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Pioneer1

Educated vs Trained

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I saw this powerful and "on point" video last night and figured I'd drop it on here.

It seems to be pertinent to the disussion we were having in another thread about the value of an academic education.....especially for Black folk.

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Dr. Boyce Watkins interviewing Dr. Claude Anderson

 

 

 

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The one thing that stands about these two African American thinkers is their titles, Dr. Boyce Watkins and Dr. Claud Anderson; with a roadmap, of sorts, to advance the Black community.

 

But neither offer nothing solid before the first floor of their five-floor construction. without foolproof means leading to the first floor, economic and other of their theories are at best premature, at worse, invalidated. The ideas of these brothers are worth further development but with a new starting point that must necessarily include ‘information,’ data of which is the foundation of any plan.

 

We must also beware of everything described as conclusive.

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@Kalexander2 did you listen tot he entire video?  The reason I ask is because I don't see how you could make the statement in your 2nd paragraph.

 

@Pioneer1 yes the point I made about an MBA teaching one to work for someone else and not contributing very much to my running AALBC was described in this video.

 

I could also relate to the fact the AALBC too is not supported by wealthy Black folks, but by midlist and indie authors. avid readers, and individuals who may not be avid readers but recognize what I do is important and want to support for that reason.  Sure there are few exceptions but regular folk are the the ones who keep AALBC.com alive.

 

Boyce was of course on point when he said Black folks would much rather be associated with white business than Black businesses.  The primary reason is that we all believe it is far better to be working for a Goldman Sachs than it is to be running any Black owned business. 

 

I can also relate to the issue about being too supportive of Black that claude raised.  It s not that I exclude other groups, but I chose to advocate for Black folks.  I also recognize the world has moved on to "diversity." which basically means everyone except healthy, heterosexual, white men.  The advocacy for diversity has diluted the impact for Black people so I don't embrace it and I know it has hurt me in terms of support -- even within my own community, particularly those from the professional ranks.  I'm considered radical. Can you imagine LOL!

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@Troy. No, brother, I did not, you busted me! 15-minutes into the video those two Black scholars made no mention of supply and demand, failed to address issues related to schemes to manipulate scarce resources; though their inference as to the production, distribution, and consumption of wealth can be assumed elaborately defined is jumping the gun, so to speak. I guess I’m one of those people who judge the horses at the starting gate. For the sake of argument, I intend to view the entire video later.

 

AALBC, participation for me is personal, not economical; offering me insight into in the State of African American affairs level of interest in African American interest in Black literary and related information. As an organization, I believe it can be vital importance to our community. But like any business endeavor, we must continue to explore how to fulfill the need of our community (already there) that attracts Black consumers seeking information; also like any business endeavor, this is a  creative process.

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To me, this advocacy harks back to Booker T. Washington who made white people extremely happy by supporting the idea that blacks should restrict their aspirations to excelling at manual labor, and the tilling of the soil. 

 

The narrative was full of generalities, and sins of omission; there's a great black middle-class out there whose members are staying afloat.  Not all recent black college grads are working at MacDonalds.  And it begs the question as to whether a black college graduate is better equipped to survive in a diverse, high-tech, competitive economy than a high school graduate or drop-out, the latter of whom are doomed to working the welfare system, or toiling at minimum wage jobs or engaging in lucrative criminal activity. Plus, just because you are not of college caliber, doesn't guarantee that you and your "uneducated" self will excel in some other venture that will pay well. Of course there have always been successful, self-made entrepreneurs; exceptions to the rule because small businesses have a high rate of failure.   Everybody  agrees that college is not for everyone. But to imply that college is for no one, is counter-productive.  Furthermore, a person can be a literate, self-educated person.  I am not impressed by the idea of a well-trained black work force of ignorant people.  The mind is a terrible thing to waste. 

 

This is a lecture that's all about "thinking outside the box", the rhetoric of a visionary who inspires nothing but pessimism when he acknowledges the obstacles involved in being unorthodox. The speaker is the antithesis of his ideas about information being  preferable to education because the information he doled out was tainted and tentative, and what made the most sense was the historical references which were the result of him being an educated person.

 

Everybody has a point of view and a theory, and they're entitled to it.  The speaker does a competent job of outlining solutions to the problems that he has conjured up. 

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Troy

I think one of the biggest reasons so many wealthy Black people DO NOT support eachother is because the fear pissing off their White benefactors.

I've seen this even among some of the well to do AfroAmericans in my community.

Most Blacks of wealth aren't generating their wealth on their own, they're getting it FROM White people to perform a service.
And they're afraid that if they unite with other Black people and their White support sees this.....it may "spook" them into fearing some sort of Black uprise and cause them to yank their support away.
So they figure it's best to stay away from eachother and

 

 

I also recognize the world has moved on to "diversity." which basically means everyone except healthy, heterosexual, white men.


One COULD argue that after the year 2000 there's been a sort of NEO-diversity being promoted in schools and in the corporate world that accepts everyone except HETEROSEXUAL BLACK MEN.

 

 

 

 

K2

 

AALBC, participation for me is personal, not economical; offering me insight into in the State of African American affairs level of interest in African American interest in Black literary and related information. As an organization, I believe it can be vital importance to our community.


I don't know how long you've been out the country but.....
AALBC and the conversations here DO NOT represent the interests and state of affairs of typical African Americans....lol.

 

 

 



Cynique

To me, this advocacy harks back to Booker T. Washington who made white people extremely happy by supporting the idea that blacks should restrict their aspirations to excelling at manual labor, and the tilling of the soil.

 

Nooooooo.

That's a rather simplistic and frankly MISREPRESENTATION of Booker T. Washington's philosophy of independence and Black self reliance.

Would a man who advocated restricting Blacks to manual labor produce great Black scientists like George Washington Carver?????

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@Pioneer1, sure I'd accept the notion that heterosexual American Black men maybe be excluded as well.  This parallels a  period where our incarceration rate climbed and our rates of college graduation related to Black women plummeted.  You'll also notice a precipitous drop on the number of Black American-nonbiracial-straight-male novelists who promoted to a wide audience.  I don't have firm numbers, but you don't hear names like Travis Hunter, Victor Mcglothin, Eric Jerome Dickey, and Carl Weber nearly as much as you would have 15 years ago-- and they are all still writing...

 

Maybe it is me, with my outside-the-social-media-filter-bubble perspective, but i doubt it, because my book sales tell the same story.

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14 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

Would a man who advocated restricting Blacks to manual labor produce great Black scientists like George Washington Carver?????

And what did George Washington Carver  spend his life doing? He was into agriculture and agronomy; a botanist, all about improving farming techniques and inventions derived from the peanut, - in total keeping with Washington's vision.    Plus the fact if you and your ilk had their way, Carver wouldn't have gone to college.  SMH. 

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Troy


You'll also notice a precipitous drop on the number of Black American-nonbiracial-straight-male novelists who promoted to a wide audience.
I don't have firm numbers, but........


Ahhh.....
It seems to me you're begining to recognize the convenience of ANECDOTAL examples.....lol.

 

 

 

Cynique

 

SMH.


No - stop doing that honey.
That MIGHT be causing your problem.....lol.


Like many of our people, you seem to have this erroneous notion that Booker T. Washington's goal was to condition Black people to be good passive workers for White folks; when in all acuality what Washington wanted was for Black people to be as INDEPENDENT of White people as possible.

He wanted the newly freed AfroAmericans to be SELF-RELIANT so that they wouldn't have to go around begging White people do feed, clothe, and shelter them....as many are doing today.

Washington didn't object to Black people going to college in the least.
But he...like me...recognized that MOST of our people weren't going to go to college or become professionals (no matter how much you push for it) so he advocated for most of our people learning necessary life skills that would allow them to build communities and support themselves.

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SMH @Pioneer1 How modest of you to compare yourself to a historical giant like Booker T. Washington. Maybe i should compare myself to the equally-esteemed, W.E.B Dubois, whose ideas were different from Washington's, which was why they were frequently at odds.

 

And have you considered walking instead of talking all of your grand notions? If so, what success have you had in encouraging blacks to skip college?  You and your chronic tunnel vision are full of simplistic answers to complicated problems. If you're as steeped in hindsight, as you profess to be, why do you think your little formula for black success hasn't ignited a mass movement?  Also, consider that if white folks see any sign of this idea gaining traction, they will co-opt it and beat black folks at their own game, - as usual.  Go take a plunge into all of your smug, condescending hog wash and after you finish wallowing in it, - shake it off.

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@Pioneer1 I never meant to completely discount anecdotes.  They can be interesting and, when backed by actual data, quite powerful.

 

However, absence such data, I would just not use my personal anecdote as proof of anything dealing with all Black people or a more general audience.  This is something you quite often, with reckless abandon.  Do you see the difference?  

 

So while I may tend to agree with you on the issue of the disappearing straight-Afro-America male in general I just don't have any proof -- other than my own anecdotes -- even as it relates to our representation in literature. 

 

Even if you and I combined all of our anecdotes, on the subject, this would not be proof, no matter how good it made us feel or how right we feel we are. 

 

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Even if you and I combined all of our anecdotes, on the subject, this would not be proof, no matter how good it made us feel or how right we feel we are.


Are a stack of research papers from Duke University supposed to suffice as "proof"?????

The only REAL proof for a person is to either experience or witnessing whatever is being said to them. And because of this, if you really take it for what it's worth - so-called "scientific data" being presented to the individual is no more valid than anecdotes being presented to them.

After all, BOTH are just second-hand narratives about a particular experience.

 


-Grandma sitting at her kitchen table telling you what she knows about collard greens.

-A White man in a white coat and glasses is standing there with a folder telling you what HE has concluded about greens.


Which one do we go with?

Who should we trust for our information?

Personally, I believe that anecdotes from RELIABLE people are more trustworthy than "data" from dubious sources.

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Why is data from dubious sources even a point of contention?   You are clouding the issue.  I'm not sure if you are doing this deliberately or if this is the way your mind works.

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