For me it's James Baldwin, Audrey Lorde and Samuel Delaney. Interestingly all are homosexuals and have been in interracial relationships.

Kindred spirits?

I'm rather impressed withTa-Nehisi Coates and Angela Davis.

Among the living, Dr. Cornel West & Michael Eric Dyson engage in quite a bit of intellectualism.😎

I see you all like smart people who are down with and advocate for Black people--my tribe.

21 hours ago, Troy said:

Kindred spirits?

There are some similarities James Baldwin was involved in the non violent arm of the Civil Rights Movement. Yet he felt the Black Panthers was also important. Was vocal about even though as a homosexual, the Panthers, would have rejected him. His emotions did colour his thinking even though he was quite emotional. He was also a disorganised.

Audrey Lorde was initially married to a white man and I believe she has a daughter. Then she became a lesbian. So she's an outsider among outsiders. I feel this informs her ideas.

Samuel Delaney is in the top two of my favourite writers. He was a professor and the University of Massachusetts. He picked up a homeless book seeler from Hell's Kitchen. As a lover wrote about it and they become live in lovers. Definitely lived on his own terms

Shameless name drop section. I heard.James Baldwin speak at my university. Went to a book signing by Samuel Delaney. I went to Audrey Lorde's funeral. Ironically I went to her funeral before I had read any of her works.

19 hours ago, aka Contrarian said:

I'm rather impressed with Ta-Nehisi Coates and Angela Davis.

Yes her book Women Race and Class is a book I have recommended to others. I am not familiar with Ta-Nehisi Coates. Other than he wrote for the Black Panther comic book and he moved to France

2 minutes ago, Delano said:

Baldwin speak at my university. Went to a book signing by Samuel Delaney. I went to Audrey Lorde's funeral. Ironically I went to her funeral before I had read any of her works.

Of course you did. You were a real New Yorker!

It is not shameless, it provides perspective. I've had dinner with West, Coates has been in my home, I've meet Dyson, and have seen Davis speak a couple of times once shooting video of her talking about Audre Lorde

Now I have never seen Baldwin or Lorde, as they passed before I knew who they were.

I have no recollection of seeing Delany. Though I enjoy science fiction, we roll in difference circles...

I wasn't familiar with Baldwin's writing at the time. However there are artist that I thought it was important to see. He was one of them.

@Troy I remember running into you and Jasper at the Nina Hendrix concert I Brooklyn. And a play that your friend was an actor. IT to Bookseller plus you have a wide range.

Brother Malik Shabaaz (Malcolm X) is one of my favorite Black intellectuals.
He was usually sharp on on point as well as witty with both friends and foes.

Neely Fuller Jr. is another favorite of mine.
Again, usually on point and sharp....even in his 90s.

@Delano you have a good memory. I saw Nona Hendrix a couple of times. The last was Summer Stage a Central Park and Black Rock Coalition event, but I don't recall if you or Jasper was at that event. Speaking of Jasper, I'm not sure you are aware of his transition. Dyson and West are always informative and entertaining.

I liked Dr. John Henrik Clarke. I saw him speak once. I thought Minister Farrakhan, in his prime, was one of the most powerful speakers I ever heard. I hear him give a lecture on Cornel's Campus back in the early 80s eye opening. Our course Malcolm X. The Nation trains their ministers well.

There are many others. One of the things I miss able NY City was the abundance of lectures one could attend--often for free.

@Troy no I didn't know about Jasper. I heard Farrakhan speaking Boston and met Minister Don Muhammad.

I will answer how I feel about some Black intellectuals already mentioned in the comments.

James Baldwin- I love his cutting honesty, from himself or to others. He admitted that he was unhappy in the usa in a complete way. and he admitted he returned to the usa when he saw the usa was extended everywhere outside. He didn't call usa home de facto cause he was born here, which so many Black DOSers say stupidly. Our forebears were enslaved , adult to children, don't tell me the usa is home to black children living in utter hell who were forced here. They need to choose the usa as home, it isn't de facto. Baldwin admitted something I rarely hear any black person admit to. That all/most of the black elders around him hated white people. Even today so many black DOSers seem to be apologist for black dislike of whites as if whites didn't earn this. I love the fact that he was off camera vibrantly homosexual. So many black DOSers hide their true selves their whole lives. Many Black militants who want to kill whites hide their whole lives in the usa, it is silly. Many Black whitephiles who dislike other black people for being black hide their whole lives in the usa, , acting like they like being around other black people, it is silly. Baldwin was very honest.

Angela Davis- I like that she is a survivor. and embraces that the battle has to be continued by the next generation. It isn't up for one person to be the leader and be at the frong forever and if the next generations aren't willing , then the results will be what they will be. I will never

Farrakhan- is a good reader of the environment, he recognized black men across the usa was looking for guidance, but sadly he wasted the opportunity to guide and instead convinced the black men of what they don't like about the usa.

@richardmurray I would venture a guess that you are older than me and as you attitude regarding both white people and how Black people should feel about this country is outdated, antiquated and does not reflect the feeling of the younger populace 😉

As mentioned, (in our other conversation on the subject) after a couple of dozen generations, Black DOSers are not "stupid" for calling America home -- it is a right we have earned if we choose to embrace it. Now it is obvious that we will we will always disagree on this point. But to call other Black people like me "stupid" is a poor word choice at best.

This broad brush you paint with ignores so much... For example, in you case @richardmurray where exactly is your home and why do you claim that particular place?

1 hour ago, Troy said:

...Black DOSers are not "stupid" for calling America home -- it is a right we have earned if we choose to embrace it. Now it is obvious that we will we will always disagree on this point. But to call other Black people like me "stupid" is a poor word choice at best.

The comedian Katt Williams' voice popped into my head as I read that line & thought...."is this mf,, er, dude really calling us stupid right now".🤣

@Troy...thanks for providing a more diplomatic response than I thought about typing.😁😎

If you guys weren't constantly bitchin' and whining about the lingering injustices of slavery in this country and the institutionalized racism that is designed to stifle Blacks, and keep them in their place and the omnipresent spectre of white supremacy and on and on and on, maybe Richard wouldn't look askance at the ambiguity of your relationship with this country.

Troy bristles with his contempt f or the pervasiveness of social media and all it involves, and ProfD makes no secret about being armed and amenable to vigilancy, never wavering in his goal of reparations.

Funny, I never got the impression that Richard was a member of a different generation than you two. His thinking is not archaic, to me.

All of which contributes to the elusiveness of black unity.

In watching the recentPBS special on WEB DuBois, I can't help but wonder what tribe he would belong to, were he still with us.

I, personally, have given up categorizing folks. How one views the world depends on their core personality, imo.

🙄

2 hours ago, aka Contrarian said:

If you guys weren't constantly bitchin' and whining about the lingering injustices of slavery in this country and the institutionalized racism that is designed to stifle Blacks, and keep them in their place and the ommipresent spectre of white supremacy and on and on and on...

There's a reason cable TV airs several programs about World War II every day of the week.

Why would white folks have on a continuous loop, a historical event (war) that happened 84 years ago & cost millions of lives?

2 hours ago, aka Contrarian said:

...maybe Richard wouldn't look askance at the ambiguity of your relationship with this country.

Funny, I never got the impression that Richard was a member of a different generation than you two. His thinking is not archaic, to me.

Don't know which generation to which he belongs but I believe @richardmurray would prefer to live in Haiti if unknown circumstances didn't prevent him from relocating there.😎

@ProfD Whatever the reason, there doesn't seem to be any resentment or conflicting emotions involved. White people love their country and are proud of how it dispersed with the bad guys and emerged victorious from WW2.

Maybe Richard will respond to Troy's post and clear the air.

1 hour ago, aka Contrarian said:

White people love their country and are proud of how it dispersed with the bad guys and emerged victorious from WW2.

White folks repeat history, music & everything else they cherish. They don't allow anything treasured &/or that reinforces white supremacy to fall down the memory hole.

AfroAmerican/FBA/ADOS should never allow white folks to forget about the legacy of slavery & the reparations they owe us.

That also includes attacking the system of racism white supremacy.

Many ministers & speakers as a part of their cadence repeat certain words & phrases for emphasis. Repetition makes messages & lessons stick.

I'm neither a minister or public speaker but as a musician, I understand the method. We do the same thing with music i.e. repeating certain motifs.😎

@Troy

11 hours ago, Troy said:

where exactly is your home and why do you claim that particular place?

i have said before in this very forum many many times, i am stateless, from my view. I know the legal standing i have by the white country I live in, but I have my own position to myself.

@aka Contrarian

8 hours ago, aka Contrarian said:

If you guys weren't constantly bitchin' and whining about the lingering injustices of slavery in this country and the institutionalized racism that is designed to stifle Blacks, and keep them in their place and the omnipresent spectre of white supremacy and on and on and on, maybe Richard wouldn't look askance at the ambiguity of your relationship with this country.

Troy bristles with his contempt f or the pervasiveness of social media and all it involves, and ProfD makes no secret about being armed and amenable to vigilancy, never wavering in his goal of reparations.

Funny, I never got the impression that Richard was a member of a different generation than you two. His thinking is not archaic, to me.

All of which contributes to the elusiveness of black unity.

In watching the recentPBS special on WEB DuBos, I can't help but wonder what tribe he would belong to, were he still with us.

I, personally, have given up categorizing folks. How one views the world depends on their core personality, imo.

🙄

Interesting point , if we are all honest, most black people have only ever complained about the usa or the english colonies preceding it, cause most black people were unhappy in the usa or the english colonies that preceded at as an environment.

But well said, most white people say they love the usa , not just that it is their home, and that love is based on opportunities and betterment not just for themselves but their community, which was born by any means necessary. The black people who call the usa home have never been able to call the sua a land of opportunity or betterment for the black masses, maybe for themsleves, but never for a majority of black people like whites, this the complaint heritage you speak of and allude to through troy and others prose.

Well said.

and yes, black unity in the usa has always been elusive and i think complicated because black people don't have a unfiied relationship to the usa. all whites, can say their forebears came here willingly, for better or worse. but all blacks can't say that and time can't change that.

What a question on WEB DUbois. I don't know. It is a great thought experiment.

The problem is DUbois died unlike his heyday. He was arguably a garveyite in his final years who was used as a tool by whites to get garvey out the usa when younger so... Dubois is tough.

I think to the point you mentioned, Dubois would dislike the modern complaint culture in the black populace in usa , simply because black people have been doing it for 250 years, alongside, trying everything from elected officials to starting businessess and never able to really get the majority of black people in a positive place.

Good enigmatic quesiton. I don't know what tribe dubois would be in modernity.

It is funny, the creation of the constitution holds the problem to categorization in the usa.

The constitution seems to only suggest the human race, but the reality of the usa by the very person who wrote it is against that notion. And even though I know people of all racial types [phenotype/age/religion/or others ]who are done with categorizing , like yourself, i also know people who are proud categorizers of all said racial types as well...

Maybe the answer is for a country to start one day that doesn't merely have the words of the constitution but is peopled by people who actually believe in unbiased humanity, a kind of universal individualism.

I saw a thing called asian 30 or something like that, and an actor, indian /of india descent. he said, i quote, he knows there are many in the usa who will never consider him american. Andh here is someone whose parents willingly came to the usa, has earned millions in hollywood, and admits that no matter what he does, there are those who will never consider the usa his home. I think it sums up the challenges of the future at least.

In my head maybe the states identity has to return,... before the war between the states people in the usa considered themselves of the states they lived in , not american. So, maybe that will return.

@ProfD

6 hours ago, ProfD said:

would prefer to live in Haiti if unknown circumstances didn't prevent him from relocating there.😎

I fortunately plus unfortunately have traveled quite a bit and i know modern haiti isn't for me, I know too many haitians, even if modern haiti were to turn around financially,, turn around greatly, it isn't for me. But I would be very happy for the legacy of the Haiti of yore.

14 hours ago, aka Contrarian said:

His thinking is not archaic, to me.

lol! How old are you again?

5 hours ago, richardmurray said:

i am stateless

So you have no home? You have no place that you that you care about or want to take care of and try to improve? Where is your family? Is there no place that you share with them that you might call “home?” If that is true, in all seriousness, that is rather sad.

I’ve been all over the world and to all 50 states and a couple of territories USVI, PR and as quiet as it is keep America is an amazingly diverse and beautiful country.

The cultures, cuisine, and people in many of its cities really has no peer.

The world comes here for education (through Trump is trying to destroy that) for a reason.

But obviously, there are some things that need to be improved, particularly as it relates to Black people, but for those of us who care, we do what we can to make it a better place.

That means we complain and take action when there are problems — as opposed to calling ourselves “stateless” whatever that’s supposed to mean.

Black folks are masochistic; like an abused wife who stays with her mate because - it hurts so good.

Black Americans aren't masochistic.
Most don't like the current situation but don't know of any BETTER options.

What is an abused wife to do?
Leave her abusive husband and go live out in the woods where the wolves and bears will be much nicer to her?

An abused wife who is a masochist stays because her mental state of mind equates pain with pleasure.

If she is not masochistic she will leave and seek help from the many shelters and havens that society provides for such cases.

@Troy

12 hours ago, Troy said:

So you have no home?

I am not going to answer your question outside of the following.

I am stateless and think what you will

@aka Contrarian

9 hours ago, aka Contrarian said:

Black folks are masochistic; like an abused wife who stays with her mate because - it hurts so good.

like the romani in europe, the okinawans in japan,the nuba in egypt/kemet, many peoples spend so long abused by a larger populace, more potent group that their being dominated becomes a heritage. What Pioneer said led me to realize the key to when this happened, was 1865.

From 1492 to 1865 no black person could say the usa was better than canada or mexico , either they were equal to the usa, Or after england banned enslavement or mexico banned enslavement ala jonas caballo, both canada or mexico made slavery illegal while slavery was still legal in the usa. Then from 1865 to 1980 the black wife was still shackled by the white mate, but he spent time explaining why she was enslaved/ alal the prison system + sharecropping+ absent government funding for anything. But in the 1865 time, before and after was key.

As henry louis gates jr admited, the black church pondered whether to use violence or nonviolence. I am still trying to find out this meeting and vote, but from what he says, by one vote, nonviolence won and , i argue the rest is history. Pioneer says what country is better, but while modernity, 2026 can argue the usa is better, in the 1800s, the usa wasn't better for black people than any other country. So black leaders embracing the usa as a home was not based on laws or finance, but hope or faith. And sadly, black people, the black wife, paid for that gamble with modernity, consequences.

@Pioneer1

6 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

Black Americans aren't masochistic.
Most don't like the current situation but don't know of any BETTER options.

What is an abused wife to do?
Leave her abusive husband and go live out in the woods where the wolves and bears will be much nicer to her?

thankyou for your prose, You expose a key point in black history in the usa, and how black people are to blame for the current condition en large in the usa.

I think aka is correct. as Nina Simone said, black people are willing to march but not willing to die, she blamed malcolm/martin and others death on black people in the usa, saying they are willing to march but not die but you expose the source of that choice and it isn't whites but black people in the past.

3 hours ago, richardmurray said:

but while modernity, 2026 can argue the usa is better, in the 1800s, the usa wasn't better for black people than any other country.

How would enslaved Black folks born in the USA during the 1800s have known any different or better?

During the 1800s, I doubt that enslaved Black folks were receiving postcards & letters from free Black folks letting them know life was better in other countries. 😁

As I mentioned in another thread, despite its warts, the USA must not be that bad considering it seems to an immigration destination for people from all over the planet.😎

@ProfD

1 hour ago, ProfD said:

How would enslaved Black folks born in the USA during the 1800s have known any different or better?

Since you don't know all I can say is, keep that truth and the rest of your views. All I will say is I know and I differ.