturally, socialism is an eradication of all old ranking systems based on prior heritages for a new heritage of one peoples, with no bounds. How many socialist countries existed in history to modernity ? I argue none. Russia in the soviet era/China/North Korea/Cuba/Ethiopia in the period immediately after haille selassie /many countries in eastern europe who were militaristically aligned to the soviet union were labeled socialist but none were socialist. All of them were fiscal capitalist first and foremost. The soviet union was never socialist. If it was it would had never had a currency or sold weapons or services for cash, let alone their treatment of cossacks and chechyens. Communism is a form of socialism, but it is mostly fiscal capitalistic. Communism is fiscal capitalism with the financial system having the government as the sole domestic company, the governmental system has no multivisive parties of governance, culturally allows the majority populace to dictate the culture. The usa called itself a democracy, where each state in the union had to have a democratic government, a government where the people rules, but the entire souths majority populace were enslaved to a minority? how is that a rule of the people when most people are not ruling themselves? so countries give themselves false labels. China has never been socialist. If it was it would never had elected officials or peoples like the ugyars or tibetans as "outsiders", let alone their financial activity which was fiscal capitalsit in mao's time. It is also communist. North Korea is a monarchy that uses communism to mask its monarchic truth. Cuba has always been an chiefdom from spain to now using fiscal capitalism. Cuba was a territory of spain. Spain was too weak to protect or manage cuba, so even before the usa took the territory, the spanish governor was a chief. The usa took over the territory and the leader of the army became the chief, ala batista. Then Fidel defeated Batista and became the chief. But cuba was always fiscal capitalistic. Ethiopia was communistic, and again, what that meant was fiscal capitalists who killed the emperor and various other former regals by bloodline. But they were never socialist. Now to what black americans [those with enslaved forebears to the american continent[[canada to argentina]] over an ocean]should be doing for a better tomorrow. Well, trying to implement a truly socialist system in the usa or any country in the american continent including cuba is a large challenge. I will not say impossible. But, harder than other options simply because every country in the american continent, canada to argentina, is fiscal capitalistic.
ProfD Posted Tuesday at 02:06 AM Report Posted Tuesday at 02:06 AM 1 hour ago, richardmurray said: NYC is full of starbucks, but you will clearly be surprised how many don't partake of all these chain stores. Someone has to be partaking of Starbucks there in order for the doors to remain open. 1
richardmurray Posted 21 hours ago Author Report Posted 21 hours ago @ProfD On 1/12/2026 at 9:06 PM, ProfD said: Someone has to be partaking of Starbucks there in order for the doors to remain open. not as much as you think. Think of recent economic history. Netflix spent near ten years absent making a profit every year, but how did it survive? stock market activity/debt allowance from whomever. So, while people are in starbucks, how profitable was it really? how many people really? Look at the streaming model... how many streamers push commercials now? remember when it started, you pay for a service, no commercials. But again, that is a bad business model. The cost of electricity, the cost of actors, the cost of paying for content, the cost for your administration can not be mushroomed into the yearly subscription fees. Old television didn't have commercials because it was old fashioned, that is the only viable financial option. All the firms with streaming platforms have accumulated how much debt? I thank you and @Pioneer1 for your thoughts in this post, it exposes some clear financial flaws in modernity, led by the usa. Look at sports teams, who raise ticket prices. The allowance of Debt, which the usa government itself accumulates an ever increasing rate since the 1970s, allows for many firms or industries that have negative financial practices to get away with it. And again, the usa military is why the debt generation of the usa government plus the privately owned firms registered in the usa is never called in. It isn't any fiscal capitalistic model or need or strategy. The mob boss can't be called in for owning anything. And again this connects to me and Pioneers dialog in this commentary about Bankruptcy. I think it is a highly needed tool to stop the cycle of debt allowance from financial institutions + revenue from speculative stock market activity which alot of times isn't based on the ledger of firms.
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