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Freedom


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Very few human beings are actually "free".
Pretty much those who are living ALONE and in ISOLATION .

Free....according to my definition...means UNRESTRICTED, NO RULES, NO LIMITS.

If you are living in a society there are obviously rules and limits to your behavior and in most cases your speech....you're not free.
Even if you live in the wild, if you live around other people or just ONE person you generally can't say or do whatever you want to them.  You are RESTRICTED in your behavior and speech...you're not free.

Very few people on this planet are actually free.

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By your definition @Pioneer1 no one is really free. But i would tend to agree.

 

Then there is also the concept that freedom is an illusion to us, and everything that has or will happen has been set into motion from the moment of the Big Bang.

 

That said, in the context of the  “freedom” we actually have access to, i describe it as the ability to pursue one’s passions, or bliss, and still be able to support oneself in comfort and safety — ideally with a loving companion.

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i think we all have a small amount of freedom. as long as there are boundaries, laws, rules or restrictions you have a limited degree of freedom. Freedom in my opinion will happen when our spirit/soul departs the body.

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14 hours ago, Rae said:

Freedom in my opinion will happen when our spirit/soul departs the body.

 

I hope you are right 🙂

 

There are some who believe most of us are queued up for eternal damnation 👹

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On 7/8/2021 at 11:53 PM, Delano said:

What does it mean to be free to you? Or how would you describe freedom?

 

WOW! What a thought!? 

My first thought made me realize how I think on the basis of my present condition here in America and I now realize my freedom should not be based only on my present experiences, but on a much wider scale. And, therefore, I don't know how to answer, but now, I will ponder this for awhile. 

These questions has made me think about a recent research I stumbled across on the subject of FERAL HUMANS;

What kind of freedom would that be???

Personally, I would NOT want that kind of freedom to follow other creatures not high enough in intellect to teach me, as a human! 

This kind of condition, has caused me to be thankful for other 'humans' who have taught me.

 

 

So now, I guess I have just come to a realization, that perhaps, 'Freedom' has to be given after a period of being in a controlled environment, and freedom may be based on others who have control over your life initially. Freedom has to be attained. ... Still thinking... 

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On 7/13/2021 at 2:45 PM, Troy said:

 

I hope you are right 🙂

 

There are some who believe most of us are queued up for eternal damnation 👹

@Troy but how can anyone know another's final destination. if we have done our best to be a good person we should be okay, hopefully 😇

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I was walking around Zurich Switzerland late at night. A police car stopped I said I like to walk at night and think. They said okay and off they drove. It was the first time I didn't feel the weight of my skin color.

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Delano

 

 

I was walking around Zurich Switzerland late at night. A police car stopped I said I like to walk at night and think. They said okay and off they drove. It was the first time I didn't feel the weight of my skin color.

 

How do you know the reason they stopped you in the first place wasn't related to your skin color?

 

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:rolleyes:

 

 

Delano

 

 

I was walking around Zurich Switzerland late at night. A police car stopped I said I like to walk at night and think. They said okay and off they drove. It was the first time I didn't feel the weight of my skin color.

 

How do you know the reason they stopped you in the first place wasn't related to your skin color?

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Del

I asked you a simple, question.
Perhaps you didn't see it clearly enough so allow me to ask it in bigger bolder letters..........

 

📢  How do you know the reason they stopped you in the first place wasn't related to your skin color?

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You realize both of you Brothers have difficulty answering direct and simple questions.  This is interesting to witness.

 

I think there are two things as play here.  @Pioneer1 resists answering direct question because he does not want to get hemmed up into a corner that would expose a flaw in his reasoning.  Del I think does this too, but his primarily motivation, more often, seems to illicit a response or thoughts that would ultimately lead the question asker to answer they we seeking.  I think in an online forum it is simply easier to answer the questions posed.

 

That said, I can easily answer both questions:

 

@Pioneer1, Del might be into tarot and and astrology, but he is not a mind reader, therefore he can not possibly have known the motivation of the police officers who pulled him over. 

 

@Delano, Pioneer has not been to Switzerland. How many Black race men from Detroit go to Switzerland?

 

 

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Troy

 

I don't find it difficult to answer simple questions, though often times I DON'T answer them for the very reason you described.
But in THIS case....

I would have appreciated if Del would have simply responded to my question (even if the response was he didn't know), since I asked it first; instead of ignoring it only to ask me one instead.


 

but he is not a mind reader, therefore he can not possibly have known the motivation of the police officers who pulled him over. 
 

Do you mean to tell me that a 50-something year old man born and raised in this society is CLUELESS as to why the police would stop him of all people while he's simply walking around minding his own business?

 

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3 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

Do you mean to tell me that a 50-something year old man born and raised in this society is CLUELESS as to why the police would stop him of all people while he's simply walking around minding his own business?

 

No, I don't, but again this is why Del asked you if you'd even been to Switzerland. Since you've never been, it might be hard for you to wrap your brain around the fact that there may be a place on Earth where Black men are not troubled simply for being Black.

 

Del's approach is more nuanced than yours.  I'm not making a value judgement. I just pointing out the difference makes it more challenging for you too to communicate.

 

I speak from experience with you both 😉

 

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@Troy that's a fairly close description of my process. I think abstractly and I also think about the best way to comunicate based on the setting. However in the past two years I realise that I don't communicate all the details that a casual acquaintance might need. I also like to be parsimonious in my communication.

 

Pioneer appears either unable or unwilling to understand a point of view. I heard a quote most communication is either manipulation or indoctrination I am not interested in being the recipient of either tactic.

Sometimes a person won't understand and sometimes they don't want to understand. I have no bets in that game.

 

13 hours ago, Troy said:

Del I think does this too, but his primarily motivation, more often, seems to illicit a response or thoughts that would ultimately lead the question asker to answer they we seeking. 

you may be projecting here Troy. The only reason I ask a question is to understand the miscommunication. I have little to no need for agreement or consensus. Slowly I am starting to see my own beliefs and drivers. I have no interest in arguing, and little in communication. 

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Troy

 

I've been dealing with Delano for nearly 10 years, if you think I don't know him and his "finicky" ways by now......lol

What if I told you that when he didn't answer my question the FIRST time I asked him, I knew he wasn't gonna answer it no matter how many more times I asked?


I just wanted to see how far he would go with his finicky behavior.

 

 


it might be hard for you to wrap your brain around the fact that there may be a place on Earth where Black men are not troubled simply for being Black.

 

That's not hard to understand.
I'm sure there are many places on the planet where Black men aren't troubled for being Black.  However I DO find it hard to believe that Switzerland is one of those places because Caucasians are Caucasians all over the planet and tend to have the same nature regardless of region.  
Does a dog or cat who is a carnivore in Canada all of a sudden STOP being a carnivore and become a vegetarian in Russia?
 

I can't always believe with all Black men say about an area because some men think if they can have sex with a White woman in a particular place without getting harassed for it...as far as they're concerned NO racism exists there, lol.
I have to go to a place myself and make my own value judgement based on my own personal observations before I declare a place "cool".
 

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6 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

I have to go to a place myself and make my own value judgement based on my own personal observations before I declare a place "cool".

 

On 7/16/2021 at 3:50 PM, Delano said:

 

 

On 7/16/2021 at 6:17 AM, Delano said:

Have you been to Switzerland Pioneer?

 

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17 hours ago, Delano said:

I heard a quote most communication is either manipulation or indoctrination

 

Man, that is a cynical thought.  I communicate to both understand myself and to be understood.  I communicate to relate information that I think is important to us a a community.  I'm also an educator, so I seek to teach as well. That never rises to the level of manipulation or indoctrination.

 

18 hours ago, Delano said:

you may be projecting here Troy

 

Perhaps.

 

16 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

I just wanted to see how far he would go with his finicky behavior.

 

If you have to ask twice, he is not going to answer it.  What puzzles me is sometimes is that Del will point out that I have not answered a question!  If I don't answer a question  directly posed to me it is simply because I missed it and I'll ask that the question be asked again.
 

16 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

Caucasians are Caucasians all over the planet and tend to have the same nature regardless of region.  

 

This is factually inaccurate and technically racist.  There are no behavioral characteristics that you can apply to Caucasians universally that are not also true for all humans.

 

 

 

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Troy

 


There are no behavioral characteristics that you can apply to Caucasians universally that are not also true for all humans.

 

I'll give you two right off the bat..........

On average, they consume a lot more dairy products than other ethnic groups of color.
On average, they tend to be more affectionate towards dogs than other ethnic groups of color.

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Troy



Both of those are cultural characteristics and can easily be applied to people of all so called races.


Yes they are cultural characteristics but very very few other ethnic groups of color have a history of dairy consumption (especially after 30)  or fondness of dogs in their homes like Caucasians ethnic groups.
You can't find documents on it.
 

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23 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

I have to go to a place myself and make my own value judgement based on my own personal observations before I declare a place "cool".

Then it doesn't matter whether I respond. What you fail to realise is that my response was in line with this comment before you made it.

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Anecdotally, it seems an increasing number of people dogs today — often 2 or 3.  Man’s best friend seems to take the place of human friendships for many people and I’m talking about Black people.

 

Cultures that domesticated cows drank milk it is not a function of race.

 

32 minutes ago, Delano said:

What you fail to realise is that my response was in line with this comment before you made it.


Deep.

 

You know Del is right about that one. Based upon your response Pioneer, there is nothing Del could have written to change your mind.

 

It is interesting that you have no problem formulating an opinion about a place you have never been, but will reject an opposing opinion from someone who has been there. 

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Del

 

 

Then it doesn't matter whether I respond. What you fail to realise is that my response was in line with this comment before you made it.

 

You didn't know I felt this way until I made the statement which was nearly 2 days AFTER you refused to answer my question;  so what was your initial excuse for not answering?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


Troy

 


Anecdotally, it seems an increasing number of people dogs today — often 2 or 3.  Man’s best friend seems to take the place of human friendships for many people and I’m talking about Black people.

 

An increasing number of Blk people speak English, Spanish, and French also...does that mean Blk people naturally spoke those languages?
Those behaviors...like the fondness for and cuddling of dogs....are products of colonialism and globalism and were INTRODUCED to them from Caucasians who engaged in those behaviors by nature.

 

 

 


You know Del is right about that one. Based upon your response Pioneer, there is nothing Del could have written to change your mind.

 

However 2 points you should keep in mind:

 

1. Del didn't know I felt this way until 2 days AFTER refusing to answer my question. So my response couldn't have been the reason for his initial refusal to answer.


2. For months if not years Del has been saying that he's no longer interested in changing people's minds but dialog simply for the exchange of ideas.  You and I have read him saying this.
So whether or not his response would "change my mind" should be irrelevant to him.  He should  simply answer the question as a mutual exchange of ideas.

 

 

 

 

It is interesting that you have no problem formulating an opinion about a place you have never been, but will reject an opposing opinion from someone who has been there. 

 

What opinions have I formed OR rejected about this place?

I simply asked Del a question...not about Switzerland...but about  the officers who contacted him.
A question he has YET to answer.
 

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1 hour ago, Pioneer1 said:

What opinions have I formed OR rejected about this place?


Following statement and countless others.

 

On 7/15/2021 at 6:12 AM, Pioneer1 said:

How do you know the reason they stopped you in the first place wasn't related to your skin color?


the presumption here was that the maltreatment of Black people is universal. You are willing to accept this as axiomatic rejecting the experiences of a Black man who has, presumably, been there.

 

 

You have also asserted here and many other conversations that there are behaviors that are inherent to all white  people regardless of their culture or when they lived.

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Troy

 


Following statement and countless others.

 

Do you understand the difference between a mere statement and a QUESTION?

I asked a QUESTION

And obviously it wasn't a rhetorical QUESTION because I have made it clear that I wanted an answer.

 

 

 

 

the presumption here was  -ok, now wait a minute, lol

 

Stop poking us! Cops say Facebook arguments hinder crime solving | BetaNews

 

 

Are you seriously going to take my QUESTION and  project on to it what you PRESUME I'm implying by asking it?

Well...I feel for the next brother who asks you what time it is.

You're liable to PRESUME that his innocent request for the current time has some ulterior motive and then proceed to attack him for it!
 


I merely asked Del a question....which he has yet to answer.

Nothing more, nothing less.

You really shouldn't let your imagination carry you to these far reaches...lol.

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2 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

Del didn't know I felt this way until 2 days AFTER refusing to answer my question. So my response couldn't have been the reason for his initial refusal to answer.

Yet it does appear that I knew how you would respond. Yet it took you two days to arrive at the same conclusion. You have to see for yourself.

 

2 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

For months if not years Del has been saying that he's no longer interested in changing people's minds but dialog simply for the exchange of ideas

Yes and your statement shows you had already made up your mind. Therefore you have preempted any possible exchange of ideas. 

This is not a new dynamic however my response or lack thereof is new.

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Was my presumption incorrect? 
 

Are you willing to explore the possibility that there are white people — entire countries of them even — who don’t have the characteristics you’ve described and can treat Black men with respect? Or is Del’s prescription correct?

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Del

 


Yet it does appear that I knew how you would respond. 

 

That's a reach.
Your simple refusal to answer my question is not proof or even evidence that you knew what my statement was going to be in advance.
The fact is.,...you've refused to answer questions with me and others before, so it's simply a HABIT on your part.

 

 


Yet it took you two days to arrive at the same conclusion. You have to see for yourself.

 

1. Wrong.
I "arrived at this conclusion" many many years before this conversation.

 

2. For a man who claims he's not interested in influencing or changing minds...my conclusions should be irrelevant to him, lol

 

 

 


Yes and your statement shows you had already made up your mind. Therefore you have preempted any possible exchange of ideas. 

 

An exchange relies on atleast TWO parties to participate.
If I ask you a question, and you refuse to answer it then YOU are the one who "pre-empted" the exchange of ideas.

 

 

 


This is not a new dynamic however my response or lack thereof is new. 

 

No it's not new.
As me and Troy have said, you have refused to answer questions directed toward you before.  You actually have a reputation for it, lol.
 

 

 

 

 

 

 


Troy

 

 

Was my presumption incorrect? 
 
Yes, because I never said nor do I believe that Black people are universally mistreated.
You won't be able to find any quotes of me saying such.

 

 

 

 

Are you willing to explore the possibility that there are white people — entire even — who don’t have the characteristics you’ve described and can treat Black men with respect? Or is Del’s prescription correct?

 

Great questions, however they are irrelevant to the immediate issue and focus...which is the motive behind Delano's refusal to answer my simple question.

 

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8 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

This is not a new dynamic however my response or lack thereof is new. 

 

No it's not new.
As me and Troy have said, you have refused to answer questions directed toward you before.  You actually have a reputation for it, lol.

 

8 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

Great questions, however they are irrelevant to the immediate issue and focus...which is the motive behind Delano's refusal to answer my simple question.

I have studied Astrology and Tarot, but I have also studied logic. I also have a rule I don't argue with people who can't think abstractly or who lack empathy.

@Pioneer1 I have stated what made me feel free and you are attempting to negate my statement. In this and other comments you lack a sense of proportion, or you seem oblivious as to how your words or actions would effect someone.

Finally I can respond or not respond how I choose. Your demands and puerile attempts to psychologically or emotionally coerce me are laughable. You can not conceive or even entertain the possibility that I may know more than you about anything.

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Delano

 

 

I have studied Astrology and Tarot, but I have also studied logic. I also have a rule I don't argue with people who can't think abstractly or who lack empathy.

 

None of this applies to me, so why mention it?

 

 

 

 I have stated what made me feel free and you are attempting to negate my statement. In this and other comments you lack a sense of proportion, or you seem oblivious as to how your words or actions would effect someone.

 

Each conversation and situation is different.
In this case, my question was designed to:

1. Receive and answer (which I have yet to receive from you)
2. Encourage you to consider WHY the cops may have stopped you in the first place.

However if getting you to think more pragmatically seems like a cruel and heartless thing to you, that is not my intention.
Perhaps I should leave you to continue in your state of felicity.

 

 


You can not conceive or even entertain the possibility of the that I may know more than you about anything.
 

......and your inability to answer a simple question hasn't helped with this, lol.
 

If you want to show me how smart you are, start answering some questions.

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9 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

Yes, because I never said nor do I believe that Black people are universally mistreated.

 

I did not say you said that.

 

On 7/17/2021 at 6:19 PM, Pioneer1 said:

Caucasians all over the planet and tend to have the same nature regardless of region. 

 

This is the statement is contest.  You've expressed it numerous times, in a variety of ways, before.  It is fundamental to your view of so called Caucasians, which is founded in your belief in the inherent differences in people to due to their so called races.

 

Again, this is why you will not -- indeed can not -- entertain the idea that a white policemen in Switzerland may have pulled Del over for a reason other than his race.

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Troy

 

 

Again, this is why you will not -- indeed can not -- entertain the idea that a white policemen in Switzerland may have pulled Del over for a reason other than his race.


((throws up hands and sighs))

 

...ok Troy, then you tell ME why they might have stopped him.

 

If you don't (and apparently neither does Del) think that RACE was a factor, then why DID they decide to stop him?
 


...man.

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Troy

If you have no idea why he was stopped, then you shouldn't be so quick to critique the idea that RACISM may indeed be a factor.

 

especially since Del suggests that was not the motivation.


Regardless as to what they may have talked about, how would Del know the TRUE motivation of those Caucasian officers stopping stopped him?

....as if racists have a habit of ADMITTING that racism is the motive behind their actions, lol

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4 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

If you want to show me how smart you are, start answering some questions.

How is my following your orders, proof of my intelligence. Plus why do you think I care about your opinion of me.

 

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