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Delano

Astrology - Does it make sense?

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Del I'm not sure you can apply the term science (soft, hard or pseudo) to Astrology any more than you can apply "science" to Christianity.

 

Christianity is based on faith and Astrology is too subjective for either to be called a science.

 

Can you clarify what you mean by "limited by its practitioners"?  I would image everything is limited by its practitioners.

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It makes sense if you understand IT and it's PURPOSE.

A pick-up truck makes sense if you're using it to haul furniture or wood or gravel, but if you're using it to go to the moon or even China...it's useless.
And if you sell it for that purpose....telling people you can drive it to the moon or to China....it will not work and people will dismiss it as useless not knowing it's correct use.

It's the same with astrology..........
If you try to attibute things to astrology for which it wasn't intended, you make it SEEM useless and people will dismiss it not knowing it's proper purpose in the first place.



My understanding of astrology is limited, but from my limited understanding there is indeed a scientific aspect to it.
Just as the moon has influence on the minds of people and a full moon will increase erractic behavior in a certain percentage of the population...........
The stars also influence the minds of people not only as adults but when they are born.

How?
I'm not sure.

But there seems to be a "get in where yo fit in" method to success in life and astrology often helps people learn where they fit in.

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Troy - There ate rules and techniques in all branches of astrology.

There are several branches of Astrology: Financial; Medical; Weather Forecasting; Relational; Nstsl; Psychological; Hoary answering of questions; Electionsl when is the best time to start; Gambling, Planting and Magick.

There may be others but I cxnt think if them.

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Mundane - Geopolitical. Astrolocstion where us the best place to live.

Pioneer - Astrology is pretty robust because it is a language. So you can take the letters of the alphabet and describe things or make new words. The only limit is the limit of your own vocabulary and imagination.

The other interesting thing about an astrological chart is that, it is the combination of space and time. So if I see a chart I can work out not just when but where in the world it us referring to, by the angles of the houses and the planets.

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Pioneer - My understanding of Astrology is also limited and I don't know how it works but I believe I know why it works. Its id incredibly vast. For me it is a philosophical system that had informed and shaped me. There ate only a few things I leave me in awe. Astrology, the human spirit, imagination and Love. There may be others bit ut is late and I am tired.

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Pioneer - My understanding of Astrology is also limited and I don't know how it works but I believe I know why it works. Its is incredibly vast. For me it is a philosophical system that has informed and shaped me. There are only a few things that leave me in awe. Astrology, the human spirit, imagination and Love. There may be others but it is late and I am tired.

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Del there are rules but the application, divination, interpretation or even understanding of those rules differ from practitioner to practitioner.  Besides rules don't make something a science.

 

Whether it makes "sense" far too subjective.  There are many ways man has attempted to understand his world.  Some tools and techniques are better than others.  Some Christians feel Astrologers are practicing witchcraft and are certainly damned, others see Astrology as a way of understanding the universe that predates all modern religions...

 

At the end of the day, the BEST way to demonstrate that Astrology makes sense it to prove what it is capable of doing in a way the is reproducible. 

 

Anyone who questions whether Astrology makes sense after that point is simply a fool or ignorant.     

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Troy - How would you define a science. With any symbolic language there will be differences in interpretation. I believe there's a quote from a quantum physicists to other scientist, "If it makes sense to you,then you dealt didn't understand it." There is an interesting intarticle in Wikipedia about mathematics. I believe it is on the link of "were numbers discovered or created." Which is an unanswered question in mathematics. Some philosophers of mathematics or it may have been mathematicians said, "mathematic(numbers) could be a belief system. Which would relegate all of science to a belief system.

There are some rules and definitions that are astrologers agree on as being fundamental. Whether those rules are used in individual application is another issue.

The christians are right and they are wrong. Astrology can be used for witchcraft, wish raft and spells. The only people who knew who Jesus was were three astrologers. Check out the etymology of Magi. I believe magic comes from. The root magi.

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There's a Dvd you have seen it I forget the name. They argue that the bible is actually an astrological text. The Son dies cor three days then rises. This happen to the Sun at the winter solstice in the northern hemisphere. It looks like it stops moving. When it starts moving again. Days are getting longer. This occurs about Dec 21. Some have argues that Jesus is the Sun and the twelve apostles are the zodiac. I don't have an opinion on this though.

I have to tell you I would love to win the lottery twice. And say how could astrology possibly work. With a really big smirk. I happen to personally know an astrology who has won more than one small jackpots. So we'll see.

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Del The film you are talking about is probably Zeitgeist. 

 

I'm familiar with the quote you referenced, paraphrasing If it makes sense to you, then you didn't understand it.  Sure that was just a coy way of describing how bizarre and differently the world behaves on a quantum level.  It was, as I'm sure you appreciate, not meant to be taken so literally.

 

The mega ball jackpot around here is approaching 1/2 a billion dollars -- tell you astrologer friend to hook a Brother up!

 

I define science as a field of study that applies the scientific method (depicted in the image below). 

 

Scientific%20method.jpg

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Troy that may mean that symbols are not scientific. Which would mean anything using symbols would not be scientific. Since symbols only have meanings we give them. So language, numbers,mathematics and any thing that uses them would not be scientific.

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Del there is nothing wrong with symbols.  Symbols are a great tool.  But symbols and rules alone are not enough to qualify as science.

 

I may actually buy a power ball ticket any help would be appreciated and I'll even share the proceeds off the top of my head:

 

34 - 27 - 59 - 17 - 6 powerball 2

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Troy - I think there is because the symbols are created. How can you verify a meaning, what can you compare it to check it. Its like language translation. You can't verify a definition between two languages since some words ad concepts don't exist in the second language. So basing science in symbols us problematic. There are scientist that will agree with me.

I'll post the link later.

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Hi Troy - Every so often someone will ask with some astrological help with there gambling. I always decline because there's mi good outcome for me. However if you like I will look for an electional astrologer. They specialize in the appropriate time to undertake a venture.

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Astrology is like a crystal ball. It captivates you and provides something to focus your concentration on. Concentration triggers your intuition and your intuition can enable you to intepret what the stars are revealing for you... 

 

Astronomy demonstrates that there is order to the universe because the configuration of the stars is predictable so this would seem to indicate that life is not entirely random which could be an indicationn that there is a way to gain some control over things, but you have to get in sync with certain forces. 

 

Some people who are often referred to as "lucky" have keyed into this, probably without even knowing how they do it.  It just comes natural to them to mesh with a particulart mindset and  turn their thoughts into things. Some even have said that they had a feeling ahead of time that they were going to win something, whenever they have done so. There are many cases of those who have won the lottery multiple times. I think these are people who have somehow gotten in alignment with the laws of prosperity, wherein money follows money once the flow of it gains momentum. 

 

Life is a mystery but presumably mysteries can be solved if you find out their origin.  One law of meta-physics says "so above, so below", meaning that things have to come into existence in the celestial ether first and then materialize on earth aided in doing this by positive energy.

 

All of this is a re-hash of my theories but this subject seems to never go away on this site. 

 

 

I bowled for many years and was never anything but  mediocre at this sport.  I'm convinced this was because I was so busy  taking the correct amount of steps in my appproach, checking what  dot on the line to release the ball at, not turning my wrist, bringing my thumb up on release, trying to aimthe ball over the right spot on the alley so it would go toward the  pocket between the 1 and 3 pins, -  and, yes, sipping vodka tonics and smoking Carpi 100s between turns, that I dissipated my effectiveness.  :wacko:

 

There was one acquaintance of mine who also was a perennial bowler in my leagues.   I say acquaintance because we never were close friends because she was so weird and sneaky and - I was jealous of her high average.  Anyhow, she had no form but would lug her ball off the rack, stand way back, get a diabolical grin on her goofy looking face, silently move her lips, take little bitty steps and  then a high skip before hurling the ball down the alley, squatting while she watched it hover arround the gutter en route to the pins.  Needless to say by the time her dingy looking red ball meandered down the lane it was enchanted enough to score a strike or pick up a spare.  I was always convinced that she had inadvertantly figured out the "secret" of winning. She probably wins the lottery all the time.

 

OK, I'm outta here.  Off to get my PowerBall tickets for today.    :o     

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Cynique - That about sums it up. I recently came scross a statement. Some people are not susceptible to celestial influences. They write their own story.

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Troy - You are right, about the practicioners. I believe divuination can answer any query if properly understood. I also think there ate some answers that can not be given.

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This isn't the quote I was talking about but it is interesting

Innovations in the philosophy of language during the 20th century renewed interest in whether mathematics is, as is often said, the language of science. Although most mathematicians and physicists[citation needed<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed] (and many philosophers) would accept the statement "mathematics is a language<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematics_as_a_language", linguists believe that the implications of such a statement must be considered. For example, the tools of linguistics<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistics are not generally applied to the symbol systems of mathematics, that is, mathematics is studied in a markedly different way than other languages. If mathematics is a language, it is a different type of language than natural languages<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_languages. Indeed, because of the need for clarity and specificity, the language of mathematics is far more constrained than natural languages studied by linguists. However, the methods developed by Frege and Tarski for the study of mathematical language have been extended greatly by Tarski's student Richard Montague<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Montague and other linguists working in formal semantics<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formal_semantics_linguistics)> to show that the distinction between mathematical language and natural language may not be as great as it seems

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Despite my earlier comment, I have no problem calling Astrology a pseudo science.

 

BTW none of my numbers came up in the Power Ball.  I guess, astrologically, it was not a good time to play :-(

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It may have been a good time to play, bit you aren't going to win. Electional Astrology tells you the best tine to undertake a venture. Sometimes the best time is not practical. Like a marriage at 3 am. Which could be Astrology's way of telling you, there isn't a good time at all for you to get married.

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I have been trying to increase my odds of winning using randomn numbers and Tarot. I was winning twice as much the probability said I should. And instead of losing 75 cents on the dollars I was losing 25 cents. But I was still losing.

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Some natal charts aren't conducive for gambling. Or so I have been told. Personally i wouldn't know but i could check for you.

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When I play poker with my buddies I rarely if ever lose.  When I play in the casino I usually loose, but am getting better. I believe success at gambling (poker playing) is a function of how good you are.   Casino games like slot machine are pure luck.  I image Del, that you believe Astrology effects or determines both one's luck and skill.

 

"Science" and "philosophy" are mutually exclusive so I can't see how Astrology can be both.  I think philosophy is a better choice.

 

I would be careful using your personal experience to draw general conclusions about...well, anything.  We all do it, but we simply can't collect enough data from our own experiences to draw meaningful conclusions about a larger population.

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Troy I think astrology shows character strengths and weaknesses. I would say there are different traits goe different types of gambling.

Logic is an element of philosophy and mathematics.

Can you elaborate on your third point.

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Funny I was actually discussing a similar subject last night with an associate who calls himself an agnostic but believes in a soul.
He's the type that believes things should be measured in a laboratory for proof.

I understand the desire to want to PROVE any type of theory before accepting it.
But there are 2 things we must remember:

1. The spiritual world is far far more advanced and you're dealing with energies that are finer and more subtle than anything you'll experience in the physical world.
There are no instruments that we know of today that can accurately measure the energies of the spiritual realms.

2. You're dealing with ANGELS....GUIDES...SPIRITS....and who knows who/what else that exists outside of our physical plane of existance.
These entities are infinitely more advanced than any human being on this planet and to expect them to submit to some "experiment" by some clown in a laboratory in a white coat with glasses........is laughable.
The fact that most scientists have to wear GLASSES is evidence of thier frailty and inferiority.
They haven't advanced to the point to heal their own bodies yet.

It's like a snail or worm with only a fraction of intelligence and only lives a few weeks trying to figure out and do studies on human beings.

I believe one day humanity will progress to the point where we'll have tools and instruments that can access the spiritual world.

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Pioneer I find it interesting that people say the esoteric is not scientific. Whereas quite a few of the giants in science and philosophy held esoteric beliefs.

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Pioneer your points all ASSUME that there is indeed a spiritual world.  One could easily argue the opposite using your very same reasoning.

 

Del, a horse has a tail but that does not make it a mouse because a mouse has a tail.  That aside what is logical about Astrology?

 

On my 3rd point, if you flipped a coin 100 times and got heads 75 times it would be false for you to say there is a 75% chance of getting heads on a coin toss -- even if you flipped the coin under some tarot or astrologically defined conditions.

 

The reason is the likelihood of me flipping a coin 100 times and getting the same result, without consulting tarot card or astrological charts is very possible.  Sure you can flip the coin 1,000 time and get marginally better results but it would still not be enough data.

 

It would be better If you got 10,000 people to flip the coin 1,000 times under the tarot conditions and different set of 10,000 people to flip a coin under random conditions. If you compared the results between the two sets of people under those conditions and found a significant variance you might have something.  Especially if someone else was able to reproduce your experiment and get the same results. 

 

You can't do this by yourself.

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Troy You said philosophy and science are mutually exclusive. i mentioned logic, which is both an element in science and philosophy. You have conveniently forgotten to answer that question.

O had to look through two of my statistics books and two of Adtrological Research books, both of which use stastical analysis. What you have in your example is a binomial distribution. If you got those results. You would assume it wasn't a fair coin. While that wouldn't tell you anything about the population it would tell you something about that particular coin. I could tell you why your statement isn't valid but the fundamental errors show a lack if understanding about statistics and statistical analysis.

Normally we disagree and I'll debate the point, but not in this instance.

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Troy if you are flipping a coin 1000 times you would only need two people two determine if there is a significant difference. What you are talking about here is am F test or F Distribution. In fact you could have ad fee as 100 coin tosses. So you would be wrong

I could do this experiment with two people flipping a coin 100 times.

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Troy Wiki Nasim Taleb. His books are interesting. He's made a multi-million dollar fortune on Wall Street. Because even professionals do not understand risk(statistics)

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Del my "tail" analogy was an attempt to answer the question.  Sure things can share characteristics, but that does not make them the same or even similar as in the previously mentioned horse and mouse. 

 

So while you are technical correct in that a mouse and horse are not "mutually exclusive" because they both have a tail.  But the tails are so different as well as the rest of the animal they may as well be mutually exclusive.  As is the case with astrology and science or even science or philosophy.

 

Del I took it for granted that you knew I was talking about a fair coin.  If you flipped a coin 100 times and got 49 tails and 51 heads would you assume the coin was not fair?

 

Sure it has been over two years since I took a college level statistics course and maybe I've forgotten more than I knew.  But I'm surprised you are questioning my knowledge given your attempts to elevate astrology to a science.

I'm not making a value judgement about astrology.  There are many great and valuable things in this world that are not science.  Science however requires experiments that prove a hypothesis.  To date I've never been made aware of any experiments to prove anything that Astrology asserts (experiments whose results have been reviewed and reproduced by others).

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Troy I am not certain but I am not really following your line of reason.

You said that science and philosophy are mutually exlusive. I mentioned logic is a part of both. Despite my mentioning this more than once you have not responded.

I don't know why you're saying I'm technically correct about tails. Oddly I thought about it but I don't think I posted about. I'll go back and check because it means one of us is hallucinating.

If you have forgotten more than you knew why would you use statistics to make a point. It is interesting people will use science to support the point without understanding the science.

The following is a quote from you.

To date I've never been made aware of any experiments to prove anything that Astrology asserts (experiments whose results have been reviewed and reproduced by others).

I have to say I think that is uncharacteristically intellectual lazy position. I had mentioned I had two books on Astrological Reseach. You could have google it or Wikipedia. Or you could have asked. I actually checked before I suggested you do so. Fir the following reasons I like knowing stuff, I am pedantic, I like to be right, and I enjoy the exchange of ideas and I have too much time on my hands

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