Pioneer1

Troy No one is denying that we are all humans...lol. But we all know that humans vary from one end of the spectrum to the other. Some men are more masculine than other men, some women are more feminine than other women, and some people are split down the middle to the point you can't really categorize them in either gender. Now again, it is a known scientific fact (whether you want to acknowledge it or not) that Black men in America have more testosterone than White men. A fact that I have provided evidence to support; and a fact that you disagree with but haven't provided any evidence to the contrary. Sure a person can get stronger by exercise, but I doubt all the training in the world will turn a popular ball of hair, eye liner, and grease (otherwise known as Justin Beiber) into a Mike Tyson. The genetics just aren't there! Selective breeding and using genetics to achieve a better result is nothing new, the Greeks were practicing it thousands of years ago by saving only the healthiest babies and throwing those with deformities into pits to die. You don't have to know HOW something works to realize that it works. Slavers may have been as illiterate as they were immoral but they still knew what they were doing when they would take a big strong slave from one plantation to the next to have sex with slave women and produce strong children. I think we should also examine why you and many other Black men feel the need to downplay the well known and often celebrated sexuality/masculinity of the American Black male. Is it natural for a man to deny the virility of his particular group? Or have Black men been "tricked" into denying thier own power through feminism and the subconscious fear of what White men may think of them and even do to them by examples in history? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I'm not suggesting that adulters be imprisoned for cheating. Jail time wouldn't be a very good punishment anyway because if the offender is the main financial supporter of the family and they are imprisoned then that means the family's means of support would come to an abrupt end. But given the importance of a stable family and especially with regard to children....I do think there should be some sort of legal punishment for those who break their social/civil contracts with their spouses. Justice has a way of establishing itself. Despite the fact that there are no enforced laws against cheating on your spouse in the United States, do you know how many murders and other acts of violence occur as a result of infidelity? Probably a quarter of all murders in America take place from people who suspected their partners were unfaithful to them. If you want a secular society where people are told there is no "divine retribution" for what they do, then the law should step in to enforce certain moral standards to maintain peace. While I believe in a society where people should have the relative freedom to do and believe in what they wish as long as it doesn't encroach on the rights of others; I DO believe their should be some universal agreement on certain principles, ethics, and morals in society. The Nation of Islam is a good example of moral clarity and discipline for the Black community. I've studied the teachings of the Nation of Islam extensively, both the original Nation of Islam under Elijah Muhammad and the current one under Minister Farrakhan. I even attend lectures at Mosque #1 in Detroit and other cities I lived in every now and then. I think they should have a more prominent role in reforming the Black community as well as other religious and non-religious groups. However I personally can't agree with all White people being "devils"....lol...or the belief that there is no life after physical death, both of which seem to among their central beliefs. I don't have to tell you this, but we must be careful when trying to introduce rules from a religious ideaological source because a lot of people will be offended and turned off because of the source regardless as to how beneficial a particular idea may be. For example, when you go into a meeting by the Nation of Islam, the men and women are separated so that the men can concentrate on the speaker instead of focusing on the woman sitting next to him. This is an excellent idea that I think works in schools when it comes to teaching young boys, but if people knew it came from "them mooslums" some may reject it.

Admin There is a difference between something being your FAULT and something being your RESPONSIBILITY. The high unemployment rate is certainly not Mr.Obama's fault because he didn't cause it nor did he intend it, however as the national leader it IS his responsibility to bring it down. Improving the economy is one of the reasons he was elected. During the economic debate over how to create more jobs, with an Democrat House and Senate he had an opportunity to do the Roosevelt thing and bypass the local governments and private sector to establish federally backed jobs all over America and quickly get millions of unskilled and lowskilled unemployed back to work on infrastructure building projects. Instead, he signed in some half-assed plan that gave billions of dollars to private businesses and the state governments and charged THEM with the responsibility to do the hiring. Did I mention that many of these states are ran by corrupt right-wing governors who'd do anything to see Obama fail? And as most people who were against this approach in the first place predicted, the plan (of which nearly half of it consisted of tax cuts) FAILED. After giving jobs to a handful of their trusted cronies, most of the billions that these governors received ended up unaccounted for and the unemployment rate either remained the same or increased leaving millions of people still unemployed and now even angrier and more distrustful of anything coming out of the federal government. Get ready for another "well known secret" of the Black community.........lol. Outside of the fact that too many Black men have felony records that give discriminatory employers an excuse not to even consider them in the first place......one of the MAIN reasons the Black unememployment rate is so high today is because many young Black men simply no longer have an incentive to work. Even if jobs become available. Good, easy, well paying jobs...... A large percentage of our brothers won't apply for them because they have no incentive to get out and work. They have women who are more than willing to take care of them. If there mothers aren't taking care of them, they have wives and girlfriends who are feeding, clothing, and sheltering them plus giving them all the sex they want. This is why you no longer see young Black men engaging in riots and protests over mass unemployment and job discrimination like you see among young men in Asia and even parts of Europe today. In past generations, when Black men were charged with the responsibility for supporting not only themselves but thier wives and children, they didn't tolerate being unemployed to well, lol. They were hungry and desparate and something had to be done. But hell, if you have several women fighting eachother to make you thier "man" and take care of you then why get out in the street and risk getting a lick upside the head by a billclub fighting for a job you really don't want in the first place. May as well stay at home sitting in your robe smoking weed and eating Cap'n Crunch. In an indirect way the Obama Administration is responsible for this as well. Just like the healthcare debate where instead of demanding Universal Healthcare he started off compromising and wouldn't even consider a Public Option......he's lukewarm and wishy-washy on this issue. Rather than starting off with a plan to ban assault weapons and giving himself some room to compromise, he starts off with a mild "....uh can we atleat get a national background check please'sir " position. 23 executive orders.....none of which actually bans anything or makes any real impact. But just enough to further piss off right-wing gun nuts who didn't trust him to begin with and gives them more evidence to support thier suspicions. If I were a betting man, I'd bet the man down in Alabama holding that little boy hostage is one of those nuts who is against Obama and believes the government is coming for his guns. If you notice, the media talks a lot about his background but is being very silent on his "list of demands". Cynique Now that was a terrible thing to say to man. 'talking about you don' t want to be in his harem. ((shakes head)) I'll tell ya.....I'd really like an apology. But I suppose I won't get one from YOU will I?

It's because of incidents like THIS that I suggested AfroAmericans establish a Literary/Academic Center. Currently, most nations in Africa and Asia are too unstable to keep priceless material like that safe. Who knows how much history has been lost from fighting, neglect, and selling off artifacts for a quick buck.

Like most New Yorkers, you seem to only be calling Manhattan itself NYC and not including the other boroughs which have large middleclass neighborhoods. But you're right about the cost of living there. From what I see New York does't have the "comfortable working class" that the upper Midwest has where a person can work at a Home Depot or be a city bus driver and if their partner works too they can work on buying a house. The service industry there gets paid peanuts comparably if you factor in the cost of living. But again, that "struggle" seems to bring out the best and highest quality of service in many people. I'm not sure about the public vrs private schools in New York, but in the Detroit area the vast majority of the private schools (really parochial schools)....academically speaking.....are no better than the public schools. When you send you children to these private Catholic based parochial schools, the only thing you're really paying for is safety and a smaller class size. They cost anywhere between $5,000 - $20,000 a year and will take just about anybody who can pay. You give them the money and they'll slap a uniform on your kid and shuffle them into the next class available. But the REAL private schools where you get the most excellent education generally aren't found in any urban area but are tucked away in the woods and they cost over $50,000 a year (unless it's a boarding school) and are very discriminating in who they accept. It would be much easier if people of like-minds got together and concentrated thier efforts instead of doing everything individually. But then again, that would be a matter of trust. Black people who share similar values should live near eachother and pool their resources to manifest what they desire for themselves and their children. Living around people who don't want to do anything...and even worse don't want YOU to do anything, is very stressful.

Why do you ask...lol.Are you planning on auditioning to become a member? If you promise not to make any trouble, I'll give you some balloon pants, a top, and put you in my personal harem.

1. As Troy already suggested, the unemployment figures are GROSSLY underestimated. But this didn't start with Obama, it actually started with Ronald Reagan. Before he took office they actually counted every ablebodied adult who didn't have a job as unemployed.....and the rate was around 8%. When Reagan took office he oversaw the shutting down of many of the manufacturing jobs that were in the cities with most of them moving out into rural areas or out of the country all together and the urban unemployment rate skyrocketed to well over 20% where it remains. However the stats didn't reflect this because under his administration people in jail, in prison, or people who gave up and stopped looking for work were no longer included in the statistics. Which brings me to my next point........ 2. I really believe that the unemployment rate today IS higher than it was when Bush was in office; because when Obama won the election most of the corporations started laying off people in massive numbers. Now THIS wasn't Obama's fault. Corporate executives are conservative and don't like regulations. They anticipated a Democrat would bring more regulations so they decided to dump thier losses and hold thier money until they figure Republicans get back in power. Where I DO blame Obama is in how he's handling the unemployment situation. Instead of creating a Federal jobs program like Roosevelt did during the Depression to give everyone a job who wants one......he is putting too much of the responsibility on the states and private firms to hire people. By the grace of God I hope to have a huge firm in the near future. It's not my responsibility to help bring down the unemployment rate needlessly hiring hundres of people just to give them a pay check and benefits! It's my responsibility to MAKE MONEY and hire the people I need to help me do that and pay them a decent wage. It's the GOVERNMENT'S responsibility to make sure the people's needs are taking care of (jobs, healthcare, housing, ect....) and they shouldn't force that responsibility on others.

I'm not a Christian, nor do I see the Bible (as a whole atleast) as the inspired word of God; however our people need to come out of this inferiority mindset that everytime history talks about slavery they automatically assume it's talking about THEM. Little know history reveals Black Africans and Arabs out of Northern Africa collectively known as Saracens enslaved thousands if not millions of Europeans when Muslims controled much of Southern Europe. One of the reason Greeks, Italians, and Spaniards often have such dark skin, curly hair, and can dance and sing as well as they do, LOL * And Arabs had been enslaving Eastern Europeans from the Baltic region for nearly a thousand years even before then. Infact, so many Europeans were enslaved that the word "slave" came out of the word "Slavic". I'm not justifying slavery by any means, but just putting it in perspective so that Black folks don't freak out and fall on the ground and start wallowing and crying everytime they hear the term "slave" in history.

I really think some of you need to consider moving to the state of Michigan to establish a concentration of AfroAmerican writers. Instead of hanging around White publishers and movie studios in New York and Los Angeles begging them to recognize your work and often having to write stereotypical degrading material just to make money.....why not build a literary center of OUR OWN? The Black community is in desparate need of a contemporary INTELLIGENCIA. Where are the Black philosophers? Where are the Black publishing houses? Do we really need more pimp/playa ghetto garbage novels aimed at twisting the minds of our young girls to make them see every Black male as an adversary they shouldn't trust? Do we really need more movie scripts that portray Black men as dope dealing criminals, childish buffoons, moral degenerates, and now flamboyant effeminates? We need those who are gifted in the art of imagination to help us draw the blueprints for a New America.

Mercy killing??? I have no fear of someone so egostical and shallow that even when they KNOW they are in error -instead of exiting on a peaceful note- would rather resort to pulling juvenile diversionary tactics to try to get the last word in. People like that usually end up tripping over their own words; as you apparently have several times, lol. I need to brush up on my defensive skillz anyway. ((eyebrows raised and head tilted to the side)) Come on wit' it..........

Fate of Timbuktu manuscripts uncertain as library burns The fate of tens of thousands ancient manuscripts in Mali remained uncertain Monday as French troops liberated the city of Timbuktu from Islamic insurgents who were said to have set fire to the library there. Timbuktu is the last major city occupied by the insurgents, who have held sway there for 10 months, imposing the strict Islamic version of religious law, including carrying out public executions and amputations for crimes. The city, a UNESCO World Heritage Site, was an especially vibrant center of Islamic thought in the 14th, 15th and 16th centuries. As the Guardian explains in a retrospective article today, the manuscripts collected in the city “cover areas such as medicine and astronomy, as well as poetry, literature and Islamic law. Many were kept for centuries in private family libraries, passed down through the generations.” In recent years, some 20,000 of these manuscripts were collected in the new Ahmed Baba Institute of Higher Islamic Studies and Research. When the insurgent army occupied Timbuktu last year, they used the 50,000 square-foot complex as a sleeping quarters. On Monday, Timbuktu mayor Hallé Ousmani Cissé told the Guardian that on Saturday the militants torched two buildings containing the manuscripts. “"This is terrible news,” he said. “The manuscripts were a part not only of Mali's heritage but the world's heritage. By destroying them they threaten the world.” The mayor spoke to the Guardian by phone and was not in Timbuktu but in the Malian capital of Bamako. And it is not yet known how much damage was done to the library, which had also been in the process of digitizing many of the documents. Many of the documents were stored in underground vaults. Most are in Arabic, but there are many in other languages, including Songhai, Tamashek, Bambara, Turkish and Hebrew. The oldest dates from the year 1204. A Wikipedia entry on the Timbuktu manuscripts contains several beautiful images of the documents. http://www.latimes.com/features/books/jacketcopy/la-et-jc-fate-of-timbuktu-manuscripts-uncertain-as-library-burns-20130128,0,5367392.story

Troy ((Pioneer looks at Troy....looks at the audience...then raises his brows in amazement)) I thought it was almost universal knowledge among most educated Black people that slaves were selectively bred for health and strength. You haven't heard of Black men and women being examined on the auction block for muscularity, healthy, size of hands for doing manual labor, ect...? You haven't heard of the "studs" who were taken from one plantation to the next to have sex with the women and produce healthy strong children? What Black people went through was called "peculiar institution" because of the unusual circumstances they went through in the process of making slaves that was different from anything practiced anywhere else in the world. If you aren't familiar with the process by which a free and independant people from Africa were taken and transformed into a submissive labor force I suggest you start by reading a book called. 64 Years To Make A Negro By Alfred Ali It's quite detailed on the process on how Black people directly from Africa were "bred" in the Carribean islands before being brought to the mainlands of North and South America.. Like any social institution, marriage is as strong as the laws that enforce it. How many people go to jail over adultery in America? How many people are threatened with a physical punishment for abandoning or neglecting their responsibilities to the children they produce? I'm not proposing that draconian measures be instituted in Black America to ensure the family stays in tact, but I do think the penalties for destructive acts that lead to broken families be a bit more harsh than they are. In most African and Asian nations today, the penalty for cheating on a spouse or abandoning/neglecting your responsibilities as a parent are much much harsher than in the West. Say what you will about those societies, but Africans are just as "Black" as Black Americans but aren't suffering from nearly the same level of broken families and fatherless children even during times of famine and warfare. So that should tell you it's not the PEOPLE (Black people) who are the problem but the ENVIRONMENT those people find themselves in that create the problems.

Troy You may have asked that question in a spirit of sarcasm but it's actually has some truth to it Just like suppressed energy seeks an outlet in ways that are sometimes destructive, sexual energy and power that is improperly managed often expresses itself in perverted and destructive ways. As I've said before, AfroAmerican men (who are known to have a very high sexual/masculine energy by most social and medical scientists) live and are forced to function in a society that was not designed by or for them. Unlike the ancient African societies that brought young males through a "rites of passage" to properly educate them on thier masculinity; young Black males in modern America are not given the proper knowledge or discipline to know what to do with thier powerful energy. I suspect this is the reason so many Black and Brown children are diagnosed with behavioral problem like ADD and ADHD in school. Compared to less energetic White children, ofcourse young Black and Latino children would be considered unusually hyper and active. See, there's a difference between a "man" and a "gentleman". ((where is Cynique now...lol)) A man is any male who reaches the state of sexual/physical maturity. He's capable of making babies with women, inflicting damage in society due to the increased muscular strength and aggression that testosterone gives him. But a gentleman is a man who is refined and has the knowledge and values to be a productive member of the society he resides in through the PROPER use of his masculine powers. Having a lot of children by different women isn't necessarily a bad thing in and of itself, it depends on how those children are raised. According to the Bible Jacob had 12 sons by several different "baby mamas" and those sons eventually founded a nation.

Admin You apparently forgot when I told you: "I personally think it's a mixture of both. Some things about our selves we can control, others we have no control over." How you got "an intelligent being pulling all the strings" from that is beyond me. As far as this thread is concerned......lol.....progress will begin when you accurately understand my position that I believe SOME things are predetermined and SOME things are a matter of personal choice outside of any predestined factors that may affect our thinking. Delano Instinct is a very subjective term, but drive and ambition I would categorize as emotions.

Nah'Sun Wrong. But I'm glad you were humble enough to admit your ignorance by putting that statement in the form of a question. BTW didn't you try to pull that same trick last week??? Lol, it didn't work THEN and it won't work NOW. But just incase you didn't read the response I gave you in regards to Red Hook Summer I'll post it again for you: 1. *Not criticizing Red Hook* hasn't been one of my major claims through out this dialog. So I have no incentive to deny something I never claimed in the first place. You HAVE denied critiquing the movie while still making sweeping general statements about it as a whole. 2. No I didn't see the movie but because those who have seen it and given reviews of it have spoken and questioned Spike about the scene in which a minister molests a boy.....it has been confirmed that this is in the movie. You haven't seen where I made sweeping general statements in praise of or in condemnation of the entire movie itself; only my opinion on Spike's decision to include that one particular scene. So it doesn't require that I watch the entire movie for me to comment on one scene. ((Pioneer turns the hourglass upside down and sits back)) I await your next diversionary tactic, lol.

Yes it could have. But again, SOME INTELLIGENT BEING had to make the decision previously (pre-determine) to plan the act that takes place currently.

Cynique I didn't say "lustful". I said VIRILE. There's a difference. Virility has to do with sexual power, lust has to do with sexual desire uncontroled. Italian and Spanish men who tend to be more independant in thought than the average AfroAmerican man who's mind has been influenced and controled by the history of slavery take pride in thier repuation in being virile and macho....whether it's true or not. Well, I actually don't thing there's nothing wrong with a woman gaming and seducing a man to be his best. She's welcomed to some of his wealth and success if she helps him get it through boosting his confidence....lol. If you helped me to become rich and succesful, you DESERVE some of it. Troy First of all I said: "Keep in mind we're talking about AVERAGES. There are plenty of White men who have more testosterone than many Black men but that's not the norm." Secondly I believe AFRO-AMERICAN men have more testosterone by the fact of how our people were "bred" (if you will) through slavery. Mating the most muscular and aggressive Black people together to produce stronger slaves for a period of well over 200 years in the Western Hemisphere. East Indians who are just as dark or darker than AfroAmericans meaning they probably have just as much or more melanine may have the same amount of testosterone as Whites. Well I expect for the adults to sleep with eachother, but definately not with the children. I believe these family structures should be tied by not just socially but legally bound CONTRACTS that force people to hold to thier responsibilities ones they agree to them. Keep in mind these Group Families I speak of will have no more than 6 or 7 adults in a family and all would have to agree to who is pemited in the group.

Troy But the action of dropping the egg in and of itself is a result of an intelligent source. Some intelligent being had to make the conscious decision to drop the egg, or atleast handle it even if it were dropped by accident.

Back to the subject of the proper family structure........... While I don't think it's a good idea for the state to raise children (though an institution is often times a better place to raise them than in an abusive home) because it tends to make them less "humane"; M-PACT has been entertaining the idea of GROUP FAMILIES. A type of family structure where you have several mothers and fathers all in one CIVIL UNION raising the children in "small village" type of household in an urban environment where there is shared responsibility between adults. While no one in our organization has actually practiced this yet, we think this may be one of the alternative type of Black families in the future.

Troy No, this isn't "twisted justifications", this is scientific TRUTH. The average Black man is more sexually potent than the average White man and science backs this up. Now how some White men choose to handle that knowledge is a different argument all together. What does that mean???? It means you're proving my point....lol. Let's look at your example.......... 1. Barak Obama: half Black and half White Compared with 2. So-called White person: only trace amounts of Black ancestry but not enough to show up in his pheontype If Mr Obama has more testosterone than person #2 then that just further proves my point that men of African descent on average have more testosterone than White men by the fact that even one who is HALF Black has more testosterone than one who only has trace amounts. Keep in mind we're talking about AVERAGES. There are plenty of White men who have more testosterone than many Black men but that's not the norm. When I asked "Do you see promoting Black male sexuality and masculinity as offensive and stereotypical?" You said: "Yes". Well see that's the problem right there! I suspected this by your reluctance to accept what most people with basic observation skills and have spent time around both Black and White men in America regulary knows. Like many Black people who mean well, you are more worried about what White society thinks about Black males and how society sees Black males than you are of determining that actual facts and making them work for us. I don't ascribe to Western society's deviant sense of senuality and sexuality. To me, being highly sexual isn't shameful, offensive, or embarrassing but it's something I think a man should be PROUD of. When we had our own socities, we didn't have sexual hangups that made us ashamed of ourselves. White people TAUGHT Black people to be ashamed of and insecure about their sexuality. I don't think I sound racist, I sound like a man who thinks for himself and doesn't let fear of how others MAY perceive me govern my selfworth or behavior. I use my own mind to establish my ethics and standards and I don't let the confused perspective and views of others who don't have my best interests in mind sway me. Perhaps you should re-examine your position and reasoning for finding the image of hyper Black masculinity offensive. I mean sit down and really examine it and question whether it's such a bad thing outside of the context of what some White males or others may think. After doing this outside of the context of what other's may think, you just might arrive at the same conclusions that I have. Cynique Perhaps you're better off dwelling on my spelling, because a few misspelt words are about the ONLY thing you've ever been able to really prove me wrong on.....lol. Hey...;I can't come to MY conclusions through YOUR experiences. I can only draw conclusions from my own observations and experiences. I hope God blesses me to live as long and longer than you, but the fact is even if we saw and went through the exact same things we would still see things differently because men and women simply think differently. Like I said, rather than trying to force men to see things YOUR way, perhaps men and women should just respect eachother's differences. Obviously I draw my conclusiong from my personal encounters, which is what MOST people with common sense who don't live in a fantasy world do. As far as avoiding "super bitch femme fatales".....damn right, lol. I like ladies.....not "he-shes" who have more testosterone pumping through their veins than I do. A wise man will seek a mate who will compliment him, encourage him, and bring out the best in him; not challenge his masculinity and try to tear him down at every turn. I have an organization to run and other things on my plate.....I don't have time to play emotional games and I don't surround myself with women who play them. One thing I have noticed about your posts in this thread. When you talk about women you talk about "women" in general; but when you talk about the bad and dishonorable behavior of men you specify "Black men". I'm not accusing you of this, but I've noticed that many women of color (not just Black) will submit themselves TO and tolerate things FROM White men that they'd never accept from men of color. The only "men" they see as being real men are White men therefor any other race of men who attempt to establish themselves in a position of masculine authority are often challenged. As quiet as it's kept, this subconscious contempt for Black male authority is the MAJOR cause of disharmony and instability in most Black families and even some Black organizations.

Nah'Sun Perhaps, but it doesn't mean they should. Haven't you heard you shouldn't judge a book by it's cover? You said: "I'm not watching DJango on the strength that I'm tired of the theme that Blacks are subordinate or inferior to whites" "The plot of the movie doesn’t interest me…simple as that A superhero slave???" If THAT ain't criticizing, it's so pungent.....it'll have to do until the REAL critique comes in the mail. I'm not trying to convince you to see the movie, that's you decision. I'm trying to convince you to see where you are in error criticizing that which you haven't even seen and in further error in denying that you criticized it.

I'm not so sure about that. Determining is a willful act, it doesn't just happen at random. If something is predetermined it had to be PLANNED from an intelligent Source.

No doubt, But while they may or may not have spent their money buying it, most people don't criticize books they never read.

Troy What was your point? I thought it was that there were no differences between Black and White male sexuality. We know that testosterone is the leading factor determining sexual energy and desire. Those links pointing out the differences between our average testosterone levels between Blacks and Whites support MY point that Black men on average have a stronger sexual desire for more women. Not so fast, let's look at it........ This is an exerpt from the 2nd link: "Racial/ethnic variations in male testosterone levels: A probable contributor to group differences in health Racial and ethnic variations in serum testosterone levels were investigated among a large sample of male Vietnam era veterans. Based on geometric means, significant average differences were found between 3,654 non-Hispanic white and 525 black individuals." It says that there were SIGNIFICANT DIFFERENCES betwen Blacks and Whites concerning their testosterone levels. Now it doesn't come right out and say that Blacks had significantly more, but hell...it can only mean Whites are significantly higher or Blacks are significantly higher.....lol. Based on evidence from other studies, I think it would be safe to infer that Blacks are the ones who are significantly higher. Now come on man... We all know that the term "Black" in America stands for people of African descent regardless of the amount of African ancestry they hold. Do you see promoting Black male sexuality and masculinity as offensive and stereotypical? Cynique I'm sure many women WOULD like to have it all but too many settle for the first loser who comes along and buys them a drink and gives them a compliment so who's fault is that? Most men need an INCENTIVE to accomplish things in life. (money, sex, fame, ect.....) Hell, if the women in thier lives are giving them money and a place to stay and sex too, why should they bother to be anything higher than what they already are....even if it's a walking dildo, lol. Whether he's a lawyer or a drug addict, if a woman sleeps with him she's telling him, "Baby....I love you just the way you are. If I didn't, I wouldn't be with you now." Worries about pregancy may decrease with age but worries about a dry "you-know-what" and getting thier hips knocked out of alignment from boy toys who play too rough tend to INCREASE, lol. What you said is funny because it reminded me of the trip I took to Europe when I was in my 20s. I met so many horny older women there I didn't know what to do with myself. Most people don't know that male prostitution is big in Europe as wealthy older women often pay younger men for sex, lol. When I came back to the States I started looking at society differently as I know that many people are hiding their secret desires here. Ain't you ever heard practice makes perfect LOL We both know that while a woman wants a good man to call her own, most would GLADLY share a good man with other women than have a sorry/unattractive one all to themselves. Now that's just a natural fact. One of the reasons polygamy has worked through out history is because men with wealth and power attact most of the women in thier vicinity and from them they can take thier pick. Hell, even a happily married man who is successful is often harrassed by women who KNOW the man is taken but still try to get on the bandwagon anyway. The history of polygamy around the world doesn't just revolve around women being oppressed, but it also includes women voluntarily submitting themselves to powerful wealthy men in order to guarantee financial and often physical security. The ego of most men are too big to submit themselves to sharing a woman.

Admin You can "predict" what your little 3 or 4 year old child can do; doesn't mean he/she isn't making choices and has no control over themselves. I personally think it's a mixture of both. Some things about our selves we can control, others we have no control over. Nor does ignorance about the role the Supreme Being and/or other deities play in our lives mean that they have no roles, any more than our lack of knowledge of what the military is doing means they aren't keeping the nation safe.....or because we've never met the police chief in our city and can't see what he's doing that he's not doing his job. Mistakes and erroneous assumptions by man does not add or take away from Who and What God is any more than me calling you an illiterate drop-out takes away from your academic achievements. If you believe things are planned, then there must be a Planner. But I do agree with you that often times this world can be so amazingly complex and unpredictable that man has a habit of making up shit to deal with his inferiority complex. Robert Greene (48 Laws of Power) said, "The need for certainty is the greatest disease the mind faces" Cynique I agree. It's one thing to say that everything is predetermined and planned, and you attribute those blueprints to an Infinite Being. But to say everything is already predetermined and planned and set into motion.....THEN turn around and say that you don't know who did it or for what reason is a little spooky. ((eyes wide)) It seems to be good material for the ultimate sci-fi thriller, lol

Cynique A "thought that just jumped up in your head" huh.....????? Something tells me those thoughts have been marinating in that noggen for a good minute, lol. That petition you wrote against Black men would make even Martin Luther (not the King) step back and take notes for his next Reformation! Did you see that "Now........lol" I put on the end of my post? I put that there with YOU in mind, lol. I mentioned Troy by name, but if I had mentioned that YOU'D probably be tearing into this thread like a mad bull at a Christmas party just because I DARED to mention polygamy.....well...you probably wouldn't have even given me the satifaction of being right. Now Cynique, ((gentle smile)) Listen, as much as I'd love to trade licks with you over the male/female dynamics in the Black community, I can't have you wailing and crying about being the only female here and how it's not fair and how the men here are ganging up on you if somebody just agrees with ONE point I make....lol. So I'll just make several quick points and move on: 1. To answer your question why is polygamy the domain of men You KNOW that poly"ANDRY" will never work among women for 1 very important reason: Because sex drive is largely determined by testosterone and women in general only have a fraction of what men have, most women have a much lower sex drive and simply DON'T WANT to have mutliple sexual partners. 2. I support the right for a woman to have multiple men just like men can have multiple women if they so wish. And so does this society. I hear what you're saying about a double standard for men and women. And I agree, there is. But it's a SOCIAL standard, not legal. Regardless of what "society" may call her, no one is standing in the way and preventing any woman who wants multiple boyfriends from having them nor is anyone threatening to imprison them or stone them. This ain't Afganistan. Which leads me to my third point..... 3. Most women don't have mutliple men because THEY DON'T WANT MORE THAN ONE MAN in their life at one time. Because of thier biology and chemistry, most women are monogamous and seek comfort and security in only one man who can provide for her. Not all obviously, but most. Most women by nature seem to love only one man at a time while men can fall in love with more than one woman at one time. Take it from a man who HAS actually loved (genuine love) more than one woman at the same time, that it's real. 4. Women have much more to lose being promiscuous than men because they are more likely to get physically hurt by an abusive partner and because only they can get pregnant they are more likely left with the responsibility of caring for any children that would result. So society and nature encourages women to be less promiscuous and more careful when it comes to sexual activity than men. Most know this instinctively which is why they generarlly come to eachothers aid when they're having relationship problems more than men tend to do with eachother. The general theme is this...... Because of biological and important social reasons, while most men desire multiple women.....most women only desire one man. Encouraging polyandry among women won't work because most women just don't have the desire to do it. But you really shouldn't "Playa hate" on men who desire it for themselves just because YOU don't want to do it. Now rather than trying to "even the score" or "get back" at men; the noble thing to do is respect the inherent differences betwen males and females and stop trying to change men into women or condemn them if they don't conform to what nature has not designed them for. The only thing you should ask is that a man not lie to you and tell you that you're the only one he loves if he really has others AND that he take care of the children that he helped you bring into this world. *sigh*