Troy

@Chevdove you can run a search on our very protracted and contentious conversations on "race." But, in a nutshell, despite all of the science to the contrary @Pioneer1 believes that there are multiple human races based upon the different phenotypes you are familiar with. Like Michelle Alexander, I exhibited a prodigious level of restraint and patience despite a deluge of ignorance and an onslaught of misinformation. Like the more famous Michelle said, when Pioneer goes low you go high 🙂

@Cynique, So you would look sideways at a women who could not identify the father when it is done naturally, but f they have the money to go to a clinic an select from some anonymous donor that is AOK huh? I agree with your last statement, and if there are enough dissenters to the prevailing moral standards, in a reasonable society, to standards are subject to change. But then we have a slippery slope; at some point a line has to be drawn and still people will cross it. There are always those "bold" souls who will push any boundary created. There is a reason fundamentalists are so resistant to change and why the elimination of all rules leads to chaos. The trick is to find some imperfect middle ground. Asian people still use skin color against each other whether is is china, japan or india. Colorism is present in all of those cultures @Mel Hopkins

@Chevdove, please, share the sources of you evidence. I'll post the video of the women I spoke to about the Giants maybe she said something in it that might be useful.

@Cynique, allow me to clarify; I say that all people, but Black women in particular, are manipulated by slick marketers into behavior (including dress) that not only does not serve them but does them harm. Sure, self lower self esteem is often a consequence but worsened health is another. Cynique you know cigarettes are still heavily marketed in poor communities? Have you have noticed how much bigger Black women are today? Of course women have learned to accept the new normal, but being obese is not healthy, despite the hype to the contrary. No one reasonable will argue that high heals, even the 4" ones are healthy foot wear and you are the only one I've ever heard justify skin lightening cream (I guess you find what Michael Jackson did to himself perfectly normal). White men are affected too -- spending tons of money on remedies for baldness, pills to correct their limp penises, and lining up to pay a couple hundred dollars a ticket to see some Black athletes run with a ball down a field. Cynique it is all related. Please stop saying that I'm trying to tell women how to dress. More than anything I want women (indeed all of us) to be free of the manipulation, free of being made to consume things were not only don't need but hurt us. Thanks for the definition @Chevdove where did you grow up?

Hey @Mel Hopkins, I don't think I generalize across all people based upon my own experience. Can you give me an example, in this or any conversation, where I've lumped everyone into a group based upon my own experience? I do not believe all people are equally influenced. But to suggest that we all (or most of us) are exercising our own agency when all the data and evidence suggests otherwise is to ignoring the obvious. This is not based my personal experience. Why do you think Cambridge Analytica was put out of business? Why are hundred of billions spent on marketing? Why are people running around yelling "Dilly-dilly?" Why do you know the ingredients to a Big Mac? Why are millions of people slavishly tied to their mobile devices? Why did people vote for 45? Is this evidence our control or being controlled?

I did not say "ostracized," though in some communities this would indeed be the case. But come Cynique don't tell me you would not feel some kind of way if all your daughters showed up pregnant by men they could not say was the father was without a DNA test. Mel the "four-eyed gansta" I made it up. It is a play on a name I heard somewhere else. I just did a search and see the name is not unique...

@Cynique that is a good point. You'll noticed one of the kids "aced" the test by saying they were all equally smart. However, I'm sure the people who administered the test took these things into account and we only saw a small sample of the students who were questioned. We just don't have enough information to judge the validity of the study -- at least not without examining all of the data and having the skill set to assess it. I guess the fundamental question here is whether, or not, you believe that Eurocentric standards of beauty influence Black women. Seemingly all the studies and evidence in the world won't change you mind if you do not believe that it does. The notion that Nigerian's use of skim bleaching is merely a desire to achieve, "...skin color resembling beaming copper that shows off their face, instead dense onyx which absorbs it" Tells me exactly what you believe and how far you'll go to justify that belief to yourself.

This is fascinating! I'm actually leaning more to Pioneer than Cynique in this conversation -- sweet Baby Jesus LOL! Cynique the law is what is stopping @Pioneer1! First of all, polygamy is against the law and marriages are difficult to get out of. Besides the fact that despite what you wrote @Cynique out of wedlock births are not as widely accepted as you suggest. Large swaths of this country are far more morally conservative that you perhaps realize. The stigma still exists for many. I'm not suggesting I know what is "natural" or that humans are more suited to polygamy than monogamy as Pioneer suggest. He may be right; I don't know. What I do know however is that we need rules to function in a working society. Of course with rules of conduct there will always be people who can't comply. If there are enough of people who can't comply, good societies make an accommodation and change the rules. Now, the "get married to someone of the opposite sex, when you are a virgin, and never have sex with anyone else until your or your partner dies" seems unnatural to me. Further, is seems impractical given that virtually no one does this -- despite the fact that the Church teaches this and people feel guilty when that can't meet the standard and are doomed to Hell. It is no secret that human sexuality is dysfunctional in America for this and other reasons. Again, I don't know what is natural, but I suspect that multiple partners, throughout life may be more natural for men than life long monogamy. Of course some brothers can do this without a problem, shoot some Brothers don't ever have to have sex. Perhaps what is natural Cynique, as you suggest, is up to the individual. But individual sexual liberty are not the cultural norm. Women can file for divorce for infidelity and take 1/2 a man's stuff.

@Pioneer1 you asked Brother LOL!

...many Black people get shot merely by sitting in their homes. How Not to Get Shot: And Other Advice From White People by D.L. Hughley

It looks like a few more Brothers are manning up and exhibiting some forms of protest during the preseason. Let's see how thing go...

@Pioneer1 yeah that was the question I asked @Mel Hopkins too. Our book club is discussing Barracoon next month. It is a first hand account, related by Zora Neale Hurston, of a Brother who survived being kidnapped in Africa, the middle passage, and enslavement in Amerikkka. This is is a first hand account. The formerly enslaved African is of course a primary source, but if I understand Mel correctly, the book Zora Neal Hurston wrote relating the story is also a primary source. I also assume my relating the content of the book from memory would not be a primary source... is that right Mel. -------------- I recorded a video of a woman who talked about giant Africans (something I currently do not believe). I asked where she got this information and she told me I could find it on YouTube. I immediately thought about a video I previously saw on Youtube of a dig which showed the bones of a 20 foot skeleton. I immediately dismissed it as a hoax - because if this were true surely we would all already know about it.. right? If you frame of reference is that we are constantly being lied to and information is being withheld from you you are susceptible to believe anything... which is entirely understandable.

We have to rely to journalist to supply the information because we can not collect it ourselves in most cases. But if you listen carefully you can sometimes figure out if something makes sense. The unemployment numbers you hear touted all the time simply do not reflect "true" unemployment, simply because of the rules they use to count "employed" people ignored the chronically unemployed. The government tells us how they count the "unemployed" but the regular news readers never explain this, usually some activist gives you the real figures. @Pioneer1, if we supported our own news platforms we might be able to fund the journalists needed to collect the truth need for our empowerment. But we don't, so we rely on corporate run social media for our news.

@Pioneer1 is right @Cynique there is "nothing" natural about the social constructs we've created for ourselves -- lifelong monogamy is one of them, but these "rules" is what seperates of from wild animals... and I mean that in all seriousness.

I'm saddened and speechless.

"Great Grand PooBah of how black women are obligated to look" LOL! No, @Cynique I not telling, or care, how women, or anyone else for that matters dresses (save the generally accepted standards required in various situations -- for example I don't think boys pants should sagging in school). You mentioning that the video I posted reflected a study from "8 years" ago was a thinly veiled attempt to suggest that it was ancient history -- do you think anything has changed? OK lets leave the issue of Black people trying to to achieve a eurocentric standard of beauty alone -- indeed I'll even concede the point. Instead lets follow up on @Mel Hopkins's point of "european women trying to look like us." I agree with this indeed it is the foundation of my point -- white women are not immune to these pressures. We all know that white women are literally killing themselves trying to look like Black women with butt implants and the lip injections, etc. Again women, much more so that men, are manipulated by marketers into engaging in behavior as it relates to how they dress and it only causes them harm, or impovershes them. Mel, do you still go out for the evening with the 5" heels, but pack a pair of sensible flats, because you know your feet are going to be hurting before the evening is over? Women our age are now having foot surgery to repair the damage caused by stupid shoes some white guy invented to make money -- which women buy by the closet full. Elvis Presley used to get his hair poofed up to look like the Black blues men while Black blues men conked their hair to look like white people. Go figure. I can't believe y'all have never seen sisters with Blond wigs?! I'm going to Jackson MS next weekend and I guarantee I see some sisters with Blond hair and I'm taking photos! LOL! Mel I see you clearly have never set foot into one of ATL many strip clubs LOL! Mel, I also went to my local B&N to buy the new issue of Ebony that contains your articles, but they still had the July/August Issue on the stand I'll try later next week, Poets & Writers had Poet Terrance Hayes on the cover... I brought that.

That would be nice, but won't get him booted by the end of the year.

@Mel Hopkins Ebony article, cover story, ad subject are great. I'm leaving my office right now heading to my local B&N and with fingers crossed hoping I can pick up this issue. I'm also going to subscribe -- congratulations! Now back to the subject at hand... First Mel you should get to NYC more often you'll have no problem finding Black women with Blond hair. Second, lets not get carried away here: I'm not saying that all Black women who dye their hair Blond are self hating. My ex dyed her hair Blond, but her hair texture was natural and I don't think she was a trying to look white or be like Bey. You might also try visiting the 'hood, in any major city, and you'll have no trouble finding sisters with blond hair. Mel the "#blackgirlmagic movement," (news to me), by passed me because I simply do not use Twitter. I post stuff and react to stuff that I post. Occasionally, I react to stuff that the few people I follow (like you and Chris) post, but that is it. I think the vast majority of Black men. like me, are completely obvious to the stuff that goes on on twitter -- save 45s tweets that are shoved down our throats by the media. Also, I don't see how the covers support you point? One woman is bald the other hair straight hair. How does this reflect Black empowerment -- save Ebony (which is not a fashion magazine) The point that you ladies are ignoring is the fact (I assume this is not in dispute) that Black women are continually subjected to images of beauty that reflect european standards and this adversely impacts their self-image -- why is this even up for debate? Of course I'm not saying that YOU and your educated, urbane ,and sophisticated pals are impacted. But why you can't see that a great many of your sisters are escapes me. I'm beginning to think it is simply denial. I said that Black children still prefer white dolls. @Cynique immediately rejected this accused me be of being stuck in the past, When I showed her recent evidence to support my statement she ignored it -- even when I directly asked about it.... denial. I too have travelled the world and the most stricking thing that I discovered in Nigeria was that most women wore extensions or wigs with bone straight hair. Skin bleaching creams were prominently displayed in stores! Why on earth would a Nigerian sister need to bleach her skin?! @Cynique, @Mel Hopkins I'd be happy to read your explanation for this phenomenon. @Chevdove what is TWA hair style? Yeah the video was very sad to watch...

LOL! @Pioneer1 yes! Our conversation about race readily comes to mind.

OK let me listen to the entire thing and get back to you.

@Delano you know very well that there is no scientific basis for race, but that the social construct of "race" is alive and well. You know there is a difference right? Seriously, why waste our time playing games, while Cynique and I are engaged in a serious discussion? Sure @Cynique, in the infinite scheme of things what an individual woman chooses to do with the stuff on the top of her head means nothing. However this is just one manifestation of the multifaceted, relentless, and multi-generational assault against Black culture, people, and institutions. As a result, I'm not a proponent of trying the solve the problem of racism by going after the symptoms of the problem. Snatching the Blond extensions out of every woman head won't do a damn thing to eliminate white racism and the marketers who exploit it. You did not express your feelings on, or explain, why Black kids still see white dolls as smarter, nicer, and just damn better. I'm curious to read what you think given you did not think it was still true. Breaking down racial barriers is overrated. Bey being on the cover of Vogue will not save a single Black owned magazine nor enrich anyone other than Queen Bey and her photographer.

I'm sorry @Cynique, but you may be unaware of the fact that the white/black doll tests were repeated as recently as 2010 with the similar results -- and the stereotypes persist clearly into adulthood. "We are still living in a society where dark things are devalued and light things are valued." I, of course, don't have to tell you what white children believe... And don't get me started on the adverse impact of Barbie on Black women and their body image. I'm not generalizing or exaggerating. I'm also not saying that all women are running around in straight Blond wigs or that even all of these hate their Blackness -- but surely you must see that some women are and that the impact is real and worthy of being addressed. Fortunately it is being addressed, as more Black women embrace hair styles and are "glamorizing" themselves in ways that are not based on eurocentric standards of beauty. But we are clearly not out of the woods. You tout Beyonce's control of Vogue's cover as if it was the pinnacle of Black achievement... and this is my point. Would you (or the media) be making as big a deal of this if Bey had taken artistic control of Ebony's cover or whatever Black owned magazines are left? Personally I'm not impressed that Bey is taking control of Vogue or that she got a Black man an assignment. I'll celebrate when we react the same way when it is a Black owned magazine getting that shine -- that is what Black empowerment really means.

@Pioneer1 what was the point of posting this? it is almost 30 minutes in length and I only listened to the first 2 minutes? While I was listening I checked Willie D's Youtube account is still up: https://www.youtube.com/user/RelentlessMV/about with 73 million views -- not too shabby. 72 times the number of views my channel has... If there is a part that is important for us to hear please let us know the timestamp -- thanks As you know, Google rules with an iron fist in America. They have never demonstrated any affinity for Black people. They are all about the paper as in, Slap! "bitch where's mah money!"

Of course @Cynique falling prey to marketers is not a Black male or female thing -- it is both. The idea that Black men pay hundreds of dollars for a pair of sneakers that cost a few dollars to make is ridiculous. But this too is a subject that has been beaten to death since Air Jordans topped $100 a pair a generation ago. Today sneakers are selling on the secondary market for hundreds of dollars a pair. Our own @CD Burns has made quite a bit of money in this space. I've previously lamented the fact that men are now getting their eyebrows arched and sitting in the salons longer than women getting their hair "did." It is not about criticizing women it's about criticizing the whole system. However, in this case, the topic of discussion that @Delano raised was "Queen Bey and empowerment." which is why we are talking about women. If you want to start a conversation about how men are manipulated into behaviors that don't serve us have at it, indeed I'll join in the fun. But the idea I find it hard to believe is that you would completely reject the notion that Black women are influenced by eurocentric standards of beauty to their detriment. This is tantamount to putting your head in the sand. We all know little Black girls still see the Blond haired blued eyed doll as being prettier! So if Black women want to run around in Blond wigs and call it empowerment fine, but be prepared for our people to see their nappy black hair in ugly and inferior.