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Troy

The Problem of Identifying Ourselves Based Upon Whites' Concept of Race

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Well since whites benefit from both the one race theory and the artificial construct, sounds like a no-win Catch-22 situation to me.  Since this is all about theory as opposed to practice, I think there are other more pressing issues for blacks to worry about.   

 

And you knew i'd say that , didn't you?  LOL 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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This article is fairly recent, 2005, but it talks about the specific gene discovered for melanin. It was known long before this that there was a melanin gene. Common sense dictates this given what we've learned about DNA. There is a gene for everything in the human body, whether we've discovered it yet or not. 

 

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/researchers-identify-huma

 

I learned about threonine and alanine long before reading this article. I have been doing heavy research on melanin for about 10 years now. I have copious notes. I discovered the threonine and alanine connection to melanin about 8 years ago. At that time, I hadn't heard talk about a discovered gene in the mainstream. All my discoveries where made through other mediums and through connecting the dots on my own. 

 

When I finally began to hear the mainstream discuss it, it was hushed up pretty quickly, then resurged for the benefit of profit via companies such as Ancestry.com. So now the discovery was being used to take people's hard earned money without discussing the many factors not being discussed around finding one's ancestry. 

 

Anyhoo, I continue to research melanin. And I see the game they are playing with race/phenotype/melanin.

 

5 minutes ago, Cynique said:

Well since whites benefit from both the one race theory and the artificial construct, sounds like a no-win Catch-22 situation to me.  Since this is all about theory as opposed to practice, I think there are other more pressing issues for blacks to worry about.   

 

And you knew i'd say that , didn't you?  LOL 

 

It is all pressing. But this discussion of race is just a discussion and certainly not at the top of the list of things that are pressing. We prioritize the best way we know how. This is a forum after all, not a place for sword and canon. So all we can actively do here is share our words. But we knew that already, right? LOL.

 

This space is meant for talk. So then, let's talk. And when we get weary of the talk, we get out of here and go DO something offline. But we can't do the physical required for change here. This space is what it is.

 

As for theory, the issue with all this, no matter what we call theory, whites are putting into practice. So theories become tangible things we must fight to destroy. We cannot ignore the theories imposed on us. They are the things that have led us to this place.

 

 

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@zajiMy only objection is your use of the pronoun "we".  i've dropped out of the struggle except to take on the role of devil's advocate in order to nudge dreamers into reality and i have no intentions of becoming an activist; too old and tired.  I think what's  becoming apparent when it comes to me and the rest of you, is that there's a serious generation gap.  Because so much of what is new to y'all, is old to me.  "Post racial" America serves as the backdrop for this scenario.  All of the aspirations and awareness voiced back in the '50s and '60s,  are the same ol re-heated ones that Gen-Xers and Millennials are now blowin' smoke about because the progress of the civil rights era has regressed and blacks find themselves back at square one. This sounds like what could be a teachable moment. But all i can do is give you all an "E" for effort and hope that the ballot box continues to be a weapon.  

 

What looms in my mind is that whites consider themselves superior for a reason.  Whatever else figures in the picture, they are superior at seizing and maintaining control of the country they stole from Native Americans,-  a land where blacks are tenants rather than owners.   So Blacks, Afro-Americans, African Americans, People of Color or whatever the flavor of the day is,  are left standing around, marching in place, articulating solutions and issuing warnings, pursuing the elusive goal of unity, a goal that never takes root because slave descendants are a hybrid crop prone to doing their own thing.  

   

A while back i mused about the aftermath of the inevitable fall of The American  Empire.  After this nation implodes, what could rise from the ashes would be the opportunity for like-minded survivors to converge into groups which could found their own little  countries on the singed territory once known as the United States.  One of these sects could be black people. This could be when, amidst a stirring chorus of "Kumbyaaaa",  they can shut up talking about what black folks need to do, and get on with it.   A scenario that sure ain't gonna happen in today's "amerika", the home of treacherous, powerful white people and verbose, impotent black ones.

 

Time to remind that the screen name "Cynique" is derived from the word "cynical".       

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41 minutes ago, Cynique said:

 My only objection is your use of the pronoun "we".  i've dropped out of the struggle except to take on the role of devil's advocate in order to nudge dreamers into reality and i have no intentions of becoming an activist; too old and tired. 

I've never been an activist. I see the reality and have never seen where many activist movements have done much other than pacify us into inertness. Folks march, they hand us a pacifier to shut us up, we shut up because the pacifier satisfies us in the moment (cause it's better than what we had before), then they continue to do more dirt often in subterfuge, sometimes openly.  I stopped dreaming decades ago.

Also, I use we only as a general statement, not to imply that you should join in on anything. 

 

Quote

 

I think what's  becoming apparent when it come to me and the rest of you, is that there's a serious generation gap.  Because so much of what is new to y'all, is old to me.  "Post racial" America serves as the backdrop for this scenario.  All of the aspirations and awareness voiced back in the '50s and '60s,  are the same ol re-heated ones that Gen-Xers and Millennials are now blowin' smoke about because the progress of the civil rights era has regressed and blacks find themselves back at square one.

 

Agreed. Which is why I laugh at all the talk talk talk we carry on with. It's become humorous to me, but in a not so funny way.  I may not be your age, but I know a whole lot of history and I'm personally tired of all the jaw jacking going on and the rehashing of crap. It's exhausting. I read the history elders such as yourself have made and watch as folks now add nothing new to the conversation. I am forever telling folks that they are repeating everything, guided by the hands of those in power who benefit from us being repetitious. This is why i believe we need to educate ourselves and stop going to their schools. They keep us in this endless loop.  It keeps us from moving forward and growing out of the position we are in.

 

This sounds like what could be a teachable moment. But all i can do is give you all an "E" for effort and hope that the ballot box continues to be a weapon.  

Try not to condescend. It doesn't serve anyone. There are mistakes on all fronts, even during your generation. Let's try to work together and not play into the wedge this Caucasian culture attempts to put between elders and the current generation. It is a game we shouldn't play. They've put it in their movies and sitcoms and music, disrespect elders, put them away in nursing homes, talk to them like they are stupid. I don't go for this game that so many now buy into. Were it not for your generation, this young and sometimes rude generation would not have cell phones and computers and Facebook and forums and all the things that this generation now uses to interact as though they invented all this stuff. YOUR generation made this communication between you and I happen. I am aware of that. But if you condescend without knowing who is awake and aware of what is going on, you could lose a golden opportunity to TRULY "teach".  At the end of the day, you can care or not about what I'm saying because as an elder, you don't have to, but I'm just letting you know I HEAR you and dismiss nothing you say. I am merely sharing my thoughts as well. So don't assume those in my age group, 50 years old, are stupid and can't learn anything. I have learned much and condescending blocks communication. So let's communicate and see what we can ALL learn from our conversations together, because NO ONE is too old to learn. Whether they wish to or not is their downfall, but no one is too old.

As for the ballot box, I don't believe it will change anything because I  believe, based on court hearings I've watched interrogating programmers who were asked if they could program ballot boxes to change votes (the answer was, yes), that they are all controlled and people on the Federal level are most likely selected rather than elected. I believe local elections can affect change is small ways, but not at the White House level. We are like yo-yos on a string when it comes to government politics. Further, why do we continue to trust a group of people who have been lying to us for centuries? It's just strange to me that we would. 

 

Quote

A while back i mused about the aftermath of the inevitable fall of The American  Empire.  After this nation implodes, what could rise from the ashes would be the opportunity for like-minded survivors to converge into groups which could found their own little  countries on the singed territory once known as the United States.  One of these sects could be black people. This could be when, amidst a stirring chorus of "Kumbyaaaa",  they can shut up talking about what black folks need to do, and get on with it.   

 

On that, we DEFINITELY agree. Hence why I say so little. I've been a part of this forum for probably over a year and have said barely two words until now. Why? Because I'm tired of the blasted Kumbyaa and chatter that leads nowhere because all people want to do is argue and talk down to each other, debating who is right or wrong, as the world turns and nothing changes, but, often times, gets worse. I thought this could be a place where conversation could lead to action without everyone thinking they are better and smarter than everyone else, and speaking in tones that resemble superiority. I'm still hopeful. Whether I hang around will be determined by the tone going forward. It's been interesting so far...as long as we all remember that we are not perfect, and from a cosmic standpoint, we could ALL be wrong about everything we think and believe. When we are humble enough to consider that we COULD be wrong about any given idea, THEN we can affect real change. Because we are not abrasive and condescending and assuming and superior in how we do this thing called communication and are open to ideas that make us uncomfortable.

 

Time to remind that the screen name "Cynique" is derived from the word "cynical".       

 

Stay cynical elder Cynique. We need that in order to keep us honest and balanced in how we view our plight. I appreciate very much your devil's advocate approach. VERY much. We do not often grow when everything is sweet and nice. We grow by being honed by those who challenge us and our ideas.  Thank you for sharing your thoughts. You are a powerful thinker. I'll be back to read your words!  

 

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Race is subjective; a recently created construct  that has been abandoned by the scientific community, but firmly held onto by lay people.

 

The amount of melanin one has is, of course, based upon their genetics and one's genotype is objective -- about as subjective as you can get.

 

However, @zaji, @Pioneer1, why is there no genetic test for race?

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2 hours ago, Troy said:

Race is subjective; a recently created construct  that has been abandoned by the scientific community, but firmly held onto by lay people.

 

The amount of melanin one has is, of course, based upon their genetics and one's genotype is objective -- about as subjective as you can get.

 

However, @zaji, @Pioneer1, why is there no genetic test for race?

 

@Troy  They have isolated the gene for skin color. And there are genes for every feature that humans have, their phenotypes, which is really all they are calling race. In other words, race is merely one's phenotype coupled with their skin color. They are being clever with the words they use to keep us arguing over this mess. Genetic research CAN tell a person's phenotype/race. Even without genetic tests, our bone structures are different, which is a major aspect of race/phenotype even before one gets to skin color. If genes don't determine how a Chinese looks or how an Aborigine looks, then what does? Chinese have slanted eyes, what is considered a phenotype (or race), because of their genetic make-up. How do you think Ancestry.com is surviving? They are sampling not just locations, but racial groups to perform their tests on others. They are tossing in a few games given that they do not have access to all phenotypes that have ever existed, therefore cannot produce honest scientific outcomes, but it is based on race at the end of the day.

 

Skin Color Gene: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/researchers-identify-huma

 

They are playing word games with people's heads Troy. They have known about this color gene long before 2005.

Check this out:  https://www.amren.com/news/2007/10/the_inconvenien 

 

And this (where the above came from): https://www.wired.com/2007/12/ps-dna/

Trust me Troy, they know already that DNA can show race, a clever term for phenotype. They don't want YOU to know because they are getting something out of this game they are playing. 

 

Here is an ABC report on Frudakis' technology that includes standard technology: http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=125079&page=1

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Are you saying that skin color determines one's race? You are darker than me, so are you a "purer" Black person?  My biological sister (we have the same parents), is much lighter than I.  Is she "less" Black?  What shade of skin color do you draw the line, and no longer consider someone part of the Black "race?"

 

It will take me a moment to review the links to see the evidence for a genetic test for race.

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1 hour ago, Troy said:

Are you saying that skin color determines one's race? You are darker than me, so are you a "purer" Black person?  My biological sister (we have the same parents), is much lighter than I.  Is she "less" Black?  What shade of skin color do you draw the line, and no longer consider someone part of the Black "race?"

 

It will take me a moment to review the links to see the evidence for a genetic test for race.

 

That is not what I"m saying. I am saying that skin color is one of several aspects of race, but not the sole determining factor. There is not a single thing that determines phenotype (race), but numerous things. Chinese have a particular phenotype (race) but they lack melanin. The Twa look like Chinese people with melanin. They are two variations of a similar phenotype, one brown, one not brown. Race is a group of things that make up a certain look, such as the distinct look of Aborigines, brown skin, specific phenotype.

 

When I see Aborigines who have been diluted by one generation, it is still evident that they have carried over the aborigine phenotype (race), even though they are now mixed. I wouldn't even need DNA to distinguish them from other human phenotypes. If I see aborigine folks who are brothers and sisters, it wouldn't matter if one is slightly lighter or darker than the other, their race/phenotype would be evident. Doesn't matter that you and your sisters have varying skin colors, your phenotype, negroid, is still evident. Science can determine phenotype of bones and DNA is what determines the phenotype to begin with, even if we never pinpointed the marker for it. But they have. 

 

Like I wrote before, all cats are cats, just like all humans are humans, and genetically we can be identified as being human. But there IS a genetic difference in how cats look AND behave in their social environment. It is because of genetics why lions and tigers and panthers live in their own groups, almost never encroaching on their cat buddies with a different phenotype. There is a gene for our varying phenotypes (race). Again, try not to use the word race. They are really talking about phenotype and using the word race in a charged way to replace the very real phenotypes of various humans and all species. 

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Zaji I understand what you are saying (I've have heard from Pioneer and others). 

 

There is no gene for race. Now if you do not believe this, all of the opinions you form will be flawed, and nothing I say will make sense to you.

 

Saying there are numerous physical characteristics is no better than saying rce is a function of skin color.  Humanity is so diverse you will always find people who are Black but would fail your more complex "brown bag" test.

 

Of course there are genes (and environmental causes), which explain the differences in the way people look.  But people are not cats, unless you want to talk about humanity in terms of different breeds. Lion are as different from tigers and cats as humans are from bonobos and chimps, because all "Black" people and "white" people are all Homo spaiens.

 

Now, if we want to continue to use the word race to describe phenotypic differences between people fine.  I do it in the course of informal conversation myself, but I also have no problem acknowledging someone who presents as "white" as a Black person, because because given the history of rape in this country "Black: people are all colors of the spectrum.

 

This is perhaps one reason why "Afro-American" is a better term than "Black" to describe the so called Black American, particular ones descendant from enslaved Africans. Leonce and Pioneer use this term as well; I think for similar reasons.

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1 hour ago, Troy said:

Of course there are genes (and environmental causes), which explain the differences in the way people look. 

 

I believe it is well-documented that environment is factor in genetic mutation... the whole "Out of Africa" project details the mutation of the mitochondrial DNA to track how humans changed as they moved further away from the equator.  Geneticist classify modern humans in haplogroups to mark our movements around the world - "race" is never mentioned in the study but rather they identify the change in genetic code. 

Also @zaji points out the initial testing, the Cambridge Reference Sequence came a European woman and worked it's way back to Africa. Not all mtDNA results are derived from that test.  There are a few, one in use is the Yoruba mtDNA.

 

For example, my results came from FamilytreeDNA and they use(d) revised (rCRS ) and  RSRS  (Reconstructed Sapiens Reference Sequence)  The RSRS results are  based on the mitochondrial Eve's ancient genome.  

As I've mentioned here before, according to my results my haplogroup L3 is from Ethiopia   My halplogroup maternal ancestor was the progenitor of the Eurasian (European and Asian) haplogroup L, M,  who left Africa.

Today, they look different from Ancient Africans but that's due to their migration patterns.  If they came from the first woman in my line, my maternal ancestor  but left Africa this should stand to reason environment caused a mutation in their genetic code.  This would be the same way environment caused my genetic code to become different from the original modern human woman, mitochondrial Eve. I'm still her descendant but  my maternal ancestor's migration pattern caused my genes to mutate and for me to look different. 


  Also there was a recent article on early human - the "cheddar" man  who died about 10,000 years ago.  

 

Quote

Scientists said yesterday they were surprised to discover that the earliest Briton would be considered ‘black’ if he lived today. The research suggests the first inhabitants of the British isles developed white skin later on than previously thought
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-5362187/Social-media-meltdown-Brit-Cheddar-Man.html#ixzz56iYgNFv4 


But getting back to the thesis of this post, discussing what  "race" is or isn't" is actually trying to make sense of mentally-ill babblings.  We know there's no biological foundation for race.   In the same respect, there's no scientific basis for culture either.    Still I subscribe to what serves me - and that's doesn't mean I'm brainwashed - but rather I think  certain mental illnesses can be contagious.  Or borrowing Nietzsche phrase from  Beyond Good and Evil - 

  • He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss also gazes into you.
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Troy

Not only are the racial differences manifested PHENOTYPICALLY but also PSYCHOLOGICALLY.

Different races tend to "think" or see the world differently on a bio-chemical level......which is why Black Americans and White Americans can live in the same country yet see things so much differently and practice different cultures.

Like Zaji said, the racists are playing one big GAME with you.
There is no scientific "consensus".....
These scientists will play up racial differences when it suits their purposes and then the erase the differences and pretend they don't exist when THAT suits their purposes.

If science doesn't see race why do we read about the differnces between Black and White IQ scores?
Why do we hear so much about Black women getting breast cancer as compared to White women?

 

 


Race and racial differences are acknowledged in every field of science from medicine, to social issues, to politics, to anthropology.

You said there is no gene for race but white anthropologists and paleontologists can determine if a bone they found belongs to an African or a Caucasian simply by the structure and mineral content.


You can deny racial difference all you want or call it by another name.
Call it color, class, breed, caste, ect.....
But whatever you call it....the people who are now classified as White will still know who THEY are and know who YOU are and will see themselves as different and better than you.

 

 

 

 

 


Zaji

Dang girl, you are absolutely right about so much, where do I start..........lol.

First you are right about their being so many phenotypical difference between just Africans ALONE, even when you leave out other races. I've heard many times that Africa both linguistically and cultural is the most diverse continent on the planet.
Perhaps there are TOO MANY differences and this is what made her so easy to conquer from the outside.

Second, you're right about not trusting Ancestry-.-com.
You never know WHO is handling the dna samples you're sending in or what they may really be used for.
Dr Umar Johnson said that you send a sample of your hair or saliva to these people and next thing you know the police may be at your door claiming your DNA was found at a murder scene way on the other side of the country.

The old folks who knew magic and how to work with roots KNEW the power you could have over a person if you got some of their hair or nail clippings.....don't think the scientists of today have slept on this either.





They change based on something they want. And now, since their numbers might now be lower than the 10% they seem to be on the planet compared to melanin rich peoples, they must boost their numbers by pushing interracial relationships. Easiest way to do this??? Tell everyone that the scientific/biological races (and yes, it has been based on science for over 100 years) are no longer true. How convenient that this new "science" has surfaced. Just in time to save their race. I have an entire book dedicated to the various races. Written around the early 1900s, maybe late 1800s. Over 200 pages of the various races and a breakdown of various aspects of said races.


They're also "training" the Asians with their massive numbers to be the new standard bearers who will continue carrying the torch of white supremacy so that it doesn't burn out.

If you notice, most north east Asians practice Western civilization and morality better and more precise than even White people do....lol.




I clearly see where caucasians are making stuff up and where they have truly discovered something (or most likely unlocked a cabinet in the Vatican so they can pretend they made a new discovery after reading our ancient knowledge).


Yes, proper DISCERNMENT is key to getting the truth without falling victim to the lies.
You have to know how to read between the lines and decode the "coded" language.


Neely Fuller Jr said that racists will give you a meal that may be 90% poison and 10% nutrition, and you have to know how to pull the nutrition out and accept it while rejecting the poison.

You dropped a lot of knowledge, I'm still reading.

To Be Continued......

 

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On 2/10/2018 at 6:17 AM, Troy said:

Zaji I understand what you are saying (I've have heard from Pioneer and others). 

 

There is no gene for race. Now if you do not believe this, all of the opinions you form will be flawed, and nothing I say will make sense to you.

 

Saying there are numerous physical characteristics is no better than saying rce is a function of skin color.  Humanity is so diverse you will always find people who are Black but would fail your more complex "brown bag" test.

 

Of course there are genes (and environmental causes), which explain the differences in the way people look.  But people are not cats, unless you want to talk about humanity in terms of different breeds. Lion are as different from tigers and cats as humans are from bonobos and chimps, because all "Black" people and "white" people are all Homo spaiens.

 

Now, if we want to continue to use the word race to describe phenotypic differences between people fine.  I do it in the course of informal conversation myself, but I also have no problem acknowledging someone who presents as "white" as a Black person, because because given the history of rape in this country "Black: people are all colors of the spectrum.

 

This is perhaps one reason why "Afro-American" is a better term than "Black" to describe the so called Black American, particular ones descendant from enslaved Africans. Leonce and Pioneer use this term as well; I think for similar reasons.

 

You've also got to understand the mind-bogglingly small variations that account for the various phenotypical differences. As stated in the book, "The Human Genome Project proved
that humans share 99.99% of their genes, regardless of
their so-called “race.” “And of that tiny 0.1% difference,
94 per cent of the variation is among individuals from the
same populations and only six percent between individuals
from different populations.” That means that only
6% of 0.1% represents variances between different populations
or so-called races."

 

Just because these differences are discernible does not  make them determinant.  That aside, define who, then, is black?  Is is 30% African blood?  Is it 51%.  Does the person with 49% African ancestry then qualify as white?  When we talk of race we're talking skin color. That's all we have to go by, and it is a piss poor indicator of genetic backgroud.  Take, for instance, Jordan Peele, the director of "Get Out" who is bi-racial, yet looks like many other black man.  Meghan Markle is biracial and looks white.  Go figure. 

 

Culture is the determinant factor here.  We have been so hung up on white folks' definition of and conceptions of race for so long that we have allowed ourselves to be blinded to our own historical and cultural treasure.  There is a difference between being sociologically 'white' and actively adopting a 'white' identity.  The former is neither here nor there. It's like someone saying they have two legs.  The latter is acceptance of a toxic identity steeped in oppression, dehumanization, and race hatred. 

 

Being "black" is just another biological incident. It's like having two legs. It simply IS.  Being born into or adopting Afro-American culture tells us the history with which you identify, and the culture borne of that history that influences how you live, think, etc.

 

It's culture, not color that defines us.

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I swear to God I was just about to write I can't have the conversation anymore, then I read @leonceg reaction.  Thanks for that.  But I'm afraid it will not make a difference (I have never observed @Pioneer1 change his mind on any subject, but perhaps it will give @zaji, who is a bit more thoughtful something to consider. 

 

I'm glad that you presented the information in the manner that you have -- thanks again.

 

 

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6 minutes ago, Troy said:

but perhaps it will give @zaji, who is a bit more thoughtful something to consider.

 

There's the thing. I have and continue to consider this, the view that there is no such thing as race. THAT is why I wrote my piece on Racism, to challenge this to a degree. Not the general discussion on race, but specific behaviors that use race as an excuse. But what baffles me is why those who oppose another view are unwilling to consider those other views (the view that race may exist). Even science is divided on the question, hence the article I sent you on that scientist who was able to determine the race of a murderer, thereby allowing law enforcement to catch the person because of this scientist's effective science on determining race.

 

So only one side must reconsider their points, not the other? LOL. I find it amusing because I actually do not dismiss the mainstream view completely, only to a degree and with amendments and other considerations. I merely have examined other things and see it differently now. BUT, I see it differently, from my viewpoint, WITHOUT rejecting wholesale the view I no longer hold. THAT is the key difference between me and those who see things differently. 

 

Essentially, there is a desire for me and others to consider the mainstream view (which I've actually considered AND believed for the last 20 plus years). But NO ONE else feels they should at least be open to the possibility that the view I now have (which is NOT set in stone and merely things I've come to understand) should be considered?

 

Feels a bit one sided when it comes to asking for others to consider a point of view. When I see folks asking me to consider their views but they defiantly and condescendingly refuse to consider mine, I'm done talking. What else is there to say? What I hear is this person saying to me is, I'm stupid, they are not, and I just need to listen to them because their views are infallible and their sources are infallible and science would NEVER lie to them (or be wrong) ergo, I should stop saying stupid things and concede that THEY are right and I am wrong.

 

@Troy, I DO consider that race is an illusion. Do you consider that it is at least possible that you have been misled and race is NOT an illusion? If you can consider that as possible, then I think we can truly discourse. Otherwise, it is merely you trying to get me to take your side. 

 

I don't take YOUR side. I don't take Pioneer's side, I don't take ANYONE'S side and NEVER have in my life. Me agreeing with @Pioneer1 does NOT mean I take his side. Something I have PERSONALLY discovered resonates, which is why I agree with some things he writes. I take the side of TRUTH and truth ONLY, and I attempt to always find that when and where I can. And me questioning this new science doesn't mean I'm an idiot. It means that science has fluctuated in two directions (sometimes dozens over centuries) and is now asking me to believe the idea or "research" that makes it comfortable today. Since science didn't get it right before, using their so called experiments to determine race, and now they want to use experiments again to determine there is no race, it is time for me to step in and use my own observations, considerations, intellect, experiences, common sense and, of course, research I can find that I only hope is reliable (my own scientific experiments if possible), to discover and come to a conclusion on what I think about this race vs. no race conversation.

 

I think it is disturbing to me to see people taking a hard stance on either side without considering the possibility that BOTH stances could actually be wrong, and there is a dynamic of our existence that we have yet to understand, but we are here busying ourselves with the wrong questions to start with. This is not to say we can't discuss it. But BOTH sides need to be open to possibilities. BOTH. We are fallible, remember that. 

 

If I must merely defer to another person's view, then there is nothing for me to say in the discussion. I will go silent and let others discuss what they wish.  I will go on my merry way and find truth while folks fight over whether they are right or wrong, or whether science is right or wrong. I don't want to be right. I want to know what is going on on this here globe to the best of my ability. Truth is my friend. If we try to seek that, we'd be better off.

 

AND, when we ask someone to "consider" another view, let's be sure we are giving them the same respect and considering their view. 

 

 

 

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Zaji

We need to go back to OUR science and stop following behind them. They are nothing more than intellectual thieves who have bastardized the discoveries and inventions of others.

I'm glad you said they stole it AND bastardized it.
It's one thing to steal someone's idea and claim it as your own....that's bad enough; but to steal it and change the original meaning of it!
Most authors, poets, and singers tell those who steal their work say,
"If you're gonna steal my work...you should atleast sing it right!"
"If you're gonna steal my quotes....atleast put the original meaning on it".


A lot of the times when Whites steal original Black knowledge they corrupt it to the point that it no longer has any real meaning and is utterly confusing and useless.
I suspect that where most of these crazy religions come from.....ancient Black knowledge that was corrupted and mythologized to the point of being irrecognizable.


The 42 Laws of Maat turns into the 10 Commandments.....for people who routinely break all 10 of them.

The fasting of the ancients meant to cleanse and rejuvenate the body turns into a religious ritual where people begrudglingly starve themselves or abstain from eating meat totally ignorant as to WHY they're doing it and assuming it has some "spiritual" meaning behind it.

 

 

 

 

Anyhoo, I continue to research melanin. And I see the game they are playing with race/phenotype/melanin.


We also know that there are different TYPES of Melanin.
The melanin in most Caucasians and many East Asians is different than the melanin in Blacks and true Native Americans.

We have "eumelanin" which is Black.....they have mostly "pheomelanin" which is red.

This is why sometimes when you're looking at a picture of White people you see a red dot in their eyes in the photo.

 

 

 

 



Cynique

 

 

Well , i always ask what do white people have to gain by abandoning the idea of different races? It is to their advantage to keep their artificial construct since, as everybody agrees, this allows them maintain white supremacy.


It helps them to acknowledge race as long as they are in the majority.....
But when they become a MINORITY in any nation/community then they try to erase the idea of race so as to CONFUSE the masses of the people.

One of the reasons why there wasn't a major Civil Rights movement in Latin America like it was in the United States is because most of the Black people in Latino nations think they're everything BUT Black.

White Latinos who control Latin America tell them they aren't Black but Cuban, Brazilian, Mexican, Columbian, ect.....
They tell them we're all the same race...."Latino race"....to fool them.
And because they don't see race or see themselves as Black they don't know how to explain why they are poor and being exploited by the White Brazilians, Mexicans, ect...

 

 

 


 

Leonce

 

 

That aside, define who, then, is black? Is is 30% African blood? Is it 51%. Does the person with 49% African ancestry then qualify as white?

 

To me, in order to actually still be considered African/Black you would have to be atleast 3/4 African/Black or if you have a non-Black parent but you LOOK like a complete African/Black person I'd still consider you African/Black.

I know that figure is kind of high, but I think it's reasonable because if you start accepting EVERYBODY with any African ancestry as Black you run the risk of watering down the entire race and replacing it with another.

However this is why I refer to ETHNICITY and call our people "AfroAmericans".
This terms encompasses EVERYONE of African ancestry in the Americas regardless of how much or how little African blood runs through their veins.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Troy

Man you are just mumbling and grumbling to yourself, but you aren't actually ANSWERING THE QUESTIONS me and others have posed to you.

And you seem to be overlooking the answers to the very questions YOU asked of us.

You keep talking about how stupid it is to continue to believe in different races and how science disproves it.....but without offering any real concrete evidence.

 

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5 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:

The 42 Laws of Maat turns into the 10 Commandments.....for people who routinely break all 10 of them.

 

@Pioneer1

 

It's worse than breaking them. They've changed how the laws read. 

 

In this culture, they like to boss people around, bully them, take take take and point fingers as they mutilate folks. Their 10 commandments bear out this behavior. THOU shalt not kill, THOU shalt not do this or that. YOU YOU YOU shouldn't.

 

Whereas in the 42 Laws, we take responsibility for our behavior. I shall not kill. I shall not to this, I shall not do that. Or more rightly, I have not stolen, I have not committed sin. We look at self first, not tell others what to do.

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Zaji
 

Originally we didn't need written laws.
Our very nature was that of righteousness.

You only have to tell someone NOT to sleep with animals if they were.
You only have to tell someone NOT to sacrifice their children to a big wooden statue if they actually doing these things.
You have to tell them what to eat and how to eat to keep them from getting sick.

Religion....especially scripted religion was made for Caucasians in order to GIVE them a framework to build their civilizations on.

The original belief system of people of color around the planet is what some would call ANCESTRAL WORSHIP or ANCESTRAL VENERATION where you are reunited with your ancestors and relatives when you die.

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Hummm @zaji, you probably missed the numerous times I wrote that I used to believe in the concept of race. Just because i asked you to consider an alternative point of voice does nt mean I have not done it myself.  I'm not sure why you would draw that conclusion, but to make it plain I have considered the your perspective, but have now abandoned it because the science tells us otherwise.

 

Zaji, scientists are not "divided" over this issue.  The science is quite clear.  I'm not sure what you read in that article that suggest that there is a test for "race," but I read them:

  • The skin color test article does not even use the word race.  Obviously, and as discussed, skin color is insufficient to determine one's so called race 
  • The guy using DNA to predict a suspect's race is doing what ancestry and 23 and Me do: tell you where your ancestors came from most recently.  But this speaks to geography does not tell you what one looks like. You know some people with African ancestry can actually pass for white?  Sure one can made a prediction, but none of the articles said there was a gene for race.  Why? Because there isn't one, other than the combinations of genes that make us part of the human race.

It is also interesting when I relate a scientific fact that someone disagrees with they often say that it is 'my" position.  Don't shoot the messenger, I'm just relating information.  Again, my position is not based upon my research and experimentation, I believe what you believed once, but I became aware of the science and I have updated my perspective (i.e. I learned). 

 

I'm not sure why you say science has "fluctuated."  The tools required to make a determination are relatively new.  Shoot, the human genome was sequenced after I started AALBC.com. 

 

Scientists has learned a lot, unfortunately this knowledge continues to be rejected by so many people.  But I get it; believing in multiple human races fits your world view and changing that is hard. 

 

Finally, you say you take the side of "truth."  I find that statement confusing, because you have demonstrated a willingness to reject the truth.

 

@Pioneer1, your reaction was predictable I guess you either did not read or comprehend what Leonce wrote.  I shared volumes of information with you about the subject.  Last year I shared a documentary. It is obvious you are not changing your view, I guess that would force to you dispense with all those racial stereotypes you've assembled over the years.

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2 hours ago, Troy said:

Hummm @zaji, you probably missed the numerous times I wrote that I used to believe in the concept of race. Just because i asked you to consider an alternative point of voice does nt mean I have not done it myself.  I'm not sure why you would draw that conclusion, but to make it plain I have considered the your perspective, but have now abandoned it because the science tells us otherwise.

 

Zaji, scientists are not "divided" over this issue.  The science is quite clear.  I'm not sure what you read in that article that suggest that there is a test for "race," but I read them:

  • The skin color test article does not even use the word race.  Obviously, and as discussed, skin color is insufficient to determine one's so called race 
  • The guy using DNA to predict a suspect's race is doing what ancestry and 23 and Me do: tell you where your ancestors came from most recently.  But this speaks to geography does not tell you what one looks like. You know some people with African ancestry can actually pass for white?  Sure one can made a prediction, but none of the articles said there was a gene for race.  Why? Because there isn't one, other than the combinations of genes that make us part of the human race.

It is also interesting when I relate a scientific fact that someone disagrees with they often say that it is 'my" position.  Don't shoot the messenger, I'm just relating information.  Again, my position is not based upon my research and experimentation, I believe what you believed once, but I became aware of the science and I have updated my perspective (i.e. I learned). 

 

I'm not sure why you say science has "fluctuated."  The tools required to make a determination are relatively new.  Shoot, the human genome was sequenced after I started AALBC.com. 

 

Scientists has learned a lot, unfortunately this knowledge continues to be rejected by so many people.  But I get it; believing in multiple human races fits your world view and changing that is hard. 

 

Finally, you say you take the side of "truth."  I find that statement confusing, because you have demonstrated a willingness to reject the truth.

 

@Pioneer1, your reaction was predictable I guess you either did not read or comprehend what Leonce wrote.  I shared volumes of information with you about the subject.  Last year I shared a documentary. It is obvious you are not changing your view, I guess that would force to you dispense with all those racial stereotypes you've assembled over the years.

 

@Troy

 

 

I came to that conclusion because you insinuated that I have not considered the belief you currently hold. I remain on both sides of the conversation, regardless of how it might look to you. At the moment, I'm merely sharing the side of the conversation from which I've received new information over the last decade.

 

I have read scientists who do not accept the mainstream version of the issue of race. See, you are dismissing what I have personally read by scientists who study this field. This is the issue Troy. Because you have not been exposed to scientists who based on their observations believe there is race, you dismiss me and others. You can't read everything that is out there. The mainstream rarely shows both sides of the discussion objectively. You say the science is clear, but again, I HAVE read scientists IN the field who do NOT come away with the same conclusions based on their observations. AND, in many cases, have made OTHER observations that are being ignored. Why are you asking me to accept ONLY what you have read, but you dismiss what I have read? I am not dismissing the scientists you have decided to agree with. I believe they see what they see. I merely am open to listening to professionals who see something else. 

 

Just because a test doesn't use the term race, doesn't mean one is not allowed to draw conclusions. Their decision to not use the word has nothing to do with conclusions we can draw from a test that clearly has the ability to discern one on a list of things that determines phenotype.

 

Always remember you are relating information told to you based on HOW another human being processes their observations. I try at all times to rethink how I process observations, rather than taking what someone else tells me an observation means. 

 

You also assume that because you changed your position, that automatically means I have not become aware of the science. You state that YOU became aware of the science, intimating that I have not.  Don't make that assumption merely because your position has changed and that now means you have reached a level higher than someone who believes (tentatively) your old beliefs. That is not necessarily the case. As new information comes our way, we can end up flip flopping on many ideas over the course of our lives. So be careful what you suggest here. Your new stance doesn't mean that you are right...or wrong. It is merely your new stance based on information YOU have seen, but you have not seen what I have seen. So it's always best to avoid assumptions.

 

I don't have a world view per se. I have a thought that I am expressing based on what I've discovered recently about the science. And that thought is not set in stone. So please don't set me in stone by assuming I have a solid world view on anything. I don't. 

 

Really? I am rejecting the "truth"? Or am I rejecting YOUR truth and fallible science to a degree and you don't like it? I an not rejecting anything in general Troy. I don't carry that much ego. And I'm not even rejecting how you now see this race issue. That is what is funny. LOL.  I'm introducing some things I've researched and pondered over the last 30 years. Again, nothing hard and fast, just things to consider based on the scientists I've read up on and the conclusions they've come to. How is considering another way of seeing a rejection of anything? 

 

Above all else, know that I have no solid view. I'm merely expressing conclusions I've come to based on OTHER scientists who you have NOT read up on.  DO NOT overlook that point. I don't reject or accept anything 100%. For me, this discussion is 50/50. It can go either way based on what we continue to learn and discover. And since I am not invested in the outcome of the race vs. no race discussion (to a degree), I cannot accept or reject anything. It would be foolish of me to do so. I want to know the truth, and I don't just take what people say just because of what they claim to observe. Let ME observe it and see if I come to the same conclusions. 

 

Please, going forward, don't accuse me of rejecting or accepting anything. Let ME tell you if I reject something or accept it. Just because I don't flock to your position and openly announce to the world a position you hold, doesn't mean I out of hat reject it. Let me speak for myself please. That is how you show proper respect for me as a human being. 

 

I ask that NO ONE on this board think for me and tell me what I feel or don't feel, think or don't think. Don't tell me what I reject or don't reject just because I don't fall in line with your view, or, if I FALL in line with your view. It doesn't matter if I agree or disagree with you, don't think for me and don't tell me what I'm thinking or feeling. It is the highest form of disrespect. ASK me how I feel and let me tell you. And don't assume that because I don't agree 100% with what you think, that somehow means I dismiss your views all together.  I don't. Same with agreement. Just because I agree with you, it doesn't mean I am always on board 100%. Please don't do it to me. It smells of talking heads on television who just want to be heard, loudly, be verbally abusive to each other, but resolve nothing when the conversation is done. 

 

 

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6 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

Well , i always ask what do white people have to gain by abandoning the idea of different races? It is to their advantage to keep their artificial construct since, as everybody agrees, this allows them maintain white supremacy. (Cynique quote)


It helps them to acknowledge race as long as they are in the majority.....
But when they become a MINORITY in any nation/community then they try to erase the idea of race so as to CONFUSE the masses of the people.

If white people are as clever and devious as you think they are, you need throw in the towel.  You might consider that since they have maintained  power and control for centuries,  all you're doing is blowing hot air in  a lost cause, the one thing you're good at. >>YAWN<<  Let's make a deal. Quit responding to my posts, and i'll do the same to yours.    

 

 

@zajiLOL WHEW! Doeth the lady protest too much? i can see how Troy might get the "wrong" impression since you seldom agree with him, and never challenge Pioneer because you 2 are on the same page and reinforce each other's views. ;) 

 

 

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Cynique
 

Let's make a deal. Quit responding to my posts, and i'll do the same to yours.


I don't make "deals with the devil".....lol.

So how about I just respond to whatever I like and you ignore it?


As for Zaji.......

Perhaps she's just part of my "composite" that Mel was speaking of, lol.

Be careful....
There might be an entire REGIMENT of "Pioneers" somewhere in a computer lab taking turns trying to teach YOUR ass some sense....lol.


:o If you can't handle Pioneer1........what are you going to do when Pioneer2, Pioneer3, and Pioneers 4-89 show up????

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2 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

Perhaps she's just part of my "composite" that Mel was speaking of, lol.

LOL!  @Pioneer1   Zaji 's words have a different vibration than your composites.  If she's is in your world - I would be really surprised.(and few things surprise me)

Zaji seems to vibrate as a scientist and seems to be fluid.  I do find it interesting that your ideas resonate with her...  I feel there's a connection to you but it's more like a test subject because your words and ideas are familiar to her at another level.  Maybe another dimension or plane?     In fact, I feel like she's studying all of us - I feel that's her nature.  But like I said, these are just feelings. 

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3 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

If you can't handle Pioneer1........what are you going to do when Pioneer2, Pioneer3, and Pioneers 4-89 show up????

 

LOL. You are hilarious. 

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45 minutes ago, Mel Hopkins said:

Zaji seems to vibrate as a scientist and seems to be fluid.  I do find it interesting that your ideas resonate with her...  I feel there's a connection to you but it's more like a test subject because your words and ideas are familiar to her at another level.  Maybe another dimension or plane?     In fact, I feel like she's studying all of us - I feel that's her nature.  But like I said, these are just feelings. 

 

@Mel Hopkins, you nailed it. LOL. I observe you, me, us, human nature and beliefs in general. I watch to see how we dissect our own ideas and how we dissect our observations. I reject no observation made by us humans. What I question only is how we interpret those observations, which can be varied. This is what we as a species can't seem to accept. I experience gravity, another person experiences gravity, but our conclusions can still be different based on how we see the world. One will say it cannot be defied because of the observable fact that they cannot jump off a cliff without damage to the human body or death, and another will say it can be defied and go forth to invent something such as...I don't know...an airplane. LOL. All because they did not fully go along with the observations made by every human on Earth. Observations are not conclusions. Those who never imagined it could be defied, invent/create nothing. Creation happens in a space of fluid being, not accepting or rejecting a thing, so creation and discovery can be possible. Taking a solid stance on any side of a subject blocks creativity, and, to a degree, the ability to be aware of possibilities. I stay fluid.

 

So yes, I operate, when I am aware and awake enough to do so, outside of this status quo of thinking and processing information. I try to live in that other dimension/plane. I'm an adventurer. I want to explore ideas without being told that I'm not allowed to do so. Those first people who discovered flight were rejected, laughed at, told they were being ridiculous. That their experiments were dangerous and would lead to nothing because humans cannot fly. Had they fallen in line with conventional "science" we wouldn't have planes today. Frankly, they didn't even need science to tell them anything. Our personal experiences SHOW us that we cannot fly. Yet, someone decided to go against even their own personal observations and create something that defied what they knew to be true. I'm that person inventing the plane in this discussion. LOL.

 

And no matter what anyone says, we gonna fly!! Cause I'm looking at ALL sides of the wind and my creation to figure this thing out.

 

Thanks for your words Mel! 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Troy said:

how many races do you believe exist and why?

 

@Troy

 

Let me first set the stage for my answer. I am NOT hung up on words/terms. So the term race means nothing to me in the context of my overall ideas. Race is just a word that a human created to describe something they are observing. The word (race) is a filler for their conclusions around an observation. I am focused on the observations and then, how I interpret what I observe, not how someone else interprets this very real observation of phenotype. So try to not to be attached to the word race too much, even as I use the word to forward the conversation at times. I live in the space of ideas and thoughts where there are no words interfering with my observations. For example, before there was a word for gravity, it existed and people knew it existed. They didn't need a word for it. We don't need a word for it now. We experience and know it is there, doing something for or to us. Having a word does not make a thing real or not real. So race is just a word. The conversation for me is whether or not there is something observable here. And there is. Some have decided to interpret this observation one way (with the word race) and others have decided to interpret it another way (with the word phenotype or ancestry). Again, don't jump on the words and the definitions humans have given to them. Focus ONLY on the observations made visually and biologically, then you will come to your OWN conclusions about what is being observed, rather than the conclusions being handed to you. 

 

To your question. I have absolutely no idea how many races exist, if there are even what we call races. Remember what I told you...I believe that "races" is just a cunning term for "phenotype". Essentially, it is a construct. BUT, being a construct does not mean that phenotype, where I think they derived the term/idea race from, doesn't exist. Phenotype is real and observable. I believe it is POSSIBLE, based on observation, that there are differences in our DNA that make us look the ways that we do. Looking at what makes us the same, doesn't mean there is nothing to see that makes us different. Someone with Down Syndrome doesn't cease to be different overall biologically from humans. Their 99% sameness to the human species is irrelevant. The DNA clearly shows an issue that they have pinpointed scientifically that makes someone who has Down Syndrome LOOK the way they look. So the sameness as a species, that can be discerned by DNA, does not negate the fact that there is a difference that can be pinpointed, by DNA, as has been done with Down Syndrome. 

 

I also try to remember that the inability to prove something ALSO does NOT make it untrue. Air existed before we could prove it. It wasn't until we created instruments and scientific methods that allowed us to understand air. The atom did not cease to exist simply because we didn't believe or know it exists. We merely didn't have the ability to observe it. Is it at all possible, in anyone's estimation, that we simply do not yet have the scientific ability to see/know/understand that there COULD be a gene(s) for phenotype(s)?? Isn't this possible? History shows this to be a fact, that there can be a thing we theorize that exists, even though we can't yet prove it.

 

The Dogon people knew about Sirius B, yet could not prove to the people they spoke to that it was there. How did the Dogon know, without proof to present to the world? We may never know.  

 

Again, I don't know anything for sure and like some, won't pretend to. I learn and reconsider my ideas daily. I block NOTHING just because it makes me uncomfortable. I do NOT 100% reject the notion that race doesn't exist. But I also do NOT 100% reject the notion that it does. What boggles my mind is that we so easily shift with the tide of science without questioning it as an overall institution. Did you know that the co-founder of the DNA Helix, James D. Watson, made a statement that blacks are less intelligent than whites? LOL. I've been sitting with his statement and what it all means. I'm still dissecting it and letting it unfold into what it implies scientifically. And why he, one of the fathers of Western DNA discovery, would say this.

 

I am not an all powerful being and cannot know all. And that goes for every single human being on planet Earth. It is dangerous for us to always fall in line with only how others interpret real scientific observations. We shouldn't dismiss every single thing that comes our way, but we shouldn't be afraid to question it either. That is how we invent, by questioning our observations...by questioning gravity so we can invent the plane. Questioning a thing doesn't mean one believes it doesn't (or does) exist. It simply means they are attempting to see it differently, so they can understand it and create from that new understanding. That is why we are able to fly today. No one denied that gravity exists, they simply did not accept it as the end of the conversation. 

 

I do not deny that race is an illusion, I simply do not accept this as the end of the conversation, hence why I entertain the other side. I'm here to invent flight baby!! LOL. 

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, zaji said:

I experience gravity, another person experiences gravity, but our conclusions can still be different based on how we see the world. One will say it cannot be defied because of the observable fact that they cannot jump off a cliff without damage to the human body or death, and another will say it can be defied and go forth to invent something such as...I don't know...an airplane. LOL. All because they did not fully go along with the observations made by every human on Earth. Observations are not conclusions. Those who never imagined it could be defied, invent/create nothing. Creation happens in a space of fluid being, not accepting or rejecting a thing, so creation and discovery can be possible. Taking a solid stance on any side of a subject blocks creativity, and, to a degree, the ability to be aware of possibilities. I stay fluid.

 

YES!!!  I subscribe to this theory too!   In fact, I've written someone very similar!  "Observations are not conclusions."  !!! funny-11.jpg
 

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32 minutes ago, Mel Hopkins said:

YES!!!  I subscribe to this theory too!   In fact, I've written someone very similar!  "Observations are not conclusions."  !!! 

 

See, you and I are gonna invent flying in a new way. LOL.

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LOL every time i get ready to post this, somebody beats me to the draw for the next opening spot, so what i say now may be off-point, but here's my response to earlier posts...  i don't think anybody doubted that there are people out there who agree with Pioneer's points view.  I often wondered why they didn't show up and side with him. Because zaji is invariably in lock step with him, i now have my suspicions, and while she is watching me, i am watching her.  :ph34r: It's too bad that Pioneer is oblivious to all of all of the admonitions and advice she offers, - her stream of conscious monologues that mesmerize us even as she has lapses where she doesn't practices what she preaches... But, hey, nobody's perfect! :D.   But she's a welcome addition to this forum; the new blood needed! i love her meta-physical vibe. And i love how Mel always provides a different angle to things.

 

But deliver us from a legion of Pioneer clones.  It will be like an onslaught from a movie studio, a group of who have stages inside the auditoriums of their skulls, a place where scripts are created and then  produced for public consumption, films that objective thinkers will give a thumbs down to.   Pioneer lives and dies by his paranoid anecdotal-drenched scenarios. He never thinks past his nose or looks at the big picture because this would require him to be a critical thinker.   He has this race issue  all plotted out, replete with heroes and villains, naturally casting himself as a hero, obsessed  with rescuing black people from the evil white cabal.  He apparently thinks that white forces are united and act in concert, all awaiting the next memo sent out by The Man to do this and do that, install one race in some countries and many races in others. "They" are the "them" against "us".  He's incapable of taking an over view and seeing that THE SYSTEM has been in place for centuries.  White people don't have to do anything but bask in the privilege that comes with the territory.  Changes come and go, sentiments shift and stabilize, rights are given and taken back,  and THE SYSTEM remains constant - and powerful, leaving black individuals with no choice but to do their best to navigate the obstacle course of white superiority.  This debate on race is all about rhetoric that doesn't translate into practice. Its a showcase for exposing Pioneer's lack of credentials, and a discussion that is tailor-made for those who  want to vent their frustrations and vie for the last word.  No minds are being changed.  Del is the only convert on board.  

 

Well, that's my scenario. Now amp up your rebuttals.   And let the Pioneer dog and pony show  continue to chase its tail.

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Everyone is right based on the question. Agreement or disagreement is irrelevant. Everyone can see different problems and not see others because of perspectives and experience. 

 

I prefer to be Johnny Ideaseed.

 

Talking about whether race is a relevant topic isnt all that important to me. "Indians are red Niggers" - Ghost Dog.

 

 

Does your concept of race matter to your oppression , your oppressor or even fellow poster more than their own? 

 

Is there a solution to the problem. Yes but because of heterogeneity the solution is probably more individualistic than socialistic. 

 

It is interesting that Zaji agreeing with Pioneer has  a different reaction than when I did the same. Fascinating.

 

Also you (plural) can say and believe whatever you want. It is eaier to side with Cynique Mel Pioneer or Troy  in the main since there's a ideological basis that is consistent. 

 

Zaji is writer and the group is interesting material.  Juat some observations or are some of them conclusions. I am not certain. 

 

Sincerely, 

Doubtful Delano aka not having very strong convictions or pronouncements. 

And like i have done earlier I will watch from the sidelines. 

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Zaji and Mel

You two are talking way over my head.....lol.

 

 

 

Sssneak


I often wondered why they didn't show up and side with him. Because zaji is invariably in lock step with him, i now have my suspicions, and while she is watching me, i am watching her :ph34r:


Lol.....sssneaky

As for that other crap you wrote up there,
You have an absolutely INSANE imagination.....lol.

 

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