Troy

Bookfan I see our brains work simmiliarly. I'll look into to see what the numbers actually mean and if it makes sense to (or even if it is possible to) change the the rankings as you suggest. Initially, I tried to carry over the rankings over from the previous board. Those ranking were based upon the number of posts. However, ABM or Cynique would blow Thumper out of the water in every quantitative measure that I have access to. Cynique your comment especially the last line was cyniquelly on point.

I wonder of Linda ever finished all these book in 90 days.

Hey Cynique is that 3 out of 4 or 5 star? Have you read the other installments. How does this one compare?

In a recent interview published here on AALBC.com MacArthur Genius fellow winning author Edwidge Danticat said she was reading Dinaw Mengestu’s new book, “How to Read the Air.” Dinaw Mengestu was born in Addis Ababa, Ethiopia, in 1978. He is the recipient of a fellowship in fiction from the New York Foundation for the Arts and a Lannan Literary Award, and received a "5 under 35" Award from the National Book Foundation. His first novel, "The Beautiful Things That Heaven Bears", was named a New York Times Notable Book and awarded the Guardian First Book Award and the Los Angeles Times Art Seidenbaum Award for First Fiction, among numerous other honors...

Cynique it is interesting that you would conclude that I "deplore" street lit based upon the quote you supplied. I'll comment more about this in another post. I guess we beat a dead horse here... By the way 39 Steps was a british thriller the play was a comedy. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rW97dS7_h54 12 Angry Men was a did start out on 12 but I believe it was a movie before it was a play. In any case I see you'll find a problem with any example I provide even through there are many other examples.

I vote for the After Party! I thought the "fanatical Christians" were in the deomcratic party Some of the most racist people I've ever met were liberals in the democratic party. "Lesser of two evils" sounds like choosing death by lethal injection over death by decapitation. Is not Chi-town the poster child from political corruption? They say "Black Tea" is good for you... so a Black Tea Party can't be too bad

Cynique! Hitchcock's The 39 Steps and the courtroom drama 12 Angry Men, are couple of the successful example of Broadway plays derived from original motion pictures -- please, cry uncle!!! I also acknowledged that a play and a film are as different as A & B, no need to belabor that point. While I realize your point: "And in light of your desire to give the screen and the stage the same props, maybe you should re-think your objection to street lit enjoying more acclaim than quality fiction. How about giving the hack writers an "E" for effort." was said in jest. But i would like to point out that; (1) I never made such an objection, and (2) the statement if flawed in that it assumes Street Lit can not be "quality" fiction. ----------- The crux of our disagreement I believe is illustrated by your point: "you can't be true to your craft when you are catering to a mass audience" Do you think the Godfather I, arguably one of the top films of all time, was counter productive? Sure the film and the novel are different, but both have artistic merit and one could easily argue that the film based upon Puzzo's novel has even more artistic merit than the source material. The Godfather is a commercially successful film with artistic merit. But again creating a Godfather I caliber film is really hard. As much as I support books and complain about TV. I don't hold one over the other as superior when it comes to artistic expression. There was a time, indeed for most of modern man's existence, when neither format was available. Do you think art did not exist? Do you think art back then was of "lower quality" that what we have today? Sure I may have a personal preference for an specific form of artistic expression over another but that does not mean I believe it is "better" than I format I prefer.

Cynique Broadway plays have been adapted from every concieveable source: Here is another example; Mel Brooks' The Producers was a film that was converted into a Broadway musical. You are just going to have to conceed this point. Also, I agree with you motion picture are two different things. But again, I don't hold one over the other. They are just different forms of art and when done well both can be equally compelling. Cynique maybe you have not been to a Broadway play recently. It has become very commercial, a tourist attraction for bus loads of overweight, camera totting out of towners and their ill behaved children. I went to see A Raisin in the Sun on Broadway. Puff Daddy was in the lead role (which should tell you something). People we noisily eating, laughing at inappropriate times, talking back to the characters, it was a mess. It was the kind of behavior one has unfortunately had to become accustomed to in some the movie theaters (and you know what I mean). As far as movies go I've seen serious film at the Mayseles (in Harlem), IFC in (Greenwich Village), and other views (including my own). The movies (often include a discussion with the film maker) are attended by serious, intelligent, informed movie folks. Needless to say, far better behaved than patrons of the more expensive Broadway play. So I'll have to have a rare disagreement with you Cynique, regarding the relative elitism on Film versus theater. Carey man, I don't know what do say to you. I'm trying to hold a serious conversation and you are talking about guys jumping "out a window (Butt naked) to see if he can fly". Is this really going to be the foundation of your conversation? Ok I'll clarify, Most critical reviews (professional or otherwise, including my own) of Tyler's FCG film were more negative than positive. Virtually all that I've read from the adaptation of Ntozakes work lacking. Again I agree with this assessmentSome of these critics found Tyler's film to be an example of Male bashing. I disagree on this point.I commend Perry for given it the ole college try. I don't really recall any other reviewers condemning Perry on the attempt -- just the outcomeAs far as just regular folk, I've spoken to online and off, the reviews were mixed but mostly positive, some of them strongly positive.Again, Tyler had to know, based upon the source material, that this was not going to be a block buster film. I believe he did everything within his ability to make it a commercial success. He loading the film with popular and talented actors. All he was missing was Halley Berry and Queen Latifah. One could argue the effort to make the film a commercial success is counter to making it an artistic one. Again i reject this notion on very level. It can be done, it is just hard.

May as well include Kevin's book. The BIG Black Lie: How I Learned The Truth About The Democrat Party

Chris and your point is....? This is all schtick. There is nothing new here. We see it on both sides. At least Kevin freely admits what he is all about. I ain't made at him. Of course if you look under the covers you see a Black man who epitomizes many of the stereo types he eschews. Fathered four kids (at least) and not married to their mothers. But a Christian nonetheless. Democrats demonize the Tea Party as white racists, the same tactic used to demonize the Republican party to keep Black people as Democrats. When it comes to politics, 21st century Black Americans are perhaps the most easily manipulated people to walk the earth. Who else would so slavishly support one party, with nothing to show for it and our situation progressively worse getting, year over year, for the last half century!?. It seems white folks are getting upset too. At least some of them are organizing and trying to do something about it. As opposed to simply dismissing them was racists, maybe there is some for us to learn here -- what do you think?

Carey regarding your comment: "...and sometimes, the risk of that reaction is not worth the reward..." Carey it is up to the person engaging in the activity to make that determination. The reason I commend Perry is that he tried. Haven't you ever done something that others thought was a waste of time, but you went ahead a did it anyway? Did you ever succeed? Did it not feel good? Did you fail, but felt good inside that you at least tried? Without getting too preachy here MOST people are unhappy because they've wasted their lives never trying any thing risky, or hard -- even if that thing was as fundamental to their own happiness as pursuing their passion. In fact ,some people don't even have a clue WHAT there passion is, 'cause they perceive even that level of self exploration as impossible. So I would augment Cynique's assessment of my perspective as so; Troy speaks as a person who sees unlimited possibilities. Cynique, as far as screen play that was made into a movie and put on Broadway there are many (at least several). Off the top of my head, I can think of the Lion King one of Disney highest grossing films. Someone decided to turn it into a play and it has been on Broadway and many other cities ever since. Conversely the Motion Picture A Soldiers Story was an excellent adaption of Charles Fuller's play A Soldiers Play. These are examples where I suspect you would agree that the results were quite good. Actually if you ignored the professional critics MOST people believe Tyler Perry did good job! (Carey this alone is sufficient to nullify your argument). To be clear: I never said A was equal to or equivalent to B. Of course they are different. However I don't consider either form of art superior to the other. We obviously disagree on whether this particular A (Ntozake's choreopoem) should be made into B (Tyler's film). Carey and Cynique it sounds like you believe Tyler should have left this one alone. However do you believe this is true for the general case -- that no staged work should be ported to the big screen? Or vice-versa? If so we'd have to disagree about that too.

Cynique, "You rarely here of a movie being made into a play"; In this case Cynique I'd have to question what you are hearing. Not only are films being turned into stage plays TV programs are as well. You can check the numerous offerings currently on Broadway to see what I mean. One could make a very strong case that MOST of what is on the "stage" today is for the great unwashed. Again, most of what you see on Broadway, right now, would serve as a perfect example. Your comment; "...FGC losing its artistic integrity when it was sacrificed on the altar of mass appeal." makes it sound as it something can not have mass appeal and retain artistic integrity. Now that may not have been your intent, and if may be true for the Tyler's FCG case; but I do not think artistic integrity and mass appeal are mutually exclusive -- just really difficult. We have; A: an stage based performance by Ntozake Shange that was not designed for mass appeal. B: A major motion picture, based upon A:, designed for mass appeal. The process of going from A: to B: , we all agree is very hard. Some would argue that it is so difficult, that it should not even be attempted. I vehemently disagree with this point on every level. Flight is really hard, but fortunately many people had the balls to try it; until someone succeeded. Today flight is so "easy" that it is taken for granted. But that does not mean tragic outcomes will never occur. Again I commend Tyler Perry for trying; because it shows the man has balls to do something that so many believe is possible. Indeed it is this attitude that has placed him in the position that he is in today. Maybe he did not do so well going from A: to B: in this case, but others will learn from his mistakes and improve upon Perry's efforts. This is how progress occurs. @Kat what up doc?

Carey, nice meaty comments from your Blog (I presume). A few of my comments based upon what you just posted: The ONLY reason for Ntozake's book in on any bestseller's list (including #1 on my lastest list) is because of Perry's film. The idea that Beloved only belongs on the page and FCG only belongs on the stage is silly. It is just difficult to do. Indeed, making ANY good film a difficult. I think the argument that "predictability also gets old" is flawed. Sure the predictability may get old for current consumers, but as someone once said "There's a sucker born everyday" I'm not aware of any other film version of FCG, other than the public TV version a couple of decades ago. We never heard so much about that or any other version because 20 years ago the public never had a voice the way it does today with the Internet I'm defintely one of the folks who "appreciate his [Tyler Perry's] effort".

John H, considering Tyler Perry is not a woman and the bulk of the film For Colored Girls is Perry's own work; I find your comment: "...is anything they can learn about how things look from the standpoint of the women.", interesting. I agree, most of the men griping about this particular flick need to take a chill pill.

Carey I watched the damn movie, and all my previous comments stand: http://aalbc.it/FCGimho

"When I see Obama overseas getting pimpslapped in Seoul I realize he ain't got a clue." Regardless of what one may think about Obama's foreign policy; that is just priceless prose Chris.

Well I saw For Colored Girls last night. For Carey's benefit every comment that ever made about the movie stands. Actually I could have said that before I saw the movie because I never previously offered an opinion of the film itself, just commentary on the debate and on the comments of others. The film itself was OK. I'd give it 2 stars out of five. One tremendous plus was For Colored Girls was an excellent showcase of some of the best or most popular Black actresses working today. I enjoyed Thandie, though her accent grated on my nerves. Even the secondary males characters were quite good. Loretta Divnine's faux beau was perfectly cast and Kimberly Elise's baby daddy was convincing as well. I do not think it was a male bashing film. If anything, women could make a much better case for being offended. But I won’t presume to speak for the Sisters in this case -- as very few I spoken with seem to mind. My biggest complaint about the flick was that Ntozake's poetry seems to have been shoehorned into the film. The movie seemed disjointed during the transition the from dialog to the soliloquies. If you were unfamiliar with the original play, you would have asked yourself, “what the heck is this character talking about” at least until you became accustomed to the technique. Maybe if the background was darkened and a spot light was put on the character while they were reciting Ntozake's work (sort of the way they do during Shakespearean plays), that may have helped. The film was also set in the present day but based upon a 40 year old work. The mismatch was evident in the film. The days of back alley abortions in New York City are a thing of the past. Similarly the "Low Down" man being converted into "Down Low" Brother was a liberty that was taken purely for dramatic effect -- a Tyler Perry trademark. Overall I think the film would have worked better if Tyler simply rewrote the work entirely -- basically starting from scratch using updated, modern material. Tyler could have even engaged Ntozake and other poets create the new material. Alternatively, he could have set the flick in the 70's, but I think fresh material would have worked best. For Colored Girls work represents a film which goes beyond the coonin’ and buffoonin’ for which Tyler is constantly accused of producing. This plus his ability to corral a large stable of talent bodes well for future work. Work that I’m looking forward to seeing.

Yeah, this made me laugh too -- even the second time I read it...

As usual an interesting editorial Cynique. I think Barack, once his presidency is over and they've renamed a gazilion schools and avenues after him will go down in history as a trailblazing, leader, a great man. History, I suspect, will be kind to Tyler too. Universal respect and adulation right now, during their prime, or even life times will be difficult. But is that not the case with Black people in general? Uber-successful Black people have it even worse. MLK and Malcolm were very controversial figures, in the Black community, during their lives. It was not until years after they were murdered that they were universally respected. Condi, Clarence and Colin, despite fantastic levels of success, but any measure, are regularly lambasted by black folks. Billionaires Bob Johnson, and Oprah can';t seems to win universal love from black folks either. They say if you ain't got anyone hatin' on you, then you ain't doing shit. Looks like Tyler and Barack are doing plenty...of shit.

That is exactly what I'm saying John. Your point about awareness of the "Classics" is unfortunately echoed by educators all over the country. Tyler's potential is limitless. As you mentioned Tyler owns the means of production -- and that is a very big deal. He has the ability to produce films that no one else can or will. For Colored Girls is just one example. He is essentially the lone voice when it comes to making films with predominately Black cast telling "Black" stories. As a result, Tyler Perry he is going to be subject to far more criticism that a majority film maker because his films mean so much to our community. And of course this is a difficult role for any person. Tyler has to produce films that are both commercially viable, and that tell our stories, all within the confines of his ability. As his ability and resources improve, so should his product. Indeed if he gives other people opportunities to avail themselves of his resources, with a modicum of consciousness, who knows what great work will come out of Atlanta in the near future.

Carey, when you went to see For Colored Girls, how did you make the decision to select this flick? Beyond that I no longer had the energy or time to defend every comment of mine that you have distorted for you own purposes. For example, I did not say Ealy's comments have no merit (otherwise I would not have bothered to read them myself), I was simply stating that he comments were biased by virtue of the fact that he was in the film. He would have very little incentive to say anything against the film considering that it is still in theaters and Tyler paid him to be in it. This point should be profoundly obvious. Therefore it clear that we can't have a meaningful discussion about the film. If you spent less time tying to poke holes in my words, and put more effort into understanding what I'm trying to communicate, we might have a meaningful exchange of ideas.

John H great post and welcome! I'm still laughing at the quote “...wrung the beauty and truth out of the original in almost every possible way...” The "peculiar condescension" you refer to is evident in every aspect of our culture. However I think the "hate" is mis-directed at Tyler, his work and the people who love it so much. The issue is multifaceted but can be, in my mind, summed up as follows: I truly believe the level of education, and literacy has adversely impacted not only our ability to produce great work but our ability to consume or even recognize it! What little remaining "high brow" music, literature, film that is produced today is given such dismal support (read: purchased), that it can't survive on its own merit, and is left to eek out an exisitence on the largess of universities, and a decreasing number of not-for-profits. This is not solely a Black thing; it is cultural. Pee-Wee Herman, the Addams family and everything Disney is on Broadway, television has been all but taken over by "Reality TV", and Jazz is a dying art form taken over by teenagers rhyming over samples of music produced by real musicians a generation before. Even books like the Coldest Winter Ever (all due respective to Sista Soulja) are being called great literature. Tyler's success (all due respect to him too) is a symptom of a much larger problem. While the mention of your book was subtle (appreciate you not posting just a flagrant commercial), I'll take the liberty of providing more information about your book. Faces in the Mirror: Oscar Micheaux & Spike Lee by John R. Howard http://aalbc.it/facesin

All I apologize when I made my comments last night I completely missed the second page of the conversation. That said my original comments stand PLUS. Carey, as I said I've read a lot of reviews -- including your emotion fueled rants. I even read Michael Ealy's comments. But Michael was a star in the film and clearly his comments are biased. Did expect Ealy to have ANYTHING bad to day about the film? Ealy points out that "Hill Harper was one good man". Sheesh he was the ONLY good, man and one can even argue that, by the way he questioned the rape victim. Further, the male characters were manufactured by Tyler. Which is one reason I agree with Kola that men should have been left out... But alas that is seemingly all Tyler knows how to do - pit evil men against Christian women. "To a boy with a hammer all the world is a nail".

Carey as I suspected, your font choice has no impact on your argument. Are you trying to suggest that my watching virtually all of Tyler previous films has no bearing on this one? Are there no similarities, no indication of his "creative" touch? Are you saying that the trailers, the scores of reviews I've read, actor interviews (several of which I've published) including conversations with Ntozake herself, mean nothing? I also saw at least two performances of the Stage play as well as the PBS specials from back in the day. No I did not see this film, but that does not mean that I can not comment on the portions of which that I'm aware. Indeed, two people who have actually SEEN the movie will come away with very different reactions. People will remember different things, and what they remember will be remembered differently. You might also note that none of my comments have anything to do with specifics from the flick. I've asked questions, based my comments on information provided by others and said from the outset I had not seen the film. In fact the stuff you are accusing me of I never stated. I never accused Tyler of man bashing -- you manufactured that story. Carey please answer one simple question: When you went to see For Colored Girls, how did you make the decision to select this flick?

...ah, this is reminenscent of the good 'ole days at thumper's Corner... Carey take a deep breath and keep in mind increasing the font size of your posts will not strengthen your argument. One question begs asking off the top; what makes your comments about the movie valid and those of the others I've heard, particularly those of professional reviewers, "garbage"? Why can't someone voice an opinion abut a movie they've never seen, once they know what it is about? After seening my first snuff film; I know I don't want to see any more - I don't care how well it is done or what the reviewers have to say. The same pretty much goes for Tyler Perry flicks. Tyler has a formula. Which works for a lot of people and that is cool. Formulas work and are indeed necessary for romance novels and street fiction; stray too much from the script and you risk losing an audience. Right now if someone wants to go to the theater and see a film with more than two Black people in it, then Tyler Perry flicks are the only game in town. This, more than anything, else is the real problem: There is a profound lack of variety and volume of major motions pictures with majoirty Black casts. Imagine a world in which all the books, with Black characters, in it were in the street fiction genre. Do you think people would complain more or less? Back to Perry's Film: I actually agree with Kola (I sure it is snowing on hell right about now) in that men should not have been in the flick at all or had very minimal roles. But that would have made the flick even more difficult to pull off; Given the Perry MO. As I suspected the box office take, opening weekend, For Colored Girls was the 2nd lowest of any Perry flick and is on track to be one of his lowest grossing movies. It would be interesting to know how much each in the star studded cast was paid to do do the flick But fear not I'm sure the 2011 release of Madeas Big Happy Family will greatly enrich Perry coffers.