Troy Posted February 10, 2019 Report Share Posted February 10, 2019 This is really a follow up to a conversation that divereged from the inherent beauty of Black women to spirituality. Often we hear the phrase, "Everything happens for a reason." The phrase is bandied about so much it is a cliche; a catch-all, used in place of an actual explanation. No matter how bad the event: "Everything happens for a reason." Death of a child, genocide, a fender bender, lost keys, running into an old flame or meeting a new one; "Everything happens for a reason." Of course this means that the Universe, Zeus, Jehovah, or (insert your favorite deity) had a hand in it. Does anyone believe this? Does everything really happen for a reason? Why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delano Posted February 10, 2019 Report Share Posted February 10, 2019 It could that occurrences are not random. Just that the complexity is so high it appears that way. Also most things are cyclical across different scales. Most things have a frequency hence a number. Numbetdare defined by their position and nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pioneer1 Posted February 10, 2019 Report Share Posted February 10, 2019 I don't just believe everything happens for a reason, I KNOW it does. ...because every event has a cause (reason). The question is WHAT was/were the reason(s) that caused the event? Were they Divine, purely physical, spiritual, cosmic, imaginary, accidental, "other".....or a combination of the afore mentioned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Posted February 10, 2019 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2019 2 hours ago, Delano said: ...the complexity is so high it appears that way. This has to be true (I think) But this does not mean there is a reason for anything, and it means everything that happened or will happen could be determined provided we had the computational power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cynique Posted February 11, 2019 Report Share Posted February 11, 2019 4 hours ago, Troy said: Does everything really happen for a reason? Why? i don't think so. To believe this is to support the idea of predestination which means that everything has already happened and we are just catching up with t it. i think our decisions influence our lives and such decisions are examples of free will, not some external force that is guiding us with an outcome in mind. i do, however, believe in mental telepathy between individuals but this connection between 2 people on the same wave length is a whole other dynamic, having more to do with randomness. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Posted February 11, 2019 Author Report Share Posted February 11, 2019 @Cynique you know if you throw a ball one can determine precisely where it will land given enought information about the weight of the ball, your strength, wind speed, angle of release, etc. It is a relatively minor calculation once you have all the info. Im suggesting, as Del implied, that even your very decision the throw the ball could be predetermined with enough information. The idea that you "decided" to throw the ball is an illusion. No different than the ball "deciding" to land on the ground after sailing through the air. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pioneer1 Posted February 11, 2019 Report Share Posted February 11, 2019 There's a difference between a REASON and a PLAN. Everything happens for a reason, but there doesn't necessarily have to be an organized plan behind it. But Elijah Muhammad taught that "wise Black scientists" got together and PRE-WROTE the events that were supposed to take place at the beginning of each 25,000 year cycle of history. If this were true, then it would add credibility to the concept of pre-destination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cynique Posted February 11, 2019 Report Share Posted February 11, 2019 40 minutes ago, Troy said: you know if you throw a ball one can determine precisely where it will land given enought information about the weight of the ball, your strength, wind speed, angle of release, etc. It is a relatively minor calculation once you have all the info. But was it predetermined that i was going to throw the ball? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delano Posted February 11, 2019 Report Share Posted February 11, 2019 My experiences lead me to believe that free will is an illusion. I am also not certain that this life isn't a simulation. Of it were we would have no way of knowing or telling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delano Posted February 11, 2019 Report Share Posted February 11, 2019 4 hours ago, Troy said: could be determined provided we had the computational power. I believe the biggest leaps in knowledge are due to insight. Since computers have not been a factor throughout most of history. You could argue that commuters makes research easier and in some cases possible. Yet I still believe insight trumps computational resources. The Man Who Loved Only Numbers is a biography of the famous mathematician Paul Erdős 3 hours ago, Cynique said: but this connection between 2 people on the same wave length is a whole other dynamic, having more to do with randomness. I am not following what you mean. Can you explain it or give an example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Posted February 11, 2019 Author Report Share Posted February 11, 2019 12 hours ago, Cynique said: But was it predetermined that i was going to throw the ball? Yes, everything including you question to me and the words I'm typing now. It is all deterministic. As @Delano said our sense of free will is an illusion -- a elaborate one to be sure. It is so complex, that to our simple minds it is indistinguishable from free will or randomness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cynique Posted February 11, 2019 Report Share Posted February 11, 2019 What if you're wrong about this for reasons too complex for you to comprehend? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Posted February 11, 2019 Author Report Share Posted February 11, 2019 What if you are wrong? I'm not being trite by saying that. I could be wrong, but what difference does it make? The answer is unknowable or rather unproveable. As @Delano suggests we can use our intuition to gain this insight on this idea, but we will most certainly never be able to prove it. Again, the ball will fall. It does not matter if the reason it falls is beyond our comprehension. In fact. most people have no clue why the ball falls. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cynique Posted February 11, 2019 Report Share Posted February 11, 2019 That's my point. if everything is too complex and beyond our comprehension then things are reduced to speculation, something everybody can do without being told they are wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delano Posted February 11, 2019 Report Share Posted February 11, 2019 3 hours ago, Cynique said: That's my point. if everything is too complex and beyond our comprehension then things are reduced to speculation, something everybody can do without being told they are wrong. Which is why I say there are no facts or objective reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Posted February 11, 2019 Author Report Share Posted February 11, 2019 @Cynique in the final analysis, at the most granular level, this is true. At a macro level, the kind of things we can observe like the tossing of a ball, we can understand these things. @Delano there are some facts, but probably not an objective reality. Both IMHO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delano Posted February 11, 2019 Report Share Posted February 11, 2019 Troy how do you figure there are facts, if there's no objective reality? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Posted February 12, 2019 Author Report Share Posted February 12, 2019 @Delano what temperature does water boil at room temperature at sea level? What is the speed of light in a vacuum? What is 1+1? We know these things because they are facts. It does does not matter what your objective reality is, these things will always be true, as long as you are in THIS universe... and we are all in this universe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delano Posted February 12, 2019 Report Share Posted February 12, 2019 Is light a particle or a wave? It depends, doesn't it @Troy. The constant in E = MC² isn't constant itself.. Is a black hole a vacuum, and does it alter the speed of light? I would have thought you would have remembered this from the other day, @Troy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Posted February 12, 2019 Author Report Share Posted February 12, 2019 @Delano, one-who-answers-no-questions, a black hole is perhaps the exact opposite of a vacuum and nothing alters the speed of light. E, in the equation, is not a constant, but c is. But all of this is besides the point. I stated what are obvious facts. Is not 1+ 1 equal to 2 @Delano? Is that not a factual statement? Would you at least answer THAT simple question and thereby lay your objection to my statement to rest? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delano Posted February 12, 2019 Report Share Posted February 12, 2019 You are correct Troy. Space is not a vacuum and gravity does not alter the speed of light. Someone needs to tell Einstein he is wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delano Posted February 12, 2019 Report Share Posted February 12, 2019 1 hour ago, Troy said: nothing alters the speed of light. E, in the equation, is not a constant, but c is. Where did i say E us a constant? Or how do you verify facts of there isn't an objective reality? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Posted February 12, 2019 Author Report Share Posted February 12, 2019 Mr. One-who-answers-no-questions, you are the master of diversionary tactics aren't you? You can't find anything to support your alien invasion claim, but you can cherry pick text from an obsure text rather than answer a simple question. You could also include the entire text, the part that describes the relativistic nature of the speed of light. Better yet, just tell me if one plus one plus is two is a fact or not. Because pretending like you understand Einstein's theory put you in a small club of theoretical physicists. Plus it does not distract me from the fact that you have no response to my contention that there are indeed facts. So, is 1+1=2 a fact or not @Delano? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delano Posted February 12, 2019 Report Share Posted February 12, 2019 Troy I already said you were right and Einstein was wrong. 6 hours ago, Troy said: You can't find anything to support your alien invasion claim, Can you quote where i said there was an alien invasion? I am going to take a break from wild accusations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Posted February 12, 2019 Author Report Share Posted February 12, 2019 50 minutes ago, Delano said: Troy I already said you were right My bad. I thought you were being sacastic. My percieved sacrasm was reflected back to you when i wrote "alien invasion." I was referring the "Alien Spacecraft" post where you refused to link to a source. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delano Posted February 12, 2019 Report Share Posted February 12, 2019 I am going to take a break from this monologue. I am going to take a break from this monologue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cynique Posted February 14, 2019 Report Share Posted February 14, 2019 For years, during online discussions, i have been attributing the conclusions i reach to my having taken an over view of things and looked at the big picture. Reaction to this has indicated a total disregard for my panoramic perspective. Now, a serendipitous epiphany has erupted in our midst, giving pause, inspiring a fatalistic view of life, one requiring a resignation to the profound idea that everything happens for inexplicable reasons beyond our comprehension, a declaration of dependence replete with the idea that we are all just pawns in a game which rules out free will. Watching now from my bird's eye view of the big picture, a question comes to mind leaving me to wonder, since everything happens for a reason, why do gluttons for punishment insist on descending into a constant state of fear of and loathing for the demonic social media and all of its by-products, and the enduring racism that thwarts justice, the looming threat of disastrous climate change, and the apocalyptic overtones of political upheaval? A better way of coping with the inevitable is to just chill and take life as it comes. Especially since things might turn out for the best! Since shit happens for reasons too convoluted for mere mortals to wrap their brains around, why sweat it? Leave the hassle to people like me, who believe we are in control to the extent that the choices we make are solely what determine our destiny. Adopting this approach makes things more interesting and at least allows us to enjoy our guilty pleasures along the way. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel Hopkins Posted February 14, 2019 Report Share Posted February 14, 2019 28 minutes ago, Cynique said: better way of coping with the inevitable is to just chill and take life as it comes @Cynique You've spoken like a true hustler !!! one of the many reasons I admire you!!! “Always remember whether you be sucker or hustler in the world out there, you’ve got that vital edge if you can iron- clad your feelings. I picture the human mind as a movie screen. If you’re a dopey sucker, you’ll just sit and watch all kinds of mindwrecking, damn fool movies on that screen. After all, we are the absolute bosses of that whole theatre and show in our minds. We even write the script. So always write positive, dynamic scripts and show only the best movies for you on that screen whether you are pimp or priest.” - Iceberg Slim On 2/10/2019 at 3:00 PM, Troy said: Does everything really happen for a reason? Yes, I believe it, @Troy . "Law of causation" <--- not really a law but I believe nothing ever happens without a cause - even if I haven't seen the cause. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delano Posted February 15, 2019 Report Share Posted February 15, 2019 I Love your mind Cynique. I have no plan, and it's working for me. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Posted February 15, 2019 Author Report Share Posted February 15, 2019 10 hours ago, Cynique said: Since shit happens for reasons too convoluted for mere mortals to wrap their brains around, why sweat it? I believe the vast majority of Americans share this world view. @Mel Hopkins i actually do believe that everthing happens for a reason. Cause and effect; from the moment of the big bang 13 odd billion years ago, the die was cast, and everything that would happen was set in motion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delano Posted February 15, 2019 Report Share Posted February 15, 2019 Quite a few things happened that I didn't plan. but worked out well. I recall vividly seeing two accidents right before they happened. due to carelessness. It's like your watching a movie and you are powerless to change the outcome. Fact is stranger than fiction because fiction has to make sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cynique Posted February 15, 2019 Report Share Posted February 15, 2019 What i tend to be comfortable with is that the consequences of our decisions are already in place, but we do have a free choice as to which decision we make. e.g. A plane crash is meant to happen. If i choose at the last minute to not take the doomed plane, i will not be killed. However, if i choose to board the plane because i really want to get someplace fast, i will be killed. I am free to make a choice as to which predetermined outcome befalls me. This is in line with there being multi verses waiting for us to shift into, depending on which decision we make. i may no longer exist in another universe because i will have died due to a choice i made. So, i will accept that events are meant to happen, but i cling to the idea that different possibilities exist for our futures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delano Posted February 16, 2019 Report Share Posted February 16, 2019 Cynique you sound like both a mystic and a quantum mechanic 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel Hopkins Posted February 23, 2019 Report Share Posted February 23, 2019 On 2/10/2019 at 3:00 PM, Troy said: Does anyone believe this? Does everything really happen for a reason? Why? @Troy I also have to add -on occasion "that Ish happens"... no rhyme, no reason -it just does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Posted February 23, 2019 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2019 I think everything happen for no reason. All the reasons we come up with are just stories we tell ourselves. Different people will have a different story for the same event. The reasons we conjure are as unique as the individual. If they are religious then it is all in God's plan. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel Hopkins Posted February 23, 2019 Report Share Posted February 23, 2019 (edited) 7 hours ago, Troy said: I think everything happen for no reason. This is provocative statement! Please explain/describe how everything can happen for no reason... Edited February 23, 2019 by Mel Hopkins added describe 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delano Posted February 23, 2019 Report Share Posted February 23, 2019 @Troyyou have overtaken my position about there not being any facts nor objective reality. Well done. 8 hours ago, Troy said: think everything happen for no reason. All the reasons we come up with are just stories we tell ourselves I would have expected more stories, this is not a very robust simulation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Posted February 23, 2019 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2019 5 hours ago, Mel Hopkins said: Please explain/describe how everything can happen for no reason... It requires no additional explaination: nothing happens for a "reason." Perhaps you can give an example of something that happens for some reason, and I'll show you a story an elaborate or creative one but a contrivance nonetheless. 3 hours ago, Delano said: you have overtaken my position about there not being any facts nor objective reality. Well done. Thank you. It was a deliberately provacative statement that no one has poked any holes in Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delano Posted February 23, 2019 Report Share Posted February 23, 2019 Provocative. Troy it's all hole. I was waiting to hear your explanation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel Hopkins Posted February 23, 2019 Report Share Posted February 23, 2019 2 hours ago, Troy said: nothing happens for a "reason." @Troy I concur. “Nothing happens for a reason” However, I asked you to describe / explain your statement: “Everything happens for no reason.” 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Posted February 24, 2019 Author Report Share Posted February 24, 2019 @Mel Hopkins I'm not sure what you are missing. There is no "reason" behind anything that happens. There is no omnipotent deity, collective consciousness, nothing putting people into our lives, putting us in situation or otherwise orchestrating our lives. Each and action from the formation of this planet 4.5 billion years ago, to the emergence of sentient life here, to the marriage of your parent, to your birth, and to you ultimately asking me to explain my statement again yesterday. Knowing the initial conditions the exchange we are having right now could have been determined 13.8 billion years ago when the universe, as we know it was formed. The computational power required to make these determinations would be mind-boggling complex, but mind-boggling is not impossible. Does that answer your question? Side Bar that does not support my argument: This morning I upset someone I care about, not intentionally, but sometimes the way I couch things can seem insensitive (as Del has described ). After speaking I went to work and asked Google to play some songs, in a manner that I never did before. Would you believe the first song that popped up perfectly explained what I was feeling and the sentiment I was trying to express. I could not believe it! I looked up the lyrics and the song actually did a better job. I texted the person the song's title and artist, and asked them to look it up. They did and they got it. When I heard the song I could not hep but think I heard that song for a reason 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel Hopkins Posted February 24, 2019 Report Share Posted February 24, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Troy said: Does that answer your question @Troy , no it doesn’t. However it appears you’re responding based on the supposition i’m looking for the answer to be based on a deity. I am not. Natural laws may provide an explanation but if there’s such thing as free will than there’s no deity orchestrating anything. But that side bar is ABSOLUTELY intriguing! I’ve actually written about the phenomenon in which I hypthesize that frequency of music creates worlds... and it is actually how we communicate with each other and nature. Words and talking is inadequate but it’s the intonation that we respond to. For ex. I was in the kitchen and CSpan was playing in the background... next thing I know I hear this voice and it stops me ... I run to the television like its the second coming of Jesus speaking... but actually it was U.S. Rep Hakeem Sekou Jeffries ... His voice sounded like home... and then when I researched him I realized he was “home”.. “Brooklyn in da house”!!! I couldn’t tell you what he said - because his words didn’t reach me. It was his tone that I was following... So when a true musician writes the music he usually knows what “lyrics” to put to it that will provide full expression to communicate its meaning. @Troybtw, I always understand you when you communicate from the heart. Edited February 24, 2019 by Mel Hopkins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delano Posted February 24, 2019 Report Share Posted February 24, 2019 @Troy maybe the question isn't looking for the cause. But trying to understand the significance of the effect. In which case it means that there are no randomn occurrences. I seem to be a connector or I used to be. For instance at one of my brunches I had two people who were next door neighbors but had never met. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Posted February 25, 2019 Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2019 8 hours ago, Mel Hopkins said: So when a true musician writes the music he usually knows what “lyrics” to put to it that will provide full expression to communicate its meaning. True, the communicative power is music is quite fascinating. Even music in a foreign language can faithfully communicate a sentiment, though this is a more personal experience and not as easily shared as a song with lyrucs you can understand. The following song is one i really enjoy. Without looking up and translating the lyrics what emotions does the song conjure? 8 hours ago, Mel Hopkins said: Troybtw, I always understand you when you communicate from the heart. Mel I always communicate from the heart. But i think you mean i resonate more with you when i relate a personal story. Is that true? People are moved by stories. Facts and figures don't mean a thing without a good story behind it. If no story exists to explain something we craft a story. 8 hours ago, Mel Hopkins said: However it appears you’re responding based on the supposition i’m looking for the answer to be based on a deity. Actually @Mel Hopkins I no clue what yiu question means was grasping fir straws trying to answer it after a couple of tries Im afraid i cant answer your question. 8 hours ago, Mel Hopkins said: Natural laws may provide an explanation but if there’s such thing as free will than there’s no deity orchestrating anything. Yes, that is the idea I'm exploring. There is no free will. Free will is yet another story we tell ourselves. 7 hours ago, Delano said: In which case it means that there are no randomn occurrences. Again this is what im saying nothing is randon there is a cause and effect to everthing. We can know the future outcomes of everthing. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cynique Posted February 25, 2019 Report Share Posted February 25, 2019 13 minutes ago, Troy said: Again this is what im saying nothing is randon there is a cause and effect to everthing. We can know the future outcomes of everthing. How do you know that this is not something you are telling yourself? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Posted February 25, 2019 Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2019 It is something I'm telling myself and this could have been foreseen at the instant of the big bang. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cynique Posted February 25, 2019 Report Share Posted February 25, 2019 12 minutes ago, Troy said: ...and this could have been foreseen at the instant of the big bang. how do you know that's not something you're telling yourself? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delano Posted February 25, 2019 Report Share Posted February 25, 2019 illuminating 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel Hopkins Posted February 25, 2019 Report Share Posted February 25, 2019 1 hour ago, Troy said: There is no free will. Free will is yet another story we tell ourselves. @Troy, then why did you write this? Who told you to dispute the concept of “free will” 1 hour ago, Troy said: But i think you mean i resonate more with you when i relate a personal story. Is that true? @Troy not ruling it out but what resonates is a level of vulnerability - that is more heart than head. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel Hopkins Posted February 25, 2019 Report Share Posted February 25, 2019 1 hour ago, Troy said: Without looking up and translating the lyrics what emotions does the song conjure? @Troy The emotion is ostracized but that’s too strong. This song feels like fraternizing and men bonding. While listening two images came to me - one was a scene from Lima where men were in a shopping district much like delancey street. They were sitting outside their retail shops chatting and more interested in their conversations to solve world affairs.. The other image is night life in sao paulo, brazil . Where men gather together at the restaurants. No women - just men. Now I’m going to see what this song is about 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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