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Freedom an ability? Are some people more capable of selecting their freedom than others? Or have a better capacity to appreciate it? Or possess more talent when it comes to making choices?   Slaves found ways to entertain themselves. Another paradox? 

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Freedom is not an ability. Some people can choose freely. Some people are more appreciative. But i have no knowledge about the the inherent potential of people. Some people are better decision makers. While some people are not ordering from the menu.

 

Knowing that you have a choice is enabling. Creating choices is inventive. 

All of the above are the opinions currently residing on my mind. 

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9 hours ago, Delano said:

Freedom is the ability to choose your entertainment. 

 

7 hours ago, Cynique said:

Freedom an ability? Are some people more capable of selecting their freedom than others? Or have a better capacity to appreciate it? Or possess more talent when it comes to making choices?

5 hours ago, Delano said:

Freedom is not an ability. Some people can choose freely. Some people are more appreciative. But i have no knowledge about the

the inherent potential of people. Some people are better decision makers. While some people are not ordering from the menu.

 

So you changed your mind.  I say that, among other things, freedom is an abstract concept and can be a state of mind and that it is beside the point when it comes to choosing your entertainment.    

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@Cynique

I'll respond in the reverse order of your statements. 

 

I didn't see my response as a change in position. For me it was a clarification. However  based on your response, it was temporarily ineffective. If i can effectively communicate the nuances and implications it wil be effective retroactively. Yet ipso facto it is less connotation and more denotation.

 Entertainment choices are the concrete display of existential preferences. Unless it's a forced choice in which case it demonstrates . effective manipulation. Or it shows what is so important to you, that it can be used to manipulate you.

Ability doesn't always mean talent it also opportunity. Since able is the root of ability. So the misunderstanding is that we had (have) a different understanding of the word and its meanings.

Origin

Late Middle English: from Old French ablete, from Latin habilitas, from habilis ‘able’.

 

ADJECTIVEablest,abler

  • 1with infinitive Having the power, skill, means, or opportunity to do something.

     

15 hours ago, Cynique said:

 

 

So you changed your mind.  I say that, among other things, freedom is an abstract concept and can be a state of mind and that it is beside the point when it comes to choosing your entertainment.    

No but perhaps you have changed your mind about what I was saying.

 

I  also made the conscious decision (as opposed to a choice), to use less accessible words and structures. Not in  attempt to obfuscate but rather illustrate. 

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8 hours ago, Delano said:

I also made the conscious decision (as opposed to a choice), to use less accessible words and structures. In another attempt to obfuscate but rather illustrate. 

 Different definitions of words always seem to interfere with resolving our disagreements.  Suddenly the word "ability'  became the focus instead of the word "freedom".   And why would you want to "obfuscate" rather than illustrate when trying to clarify something?? I  don't know that you manipulated me unless your aim was to make me think that the phrase "freedom is the ability to choose your entertainment" really means something, when it actually doesn't. :o

 

obfuscate: to render obscure, unclear, or unintelligible:

 

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If you have leisure time then you have free time. Hence you have freedom. 

 

 

I have since corrected the error re the last sentence. 

ability also means capable 

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14 hours ago, Cynique said:

 Different definitions of words always seem to interfere with resolving our disagreements.  Suddenly the word "ability'  became the focus instead of the word "freedom".   And why would you want to "obfuscate" rather than illustrate when trying to clarify something?? I  don't know that you manipulated me unless your aim was to make me think that the phrase "freedom is the ability to choose your entertainment" really means something, when it actually doesn't. :o

 

obfuscate: to render obscure, unclear, or unintelligible:

 

The focus is wherever you decide. Since I can't see how one is more important than the other. 

 

I generally use the Oxford  or Merriam definition and etymology. 

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That was a typo. I have since edited the post.

On 07/02/2018 at 10:18 AM, Delano said:

@Cynique

I'll respond in the reverse order of your statements. 

 

I didn't see my response as a change in position. For me it was a clarification. However  based on your response, it was temporarily ineffective. If i can effectively communicate the nuances and implications it wil be effective retroactively. Yet ipso facto it is less connotation and more denotation.

 Entertainment choices are the concrete display of existential preferences. Unless it's a forced choice in which case it demonstrates . effective manipulation. Or it shows what is so important to you, that it can be used to manipulate you.

Ability doesn't always mean talent it also opportunity. Since able is the root of ability. So the misunderstanding is that we had (have) a different understanding of the word and its meanings.

Origin

Late Middle English: from Old French ablete, from Latin habilitas, from habilis ‘able’.

 

ADJECTIVEablest,abler

  • 1with infinitive Having the power, skill, means, or opportunity to do something.

     

No but perhaps you have changed your mind about what I was saying.

 

I  also made the conscious decision (as opposed to a choice), to use less accessible words and structures. Not in  attempt to obfuscate but rather illustrate. 

@Cynique here's the correction. 

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On 2/6/2018 at 2:23 AM, Cynique said:

Freedom an ability? Are some people more capable of selecting their freedom than others? Or have a better capacity to appreciate it? Or possess more talent when it comes to making choices? 

i wasn't confused about the meaning of ability. That's why i questioned how you used it, and my questions apparently inspired you to revise your original statement and then "mansplain" to me what i already knew.    LOL

 

This is developing into another "information" and "knowledge" marathon stand-off.   What i've learned from that discussion is that some words are like Rorschach ink blot tests.  People see things differently because their minds process ideas and images differently.   And one  man's logic can be another one's  nonsense.  What i love about language is its fluidity.  But the downside is how words can get in the way.  The influence of ZEN has really made me appreciate the  intrigue of drawing conclusions from what is unspoken, by reading between the lines. How silence can be very loud  is also a powerful  lesson.   Anyway, i'm free to sign off on this  discussion because i have the ability to understand that it's not going anywhere but off on tangents. So, i'm done.  :rolleyes:

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Is there really any such thing as "freedom" in this world?

Freedom means unrestricted, being able to do and say whatever you want.

I don't know of any society on the planet where any human being can do this.
In every nation, in every society, in every home -there are rules and restrictions governing behavior and if those rules are broken and if those restrictions are violated....there is usually some sort of penalty.

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No one is free to do anything they what, if they expect to be able to engage with anyone else. But that is not the point of freedom; is it?

 

 

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But that is not the point of freedom; is it?


The point of freedom?

Different people desire what they think is freedom for as many different reasons.

Some want the right to express their creativity.
Others want the right to live a lewd and lascivious life without moral confines.
Others want the right to harm people.
And others just want to be left alone and not told what to do.

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Freedom to me means that people can do whatever they want, but they have to suffer the consequences.  

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Freedom to me means that people can do whatever they want, but they have to suffer the consequences.

 

That still wouldn't be freedom

Freedom means NO RESTRICTION

No society is a free society where negative consequences exist for certain actions because the very THOUGHT of facing those consequences is enough to restrict them.

They may be self-restricted....but still restricted none the less.

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 It's possible to avoid  consequences and restrictions in doing what ever you want to do.  Just depends on the circumstances.  

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Pioneer there are always restrictions and consequences, these issues do not take away from our freedom.

 

I'm free to skydive, but the chute might not open.  For some the possibility is enough to prevent them from engaging in the activity, but they are free to do it.  Now if they do it and the chute does indeed fail to deploy the consequence is death, but still they exercised their freedom.  Freedom includes one's ability to exercise caution, judgement, restraint.

 

Now a child may be prevented from skydiving, because a parent or the law may not permit it.  That child is less free than the adult.

 

 

 

 

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I have never experienced what I consider to be true freedom, so I have no idea what it really is and what it feels like, but I do know what I don't consider freedom. And everything this culture is, for me, is the opposite of how I envision/imagine authentic freedom. 

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6 hours ago, zaji said:

I have never experienced what I consider to be true freedom, so I have no idea what it really is and what it feels like, but I do know what I don't consider freedom. And everything this culture is, for me, is the opposite of how I envision/imagine authentic freedom. 

Leave the United States

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Troy

You said:

Pioneer there are always restrictions and consequences, these issues do not take away from our freedom.


But you also said:

No one is free to do anything they what, if they expect to be able to engage with anyone else.


Doesn't the second statement cancel out the first?



Now a child may be prevented from skydiving, because a parent or the law may not permit it. That child is less free than the adult.


I'm not sure there is actually any such thing as "less free"; it's like being "less married"...lol.
Either you're free or you're not.
But you mentioned something I found interesting......

Can any society really be "free" if children are under the control of their parents?

I would think that children would have to be released from control of their parents, there couldn't be any prisons or jails, and even mental patients would have to be released in order for a society to really call itself "free" for all people.

Which is why I said, I don't think there really IS a "free" society in this world.

Some are less restricted than others, but all of them have restrictions to a certain degree.

 

 

 

 



 

Zaji


And everything this culture is, for me, is the opposite of how I envision/imagine authentic freedom.


It was designed that way by social engineers.
This society was designed to get the maximum amount of labor from people for corporate use.


That's why the NUCLEAR FAMILY is pushed in this society instead of the traditonal extended families of African society which would provide more economic support during tough times.

It's also why cigarettes and alcohol are promoted.
It gets you addicted to the point you're FORCED to work in order to feed your addiction.

 







Del


Leave the United States


Wouldn't it be better if she stayed and tried to IMPROVE things rather than just pack up and leave?

Black people do too much bouncing and moving around.
Running from one city to the next, one village to the next, one country to the next looking to see which White man is going to treat us better.....lol.

How about we do what Booker T. Washington said and cast our buckets down where we are and start building OUR ideal society right where we happen to be standing.

 

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6 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:

Doesn't the second statement cancel out the first?

 

@Pioneer1, Restrictions and consequences  are attempts to curtail freedom.  We don't have to heed them.  There are laws against murder and penalties if you are caught, but people feel free to commit murder everyday.

 

7 minutes ago, Pioneer1 said:

I'm not sure there is actually any such thing as "less free"; it's like being "less married"...lol.

 

Pioneer there are degrees to everything -- including marriage.  People locked up in SuperMax prisons are less free than people who live in Australia.

 

I agree there can't be a completely free society, but you can get pretty close which is makes the trade off worth it.

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Troy
 

Pioneer there are degrees to everything -- including marriage. People locked up in SuperMax prisons are less free than people who live in Australia.


True there are degrees, but I still think that "freedom" is one of those things that are absolute.
Either you're free or you're not.
Perhaps you should flip it and talk about degrees of RESTRICTION rather than freedom.

 

 

I agree there can't be a completely free society, but you can get pretty close which is makes the trade off worth it.


I agree that we can't have a completely free society, nor would I want one.
I believe the fewwer unnecessary rules...the better; because it allows for one to express one's self and creativity to flourish.

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2 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

It was designed that way by social engineers.
This society was designed to get the maximum amount of labor from people for corporate use.


That's why the NUCLEAR FAMILY is pushed in this society instead of the traditonal extended families of African society which would provide more economic support during tough times.

It's also why cigarettes and alcohol are promoted.
It gets you addicted to the point you're FORCED to work in order to feed your addiction.

 

Yes indeed @Pioneer1. Exactly. Designed with intent.

2 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

Perhaps you should flip it and talk about degrees of RESTRICTION rather than freedom.

 

Yes! 

2 hours ago, Troy said:

I agree there can't be a completely free society, but you can get pretty close which is makes the trade off worth it.

 

Yes @Troy, bittersweet reality. 

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On 2/6/2018 at 1:31 AM, Delano said:

Freedom is the ability to choose your entertainment. 

 

@Delano, Yep!  choice and freedom go hand and hand.  Freedom, to me,  means I'm exercising the right to act on my behalf.  I have a sense of  agency.  If I'm only allowed to make decisions then someone is acting as  an agent thereby usurping my freedom. 

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8 hours ago, Troy said:

@Delano are you suggesting that people are more free in Australia, or that people can not be free in the United States?

The first time I didn't feel the pressure of my race was in Switzerland. 

 

I had some family friends come ti Australia for a visit. They also remarked about how colour wasn't a factor here.

That was my experience. 

Hi Pioneer 

Leaving and building aren't necessarily mutually exclusive.  

 

Travel opens your eyes to different ways to be in the world.  It gives perspective by leaving your fishbowl. 

5 hours ago, Troy said:

 

@Pioneer1, Restrictions and consequences  are attempts to curtail freedom.  We don't have to heed them.  There are laws against murder and penalties if you are caught, but people feel free to commit murder everyday.

 

 

Pioneer there are degrees to everything -- including marriage.  People locked up in SuperMax prisons are less free than people who live in Australia.

 

I agree there can't be a completely free society, but you can get pretty close which is makes the trade off worth it.

But you can release some if the mental shackles society puts on you.

5 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

Perhaps you should flip it and talk about degrees of RESTRICTION rather than freedom.

 

That's good.

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1 hour ago, Delano said:

Leaving and building aren't necessarily mutually exclusive.  

 

Travel opens your eyes to different ways to be in the world.  It gives perspective by leaving your fishbowl. 

 

Very true. I lived in Germany for 2 years and I actually liked it better than the United States. I almost stayed, but was young and didn't have the wherewithal to figure it out. I was only 22 with a new baby born in Germany. 

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True the other thing is i am a citizen of the world. I am not saying the elsewhere is this racial utopia.  However you can breathe a bit. 

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I think traveling to other lands and meeting different people's is one of the best things you can do to educate yourself.

Believe it or not, in my brief visits to Europe I learned a lot more about AMERICA.

I would look at the buildings in Europe and recognize that THIS is probably what they were trying to build in Philadelphia or Chicago....but didn't have the patience to do so....lol.

I found out that White Europeans tended to have a different mentality on certain things than White Americans.

I always encourage AfroAmericans to travel.
Get a passport and get out of the country every now and then to see other possibilities and other ways of thinking and doing things.

But at the end of the day, America is where it's at......

THIS IS OUR HOME.

If Black people don't learn some sense and settle down here and get some land, business, and a proper knowledge of themselves and the world HERE...it's useless to pack their backs and go running off anywhere else.


If you're a fool in Los Angeles....you're gonna be a fool in Lagos or Capetown or Berlin or Shang Hai.

With the right knowledge....Black people can turn Haiti into Fantasy Island.

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1 hour ago, Troy said:

@Delano, I wonder if the Aborigines would agree with you?

When Australians asked how I am treated here i say, "Fine I am not aboriginal, I am black guy from the Bronx. "

I wasn't getting any love in Italy. But Italian men like black women. Context matters.

@Pioneer I would love to do some projects in the states. But I am not so keen on living there. 

Overall i would agree with your post.

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