Over the next few days I will pr sent arguments by others that support my statement.

@Delano...looking forward to your thoughts on AI & consciousness.

AI has been the subject of a few threads. Would be nice to read another perepective on it.

AI has become mainstream news. Folks really perked up when it was reported AI could wipe out humans in a decade or less. That got some attention.

Of course, the tech bros have been nonchalant about it. Their objective is to make a sh8t ton of money. D8mn the torpedoes.😁

I find it slightly amusing that some people are laser focused on making money even if it kills them & their loved ones.

"What profit a man to gain the world & lose his soul"...doesn't apply to people who are enriching themselves regardless of collateral damage i.e. who lives or dies.😎

We tend to anthropomorphize AI, as if “consciousness,” whatever that is, is the end all and be all.

I think if AI achieves a state that is equivalent to or superior to what we define as consciousness is a moot point if it takes over the planet, and kills us all and its own self interest.

Consciousness is overrated anyway. It’s a story we tell ourselves to make us think we have free will. ;-)

4 hours ago, ProfD said:

I find it slightly amusing that some people are laser focused on making money even if it kills them & their loved ones.

"What profit a man to gain the world & lose his soul"

Thats been the case for a long time. Especially in regards to pushers.

Perhaps they don't have enough soul to lose.

6 hours ago, Delano said:

Thats been the case for a long time. Especially in regards to pushers.

Perhaps they don't have enough soul to lose.

Right.

There has always been a whole lotta people in the world who do not believe in such things i.e. religion & spirituality.

For those people, their existence is about having paradise on earth.

The same people have zero concern about what happens on this planet when they're dead & gone.😎

Sounds like Delano and I are CLOSE to agreeing on something.
Now I'm going to have to RE-THINK my position.....lol.

Interested in hearing his argument as to why AI will never become conscious, though.

17 hours ago, Delano said:

Over the next few days I will pr sent arguments by others that support my statement.

It would help if you define Consciousness in your Presentations

What Consciousness Is .........and what it is Not

This is the Merriam Webster definition

the state of being characterized by sensation, emotion, volition, and thought : mind

9 hours ago, Delano said:

This is the Merriam Webster definition

the state of being characterized by sensation, emotion, volition, and thought : mind

Volition

I like that.

The ability to think for one's self and make one's own decisions without them being dictated to by a higher authority.

21 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

Now I'm going to have to RE-THINK my position.....lol.

Wait, what?! who is this and what did you do with Pioneer1?

50 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:

The ability to think for one's self and make one's own decisions without them being dictated to by a higher authority.

Well, based upon that definition. AI has demonstrated consciousness. I've seen signs of this in how it responds to me prompt today compared to a year ago.

As I mentioned in the other thread, robots have been around longer than AI.

To date, robots do not have feelings nor consciousness.

IMO, AI will always be another technological tool even if some humans try to be friends with it.😁😎

14 hours ago, Delano said:

This is the Merriam Webster definition

the state of being characterized by sensation, emotion, volition, and thought : mind

Some AI has three of those qualities....

The fourth is in question only because it is Internal and Subjective....if by Emotion you mean Feelings as in Touch then that is covered by Sensation

On 10/8/2026 at 9:24 AM, Pioneer1 said:

Now I'm going to have to RE-THINK my position.....lol.

You aren't there only one.

https://youtube.com/shorts/kwLyagAj9Mc?si=xS50Hb8ppdLLm8DP

I was never a fan videos that cherry pick a statement out of content and serve it up with a provocative title like AI "needs consciousness" He did not say that. I found the full video and will watch it later this evening. The video was uploaded 11 months ago. I don't know when it was created but I suspect it has been at least a year-- which is a 100K years in human time.

Here's the full clip

Troy

Wait, what?! who is this and what did you do with Pioneer1?

Lol, I was just joking....I'm still of the belief that AI isn't conscious and will not likely ever BE conscious.

Now I don't go as far as Del did and say "never".

Never is a long time....lol.

But it's highly unlikely that something that is ARTIFICIAL (man made) will be conscious because in my opinion consciousness is something that has to be CREATED and human beings (as far as I know) can't create.

@frankster sensation refers to the five senses..

@Troy a computer is programmed. So I would hardly say it has volition. Computation does not equate understanding much less thinking.

AI can't become conscious because we don't understand consciousness. We can describe neurologically what happens in the brain but that is not the totality of mind. We can not map the unconscious which is where most of thinking occurs. AI is good at manipulating symbols but that is not the same as understanding.

HI @Delano I watched the video last night. Penrose is 95-years-old! He seems to be doing great.

The problem with is opinion on the subject--despite his brilliance--is that he is admittedly out of touch with the current state of AI. He was using Eliza (neither he nor the interviewer could remember the name of that early chatbot) as a basis for his opinion.

He seminal book, The Emperor's New Mind was published almost 40 years ago.

AI is based in silicon. Our minds are based in carbon. Do you rank one over the other?

Do you believe AI currently has the ability to think? If yes what is your reasoning and give an example. If not why do you think it can gain these missing elements.

15 hours ago, Delano said:

@frankster sensation refers to the five senses..

Lets start simply

You know about Self driving cars....Sight

Tactile Sensor.....Touch

Smoke detectors....smell

Microphone or listen devices....hearing

you follow the same part and you are at taste.....e-tongues

Sensation is just Detection

Sensation in a physical sense is mostly a mechanical event involving gas light chemical pressure temperature texture force vibration give and stretch all of which can be measure and computed...

Would you say camera can sense?

10 hours ago, frankster said:

Sensation is just Detection

Sensation in a physical sense is mostly a mechanical event...

Senses in humans is more than detection. Our senses determine how we react & respond to the world around us & how we feel & influences our emotions, decisions, creativity, movements, etc.

Humans use senses in a variety of ways that machines cannot.😎

1 hour ago, ProfD said:

Senses in humans is more than detection. Our senses determine how we react & respond to the world around us & how we feel & influences our emotions, decisions, creativity, movements, etc.

AI Machine use Detection to React and Respond to the world around them

1 hour ago, ProfD said:

Humans use senses in a variety of ways that machines cannot.😎

List one of the ways that Humans use senses that AI machines cannot use detection?

Machines use detection in a variety of ways that humans cannot use their senses

On 10/9/2026 at 8:35 AM, Delano said:

You aren't there only one.

https://youtube.com/shorts/kwLyagAj9Mc?si=xS50Hb8ppdLLm8DP

The Big difference between Intelligence and Cleverness is Time and Depth of Understanding....

Cleverness Uses basic Understanding and Apply that basic understanding in A New Way......Thru Trail and Error

Intelligence Then tells you why it worked.

He tries to denigrate Mathematical Logics and Computation as not the same or equivalent to Intelligence

You can not have Intelligence Without Mathematics Logics and Computation......

Galileo and Pythagoras are both agreed on the Importance of Maths and Numbers in the Understanding of our Universe

Do you need to understand mechanics to drive a car...No you do not

Do you need to understand Automotive Theory to Fix and Maintain a car...No you do not

Do you need to understand Automotive Theory to Assembly a car.....No you do not

Do you need to understand Automotive Theory to Make a Car Engine....No you do not

7 hours ago, frankster said:

Mathematical Logics and Computatio Mathematical Logic and Computational

How are Mathematical Logic and Computation different.

Also what does theoretical knowledge allow you to do that practical knowledge does not.

3 hours ago, Delano said:

11 hours ago, frankster said:

Mathematical Logics and Computatio Mathematical Logic and Computational

That Quote of mine is reading like it has been thru some form of editorial mishap....Please show exactly where I type those words as a response ?

Is the following the correct quote ?
'He tries to denigrate Mathematical Logics and Computation as not the same or equivalent to Intelligence

You can not have Intelligence Without Mathematics Logics and Computation......'

3 hours ago, Delano said:

How are Mathematical Logic and Computation different.

Mathematics is about proving and Computation is about mechanizing....these are basic definition

3 hours ago, Delano said:

Also what does theoretical knowledge allow you to do that practical knowledge does not.

Theoretical Knowledge allows you to understand Why a thing works or happens.

Practical Knowledge Lets you know How to do or build a thing

Being able to compute an answer is not the same as understanding the process. Computation is mechanical.

I would say practical knowledge can create an engine. However you need theoretical knowledge to create a new type of engine.

I was trying to copy your quote and type beneath it.

@Troy I agree with your criticisms of Penrose's argument. Except that computation does not equate to thinking. You can show someone how and when to utilise a Mathematical formulae. However that isn't the same as understanding the formulae.

10 hours ago, Delano said:

Being able to compute an answer is not the same as understanding the process. Computation is mechanical.

True...

If we how the Know-How to get the right answer....how important does the understanding of the process then is?

10 hours ago, Delano said:

I would say practical knowledge can create an engine.

True

10 hours ago, Delano said:

However you need theoretical knowledge to create a new type of engine.

True....

Theoretical Knowledge will help in the Improvement of the engine that is now understood....Making it run/go farther faster and more efficiently.

10 hours ago, Delano said:

I was trying to copy your quote and type beneath it.

cool

10 hours ago, Delano said:

@Troy I agree with your criticisms of Penrose's argument. Except that computation does not equate to thinking. You can show someone how and when to utilise a Mathematical formulae. However that isn't the same as understanding the formulae.

I know this is not directed at me but I do feel like taking the liberty in @Troy's delay and jumping in

Understanding is a Subjective/Internal State....No One outside of that Subjective State can know with any certainty what is happening inside that state.

As Humans the way we ascertain if someone understand something is by asking question and presenting problems....

A Correct Rote or practiced response are accepted in the case of our fellow human as proof of Understanding...In the Case of AI I feel this will not suffice

Can You imagine an AI taking an IQ exam???

They never get the Highest score but they tend to score above 120....Genius Level

I am astounded as to why AI does not get the highest possible score all the time on an IQ Test???

IQ exams are what we use to measure Human Intelligence Reasoning Understanding Logics and Cognitive Capabilities.....they score higher than 90% of the average human.

Now On an Emotional Intelligence (EI)Test....I can Appreciate the score AI gets - but I remain astounded.