Have you seen Within our gates from OScar Micheaux?

[richardmurray]

 

 

[aka Contrarian]

I think I might have seen this movie years ago when there was a TV channel that show-cased the works of Micheaux.

His works typically featured the embodiment of the "Mammy" figure, the "Righteous Reverend," the "evil Trickster", the "romantic male lead" and the "tragic mulatto heroine".  They are a good study for film students. 

Incidently. I Just recently finished a book about W.E.B. DuBois and his affair with Jessie Fausett, a prominent literary figure of the Harlem Renassiance. He was, among many things, a big time playa.

[richardmurray]

@aka Contrarian Micheaux never did mammy figures or tragic mulattoes or righteous reverend figures, in any of his films i saw. he did evil tricksters, but they were rarely pantomime and he did romantic leads, but they were human men. 

Check out within our gates in the main post, it is free to view , you will see

[aka Contrarian]

@richardmurrayMarcheaux did utilize these stereotypes in his early films. He made 44 movies. He later responded to criticism and stopped doing so.

These stereotypes, who were not panomimed, had to have originated with some one.

Do you know how they came about?

[richardmurray]

@aka Contrarian 

well you know that most of Marcheaux's films , over ninety percent , have never been seen by anyone alive.  So unfortunately, we only have a small section of films to view, and of the ones that are around today don't show those characterizations. I am not even certain all of Marcheaux's films are known. MAny have cited a list but ... unfortunately, absent a time machine, marcheaux's work like black descended of enslaved history from the early nineteen hundreds to fourteen ninety two is eternally incomplete. 

 

Yes, all the black pantomime characters come from white theater. Jim Crow itself is a pantomime character. Before movies, theater plays plus recorded music was the prime media tools and were very commercial. Race music was huge, al jolsten was a white jew but the larger industry of race music/race theater, which had black writers like joplin, was huge in the united states of america. Such that when films come about they took the pantomime black characters from stage and music of the late eighteen hundreds, and put them on screen.

 

The interesting historical process for me is the analogous existence of Black fictional slave works, like clotel linked below, alongside the black pantomime. 

The black late 1800s fiction is of fictional slave narratives. High John was still popular as a fable, and high john's nemesis is literally Massa, a white man with bone white skin with bone white clothes. Clotel to me is a fictional account but a pure indictment on the white populace of the usa. To restate, black late eighteen hundreds fiction arguably makes pantomime white villains/criminals/baddies. Oscar Micheaux emitted the vibe of the black written fictional slave narratives.

The white late 1800s fiction is of fictional slaver narratives. The films birth of a nation, gone with the wind, song of the south all reflect late eighteen hundreds white fictional slaver fiction literally made as a reply to black late 1800s fictional slave narratives. 

And yes, in modernity, both late 1800s genres are no longer highly read or known or ... majority popular.

Both fictions were highly popular among the phenotypical groups they were made for with some crossover fans but blacks seemed to dislike the black fictional slave narratives as a genre. Whites slowly lost taste with the white fictional slaver narrative. 

The question is why did Blacks dislike the black fictional slave narrative genre. Arguably the first fiscally successful genre in the usa.

https://aalbc.com/tc/blogs/entry/496-clotel-or-the-presidents-daughter-a-narrative-of-slave-life-in-the-united-states-by-william-well-brown/

 

https://aalbc.com/tc/blogs/entry/495-le-mulâtre-from-victor-séjour-two-versions-split-by-an-essay/

 

[ProfD]

4 hours ago, richardmurray said:

And yes, in modernity, both late 1800s genres are no longer highly read or known or ... majority popular.

Both fictions were highly popular among the phenotypical groups they were made for with some crossover fans but blacks seemed to dislike the black fictional slave narratives as a genre. Whites slowly lost taste with the white fictional slaver narrative. 

The question is why did Blacks dislike the black fictional slave narrative genre. Arguably the first fiscally successful genre in the usa.

Films depicting slavery aren't going to be very popular.  Mainly because it does not make people feel better about themselves. 

 

Entertainment is a form of escapism not intended to cause depression.

[aka Contrarian]

@richardmurray: this same TV channel that I mentioned watching (back in the 1960's) showed old black movies from the past that did feature the stereo-typical black characters I mentioned. That's how l became aware of them. And they were "talkie" movies, not pantomimed,  filmed during the late 1920s and early 1930s by black movie producers, lesser known than Oscar Micheaux.

Incidentally, the acting was very amateurish and stilted, the sound and camera work of poor quality. Even so, they were treasures which I hope are stored away in vaults somewhere. 

[ProfD]

8 minutes ago, aka Contrarian said:

Incidentally, the acting was very amateurish and stilted, the sound and camera work of poor quality. Even so, they were treasures which I hope are stored away in vaults somewhere. 

Well, the archaeologists had to dig up Within Our Gates from a Spanish copy of the film.  They had to edit to clean up/fix & translate it back to English. 

[admin]

I'll probably watch this film tonight.  The 1919 film is the oldest known surviving film by a Black man. 

[richardmurray]

@ProfD 

3 hours ago, ProfD said:

Films depicting slavery aren't going to be very popular.  Mainly because it des not make people feel better about themselves. 

 

Entertainment is a form of escapism not intended to cause depression.

You sound like a very good friend of mine, a director, he always says, entertainment is to escape and I always tell him hogwash. I have never felt that way with entertainment, especially growing up. I have never wanted to be anyone but me, I like myself. II have never wanted to live anywhere than the harlem of yore that is now long gone.  Now I admit, maybe having a loving home with both my parents in a small section of harlem that was happy/peaceful/black empowered meant I didn't feel bad about my home or the local area I live in the world. and thus no need to escape. As a brother of mine said, to a parent, maybe he is happy at home. 

It took me years to comprehend how fortunate I was. If anything the fact that so many people in the usa, a country whose majority populace in modernity is descended on uninvited or unwanted people from the first peoples who came to this country to be happy as they were unhappy wherever they were from, find escapism through entertainment says alot about the ability of immigrants to find happiness in the usa. 

 

When I first saw within our gates I wasn't depressed, I was interested. When I read poetry or stories in my contest/ challenges I am not looking to escape or be made to smile, I want to comprehend what the artists is saying. When I look at music, I never forget, mahalia jackson saying she would rather sing gospel than the blues cause she would rather be uplifted than sad and ... I call feces on that. I love black music, all of it, from various corners of the world and all the genres born in the land that is today the united states of america. Not all blues is sad. And mahalia should had known that. But, to your point Profd, mahalia jackson was making the same case , saying blues music is the same as fictional slave narratives, too sad, too negative, thus the need to escape, the truth, escape the things people don't want to hear or read or see because they remind them of reality that they don't want to deal with. Better to sing gospel, and not see the truth of the usa or your peoples place in it. Better to see the huxtable clan whom have none of the problems ninety percent of black people have than to see sanford and son. Even though as red fox said correctly, all black shows are dishonest, including sanford. 

 

But then, we have in the same black populace, black people saying how black people need to want to be president and ceo and all of this stuff. I think the entertainment black people like over the years is telling to our mental states as a collective. 

 

Thank you for your answer, I think , your 100% correct. I didn't want to face the answer is as simple as dismissal of certain aspects in the arts... maybe my variance is i look at things as the arts not exactly entertainment, if something I find funny happens I will laugh but I don't need to laugh de facto ... anyway, I think its interesting. 

PRofd, isn't it a thoughtful dichotomy. Black people in majority have never been happy in the usa or the european colonies that preceded it , at any time including modernity, and yet, blacks went from enjoying fictional slave narratives as the most popular black fiction, to now in modernity not wanting any mention of enslavement in any fiction. The same black people who will say love the usa and their forebears died for them to be president, will then dismiss seeing enslaved to whites, black children tortured by whites in media. To me, that says they are lying to themselves. I start with myself, if I didn't know any black history as a child, my parents for whatever reason didn't tell me the truth, provide me books with the truth , and I was just presented escapisms, I imagine my whole stance toward the usa would be different today than what it is. 

 

As a tutor I always told the children the truth, about everything. And this post has made me think about some of the other adults one time. I didn't think on it then but now I see why they looked at me a certain way... Thank you again. .. I realize now how many black people don't get black truth in their fiction, in their learning. It seems like many black adults want black children to be adults, circa twenty, before black truth is given... and this isn't something derived from whites, this is a black heritage. 

 

I must admit , this topic has aided me in something, hmm thank you

 

3 hours ago, ProfD said:

Well, the archaeologists had to dig up Within Our Gates from a Spanish copy of the film.  They had to edit to clean up/fix & translate it back to English. 

 

Do you know the spanish subtitle for Within our gates is La Negra, the black woman. It is so basic, and a little crude and yet telling. Though I must admit the real story is how a copy of the film found its way to somewhere in spain. 

 

@aka Contrarian

 

3 hours ago, aka Contrarian said:

@richardmurray: this same TV channel that I mentioned watching (back in the 1960's) showed old black movies from the past that did feature the stereo-typical black characters I mentioned. That's how l became aware of them. And they were "talkie" movies, not pantomimed,  filmed during the late 1920s and early 1930s by black movie producers, lesser known than Oscar Marcheaux.

Incidentally, the acting was very amateurish and stilted, the sound and camera work of poor quality. Even so, they were treasures which I hope are stored away in vaults somewhere. 

well yes I know what you speak. That is why i mentioned scott joplin, i love his rag works, but he did race music and it was very financially profitable for him. My point being... The hsitory of black comedians of the usa warrants a whole history section in the history of entertainment.  You have whites who historically are most entertained by blacks or whites mocking blacks... immitation/bufoonery/jestering... the cakewalk started on plantations with black people mocking whites for a piece of cake. So whites historically love to be entertained, ala, made to laugh by blacks in the usa. Then you have especailly in the jim crow era, 1865 to 1980, blacks who increasingly want to escape as Profd said correctly. This leads to black entertainers developing to serve both audiences an interesting style. magical bufoonery. But yes, Michaeux was an outlier, but he also owned his own more than most black entertainers/filmmakers. 

 

@admin 

please share what you think after you view it, I want to know.

 

[ProfD]

1 hour ago, richardmurray said:

 modernity, and yet, blacks went from enjoying fictional slave narratives as the most popular black fiction, to now in modernity not wanting any mention of enslavement in any fiction.

I wrote that slave films aren't going to be very popular.

 

Surely, some people will watch the films & enjoy them in one way or another.

 

Otherwise, films, music, books & other forms of visual & literary art provides entertainment in different ways.

 

Entertainment as escapism doesn't have to be negative in the form of self-hate or low self-esteem.

 

Many people can watch a movie or listen to music & allow it to take them away from their reality for a few minutes up to a couple hours.

[richardmurray]

@ProfD 

well said