Troy

Del I was interested in having you acknowledge that you and Pioneer are not all that different and indeed have more in common than you are willing to acknowledge. You are not from different worlds.

Elva I'm sure Cynique was referring to how I'm always focusing on socio-economic class. YOu have not been around long enough to have read my many rants of the subject. But we, as a culture, can certainly use a little more class how we comport ourselves.

I know exactly where this statue is; it a short walk from where I live. I read the plaque that goes with it recently. Obviously, they left that bit of info off. Man, are the prerequisites for having a statue erected in your honor being a rich, white, male, white devil? Fortunately, also within walking distance are more prominent statues of douglass, ellington, and Tubman. :-)

Really. Care to elaborate. I still have not seen it.

Well Cynique, it is more than just tearing down the statues it is the time and effort required to fight to have it done. Again, since racism was far worse before these statues existed it is not clear to my why their absence will make a bit of difference. But we'll agree to disagree on this issue. I think I do a bit more than "stand around, explaining and describing" Cynique, and you know this too. Besides I would not dismiss the importance of explaining, describing, reading, and talking about ideas. I think if we all did more of these things the country would be in a better place.

OK Pioneer I guess I'm getting caught up on your equating "weak" with "recessive." Pioneer what is the difference between a light skinned Black person and a dark skinned white person? Again because "race" itself is arbitrary rules like "one drop" are perfect valid, even though you don't personally like it.

@Cynique, I really don't know why they erected these monuments. Why do people create tomb stones? I presume they are honoring the dead. Perhaps they are honoring people who sacrificed for a cause. In any event, I doubt they were erected to piss you and I off. These things statues, swastikas, the Virginia battle flag have been coopted by racists. Obviously I don't think overt racism should be tolerated, but you already know this so I don't understand why you write stuff like that. The statues don't make racists; the racists existed before the dumb statues and will exist after they are gone. Are we supposed to get rid of every symbol the Alt-right (or whatever the current euphemism is for racist is), decides to co-opt for their perverse purposes? Deal with the people and their behavior and the statues will become as irrelevant as they were before the recent events... You see it is much easier to tear down a statue and think you've actually accomplished something. @Cynique, what do you think tearing the statues will accomplish? As far as Andy Young's statement. I tend to listen more carefully to people like you and him. You've lived longer and experienced more. Wisdom is not valued very much in our youth/celebrity obsessed culture, but it means something to me. Young said most of the issues we are dealing with are due to poverty. Since I have been saying this for as long as this forum has existed, you know I agree with this. However unlike Young I think the Klan has to be denounced. But I think the criminals on Wall Street need to be denounced even more, as they have caused far more damage than the Klan ever will and are probably instrumental in the resurgence of overt racist attitudes and the rise of 45. @Del, I'm not sure what I misinterpreted. You made a declarative statement; "Sally Hemmings had Jefferson free her son." This was followed by what I can only assume is a conclusion you drew as a result; "So tge relationship may have been more nuanced." Tell me, what did I misinterpret from what you wrote? @Mel Hopkins, I don't know if she had any personal trauma directly related to the flag. I did not probe, but I immediately understood. In fact that is what prompted me to write this message. I don't mean to suggest that I don't understand the power of symbols like flags. In the days immediately after 9-11, I flew an American flag from my car. As much as I have to say against the ills of this country, all of that was put aside for a few moments because we, as a nation, was in immediate danger. The flag was a overt show of solidarity. It seems a bit much thinking about it now... But I tell that story because the flag, like those statues only have the meaning we give it, and those meanings change, based upon the people. Again, change the people and the meaning of the symbols change as well.

I was teasing you Del. I did not expect you to prove of disprove what I wrote. Genetics is indeed a complex subject and I don't know much more than Pioneer. I would consider my job done if he brought into the fact there was just one race. I used to teach punnet square to adult learners to help them get their GED. I usually used Sickle Cell as an example. Carriers of the trait are less likely to get Malaria, than people without it, but Pioneer would consider that "weak" since the trait is recessive? Did I explain your position correctly @Pioneer1?

It is hard to debate this without a comon framework. You believe there are several races. The fact is there is only one. The fact you can have more in common, genetically, with a so called white person than you do with anone on this board does not give you pause to reconsider your position. The fact that the determination of one's race is purely subjective does not mean anything to you either. Surely there is nothing I can say to you that will convince you otherwise...youngin'

100% agreement huh. That is far better than even I expected. My job here is done.

@Del, do you believe you are senior to Pioneer or was the "young" comment a subtle dig? I won't even address the keeping him in line part. I'm just pointing out the subtle aggression you express toward him, that I was referenced in the other conversation. Hmm... did you also select the word "young," given the recent controversial remarks made by Andy Young? Nah you probably did not go that deep.

Cynique there is nothing that you wrote that offended me. You believe all poor white people are racist and therefore undeserving of sympathy. I disagree. You believe a 43 year old man having sex with a 13 child that he owns is not rape. I disagree. You believe that America has treated has Black people terribly historically and well as currently and worse than poor whites. I agree. @Del, you can call the relationship "naused," because Jefferson freed his own child. Again it was a horrible situation that Sally, like all enslaved people, did what they could to make the best of a f--ked up situation. Man, y'all willing to condemn all poor white people, but a rich a rich and powerful white man who has sex with a child he owns is in a "nuanced" relationship with his "mistress." But I understand, this is what people have always done; venerate the wealthy devils and trash the poor people. I'm just surprised to see you two doing it. As far as the "vague" things that we should be doing rather than worrying about statues. You mean to tell me you can't think of anything Cynque? Half the stuff we talk about here is more important that some stupid statue; from climate change; wealth inequality; mass incarceration, shitty schools, 45... Stop playing Here is a video of Andy Young (wow he has been out of the spotlight so long I did not even recognize him) talking about his comments about Charlottesville. When I searched for this video there was no shortage of other video eviscerating Young for these comments.

This comments was posted on Facebook. I wonder what steps I would need to take to get people to comment here rather on Facebook? Maybe I'll try asking....

Pioneer repeating a faulty statement will not make it true. Look up punnet squares for an explanation. Below is an example. Lets replace "disorder" with "blue eyes." In the example below neither parent has blue eyes, but the both carry the recessive trait (lowercase a). There offspring would a 50% change of carrying the trait for blue eyes, but they would not have blue eyes. 25% would not carry the trait and could not have a blue eye child, and 25% would have blue eyes. Now these are probabilities, so at the risk of running a foul of the probability po-po (i.e. @Delano), I will say that it is possible for these parents to have 10 kids all with blue eyes. It is highly unlikely but it is possible. Now if you want to call blue eyes weaker, as if they are inherently inferior than brown eyes, go ahead but know that is not what dominantinant means here. Did you not learn this in high school? Most human characteristics are far more complex and can not be explained with punnett squares.

Cynique, I was expressing sympathy for poor white people. You threw in a bunch of other adjectives "gun totin, mean-spirited , hate-filled poor whites" that had nothing to do with the thought I expressed. Obviously no one would have sympathy for kinds or people of any color. Let's be clear: Hemmings was not a "kept woman" she was property. As a slave Hemings could be dragged around the western world by Jefferson, a man 30 years her senior, for his sexual delight, whether Sally liked it or not. Sally may have had privileges denied her sisters working the fields, but like them Sally had no choice. She had to submit to Thomas' sexual desires whether she liked it or not. The pedophile may have started raping Sally when she was 13 years old. Cynique, come on, it is a given we both recognize Black people, of all classes, have suffered far longer and harder than even poor white people. That goes without saying. Still if we can't have sympathy for each other in this country, we won't have a country much longer... which is they way we are headed. If we don't care what other what "misguided ignorance" festers in our midst, we all stand to suffer as a result. I have not watched TV in a few days so I have not heard Young's statements. I'm sure the "news" stations are riding it for all it is worth. Pioneer, it is funny you'd mentioned the segregated north. I told my cousin during the same conversation that I grew up in a segregated neighborhood, and did not attend school with a single white person until I was in high school. If I went to my neighborhood high school I probably would not have run into too many there. My teachers however were all white, virtually all Jewish. I told her I remember the first time I spoke to a white person my own age, during a trip to visit a cousin who lived in CT. She was surprised to learn this because she always saw images of NY being a very diverse place--it is but New York's neighborhoods are very stratified by not just race but culture. These statues mean nothing to most people. These are the things birds crap on in city parks. We give these things more meaning that they deserve and are distractions from the things that really matter. But again if we are gonna get bent out of shape about an old battle flag, we really need to get bend out of shape about the starts and strips. I'm not calling for destoying the flag but helping to make sure the damn thing actually means something we can be proud of, something we'd actually want to salute.

@Cynique, I sense you'd stop short of calling Jefferson's relationship with Sally "rape." Do you think they were in love? What else would you call a man having sex with someone he owned? Washington and Jefferson were just as treasonous as Lee and Stonewall. They rebelled against the British. Depending on your perspective Washington was a traitor or a freedom fighter. The same could be said for Jefferson Davis. Davis' problem was that he was on the losing end. If the South won, George Washington statues would be coming down all over the North. I'm glad Jackson's mug is being removed from the $20. He truly was a devil--even for his day. Too bad paper currency is going the way of the horse draw carriage; the impact of seeing Tubman's face regularly will not be nearly as impactful as seeing the faces of white men for centuries on our currency I too am sympathetic to poor whites, I won't begrudge Young or anyone else for that sentiment. Poor white don't have the power to oppress anyone. They are the tools of the oppressor. Poor whites were literally canon fodder during the Civil War dying for rich white folks! They were so completely brainwashed that over 150 years later many of them worship the leaders of their oppression. Perhaps is they dealt with the truth of what they were put through, they'd lose their collective minds 45 is about to send 1,000's more of hie white supporters into the middle east again--many of them will return in body bags. The man lied about his plans for the middle east, but poor whites and Black will pay the ultimate price.

I got gypped! Del, I'm not disappointed that I made the trek, but i was not nearly the event I expected it to be. First I'm glad I got the glasses. I actually moved a small table and chair and worked on my website while waiting in line. While the moon took progressively larger and larger bites out of the sun it was still quote bright outside. If I did not have the glasses I would not have been able to see any of this. In fact, by the time I got settled and looked up at the eclipse it was well under way. Even when the Sun was almost completely blocked by the moon, you needed the glasses to look at it. Now here is when I got gypped. At the instance of totality a cloud blocked the event! I took my glasses off saw the ring ring around the Sun and then it disappeared behind a cloud! It never got as dark as I expected. I was like dusk. I could see Sirius and it did look like the sun had dropped behind the horizon in all directions. But this was not something pronounced and I would not have noticed this unless I knew to look for it. The temperature dropped quite a bit, but that was it. It was not a life altering event that way it was for so many. The images below is of my car when the sun was eclipsed at least 35% the photo on the right was during totality. Again at this point the sun was obscured by both the moon and clouds :-( This shot was taken in Clemson SC, not too far from the university right on the path of totality. The next eclipse falls on my birthday in 2024. I'll probably travel to that one too. ;-)

Living in NY City I can't recall ever seeing the confederate flag (technically, the battle flag of Northern Virginia) flying. Here in the south, where I am now, I see one all the time. The flag is obviously a course of pride for many. The nostalgic reverence is understandably stronger in the the south that it is in the North. Streets are named after confederate generals and a great many things are named after Jefferson Davis including many schools. It is still part of the MIssissippi state flag and only recently removed from Georgia's Sure some white folks, perhaps most, see the flag as a source of white pride, with little knowledge of the history of the flag. Of course many of these people are racist. I was in ATL yesterday and spent the day with a cousin from NC. She told me when she was younger if they saw an American Flag you knew not to cross that person's yard. For her the American flag was a symbol of racism. Of course this make sense. Black people were enslaved under the American Flag long before the confederate flag was designed and flown. It is the same reason many Black people are suspicious of the police and courts of law; while white folks are confident these institutions will protect them. There is even talk of removing the carving, which honors General Robert E. Lee, General “Stonewall” Jackson, and President of the Confederacy Jefferson Davis from the face off Stone Mountain. Stone mountain the site of Klan rallies attracts millions of visitors a year, many of them Black, from all over the country. Don't try to get near the place during the 4th of July. While we are at it why not call for ripping Washington and Jefferson down from Mount Rushmore? They both owned slaves and we know Jefferson raped at least one of his. Tearing down statues is not going to change the minds of racists, in fact it will give them something to rally behind and embolden them. I think tearing down the statues removing flags, like getting rid of the word nigger, is a waste of energy, money and time. The money can be better used educating people so that they are not ignorant enough to become racist. Maybe they'll then recognize who their real enemy is.

Man there's a lot going on in this thread. I see rereading it now that I missed quite a bit. Del I missed your question about finding a specific incident when you verbally attacked pioneer. Did I use the word verbally attack? if I did that was not the right description; maybe snide remark or something like that but it was rather base and unnecessary. If I come across one of the statements I'll share it, but you'll probably do it again and I'll point it out at that time. You brought up the probability statement again that I made which you keep saying it was wrong. what I said was not wrong it was a rather basic idea rather than entertain the idea that you did not understand what I wrote, or seek clarification you insisted that I was wrong. But it's not worth rehashing that argument. Del the differences that you and Pioneer may have are incidental compared to the similarity that I've described. Again your participation here is a tremendous similarity. For example, a significant portion of our population did not vote in the last presidential election. One could puy the people that voted into one group, regardless of who they voted for, and call them "voters." The other group who decided not to vote or even register to vote could be added to a group called "non-voters." People who cast votes share common traits. One of them could be as simple as understanding the importance of casting a vote. Who they voted for may not be as important as the fact that they cast the vote. Delano you and Pioneer voters.

Pioneer when you say one race is "genetically weaker" than the other, you are actually saying one race is inferior than the other-- that is what your statement means. But again, since there is only one race the premise of the statement is flawed anyway. The chart showing the different traits as being dominant or recessive does not mean stronger or weaker it just indicates how the traits are inherited. For example, an order for child to be born with blue eyes both parents have to have blue eyes or the trait for it.

@Pioneer1, my quote, "The God we seek is within each of us, all matter, and all time." Is basically my way of saying God permeates everything. Of course we are all unique and have different abilities. Most of these abilities have more or less value depending upon when you lived. Being able to throw ball throw a hoop was not a valuable skill 100 years ago. The statements was not intended to to mean what you've described.

@Delano that dance crowd is not pioneers's scene, so I doubt you'll find common ground there. I've heard variations of Pioneers sentiments expressed by many Black men over the years.

I'm right in path of totality, Clemson, SC. But I don't have those glasses. I waited too late to try to get them. I'm in a local library where they will begin giving some away at 1 p.m. people have been lining up since 9:00! I refuse to wait in a line that long for anything short of something that will save my life. I'll get on the line around 12:30 and hope for the best... Since I'm in the path, I can look at the total eclipse without eye protection. The weather looks perfect so far.

He has a new book coming out (Sept 2017) The Most Defining Moments in Black History According to Dick Gregory May he rest RIP

Pioneer I agree with you about the government, but keep in mind the government is run by people. Right now those people should be doing a much better job. Indeed they will have to if this nation is going to last more than a coupe hundred years. Del are you saying 45's divisiveness will ultimately unify people? You may be right--at least I hope you are... Del you may have been away from being around large numbers of Black people too long, while i don't agree with Pioneer on everything. I understand where he is coming from. Ya'll are not that dissimilar. One similarity worth exploring is why you both choose to participate here. Your time is valuable and you two can be doing anything else, but you have decided to provide this forum with the benefit of your insight and perspectives. Why?