Racism and prejudice in America

[Delano]

Do you think racism and discrimination will end in America. State your reasoning.

[ProfD]

Absolutely not.

 

In fact, the current administration is aggressively pursuing a white nationalist programme.

 

IMO, racism and prejudice will be more clearly defined in the US.

 

It's going to be interesting to see how non-white folks deal with white folks closing ranks and excluding others.

 

Many groups of people already have cultural ties that bind them. They have been building structures to help each other.

 

IMO, most AfroAmerican tribes do not have an infrastructure of self-sufficiency in place to weather the storm if/when white folks pull the rug from underneath them.

[umbrarchist]

In what century?

 

I consider the probability of the United States ceasing to exist as a country to by higher than the probability of racism ending.

.

[aka Contrarian]

Race will always be a factor. In most cases, it will impact negatively. But class will  also exert an influence and money will be the bottom line on an individual basis when it comes to the grand scheme of things.

[umbrarchist]

19 minutes ago, aka Contrarian said:

class will  also exert an influence and money will be the bottom line on an individual basis

I knew a White man who drove a Bentley. He parked it in the lot of a shopping mall where he owned a health club. I did work on his wi-fi and network and security cameras.

 

People spend money to play status games with each other. The Laws of Physics do not care. The planet's natural resources are being turned to shit for status games.

 

If money is so important why aren't Black Americans advocating that all Black kids understand accounting?

 

 

[aka Contrarian]

@umbrarchist I have no idea why blacks parents don't teach accounting and  a whole lot of other things to their children. But what I do know,  is that money talks. 

[umbrarchist]

Money and Wealth are different things. People who throw away money on crap designed to Depreciate will have trouble accumulating wealth.

 

Then we have corporations hiding information and distributing bad information. I watched it at IBM.

 

I tried paying some nieces and nephews to read some books I selected. They refused!

 

The Screwing of the Average Man by David Hapgood 

.

[aka Contrarian]

@umbrarchistMy initial statement was in response to the question Delano posed about racism. 

People accumulate wealth and they spend money. And institutionalized racism remains in place. 

Trial and error is a good teacher. Anybody who is employed and budgets their money is automatically an accountant. Some people are better at this than others, however.  And so it goes...

[umbrarchist]

6 hours ago, aka Contrarian said:

Trial and error is a good teacher.

Sharing good information should be faster.

[ProfD]

7 minutes ago, umbrarchist said:

Sharing good information should be faster.

Free information is readily available.  It does not have to be shared.  The goats can get it.

 

It is really up to the individual and whether or not they will seek and consume the information that is most helpful to them. 

 

Forcing information on people is pointless.  Make it readily available. Let the individual decide whether they want to fail or succeed.

[frankster]

15 hours ago, Delano said:

Do you think racism and discrimination will end in America. State your reasoning.

They are many forms of Racism....some will eventually be reduce to minimal levels

Others will stay with us in tiny pockets or in specific centers/organizations of power for much longer

 

The Racism that are most dangerous numbers wise are luckily the one most likely to go away..

Such are Structural Systemic and Institutional.

Interpersonal Racism such as Bigotry prejudice discrimination and colorism/featurism will be with us much longer.

Technically Colorism/featurism is not Racism in the traditional sense....it is a form of Bais - based on prejudice

 

9 hours ago, ProfD said:

Absolutely not.

 

In fact, the current administration is aggressively pursuing a white nationalist programme.

True

 

9 hours ago, ProfD said:

 

IMO, racism and prejudice will be more clearly defined in the US.

Imo it is dying...

 

9 hours ago, ProfD said:

 

It's going to be interesting to see how non-white folks deal with white folks closing ranks and excluding others.

Those whites closing ranks will get smaller and smaller though they will remain powerful and wealthy...for a while

 

9 hours ago, ProfD said:

 

Many groups of people already have cultural ties that bind them. They have been building structures to help each other.

True

 

9 hours ago, ProfD said:

 

IMO, most AfroAmerican tribes do not have an infrastructure of self-sufficiency in place to weather the storm if/when white folks pull the rug from underneath them.

That is true today...It seems to be changing to me

 

7 hours ago, aka Contrarian said:

Race will always be a factor. In most cases, it will impact negatively. But class will  also exert an influence and money will be the bottom line on an individual basis when it comes to the grand scheme of things.

Race as a factor will go away before Class....and the wealthy tops both

 

7 hours ago, umbrarchist said:

Money and Wealth are different things. People who throw away money on crap designed to Depreciate will have trouble accumulating wealth.

 

Then we have corporations hiding information and distributing bad information. I watched it at IBM.

 

I tried paying some nieces and nephews to read some books I selected. They refused!

 

The Screwing of the Average Man by David Hapgood 

.

Ok Okay you have recommended this book so many times I will now have to read it

[Troy]

Racism will eventually end in America @Delano. It has been dying slowly for the past 100 years. Every successive generation has been less racist than the one before it. All the hand wringing over efforts against DEI is just racism thrashing in its death throes. Mostly dimwits, especially older ones that adhere to racist ideology today and they are decreasing in numbers

 

If this country can manage to last another 100 years it will see the end of racism. Future generations will look back on us they way we look at white people who used to enslave their own children. 

 

Prejudice is a different story.  It will probably be with us as it is part of human nature.

 

37 minutes ago, frankster said:

Ok Okay you have recommended this book so many times I will now have to read it

 

Ha Ha!  I'm not sure why @umbrarchist is so fixated on accounting.  Accounting tells you nothing about acquiring and building wealth; it is little more than the rules of financial record keeping.  Sure, like taxes understanding the rules of accounting can help you keep more of your money.  But you have to earn the money first.

 

 

[umbrarchist]

5 hours ago, ProfD said:

Free information is readily available.  It does not have to be shared.  The goats can get it.

 

I didn't say FREE, I said GOOD.

 

Lots of information that you have to pay for is bullshit. And important parts can be missing.

 

I had to write my own benchmarks at IBM and I was an employee.

[umbrarchist]

4 hours ago, Troy said:

@Delano. It has been dying slowly for the past 100 years

It has been becoming socially discouraged to express it. How many ways does it get implemented without notice.

 

I applied for a job as an electronic tech at a company that made laser and electron beam welding machines. They had some really cool tech. I aced their test. When they were escorting me out the old guy giving me the "Don't call us, we'll call you." lecture said, "It doesn't matter how much you know about electronics, you have to know welding." There was not a single question about welding on that test.

 

See if demonstrating that you are smarter than some White guys doesn't bring out Racism right quick. Intelligence and knowledge are two things. Lots of people with knowledge. What happens when the problem demands both?

 

But that is "Acting White"!

[umbrarchist]

6 hours ago, Troy said:

Ha Ha!  I'm not sure why @umbrarchist is so fixated on accounting.  Accounting tells you nothing about acquiring and building wealth; it is little more than the rules of financial record keeping.

 

I have a thread where I wrote about economics and the economics profession ignoring the depreciation of durable consumer goods. That brings up planned obsolescence and ACCOUNTING for the depreciation of durable consumer goods. I once asked a PhD economist to explain how a gas engine worked. He couldn't even start but he drove a white SUV.

 

In the 1980s I bought a 4-unit apartment building. If I had had an accounting course when I was in high school the financial management of that building would have been much easier. I probably could have found lots more tax deductions and been better organized.

 

But I don't even know if my high school had an accounting course when I was there. To me it looks like Black Americans let White people tell us what EDUCATION is. And working at IBM certainly showed me that the White people are hiding information from each other.

 

So there is more to the game than Racism.

[frankster]

6 hours ago, umbrarchist said:

certainly showed me that the White people are hiding information from each other.

 

 

So there is more to the game than Racism.

True...

Westerm Racism has most of its roots in classism ..... Rich whites did not want poor and indentured whites uniting with enslaved Africans in Rebellion.

The Anglo-Saxon Aristocracy in the US called the Plantocracy or Landowners created and instituted Racism..

They were exceptions and the Aristocracy was not monolithic

Slavery is about economics....Racism is about Power - personal social and political etc..

[ProfD]

11 hours ago, umbrarchist said:

To me it looks like Black Americans let White people tell us what EDUCATION is.

Black Americans live within a system set up by white folks.

 

5 hours ago, frankster said:

Slavery is about economics....Racism is about Power - personal social and political etc..

The system of racism white supremacy was built on that foundation. 

18 hours ago, Troy said:

Racism will eventually end in America @Delano. It has been dying slowly for the past 100 years. Every successive generation has been less racist than the one before it. 

 

If this country can manage to last another 100 years it will see the end of racism. Future generations will look back on us they way we look at white people who used to enslave their own children. 

White people might become less racist but IMO, the system of racism white supremacy will not be dying any time soon.

[umbrarchist]

2 minutes ago, ProfD said:

Black Americans live within a system set up by white folks.

My mother sent me to a Catholic school. Haoles in control!

 

I remember one morning in 3rd grade, 8 years old, trying to keep from crying because the idea of getting through another day of ABYSMAL BOREDOM was so Repugnant.

 

Then I discovered Science Fiction in 4th grade.

 

Star Surgeon by Alan Edward Nourse

https://gutenberg.org/ebooks/18492

 

After that I was hunting down Science Fiction books that my mother called "Something Crazy". She did have a set of encyclopedia outside my bedroom door. I used those encyclopedia more to look up stuff I found in SF books than I did for school.

 

Boredom at school was no longer a problem because I could sit there giving the Nitwit Nuns less than 20% of my attention while thinking about something else entirely.

 

I cannot recall a single book from my parents thru K-8. If they had suggested something I would have read it. The only reason I trust White people to tell me the time of day is because it is so easy to check.

 

So why don't Black Americans have a K-12 Recommended book list for Black kids. I have suggested books on Black websites for years.

 

I actually think Black Americans are more stingy with knowledge than White people. And I think part of the problem is forcing kids to compete with each other. Black boys/men are real competitive but mostly about physical stuff, sports and fighting.

 

BORING!!!

[ProfD]

27 minutes ago, umbrarchist said:

I cannot recall a single book from my parents thru K-8. If they had suggested something I would have read it.

Of course, while we have a love for reading, it has to be nurtured in many people.

 

Parents with little to no love for reading aren't going to pass it to their children.

 

27 minutes ago, umbrarchist said:

So why don't Black Americans have a K-12 Recommended book list for Black kids. I have suggested books on Black websites for years.

IMO, reading has never made a high priority among other life lessons. 

 

There are people who will happily admit that they *hate* to read. 

 

Most of the Bibles people have in their homes and/or take back and forth to church haven't been read cover to cover.

 

Forever, I remember hearing that the best hiding place for anything was in a book.

 

 

27 minutes ago, umbrarchist said:

Black boys/men are real competitive but mostly about physical stuff, sports and fighting.

Primal instinct.  At one point in time, men had to be be physically fit and know how to fight in order to survive. 

 

While we don't have to rely so much on our physical abilities for survival, we should maintain it. 

 

Never know when it might be necessary to run and/or fight.  Sitting around reading books won't save a life.

[aka Contrarian]

I tend to believe readers are born, not made. Curiosity plays a great role in the pursuit of knowledge via the printed word. How your brain is wired influences your curiosity. 

I READ somewhere that there are people who if never taught to read, would learn to do so on their own.

Unfortunately, being an avid reader is not synonymous with being rich and successful. 

[Pioneer1]

On 5/6/2025 at 1:34 AM, Delano said:

Do you think racism and discrimination will end in America. State your reasoning.

First of all "racism" and "discrimination" are two different concepts that often overlap

Secondly, because they're different...I will answer your question accordingly for both of them.

Forget about America alone, as long as flaws exist in humanity PERIOD discrimination WON'T end and SHOULDN'T end.
However racism WILL end only when different races no longer exist.

[Troy]

On 5/7/2025 at 5:09 PM, aka Contrarian said:

Unfortunately, being an avid reader is not synonymous with being rich and successful.

 

More important is happiness I would be willing to bet readers, certainly curious people, who pursue knowledge, overindex on happiness?

 

On 5/7/2025 at 8:00 PM, Pioneer1 said:

racism will end when different races no longer exist.

 

It has been proven race doesn't.  Which is why racism is dying.

[Pioneer1]

1 hour ago, Troy said:

 

It has been proven race doesn't.  Which is why racism is dying.

Really?
Who?

Certainly not SCIENCE

Check out an excerpt from this article out about the disparities between the RACES when it comes to Diabetes:


 

Racial and Ethnic Disparities in Diabetes Mellitus

Diabetes mellitus (DM) has a disproportionately higher impact on minority communities in the United States (US). Presently, 13% of the general adult population in the US has diabetes. Figure 1 illustrates the notable variation in diabetes prevalence among racial and ethnic groups in the US. The data informing the graph, as depicted in Figure 1, were sourced from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention’s National Diabetes Statistics Report 2020

Health and Racial Disparities in Diabetes Mellitus Prevalence, Management, Policies, and Outcomes in the United States - PMC


Not only does it mention RACIAL disparities acknowledging that there are more than one races, but it says racial AND ethnic, which clearly establishes that race and ethnicity are NOT synonymous and that race in and of itself is recognized apart from ethnicity.
 

 

[Troy]

@Pioneer1  Yes, race and ethnicity are two different things.  You will find the word race used all over the place, but that does not mean that is has a basis in science. It is purely a social construct.  This is a reason I wish people would stop using the word because is confuses people like you and prolongs the acceptance of racism.

 

I skimmed the article, did you see the description "Hispanic" used?  What "race" are Hispanics? 

 

I'm surprised "American Indians" was used, as it is offensive and should be dispensed with too... but we live a white racist society and old habits die hard.

 

 

[Delano]

2 hours ago, Troy said:

but we live a white racist society and old habits die hard.

How can we live in a racist society of racism doesn't exist

[Troy]

To clarify @Delano ;

1. Even though it rejects everything modern science tell us, race will exist as long as there are enough people like @Pioneer1 to perpetuate it.
2. Racism, and all that comes along with it (i.e. white superiority), will continue as long as enough people embrace race.

There are many beliefs founded on complete and utter falsehoods.  These beliefs all come to an end... eventually.

 

 

 

[umbrarchist]

On 5/7/2025 at 1:11 PM, ProfD said:

Of course, while we have a love for reading, it has to be nurtured in many people.

 

Parents with little to no love for reading aren't going to pass it to their children.

Reading WHAT?

 

I do not LIKE to read. It is like a negative 2 experience. So a book has to be a Positive 3 at least.

 

That is the trouble with school. They force us to read Negative 2 books to get a grade. I read The Scarlet Letter and didn't give a damn about it. I refused to read Catcher in the Rye. A White boy so stupid he gets kicked out of multiple prep schools? To hell with him!

[Troy]

Fortunately, many schools read literature that is much more diverse -- seemingly too diverse for some.

[Delano]

1 hour ago, Troy said:

There are many beliefs founded on complete and utter falsehoods. 

Beliefs and facts are different. Both religion and science are belief systems. Mathematics is the most interesting belief system. Since it's axioms can't be proven yet it describes the world astonishingly well.

[ProfD]

4 hours ago, umbrarchist said:

Reading WHAT?

For people who enjoy reading, there's no shortage of material. It really depends on the interests of the reader. 

 

Of course, beyond reading for pleasure and entertainment, it's helpful to read material that enables one to grow in terms of knowledge, skill, ability and financial security. 

4 hours ago, umbrarchist said:

That is the trouble with school. They force us to read Negative 2 books to get a grade. 

The usefulness of certain subjects and course material in school curriculums has always been questioned.

 

There are several school types offering alternative curriculums to those mandated by public school systems.  

 

I believe most curriculums are intended to stimulate students intellectual development and curiosity. A spring-board into acquiring knowledge and information. 

 

Othewise, schools do not stop folks who love to read from reading books of interest to them.

[umbrarchist]

1 hour ago, ProfD said:

Othewise, schools do not stop folks who love to read from reading books of interest to them.

How many people learn to HATE reading in school so they don't look?

 

Since I started reading SF in 4th grade I might have been 8 or 9. But no one ever suggested it. To me they were all just books until then.

 

My very first SF book mentioned Computers. It was used to navigate the starship. That book is also how I learned that the Sun was a star and that all of the stars are suns. And how far away stars were. Blew my mind, long before Star Trek.

 

Then there is this:

 

 

Harvard seasons private universe

 

 

That is from 1988. I laughed my ass off when I saw it back then. What JOB needs for people to know what causes winter and summer? But it is so peculiar for "Educated" people to not know. It was never in any course I took, but you can't help but encounter "Orbital Mechanics" if you read enough science fiction.

 

The sky never looked the same again.

[Pioneer1]

Troy

 

 

Yes, race and ethnicity are two different things.  You will find the word race used all over the place, but that does not mean that is has a basis in science.

 

If it's being used in an official manner in scientific literature (as in the above article for example), it does.

You just refuse to accept it.

 

It is purely a social construct.
 

And????

 

I skimmed the article, did you see the description "Hispanic" used?  What "race" are Hispanics? 

They're made up of many races and combinations of races.

Racism, and all that comes along with it (i.e. white superiority), will continue as long as enough people embrace race.
 

And people will continue to embrace the concept of race as long as it remains a Reality.





 

Delano

 

How can we live in a racist society of racism doesn't exist
 

Good question.

And how can "racism" exist if there are no races???

[Troy]

On 5/8/2025 at 7:05 PM, Delano said:

Both religion and science are belief systems

Sure, but they are profoundly different. One is dogmatic, resistant to change, and based on a the words of someone. The other is open to change and is based on proof.

 

3 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

 What "race" are Hispanics? 

They're made up of many races and combinations of races.

The article breaks out black and white But then has a separate section for Hispanics, which you say includes black and white. Why do you think they pull out Hispanics?

[Pioneer1]

Troy

Because it discusses both race AND ethnicity.
Black and White refer to RACES but Hispanic refers to ETHNICITY so apparently they wanted to make the distinction clear.

[Troy]

Again Why breakout Hispanics? Do you have black and white? Just put the black Hispanics in the black group  and the white Hispanics in the white group. 

[Pioneer1]

10 minutes ago, Troy said:

Again Why breakout Hispanics? Do you have black and white? Just put the black Hispanics in the black group  and the white Hispanics in the white group. 

Obviously there ARE Blacks and Whites or they wouldn't talk about them in the article...lol.
 

Quote

Just put the black Hispanics in the black group  and the white Hispanics in the white group. 

 

Well since ethnicity largely revolves around CULTURE, perhaps because there are CULTURAL implications too that affect one's health that rise above race.
 

 

[Troy]

Yes, of course, but of all the ethnicities that exist, why choose that one to break out when you could easily put them in the black and white buckets

[Pioneer1]

28 minutes ago, Troy said:

Yes, of course, but of all the ethnicities that exist, why choose that one to break out when you could easily put them in the black and white buckets

Lol...man, what are you getting at?

Sounds like (@ProfD said: "reads like"....lol ) you're trying to set up an argument.

[ProfD]

1 hour ago, Troy said:

Again Why breakout Hispanics? Do you have black and white? Just put the black Hispanics in the black group  and the white Hispanics in the white group. 

White folks see all Hispanics the same regardless of their skin color and/or how they self-identify.

[Troy]

1 hour ago, Pioneer1 said:

Lol...man, what are you getting at?

 

I'm trying a different technique by asking questions that I hope will help you see things in a different way.

 

If you are trying to count the number of people Black and white people with diabetes give me a reason to justify excluding the Hispanic ones? 

 

My answer is there isn't one, but I'd like to read you justification for it.

[Delano]

9 hours ago, Troy said:

The other is open to change and is based on proof.

Look up how the Big Bang Theory got its name.

[umbrarchist]

On 5/8/2025 at 6:05 PM, Delano said:

Beliefs and facts are different. Both religion and science are belief systems.

 

Are you contradicting yourself?

 

How is Science a "Belief System" if you say Facts and Belief are different? One problem is that people do not use the word 'SUSPECT' very much. Just because something happens to be true or false that does not necessarily mean that sufficient evidence can found to determine the condition.

 

Scientific certainty means multiple tests always yield the same result. Facts, no Belief required. The problem is so many people certain about Belief.

[Delano]

48 minutes ago, umbrarchist said:

On 5/9/2025 at 9:05 AM, Delano said:

Beliefs and facts are different. Both religion and science are belief systems.

 

Are you contradicting yourself?

No

Beliefs are based on assumptions and experiences. Facts are based on observations and knowledge.

 

You can't prove things in science. You cannot say based on current knowledge we believe this to be true.

 

There is no certainty however you ban say at what level you are confident that your hypothesis is true. 

 

Scientist happen to have biases as well. At one point Astrology and Alchemy were part of science.

[Pioneer1]

Troy

 

I'm trying a different technique by asking questions that I hope will help you see things in a different way.

 

Sounds to me like you're trying to either confuse or take the focus off of the obvious...lol.
That science clearly acknowledges race and racial differences!

 

 

If you are trying to count the number of people Black and white people with diabetes give me a reason to justify excluding the Hispanic ones? 

 

Because Blacks and Whites are RACES and Hispanic is not.

 

[Troy]

37 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:

That science clearly acknowledges race and racial differences!

even I “acknowledge” race and racial differences, but that does not mean that it is scientifically valid. It’s just the language we use. I call myself black but I’m not black. I’ll call white people white but they are not white.

 

We’ve gone over this a bazillion times and you will never get it. You will never find any scientific paper or citation or assertion describing a scientifically derived basis for race. What you will find in the modern science is a rejection of race. The scientific community has moved on from this, before you and I were even . The human genome project put the nails in the coffin a quarter century ago.
 

Again, I know people hold onto old ideas because it fucks with their worldview and that’s hard for some people, especially racists.

Why any black person would perpetuate a white racist social construct is beyond me.

[Pioneer1]

1 hour ago, Troy said:

even I “acknowledge” race and racial differences, but that does not mean that it is scientifically valid. It’s just the language we use. I call myself black but I’m not black. I’ll call white people white but they are not white.

 

We’ve gone over this a bazillion times and you will never get it. You will never find any scientific paper or citation or assertion describing a scientifically derived basis for race. What you will find in the modern science is a rejection of race. The scientific community has moved on from this, before you and I were even . The human genome project put the nails in the coffin a quarter century ago.
 

Again, I know people hold onto old ideas because it fucks with their worldview and that’s hard for some people, especially racists.

Why any black person would perpetuate a white racist social construct is beyond me.

Why???

Lol...you just EXPLAINED why, when you said why YOU acknowledge it also.
It's the language we use.