Election 2024 retrospective

[Chevdove]

3 hours ago, richardmurray said:

 

I know you know but for argument sake...Black DOSers didn't come freely, because of our background we don't have a country, africa is a continent not a country. and, if black DOSers have any connection to any land in africa, none are countries but cities or regions in three countries: ethiopia/sierra leone/liberia , not any of those countries in total but a region in each. and regions that are financially poor and never been able to wage a war let alone a war successfully as japan did.  

Japanese, white asians, didn't get reparations, they got support.  Black DOSers need reparations.

 

Thank you for explaining the distinction between 'support' versus 'reparations' @richardmurray 

I do believe you, in that DOSers need reparations and the distinction you outlined about support earlier helps to understand this issue even more. 

But I also want to add that, the educational system here in America poses other points and that may add to the confusion.

I remember being drilled on certain issues about the Jews, whether in Europe or elsewhere and I later learned on my own about what you have said about their participation in the wars and slavery! But, in school, we are drilled on how the Jews were treated during the Holocaust. In fact, it is a mandatory part of the curriculum, especially during your 8th Grade year. So, whether it is deemed support or reparations, the Jewish survivors of the Holocaust were given a lot of 'support' or 'reparations'. 

 

And I later read about how the Japanese were put in camps in California and treated violently during the war. And as you have said, they participated in the wars against the western powers. But the treatment that women, children and old people received in America was horrible. So then, I later read that these victims, survivors, were given a lot of 'retribution' or 'support' or 'reparations' by the American government. 

 

So I do understand that DOSers need more than just support, but reparations. 

 

4 hours ago, richardmurray said:

 

Community is what got the land back. So, yes, the family won, but the community did not.

Stephanie Sy:

The work, Ward says, will continue, the reckoning far from over.

 

Thank you!

 

4 hours ago, richardmurray said:

While in truth said white jews or japanese plus the black family in california were each given support, which can be given, but as the black family proves, support isn't reparations. 

 

Yes, I can understand that there is definitely a distinction. DOSers were stolen from their homelands and that information is lost for many! And even for those who may find out by taking an ancestry test or what have you, it means nothing because now, the cultural divide is a major issue. African Americans are a distinct culture a part from peoples of African cultures. 

 

4 hours ago, richardmurray said:

7 hours ago, Chevdove said:

Most African American DOS are indeed intermixed with First Peoples and so even if they come first, it would be a direct benefit to the DOS. The problem is just who are the correct First Peoples that were victims of massacres and enslavement and etc.? This government knows, but they don't want to acknowledge this. 

you sure the government knows? 

 

Oh yes. I believe that they do. They wrote down and kept records about certain First peoples but they coded it in such a way that it may be a challenge to understand. But the British were here early and lived among the American Indians for decades before they executed their evil deeds to attack them and steal their land. 

4 hours ago, richardmurray said:

7 hours ago, Chevdove said:

in this American government, do you really believe that is attainable when they will always use their age old tactics of divide and conquer?

Possibility says it is possible, probability says the odds are against it,but the questions then follow  if the black populace in the usa can't be its true self in the usa, what can it be ? Can it live a lie of its own making? 

 

Not sure I understand what you are saying. Prior to the invasion of the Europeans, American people were already divided but that doesn't mean that they were fighting against each other, IMO. But maybe the Europeans use the differences among the tribal people to stir up problems and so, if the indigenous peoples and DOSers can come together and learn how to deal with these issues, then it would be positive. However, I am pessimistic about it happening as long as the same Europeans are here and will always intervene to stir up problems. 

 

4 hours ago, richardmurray said:

Well the modern black populace in the usa has challenges, the biggest tribe, the DOSers have fought hard and find themselves a set of individuals, the smaller tribes like various immigrant groups: jamaicans/nigerians/haitians/black dominicans/black seminoles or similars have their communities that they have been able to grow freely. smalelr so easier tog ather and coordinate. But have a relationship to the usa that is unlike the DOSers. so... challenges for the village. In the same way it is possible that the tribes can do as I said, i also know it is possible for the tribes to find a greater unity. Possiblility is still odds against in the usa. but, it can happen. 

HAppy you found different ways to connect to the village where you at, and maybe you cna make hose groups stronger. Find the book club and maybe see if you guys can help a library. Does your local community have a library. To black churches, well, what does your local community need? Maybe you can make the church open area a garden, make food for the needy. 

 

Well said! I am always searching to be positive and to find a society that I can help expand. 

 

[richardmurray]

@Chevdove

21 hours ago, Chevdove said:

But I also want to add that, the educational system here in America poses other points and that may add to the confusion.

oh yes many groups, not just white women like the daughters of the revolution have manipulated education to fit their agenda. This is why jimmy carter started the department of education, so that a federal organization can exist to influence education at the state level as the fifty different educational systems were all rotten in some ways, and needed oversight. 

 

21 hours ago, Chevdove said:

African Americans are a distinct culture a part from peoples of African cultures. 

yes , and you can see in 2024 , modernity how much. It is not a visual thing, but it is an ancestry thing, a relationship to the usa thing. 

21 hours ago, Chevdove said:

Oh yes. I believe that they do.

even enough

21 hours ago, Chevdove said:

Not sure I understand what you are saying.

Even question.

Possibility is whether something can happen. Probability is the odds.

for example, is it possible i can die in twenty four hours?  yes What is the probability? ten percent,definitely not fifty percent.

so when you asked

21 hours ago, Chevdove said:

in this American government, do you really believe that is attainable when they will always use their age old tactics of divide and conquer?

the attainment is possible. But the probability is low. 

[Chevdove]

On 11/23/2024 at 8:08 PM, richardmurray said:

oh yes many groups, not just white women like the daughters of the revolution have manipulated education to fit their agenda. This is why jimmy carter started the department of education, so that a federal organization can exist to influence education at the state level as the fifty different educational systems were all rotten in some ways, and needed oversight. 

 

 

That's interesting news. So former president Carter started the Department of Education. Wow! 

But now, guess what I heard?

I heard that Trump wants to take the power away from the Federal government and allow the States to do what they want to do with the educational system. 

 

 

On 11/23/2024 at 8:08 PM, richardmurray said:

the attainment is possible. But the probability is low.

 

Okay, I understand now. 

 

[richardmurray]

@Chevdove

14 hours ago, Chevdove said:

That's interesting news. So former president Carter started the Department of Education. Wow! 

But now, guess what I heard?

I heard that Trump wants to take the power away from the Federal government and allow the States to do what they want to do with the educational system. 

well listen, when ronald reagan ran for president initially,1979,  he promised to get rid of the department of education. 

so the point is, many have disliked the existence of that department since it was founded, like the post office, which had detractors from its founding. 

many governmental organizations have millions who have opposed them from day one, but the bureaucracy as well as those benefitting from it, make t hard to undo. 

The FBI have detractors from day one. 

I don't think Schrumpft will kill the department of education. i hear he wants to break it apart, and shove the pieces in other departments, so he wants to quiet it essentially. not delete it but quiet it under the bureaucracy of the government, which will lead to less oversight for states. 

The thing people forget is jmmy carter was from georgia:) he comprehended that many southern states and in fact all states need oversight for their  education because all states have a history of natural inequality or dysfunction to certain groups. 

we will see:)

 

[Chevdove]

On 11/25/2024 at 5:23 PM, richardmurray said:

well listen, when ronald reagan ran for president initially,1979,  he promised to get rid of the department of education. 

so the point is, many have disliked the existence of that department since it was founded, like the post office, which had detractors from its founding. 

many governmental organizations have millions who have opposed them from day one, but the bureaucracy as well as those benefitting from it, make t hard to undo. 

The FBI have detractors from day one. 

I don't think Schrumpft will kill the department of education. i hear he wants to break it apart, and shove the pieces in other departments, so he wants to quiet it essentially. not delete it but quiet it under the bureaucracy of the government, which will lead to less oversight for states. 

The thing people forget is jmmy carter was from georgia:) he comprehended that many southern states and in fact all states need oversight for their  education because all states have a history of natural inequality or dysfunction to certain groups. 

we will see:)

 

 

This all very interesting.

I can't imagine why though. Why wouldn't the federal government not want to oversee education on a federal level?

And for what purpose would Trump want to even quiet it? 

 

 

[richardmurray]

@Chevdove

9 minutes ago, Chevdove said:

I can't imagine why though. Why wouldn't the federal government not want to oversee education on a federal level?

And for what purpose would Trump want to even quiet it? 

I will answer the questions in reverse, 

Scrumpft comprehends that achieving what you said is the best way to guarantee support among. so many elected officials make government seem hard, it isn't. do what you said, deliver on promises, truthfully. so few elected officials do and they get angry when voters don't support them, as if hope is more valuable than accomplishment

 

Well, in defense, the usa was started as a loose confederation of states. The white mal slavers called founding fathers usually, made the articles of confederation first. So they clearly didn't believe in federal intervention. The federal government for them and for whites in general has always been a mostly militaristic entity. But black DOSers and then many other non white europeans see the federal government as the counterbalance to white european dominance in states/counties/cities. Remember it was the federal government that made little rock possible. arkansas  and many other states would never have allowed black people in their state to break the color barrier. so whites have always seen the federal government outside the military as a meddler in affairs , and the federal government when populated with said whites gets the federal government out, but when non whites enter the usa government they tend to support federal power as that is the only power that allows for anything. 

I know black people who live in black towns or black communities in mostly white towns in many places in the usa far from new york city and they have said to me many times, if not for the federal government, they would have nothing because the city/county/state is dominated by local whites who want to oppress the non white 

[Chevdove]

9 minutes ago, richardmurray said:

Well, in defense, the usa was started as a loose confederation of states.

 

Oh WOW. You're right!

You've refreshed my memory.

But, I think too, that the formation under a federal system was bound to happen anyway. 

Back then, I don't think that they were going to win if it did remain in the hands of a few confederates. 

 

[richardmurray]

@Chevdove

9 hours ago, Chevdove said:

But, I think too, that the formation under a federal system was bound to happen anyway. 

Back then, I don't think that they were going to win if it did remain in the hands of a few confederates. 

 

you ask a thoughtful historical question. 

When most people today speak of federalism we think of sovereign states of elected representatives joined together but if you expand federalism as any union of sovereigns, the roman empire was a federation of provinces, many provinces controlled by a general thus a level of sovereignty . What is my point? I think federalism was bound to happen, as you say,  if you consider said white slavers wanted to make washington a king. He would had been a king of states, an elected king of states, a federation under a crown, which isn't unheard of in european history, that was the holy roman empreror, which was actually centered in modern day germany , not rome or italy. 

 

as for the military success of the usa at its infancy well, the three reasons were simple. 

1)The atlantic ocean

2)the impotency of Black DOSer+ First People allies to the English

3) the involvement of france

 

The atlantic ocean meant the english couldn't send a larger force to the thirteen colonies absent leaving their flank over to france who borders england by a channel. The reason why military vessels about the water are all nuclear powered is the energy it takes to push through water is not little, sailboats really couldn't do that in the same way so had timing limitations that aided the thirteen colonies more than anything else. 

 

Second, DOSers + First Peoples were just to impotent. 

More first peoples needed to fight against the colonist , i argue all did , but all didn't. And most blacks as you know were enslaved during these fights, the enslaved black populations even at that time counter for a near majority in many southern states. And in my view all the free blacks should had fought against the colonist but as we know, they didn't either. Even in the usa's infancy, the individual allowance, the individual opportunity breaks communal strength.. which makes sense. In any group some will always exist who want to go their own way and when someone offers them the opportunity they will take it. 

 

Third, which is one of the odd things that most don't calculate in the colonist victory, is france. France backed the usa heavily against the british, money/food/arms, in the same way  the usa backed afghanistan against the soviet era russians..  and as history goes in cycles, in the same way, the usa didn't become a strict partner with france is the same way, afghanistan didn't become a strict partner with the usa. 

 

The confederation of the colonies is at best fourth or irrelevant to the militaristic victory the colonist had. BUt, it is not unimportant. Benjamin franklin comprehended what you see Chevdove, that the identity after the fight is what is most important and going back to history this is why, china/cuba survive and thrive better than their ther non white european  contemporaries in asia/africa/central or south america or the caribbean. BEnjamin frnaklin like Castro like Mao comprehended what is this country after we win the war. Fighting the war is easy, oppressor is over there, get them. But if you win the war, your identity after is hard. 

After the battle against the oppressor is won the questions are: who are we? what do we want? how do we want to live? where do we want to go? when do we want to change or not change? why should we do anything? these are the questions that Ben Frnaklin found answered in the form of federalism he pushed for. 

He knew the colonies hated each other. He knew they only united cause the wealthy slavers in control of each wanted more money free from england's control. He knew that the enslaved black populace , the various white religious groups, the first peoples were all not invited to the table but would inevitably have a role to play in things. 

So, what about a federal government of elected officials. A federal system of law that is more flexible than any state within it. careful language so as to be able to bend in the future a little, not a lot, a little. This will give slow change which will be painful for many but will also slow down various fast movements. 

When you look at Mandela's south africa, which i focus on as it is one of the last non white european country to create a government and mandela, the former long term prisoner to whites,  looked to mirror the english parliamentary system. You see the difference. South africa has four peoples: blacks the undeniable majority but a set of tribes in itself who sometimes fight and only align strong agaisnt whites, whites the wealthiest and whose main goal is isolation and ways to disenfranchise blacks, the colored populace, inevitable between black and white who has grown and grown but has to choose between either , the indian populace a tiny populace that tend to be financially wealthy but disempowered from the heights of government through the blacks or finance through the whites. 

The parliamentary system is totally dysfunctional to fit the people of south africa. thus, in 2025, all of these populaces are dysfunctional.

The black populace infights between getting rid of all the non blacks, living with the non blacks, black individuals who care little for the black group but want to profit off of it 's position, small black tribes in south africa that don't have the quantity of people  to do great things but are doing efficient things. 

The white populace has two groups, wealthy whites trying to live in gated communities reflecting a desire to live in the south africa of yore absent the presence of blacks. A poor white group that works with blacks but has a love hate relationship that doesn't have any chance of settling on which.

The colored populace that embraces the mandela project but doesn't have the money the whites have or the population the blacks have to turn that desire into what most of south africa wants. 

Lastly, the indians who are just coasting in the country, almost mythical widl west style, playing their cards where they can.

confederation wasn't what won the colonies the war against the english but thinking on what their union, what federation will be before the war ended gave the white slavers who rule the colonies a better idea of what will be wiser than merely mimicking what they knew or come from. 

[Chevdove]

On 11/27/2024 at 1:19 PM, richardmurray said:

 

The black populace infights between getting rid of all the non blacks, living with the non blacks, black individuals who care little for the black group but want to profit off of it 's position, small black tribes in south africa that don't have the quantity of people  to do great things but are doing efficient things. 

 

 

This is very informative. I read this more than once. History is very important to me. Also, history is frustrating because I don't believe that our educational system provided a good outline for everyone to really know the vital aspects of it, especially when it comes to American history. Your breakdown on certain topics here and correlating it to South African history is really good. The infighting you describes reminds me of what happened to the American Indians as well. 

 

I believe that many ethnic people do not think like the Europeans who formed this American government and the ones who formed certain leagues in Europe too. I believe that the formation of Western civilizations was not just based on present cultures but the mindset goes all the way back in time and on a much larger scale. And so the infighting that you described is because those kind of tribal people and kingdoms was due to how they think on a much smaller scale. 

 

On 11/27/2024 at 1:19 PM, richardmurray said:

sent the presence of blacks. A poor white group that works with blacks but has a love hate relationship that doesn't have any chance of settling on which.

The colored populace that embraces the mandela project but doesn't have the money the whites have or the population the blacks have to turn that desire into what most of south africa wants. 

 

Yes, so here it is: How in the world can Black people not see the bigger picture here!? There is no way that the small group of wealthy Whites could live in South Africa successfully without having major support from a much larger government that was working outside of South Africa. And even though this was not obvious when the American were fighting against the British, it was still happening. You gave a great breakdown on how the French sided with the usa against the British, but there was a lot of other unseen acts also going on at the same time. The French supported the Americas but prior to that, they sided with the Indians too. And then there was the huge Spanish forces that also had a hand in how the American government eventually formed under a Federal government. I am still in the learning phase about all of this. But recently, I read that the president of Mexico was trying to organize a federal system in the 1800s but the Americans were still fighting against each other and did not, for the most part, want a federal government due to issues with the divisions about chattel slavery. I just recently leaned that a lot of Southern Slavers migrated from the east into Texas to fight against the formation of a federal government so that they could keep their slaves. WOW! 

 

 

 

[ProfD]

1 hour ago, Chevdove said:

This is very informative. I read this more than once. History is very important to me. Also, history is frustrating because I don't believe that our educational system provided a good outline for everyone to really know the vital aspects of it, especially when it comes to American history.

For several decades now, Black folks have studied all types of history and religion. 

 

To date, Black folks haven't used their *knowledge* to overthrow the system of racism white supremacy.

 

1 hour ago, Chevdove said:

Yes, so here it is: How in the world can Black people not see the bigger picture here!? There is no way that the small group of wealthy Whites could live in South Africa successfully without having major support from a much larger government that was working outside of South Africa.

Even deeper is there's no shortage of Black South Africans who have sold out in order to help the white minority maintain privilege and power there. 

 

No different from the USA in that regard.  Black folks and poor people *know* who's running the show. the oppressors aren't hiding it.

 

For several reasons,  fear (Black folks) and anti-Black sentiment (white folks) among other issues, keeps them from putting their differences aside in order overthrow the system of racism white supremacy.

[richardmurray]

@Chevdove

On 11/29/2024 at 6:11 PM, Chevdove said:

This is very informative. I

 well thank you.  controlling narratives through how history is presented is as old as humanity itself. It is rare to find anywhere in humanity present history honestly, cause honest history usually makes everyone to blame, and if you teach the children how everyone is to blame then it deletes the ability of children to grow up trying to not be blamed and instead focus on solutions

 

On 11/29/2024 at 6:11 PM, Chevdove said:

Yes, so here it is:

yeah, it is complicated, your correct.