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Delano

The US is an oligarchy

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"The U.S. government does not represent the interests of the majority of the country's citizens, but is instead ruled by those of the rich and powerful, a new study from Princeton and Northwestern universities has concluded."

 

Talk about a statement of the obvious.  But I will read the Princeton study anyway.

 

With so many people struggling (invisibly so, because the media are constantly talking about a booming economy) it really is a really bad time to be poor in America.  You president want to cut or eliminate the few programs designed to help the poor.

 

People with decent jobs, who live fine communities and great schools don't really see the people (the majority of American) who are struggling.

 

The chickens will come home to roost and when they do we all will be effected. This is the unraveling of America I'm not looking forward to witnessing... 

 

 

 

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Ofcourse the U.S. is an Oligarchy.
Nearly every effective government is.

Infact, what other logical and viable way IS there to properly govern a society or even a basic organization except as an Oligarchy?

No matter what a nation may call itself.....Communist, Democratic, Theocratic, even so-called Anarchists.....they are all being ruled by a minority of people at the top making decisions.
That's an Oligarchy.
No nation on this planet is ruled by EVERYBODY or even ruled by the majority of it's citizens.
It would be mass chaos.

Having an Oligarchy isn't the problem.
The problem is having UNQUALIFIED and/or CORRUPT Oligarchs in positions of leadership who aren't providing the people with what they want and need.


And another problem here in the United States is that this Oligarchy is also rapidly becoming a Plutocracy with only a handful of wealthy people owning and controlling everthing.

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There's economic and political systems. I believe Switzerland is a democracy. 

Pioneer you may want to look up the definition of oligarchy. 

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15 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

Having an Oligarchy isn't the problem.

 

This is a fascinating statement.  @Pioneer1 read some the articles then tell us what you think.

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Del and Troy

I already know the definition of an OLIGARCHY which is why I stand by my comments, however the official definition is:


1 : government by the few

2 : a government in which a small group exercises control especially for corrupt and selfish purposes

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/oligarchy


The United States was set up so that 3 branches of government: President, Supreme Court, and Congress will rule the ENTIRE nation.
It was SET UP so that millions of people would be governed by less than 600.

If that's not an oligarchy then what is?

But I have news for you......

Nearly EVERY nation in history was ruled by a minority of it's members.
Whether you're talking about an African Empire or the Roman Empire.
Whether you're talking about Hitler's Germany or the United States.

Every nation has a government set up so that only a few elite can rule the masses.
This is natural, because not only isn't everyone qualified to lead but MOST people aren't qualified to lead.
Most people aren't "management" material and you can see this fact at the workplace.

True Democracy...like Anarchy....would lead to chaos.
It's a pipe dream.

Again, the OLIGARCHAL STRUCTURE isn't the problem, it's the fact that this nation is turning more and more into a PLUTOCRACY that's more of a real problem.

Furthermore, I've read the articles and this is OLD news.
They aren't telling me anything that I don't already know.
I'm ONE of the working-class or what some may even consider "poor" so the fact that this economy has been leaving tens of millions of it's own citizens behind while the rich continue to get richer isn't anything new.

When you switch from an agricultural/industrial based economy where anyone with common sense and decent health could earn a good living.....to an investments/stocks/communications based economy where most people need advanced degrees and social connections to make a decent living for themselves, what else did we expect to happen?

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@Pioneer1 you misunderstand the definition of the word oligarchs are not elected. Our government is actually a republic.

 

However our country is arguably  essentially an oligarchy, run by plutocrats who have paid off our elected officlas.  

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Troy

Again, I know what an Oligarchy is and it has NOTHING to do with how the leaders got in office.
It doesn't matter if they were elected to office, born into office, or got in as a result of a coup....the definition remains the same.

A FEW IN CONTROL OF THE MANY.

There is no argument about it, the United States IS an Oligarchy and it has ALWAYS been an oligarchy from it's conception.

It makes no different if the public ELECTS their oligarchs to represent them.

Republics are just ONE FORM of an oligarchy.

China where a relatively small group in the Communist Party who govern that nation represents another form.

And guess what?

A nation can be an Oligarchy, Plutocracy, AND a Republic all at the same time.

Wasn't a billionaire just ELECTED by the public to be President?
Didn't New York ELECT a billionaire to be it's mayor?

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53 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:

Republics are just ONE FORM of an oligarchy.

 

Fascinating. What other forms of oligarchy are there?

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((sigh....shakes head))

You know,
Seeing how confused so many well educated people can be over simple issues like the one above is one of the reasons I'm GLAD...I didn't go to college!   :rolleyes:

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Seriously @Pioneer1, you wrote that a Republic was "just ONE FORM of an oligarchy."  If you would just name two other forms, I think I can help you think about what the terms mean and why saying something like, "A nation can be an Oligarchy, Plutocracy, AND a Republic all at the same time" is like saying a fruit can be an apple, pomegranate, and a kiwi all at the same time.

 

Just because you can string the words together does not mean that they will make sense.  This has nothing to do with college, it is just English. 

 

As an aside, it would also be interesting to read some of the other reasons you are "GLAD" you did not go to college, I'd like to hear other reasons why you are happy to have not gotten an education.  Do you feel the same way about a high school education too?

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To associate other forms of government with an "oligarchy" robs the word of its meaning.  If it was all those other systems, then there would be no need for the word "oligarchy" to exist.

pioneer falls in the same category as Donald Trump.  He believes that he need only state something to make it so, and anything that contradicts what he says,  is "fake".  His egocentrism is the glue that holds him together - what keeps his fragile little private world from imploding.

 

 

ð¤£

 

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A Republic is in essence opposite to an oligarchy. 

So while yiur definition of oligarchy is acceptable. Your usage if the word T

Republic ic is not. Correct usage doesn't require a college degree. However rationalising your error by exporting it isn't sensible. 

A Republic implies indirect rule by the people. 

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Troy

Seriously @Pioneer1, you wrote that a Republic was "just ONE FORM of an oligarchy." If you would just name two other forms, I think I can help you think about what the terms mean and why saying something like, "A nation can be an Oligarchy, Plutocracy, AND a Republic all at the same time" is like saying a fruit can be an apple, pomegranate, and a kiwi all at the same time.

If you would have carefully read what I said I actually GAVE you another form.....China.

China...a nation of over a billion people....is governed by a small group of people in the Communist Party that probably numbers no more than 1 million.
A small group ruling the masses.

And if you want more examples of yet another form of Oligarchy you can look at Iran, Saudi Arabia, or the Vatican....nations with governments that rule through religion.
They are known as THEOCRACIES but still consist of a small group governing the masses.

These are just various FORMS of a small group ruling the masses....but still a small group ruling the masses none the less.



 

As an aside, it would also be interesting to read some of the other reasons you are "GLAD" you did not go to college, I'd like to hear other reasons why you are happy to have not gotten an education. Do you feel the same way about a high school education too?


Well for one thing, I'm debt free.
I don't have a degree but I don't owe the government any money for student loans or for other obligations so all the money I get is mine.

Another reason I'm glad is when I look at how college seems to INDOCTRINATE the students into a particular mindset.
They claim college is suppost to be about education and professionalism but when I look at most college students today....most of them don't have enough sense to blow their own nose when it's stuffy nor do they even wash their hands before eating....but they can program a computer or argue Einstein's theory of relativity.
You're basically taught to put all your faith in "science" and what the leaders of science tell you instead of questioning how true it is and finding out for yourself.


As far as highschool.....
Honestly, I don't feel I learned anything of value FROM highschool.
I learned a lot of things DURING MY HIGHSCHOOL YEARS about people and society in general, but academically...very little.

Most of what I know academically I was either taught by my mother at a young age or I learned on my own through reading and travel when I got old enough.
School did little to nothing for me as far as imparting knowledge.

 


 



Del

 

A Republic is in essence opposite to an oligarchy.

So while yiur definition of oligarchy is acceptable. Your usage if the word T

Republic ic is not. Correct usage doesn't require a college degree. However rationalising your error by exporting it isn't sensible.

A Republic implies indirect rule by the people.


A Republic is NOT an opposite to an Oligarcy, it's just another form of the same thing.

This isn't very hard......
Again, an Oligarchy is simply a form of government where a small number of people rule over the masses.

THAT'S IT.

When you talk about a Republic....despite what it "implies" or what some statesmen TELLS you....you're still talking about a government where a small group of people are ELECTED to represent and rule the masses.

It doesn't matter how you chop it up or RE-NAME it....it still amount to a small group of people ruling the masses.

The only forms of government I can think of right now that AREN'T forms of an Oligarchy would be a Democracy and an Anarchy....where either the majority rules or nobody rules.
And neither one of those governments exist on this planet currently, to my knowledge.


 

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23 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:

School did little to nothing for me as far as imparting knowledge.

 

Yes, I can see that.

 

 

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Definition of republic in English:

republic

 
 

NOUN

  • 1A state in which supreme power is held by the people and their elected representatives, and which has an elected or nominated president rather than a monarch.

     
    Example sentences
    1. 1.1archaic A group with a certain equality between its members.
      ‘the community of scholars and the republic of learning’
       

Origin

Late 16th century: from French république, from Latin respublica, from res ‘entity, concern’ + publicus ‘of the people, public’.

Ruling and representing are not the same. 

 

 

The translation of Re Public is public thing.

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10 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

When you talk about a Republic....despite what it "implies" or what some statesmen TELLS you....you're still talking about a government where a small group of people are ELECTED to represent and rule the masses.

  A republic is not an oligarchy because it is not ruled by a small group of people; it is ruled by a large governing body elected by its citizens to represent them.  

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@Pioneer1 you will impress me if you just accept that you misunderstood the meaning of these terms, learn from this, and move in.  Like the rest of us, you are merely human and capable of making a mistake -- is it not a big deal.  We all do it.

 

It would just be plain stupid to continue trying to defend the indefensible.  Wouldn't you agree?

 

@Mel Hopkins that avatar is too cool 🙂

 

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16 minutes ago, Delano said:

Trying to convince anyone to question their assumptions. 

You enthusiastically do this to Troy all the time. But you remain under the thrall of pioneer 😁

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53 minutes ago, Delano said:

Actually my comment infers the opposite. Troy is the most willing to change his mind

 

That's because you taunt him into changing his mind; not the case with your lil bro.  But this isn't really anything worth quibbling about.   😜

 

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You said to me Pioneer isn't an abstract thinker. Experience changes his mind not ideas. 

Hmm i like to think i challenge Troy but maybe taunting is more effective. 

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Troy
 

you will impress me if you just accept that you misunderstood the meaning of these terms, learn from this, and move in. Like the rest of us, you are merely human and capable of making a mistake -- is it not a big deal. We all do it.


You should be MORE impressed that my allegiance is to the TRUTH and the literal definition of words instead of simply agreeing with their more popular MIS-understandings.

People toss around words like Democracy, Republic, and Oligarchy without properly knowing what they ACTUALLY mean and too often end up being manipulated through their ignorance.
If the masses are ignorant of the true definition of words...which public education in the United States seems to ensure.....then it's easy for someone to point the finger at another nation and accuse THEM of being ruled by an Oligarchy when THIS nation is also ruled by one too.



 

 

 

 



Del

I'm not sure where you got that definition from but I usually go to MERRIAM-WEBSTER for my definitions because it's a traditional soure and according to THEIR definitions......



OLIGARCHY

1 : government by the few

2 : a government in which a small group exercises control especially for corrupt and selfish purposes; also : a group exercising such control


https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/oligarchy


 

REPUBLIC

1 a (1) : a government having a chief of state who is not a monarch and who in modern times is usually a president

(2) : a political unit (such as a nation) having such a form of government

b (1) : a government in which supreme power resides in a body of citizens entitled to vote and is exercised by elected officers and representatives responsible to them and governing according to law

(2) : a political unit (such as a nation) having such a form of government
 

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/republic

 


So according to Merriam-Webster an Oligarchy is a government in which a small group EXERCISE CONTROL.

And a Republic is government either with a chief of state who is not a monarch or a government in which supreme ower resides in the body of it's citizens entitled to vote AND IS EXERCISED BY ELECTED OFFICERS AND REPRESENTATIVES

The key concept you need to focus on is that in a Republic the power is exercised by the ELECTED OFFICERS AND REPRESENTATIVES.....not the citizens!
In a Republic the citizens may vote in people to represent them, but the citizens themselves aren't the ones exercising the power but it's that SMALL GROUP OF ELECTED OFFICIALS who have that power and you can only HOPE that they exercise it to your satisfaction.

Which basically means a Republic IS an Oligarchy in which that Oligarchs (those exercising power) are elected.


 

 

 



Cynique
 

A republic is not an oligarchy because it is not ruled by a small group of people; it is ruled by a large governing body elected by its citizens to represent them.


The words "small" and "large" are relative.
Congress who makes the rules consist of over 500 people, but that's still a TINY group compared to the 300+ million citizens they were elected to make the rules for.

536 elected Oligarchs (if you add the President) who exercise power over the mass of hundreds of millions.


 

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47 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:

supreme power resides in a body of citizens entitled to vote and is exercised by elected officers and representatives responsible to them and governing according to law

(2) : a political unit (such as a nation) having such a form of government
 

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/republic

 


So according to Merriam-Webster an Oligarchy is a government in which a small group EXERCISE CONTROL.

And a Republic is government either with a chief of state who is not a monarch or a government in which supreme ower resides in the body of it's citizens entitled to vote AND IS EXERCISED BY ELECTED OFFICERS AND REPRESENTATIVES

The issue is the  locus of power. With a republic it rest with the Public. The elected officials are representatives and not rulers. 

I use the Oxford English Dictionary. 

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Del
 

The issue is the locus of power. With a republic it rest with the Public. The elected officials are representatives and not rulers.


Lol....what do you mean they are not rulers when CONGRESS MAKES THE RULES.

Rulers are WHOEVER MAKES THE RULES/LAWS.

Congress...the elected officials....the Oligarchs of the Republic...are called LEGISLATORS because they are the ones who make up and pass the laws/legislation/rules!

So yes....
Power may REST with the public but it's EXERCISED by the elected officials who make up only a small minority of the nation they're exercising their power over.

In a Republic the only real "power" the public has is to RE-ELECT different officials whom they feel aren't properly serving their interests.

In other words......a Republic gives you the opportunity to replace one set of Oligarchs with another.

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Pioneer your beliefs have serve your life. Whether they are correct the norm r idiosyncratic doesn't matter. We see the world differently. Your approach is experiential mine is theoretical. Each has its place. 

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1 minute ago, Delano said:

Pioneer your beliefs have serve your life. Whether they are correct the norm r idiosyncratic doesn't matter. We see the world differently. Your approach is experiential mine is theoretical. Each has its place. 


Can you highlight and clearly show me where I am wrong in the above post?

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The issue is who is in control. Not  who appears to be in control. 

 

The US has always been a Plutocracy. In name it is a republic. Currently it us becoming a Kleptocracy like Russia. 

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52 minutes ago, Delano said:

The issue is who is in control. Not  who appears to be in control. 

 

The US has always been a Plutocracy. In name it is a republic. Currently it us becoming a Kleptocracy like Russia. 


I'm not arguing with you over whether or not the U.S. is or has ever been a Plutocracy.

You and Troy believe that a nation CAN NOT be an Oligarchy and Republic at the same time and I'm saying it absolutely can be because the United States is a prime example.

Oligarchies aren't all Republics, but nearly ALL practical Republics are  Oligarchies.

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3 hours ago, Delano said:

And a Republic is government either with a chief of state who is not a monarch or a government in which supreme ower resides in the body of it's citizens entitled to vote AND IS EXERCISED BY ELECTED

Right there but you don't see it. The world keeps spinning 

The US is a nominal republic and practical oligarchy. That doesn't mean all republics are oligarchies. 

If you had said the US functions like an oligarchy even though it's a republic. You would have made a subtle distinction. 

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The dictionary definition of Oligarchy says nothing about it being a Republic.  The dictionary definition of an Republic says nothing about it being an Oligarchy.  If somebody like pioneer wants to twist words to concoct his own definitions rather than appreciate the intrinsic meaning of words, then let him. His opinion carries no weight even if he does take pride in his intellectual myopia while expressing contempt for higher education.  

 

Troy previously alluded to how fruits come in many varieties, an observation  that can be made in nature and applied here.  Though they are both fruits,  an orange is not an apple,  and even it they both have skin,  they are not interchangeable. That's why they're given 2 different names. So it is, with systems of government. Giving each one its own name is a way of distinguishing one from another. and preserving each word's purity and integrity.  That's how language works. What difference does it make whether pioneer thinks a Republic is an Oligarchy?  Leave him to his brittle little world that would shatter at just the idea of his being imperfect.  

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