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Cynique

De Self-Hate Debate

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Right up there with the perennial debate about who’s to blame for the relationship rift that exists between black men and black women, is the ongoing finger-pointing that goes on in regard to what constitutes a self-hating black person.

Lately, a person’s attitude about Obama can become what triggers accusations of self-hate. But first it becomes relevant to offer a definition of a “self-loving” black person. Supporting the president unconditionally because “white people are just out to get him“ is a priority for the self-loving black person. Making fun of or chiding him for not honoring the promises that got him elected is tantamount to blasphemy. The connection between criticizing Obama and hating yourself apparently has to do with the idea that black people are interchangeable and to give the president’s job performance a C- makes one ashamed of oneself because “he” is “us“.

To really be a card-carrying self-loving black person, one seemingly has to reject anything that smacks of white envy and embrace everything that is black. Of course this creates a conflict in regard to black people who self-loving blacks consider to be Uncle Toms. An inconsistency occurs here wherein a self-loving black person rejects certain other Blacks if they don’t love what he loves. This, of course, is where making a distinction between a black person and a negro comes in, - a distinction that’s ineffective because there is no unanimous consensus about who rates as what; only opinionated assessments.

All of this raises the uncomfortable possibility that where our esteemed President is concerned, he could fit the self-lover's definition of being a sell-out. He has, after all, out of expediency, chosen to be a president of all the people. And this is as it should be. He simply cannot be a “black” president and since he had to have know this before he ran for the office, he also had to know that showing any affinity for his fellow blacks would be a “no-no“. How lucky he is that his self-loving supporters abandon their criteria and excuse him from qualifying as a black self-hater because, by their standards, he compromises his blackness, - not to mention how his wife gets her hair permed, not daring to wear an Afro

I personally dismiss anyone who says I‘m a self-hater because implicit in such an insinuation is that black self-hate is synonymous with admiration for whatever is white, as if white people have a monopoly on productive behavior, as if this is not a human survival trait, that transcends race. Yes, because I know they could do better, I cast a jaundiced eye at things some black folks do that result in them becoming their own worst enemy. But I don’t sweat it, and I usually find humor in it. I am who I am, a woman who identifies herself as black, who loves the freedom of being true to myself. No problem. No self hate. Think what you will, I know better.

In conclusion, it can be deduced that the subject of black hate is a many-faceted issue, one that is rife with vacillating debators. And to those who would smugly attempt to point out that I “doth protest too much“, I say that this is a subject that lends itself to an in-depth analysis, and, beside that, this board needs something to wake it up. z z z z z z z

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Lately, a person’s attitude about Obama can become what triggers accusations of self-hate.

"Yes, it can.

Basically Negroes thought that when he was elected this meant that it we had gained the promised land and we wuz gwine up to hebbin and everything would be peaches and cream--

Oh well. Negroes, after all, are human, and I'm sure Born Again Christians thought the same thing when George W. Bush got in and Catholics when Kennedy got in etc etc.

Ya just gotta be real about it. I was willing to give him great leeway because he was going to be President of All the People, not just Black People, and because he owed his ascent to the Chicago Machine and Business leaders and he was half white anyway--

What I was not going to give him leeway on is not getting the hell out of Iraq and Afghanistan quick as possible and not getting help to the Middle and Working class first.

I believe it was you, Cynique, who stated that she had never heard of Barack Obama before he ran for the Senate, dispite all his claims to have ties to the community.

I had heard of him but I would not have put him on my list of Most Important Black People in the Universe. Everybody loves a winner. Most folks will claim to have been behind him since he was born, etc etc.

I am tired of lying especially about the performance of our elected officials. I am not willing to follow somebody I voted for over a cliff. I must call a spade a spade--even when he is supposed to be Superspade.

The man was green and he got dealt a really bad hand but he was not drafted. He begged us to give him the job.

He has made errors, they should be pointed out. His main problem seems to be a belief that we want to dote on his every little comment about everything. He should learn when to shut up.

Obama is not God. He is the President. He works for US! (And yes, I said it about all the white ones, too). We got a right, in fact a DUTY to call him out--even when he may be right!

I knew Negroes was not ready for this.

Stay tuned. You ain't seen nothin' yet!

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Cynique, as you know, Negroes don't have a corner on the market of self-hatred.

Most people exhibit self-hatred at some point or another in their lives. Many of us live in a perpetual state of self-hatred and may not even be aware of it.

As the term is applied to Black folks; it typically refers to people who behave or believe things that are not in the best interest of Black people. Of course “Not in the interest of Black people” is a subjective term (perhaps even defined by a self-hating negro) but we all know what it means:

  • Not a supporter of Obama = Self-hating Negro
  • Republican (even though most Blacks hold conservative values) = Self-hating Negro
  • Married to a white woman (married to a white man is OK as there are no more eligible Black men left) = Self-hating Negro
  • Disagree with Chris Hayden = Self-hating Negro

Of course those are the most egregious examples but here are a few that are more subtle:
  • You think Kwanzaa is silly = Self-hating Negro
  • You are mulatto but self-identify as white = Self-hating Negro
  • You think names like "Shanequa" are dumb = Self-hating Negro
  • You disagree with Al Sharpton = Self-hating Negro
  • You have one good thing to say about Clarence Thomas = Self-hating Negro
  • You think Oprah is fat = Self-hating Negro

Do y'all have any more?

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I partially concur with your lists, Troy. But declaring that those who criticize Obama are black self-haters and then to follow this by saying that those who criticize Al Sharpton are black self-haters really muddies the picture. This fingerpointing is an exercise in inconsistency. It's like the pot calling the kettle black. The message this sends is that for one group to disapprove of Al Sharpton is a sign of black self hate because Al is not like Barak Obama, while the other group is guilty of black self hate because it disapproves of Barak Obama who is not like Al Sharpton.

All of which is why I have always found the term "black self-hate" to be ambiguous. For one thing, it has never been clearly established just what qualifies as an official black trade mark. Why? Because black people are not monolithic! With this being the case who is to say what it is that has to be rejected in order to qualify a black person for hating something black. Let's see. If a black preacher hates gangsta rap is that a sign that he's a self-hater. If a black woman has short kinky hair and observes how this often puts her at a disadvantage in the dating game and thus decides to get a hair weave which results in her being more competitive when it comes to attracting men, is this a sign she hates herself because she didn't like a certain trait, or is this a sign she loves herself because her vanity motivates her to step up her game. It just depends on how you frame things. IMO.

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"But declaring that those who criticize Obama are black self-haters and then to follow this by saying that those who criticize Al Sharpton are black self-haters really muddies the picture"

This whole argument was a muddy mess! Cynique's original post was nothing more than her usual baseless opinion. To even begin to debate her "setup" would (imo) be an act of self-hatred. I person would have to hate "themselves" to go through that pain. I wish Cynique would stick with facts.

However, I believe Troy cleaned up her muddy mess with..... "As the term is applied to Black folks; it typically refers to people who behave or believe things that are not in the best interest of Black people"

[Cynique] "Supporting the president unconditionally because “white people are just out to get him“ is a priority for the self-loving black person"

See what I mean? That statement is a joke. I mean, where's the meat, where's the facts? It appears as if she tried to clean up her ariginal mess with mo' mess. Isn't that akin to telling a lie to support another lie?

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Well, as I anticipated, that geek carey has apparently changed his diaper after what I said made him pee on himself because, heaven forbid, he didn't agree with it. Now with a dry ass he has come forth and weighed in, taking on his usual self-appointed role of being the arbitrater who decides who is right and who is wrong, making this decision by determining whose opinion coincides with his. When the shoe fits his big crusty foot, he howls because his toe has been stepped on. The stand-by argument black people raise against Obama's white critics is that they are just mad because he's black and got elected president. Why does HE think white people detractors attack Obama??? And this is the retort included in the accusations that Blacks make against other Blacks who criticize Obama, - after they are done accusing them of hating themselves because they don't unconditionally support the bi-racial president who the accusers think represents blackness.

And I should've known that carey's lame brain couldn't process what else I said. He cannot figure out that for 2 sets of black people to hate 2 different black leaders and then for both groups to be accused of being self-haters, becomes a case of 2 negatives cancelling out a positive thus rendering the self-hate label as applied to Al Sharpton and Barak Obama as being invalid, amounting to nothing more than a moniker that is in the eye of the beholder. Further more, Troy's definition of what self-hate is just one way to define it. (Some people think giving a black child a made-up name is not in the best interest of the child because it stigmatizes him/her in the corporate world, while others think such names are not a handicap. WHO is right? Some call Bill Cosby a self-hater because of how he criticized underclass Blacks, while others consider him a brave crusader for speaking out) Also, opinions vary as to what constitues "black self-interest". Yes, self-hate is a maladjustment that does exist. But when it is modified by the adjective "black" then, I repeat: it becomes an ambiguous subject!

The term "black self hate" became popular back in the 60s along with the "black is beautiful" slogan. It was a phrase used by black activists to lay guilt trips on anybody who didn't go along with a militant credo. Over the years this phrase has become a convenient tool used to taint anyone who doesn't agree with the standards of another black person. The problem back then and the problem now is that there is no common criteria adhered to by the 39 million of African-Americans in this country as to what constitutes authentic blackness. So being the diverse group of people that we are, this is a subject that makes for a legitimate debate because neither side can prove the other completely wrong.

As for Carey, he just can't resist trying to manage people, becoming indignant if they don't say what he has made up his mind to be the way things are. He's so immersed in his delusions of self-importance that he cannot conceive of the idea that what he says is not above being challenged. He tries to set the rules and then stews and mopes if others don't play his game and adhere to his demands. He picks and chooses what points he going to try and disprove and ignores the ones he can't rebut, resorting to a lot of pyscho babble bunk in an attempt discredit his opponent and distract from the weak arguments he offers. Pitiful.

And BTW, carey, you misspelled "original" you semi-literate ignoramous.

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#98 semi-literate ignoramous

Wow!

And you let a semi-literate get yo' panties all in a bunch.

You don't have to agree with me, nor do I want you to, but damn, why don't you try using facts instead of presenting your opinion as such?!!!

Some little kids might be listening. They may assume that since you are old and have a spell-check, that your porous and self-serving opinions are facts. Consequently, you could be charged with child endangerment.

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This from a guy who recently devoted paragraph after paragraph trying to prove to the world how he's got Cynique all figured out. Wooooooo. Puleeze. Me, I just had some extra time to waste which is why I dumped on you, Camode. Oops I mean, Carey. Doing so really propelled me into my comfort zone because it's fun to come up with different ways to describe your ineptitude as you tremble in your boots over the possibility that you might have to produce some facts of your own to counteract what I say.

But actually, there's no real danger of that because you will just come up with the same ol re-cycled come-backs that you kid yourself into believing are on point. It figures that you couldn't spell "original" because you are incapable of formulating an original thought. All you do is co-op other people's words and try to adopt them as your own. Or worse still, make feeble attempts at humor that fall flat because, like you, they never have any relevancy to the subject at hand. (As if children frequent this board and read what's written here when it's hard enough to get adults to stop by.)

I don't know or care how old you are, but you are really played out. Yawnnnnnnnn.

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Cynique, as you know, Negroes don't have a corner on the market of self-hatred.

Most people exhibit self-hatred at some point or another in their lives. Many of us live in a perpetual state of self-hatred and may not even be aware of it.

As the term is applied to Black folks; it typically refers to people who behave or believe things that are not in the best interest of Black people. Of course “Not in the interest of Black people” is a subjective term (perhaps even defined by a self-hating negro) but we all know what it means:

Ya know, this entire subject of so called “self-hate” is an arbitrary and capricious caustic label Negroes use against those who do not agree with their politics or ideology. There was a time when this term was used to punish those who defied or openly questioned the so-called black orthodoxy. It’s laughable today although at one time, the accusation carried considerable weight. But not so much in 2010. Black people have gone beyond the monolithic Tar Baby politics where by every black person must subscribe to the Collective Black Borg; think alike, believe alike, behave alike and respond alike. Any deviance from or resistance to the Collective Black Borg will be seen as traitorous, inexcusable, unacceptable and foremost -an open act of “self-hate” (according to the self-anointed un-licensed and non-accredited free lancing Negro personality psychologists).

Erroneous and misguided definitions and accusations of “not being in the interest of black people” are indeed mired in ambiguity and self-serving faux pas explanations. Rather than debate the differences of beliefs or ideology, torpid Negroes will desperately appeal to the campy politics of race psychology; “You hate yourself because you don’t agree with me! You don’t want to be black because….because what you believe stands contrary to what I believe. So, ya know…..you hate yourself.” End of subject. The fact that a black person may or should be allowed to have an opinion that runs contrary to the self-hate accuser, will not be entertained nor allowed. Don’t even think about it!

Now, the “self-hate” accusing self-righteous Negroes does not have the medical records nor intimate knowledge of the accused individuals personal history. They also do not have factual information about the offenders (alleged self-hater) psychological health. Yet simply disagreeing or questioning their brand of so-called veritable blackness or politics, is enough to have someone labeled “self-hating”. Sadly, only Negroes obsess over such piteous nonsense. I don’t recall other ethnicities or races razing each other with execrable branding and improvable accusations as "self-hate" simply because A does not agree with the politics of B. It’s sad and intellectually embarrassing that Negroes continue to use such a tired dated cliché in order to give spurious credibility to their opposition of another person’s beliefs. But I guess when you lack the intellectual skills and irrefutable facts to debate the differences, the next best thing is to roll out the “self-hate” accusation…..

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The term "black self hate" became popular back in the 60s along with the "black is beautiful" slogan. It was a phrase used by black activists to lay guilt trips on anybody who didn't go along with a militant credo. Over the years this phrase has become a convenient tool used to taint anyone who doesn't agree with the standards of another black person. The problem back then and the problem now is that there is no common criteria adhered to by the 39 million of African-Americans in this country as to what constitutes authentic blackness. So being the diverse group of people that we are, this is a subject that makes for a legitimate debate because neither side can prove the other completely wrong.

Thank you......

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Now that was a great post, Xeon! You said it all right here....> "“You hate yourself because you don’t agree with me! You don’t want to be black because….because what you believe stands contrary to what I believe. So, ya know…..you hate yourself.” End of subject"

I mean, i need someone to tell ME, how I hate myself because my opinion differs from theirs. If I were destroying/changing my physical features to look like another race, then we'd have something to talk about. The rest of this self-hate tomfoolery is just that, bullshit with a capital B-BULLSH*T!

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Talk about somebody twisting things around. Your thought processes are so befuddled, Carey. WHO ever called YOU a "self-hater"? As much as you elevate and admire yourself, I can't imagine anyone accusing you of not having an over-abundant supply of self-love, - despite the fact that, where intellect is concerned, yours ain't that great.

Now all of sudden YOU are calling this "self-hate" label tomfoolery when YOU have used this term yourself in connection with people who YOU consider to be uncle toms. Talk about BS. You're full of it.

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[Cynique]: "Carey. WHO ever called YOU a "self-hater"?"

Excuse me, and who said anyone called me a "self-hater". If that was your way of trying to engage me in further debate... I am here. But look, I was just talking in general terms.

[Cynique]: "Now all of sudden YOU are calling this "self-hate" label tomfoolery when YOU have used this term yourself in connection with people who YOU consider to be uncle toms. Talk about BS. You're full of it"

Not! please go find a statement of mine in which I called someone a "self-hater! Please, I'll wait. But don't make your move too soon, because you will NOT find it. I may have called someone an uncle tom, and you a tomette, but never a self-hater. If by chance you do find something that mimmicks those words, it was probably in reply to someone that said something about "themsevles" and not a statement about the woes of the black state of affairs. I challenge you, but I doubt that you will back up your words. You have a propensity to run and hide from the truth. And, you never (in your 10 years of doing this) have shown the courage to say... I was wrong or I may have mis-spoken. Nope, you can't do it.

But lets make no mistake about it, you ARE a hater (imo). See Cynique, unfortunityly you will not agree, but again, you've shown your weakness as an effective debator, because you leave too many holes in your game, by giving your opinion and trying to render them as facts. Then you seem to get frustrated when someone calls you on that BS, and then you resort to name calling. Your thang is weak. And you are A DYED FRIED, CARD CARRYING HATER! Raise your hand and take a bow.

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I mean, i need someone to tell ME, how I hate myself because my opinion differs from theirs. If I were destroying/changing my physical features to look like another race, then we'd have something to talk about. The rest of this self-hate tomfoolery is just that, bullshit with a capital B-BULLSH*T!

Agreed. Carey, I believe if someone disagrees with another person’s politics or beliefs, the disagreement should center around just that –the differences in beliefs and ideology. Attempting to besmirch someone with fraudulent accusations of self-hating is desperate, unnecessary and most of all -improvable. What is the criteria for alleged accusations of “self-hate”? Not agreeing with another person’s politics. WTF? There is no need for that. I don’t agree with the politics of Michael Steele, Shelby Steele, Condoleezza Rice, Frances Rice or Star Parker. That I know.

But how in the world would I know if they hated themselves based on nothing other than me ideologically disagreeing with them? What information could I have that stated they were in professional counseling or under psychiatric care for a suicidal personality disorder? I don’t. And neither do the bitter Negroes who falsely accuse them of hating themselves. As I stated before, just debate the differences and flaws in the individuals politics and leave the tired flagrant self-hating moniker in the trash where it belongs.

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First of all, carey, you capitalized the word “ME” for emphasis when trying to distance yourself from being a self-hater, then attempted to back-track, weakly declaring that you were talking in "general" terms before you proceeded to give "specific" reasons as to why you were not a self-hater. How you can even fix your mouth to say you have debating skills I’ll never know. You can’t even articulate the proposition you are trying to prove. Somebody must be misleading you into thinking you are smart.

And you want proof of your equating an uncle tom with self-hate?? You just did this by calling me both of these names, even as you try to deny that this is not something you have a habit of doing. Your own words indict you. Just an example of your not being able to argue with any degree of clarity.

One minute you’re crowing about you having a right to your opinion and the next minute you’re declaring yourself the indisputable person who determines who is and who is not what YOU say they are. You’re blinded by your own sense of importance and you're stuck in the past, clinging to old cliches and notions about race and color.

And if you think I’m going to waste a lot of time and energy trying to change your mind about what you consider me to be, you’re more stupid than I thought. I place no value on your opinions and have no respect for the conclusions you reach about me because they’re based on your skewed perspective. I don’t give a good damn what you call me. Just keep on trying to convince yourself that I am what you have a need to believe I am because this is the only way you can bolster the claims which have no grounding in reality.

You are the personification of the saying that “there’s nothing worse than a fool, who knows not that he is a fool.” And to make matters worse. You are an OLD fool. LMAO.

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Were you really counting...ROTFLMBAO!!! Carey, can you list all 100.

Of course the term "Self-hating Negro" is meaningless; as are the terms "Uncle Tom", and "Sellout".

As stated Blacks are not monolithic there are tremendous regional differences. For example authors know better than to schedule a reading in ATL on a wednesday night 'cause everybody is gonna be at bible study. If I go to a literary event in NYC and there is no wine something is seriously wrong!

Even within the regions there are significant differences between folks.

There is no common connection between Black folks period; not even the shared legacy of slavery. In Harlem for example Africans and African Americans don't even really socialize in meaningful numbers...

Like the guy married to the white woman on the Boondocks cartoon many Blacks more culturally "white" than they are Black.

What does it mean to be Black anyway? Obviously it has nothing to do with physical, apperance, legacy of slavery, language, religion, location, place of birth, or even one's biological parents.

The only common denominator seems to be that we are (at least those of us who can't pass) targets of racists who have been duped into believing Black people are inferior; for the sole purpose of enriching a handful of powerful and wealthy white people.

Our job is to combat the tactics that are being used to divide, not just Black people, but the vast majority of people of all "races" running around this world.

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Our job is to combat the tactics that are being used to divide, not just Black people, but the vast majority of people of all "races" running around this world.

"WE" ain't got no job.

There ain't no "WE". You said it yourself in the rest of your post, yet ignore it. I suppose that is the "Double Consciousness" kicking in.

The s*** is about to hit the fan. The 21st Century will be a struggle for America to retain it's position as #1. The WHOLE WORLD will be coming against us. We will have no friends.

The job will be SURVIVAL. Contemplate all this on the tree of woe.

My favorite quote from the movie "The Black Klansman"--

"You are a bunch of useless, cowardly, Uncle Toms! You ain't worth saving.

But I'm gonna save ya anyway!"

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I'm not so sure Cynique. Don't you think in today's world there are some common things we all have to do in order to survive?

Assuming what you say is true, and the shit is about to hit the fan. Don't you think any effort to prevent the rest of the world from "coming against us" will require a collective effort?

If there is no "WE" there is no survial.

The so called double consciousness is of no significance, indeed it is a distraction considering the world we live in today.

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Now I know Cynique & Chris Hayden are like kissing cousins, but Troy, when Cyn-Cyn starts mimicking Chris's sound bits, we can all kiss the world goodbye.

I mean, did you really think Cynique had the skills to write such eloquent prose? :-)

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Oh stfu, numbskull. It figures that somebody as myopic as you would refer to Chrishayden's panic-stricken rant, as "eloquent", Carey. And your thinking is so stunted that you actually believe that Chris' comments about survival are a revelation. Who doesn't know that survival is the wave of the future?? I guess this came as news to you and your clueless self. Survival has always been my mantra. And of course you would relate to Chris raggin on black people who don't think like you because that's all you're good for along with desperately demanding facts, - something you rarely deal in. yawnnnnnnnnnn.

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Excuse me, where did that come from? It was merely a joke that obviously went over your head. I mean, I don't think my comment called for that type of response. But, where is my paper. I have to start a new list.

1B. numbskull

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Did it ever occur to you that my response went over your head? If you can call your dig a "joke", I can call my response a "joke". As usual you want to define the terms to suit your purposes, which in this case is to portray yourself as a "victim." zzzzzzzzzzzz

And what is the purpose of this silly list you are starting? I guess I should just restrict myself to addressing you as "Carey", - which is a pretty good insult unto itself.

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